Browns looking at WR trade ?

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@topdawg31 said:

There will be 100 WR on the waiver wire Saturday, I bet at least one or two are better than what is on our roster. Since we have first crack at the waiver wire, why would we waste a draft pick on somebody that will probably get cut on Saturday anyway. Just sit back and wait.

There is a large difference between "getting someone who is better than what we currently have" and "getting a difference maker".

Landry is an athletic freak. He's not a johnny come lately waiver wire addition.

I dont see how the two can be compared. Surrounding Kizer with talent is going to help his growth.

Tour2ma

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

Surrounding Kizer with talent is going to help his growth.

I'm going to take issue with that... hear me out...

Biggest deficiency I've seen in Kizer, and maybe the only one, is that he is not reading the D post-snap, but rather locking onto his pre-snap primary.
The more success he has playing QB the wrong way, the more it is reinforced.
The better his receiving corps, the more success he will have playing the wrong way... I've already seen Derek Anderson.

By the above I am not saying our Corps should be talentless. We need route runners with good hands. The danger in excessive receiving talent is enabling QB play that is not sound fundamentally.

calfoxwc

Hmm. Surround your qb with mediocre wide receivers... and that helps his development.......

like, he doesn't have anybody to throw to, so he ...grows ...as a qb.....

nope. not seein it... probably just me.

TexasAg1969

@tour2ma said:

I'm going to take issue with that... hear me out...

Biggest deficiency I've seen in Kizer, and maybe the only one, is that he is not reading the D post-snap, but rather locking onto his pre-snap primary.

The more success he has playing QB the wrong way, the more it is reinforced.

The better his receiving corps, the more success he will have playing the wrong way... I've already seen Derek Anderson.

By the above I am not saying our Corps should be talentless. We need route runners with good hands. The danger in excessive receiving talent is enabling QB play that is not sound fundamentally.

I'm going to rewatch it today while recording so I can look in more detail. But I do recall from just first viewing on the web (without being able to replay in detail) that multiple times he made a read and changed the play pre-snap. I know that's different from post-snap, but encouraging nonetheless. I do know I hope our WR corps can get open AND be capable of bailing him out on off-target throws. The great ones do that and make it look easy.

Tour2ma

I've seen ample evidence of pre-snap reading as well. Problem is I've never seen him come off his pre-snap.

No better example than his great throw to Coleman after scrambling to his left. He locked on Coleman immediately and never came off him... and he got away with it. Great result... terrible QB play.

@calfoxwc said:

Hmm. Surround your qb with mediocre wide receivers... and that helps his development....... like, he doesn't have anybody to throw to, so he ...grows ...as a qb.....

nope. not seein it... probably just me.

lol... nah, you'll have plenty of company.... I know this one is "out there"... even for me.

But it would help if y'all at least stick to the scenario I presented...

The Gipper

I don't like this "cut them all at once" policy. There should be some intitial cuts made now. That way, if someone is available, you can pick them up, get them into the lineup in the final preseason game, and get them into your system a bit. Now, all cuts being made only after the last preseason game means that a new team picking up a guy must inculcate them into their system only during the regular season. Bad policy imo.

Tour2ma

Agree, Gip... just doesn't seem to be in keeping with maximizing the league's talent level and strengthening the lesser teams.

Plus in the past waiver wire action has been a great source of fan discussion. This year? Not so much....

The Gipper

@tour2ma said:

Agree, Gip... just doesn't seem to be in keeping with maximizing the league's talent level and strengthening the lesser teams.

Plus in the past waiver wire action has been a great source of fan discussion. This year? Not so much....

Well...it probably WILL be once they end up making cuts. Right now, there is not much to discuss. Browns did let go of a couple of players: Des Bryant (probably so that he COULD get picked up by another team and get going with their system). Who else? And Browns did pick up at least one guy...another Bryant...the DB. Anyone else?

TexasAg1969

@tour2ma said:

Plus in the past waiver wire action has been a great source of fan discussion. This year? Not so much....

I think the change on when it is mandatory to drop players has had a major impact on the waiver wire and the discussions here.

Tour2ma

@the-gipper said:

Well...it probably WILL be once they end up making cuts. Right now, there is not much to discuss. Browns did let go of a couple of players: Des Bryant (probably so that he COULD get picked up by another team and get going with their system). Who else? And Browns did pick up at least one guy...another Bryant...the DB. Anyone else?

Not well expressed by me, but the thought was that in the past there were weeks of buzz around the waiver wire and roster moves with a fresh wave coming weekly.

This year, yes, there will be "buzz", but it's going to be compressed into 24 hours.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@tour2ma said:

I'm going to take issue with that... hear me out...

Biggest deficiency I've seen in Kizer, and maybe the only one, is that he is not reading the D post-snap, but rather locking onto his pre-snap primary.

The more success he has playing QB the wrong way, the more it is reinforced.

The better his receiving corps, the more success he will have playing the wrong way... I've already seen Derek Anderson.

By the above I am not saying our Corps should be talentless. We need route runners with good hands. The danger in excessive receiving talent is enabling QB play that is not sound fundamentally.

I'd be more inclined to agree if I saw anything from Kizer that would indicate he plays "the wrong way". He's showing a ton of plus traits - in the physical, mechanical and mental aspects.

He does lock onto reads at times, but he's a rookie and that will happen. He's also shown an ability to move through his progressions at times as well, so I'm not worried about him getting locked into bad habits.

I was actually against adding a receiver, but after this week's preseason game I'm all for adding a sure handed athletic talent. Kizer has the arm talent and poise to be something fun, but watching him deliver strikes to Britt and the others and seeing them hit the turf was supremely depressing.

Tour2ma

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

He's also shown an ability to move through his progressions at times as well,

TC, I honestly have not seen it... not even a hint of it... so if you have a particular play in mind, please let me know.

Everything else I agree with... so he has a chance... but that last step is a big one.

One factor I may have overlooked completely is his being fueled by a desire to make Brian Kelly look like the ass many of us think he is. The way Kizer is now talking in glowing terms about his growing relationship with Hue gave rise to the thought of this possible "incentive".

Mike H

Except most plays are designed to go to a primary target, or a secondary target, and most plays in the NFL do not have time to develop into tertiary reads.

Maybe think about that, and then you would see him playing the position correctly.

There were a handful of pretty bad plays he had during the first two weeks where he "locked in" and sat in the pocket too long and didn't know where to go with the ball. Those were less frequent in Week 3. That's called progress.

Ibleedbrown

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2017/8/28/16211560/browns-could-be-doing-homework-on-trading-for-wr

Recent article on the matter. Not much said in it that hasn't already been said here.

jrb12711

@tour2ma said:

TC, I honestly have not seen it... not even a hint of it... so if you have a particular play in mind, please let me know.

Everything else I agree with... so he has a chance... but that last step is a big one.

One factor I may have overlooked completely is his being fueled by a desire to make Brian Kelly look like the ass many of us think he is. The way Kizer is now talking in glowing terms about his growing relationship with Hue gave rise to the thought of this possible "incentive".

I'm not good at finding videos to back myself up, but being at the Bucs game I can tell you he did do this at least 2-3 times. There's no doubt he locked onto guys as well, though. He moved up in the pocket extremely well on two occasions (to include the beautiful throw to Coleman) that I was really impressed by as well.

In regards to the WR trade, FWIW local news down here have directly quoted Adam Gase in saying that Jarvis Landry would not be moved by the Dolphins.

Tour2ma

@mike-h said:

Except most plays are designed to go to a primary target, or a secondary target, and most plays in the NFL do not have time to develop into tertiary reads. Maybe think about that, and then you would see him playing the position correctly.

There were a handful of pretty bad plays he had during the first two weeks where he "locked in" and sat in the pocket too long and didn't know where to go with the ball. Those were less frequent in Week 3. That's called progress.

Thus the term primary? But it's also true that the primary changes based upon the Defensive set... and the Defensive set can change post-snap.

Mike, I'm still working through the TB game, but I did watch the video compilation of every pass Kizer made in the game focusing on his mechanics. But I also watch his helmet and if a QB is coming off his primary it tends to move. I am not seeing it move, but I am still looking. If you have a particular play or plays, let me know.

As for the first two weeks... your "handful" were the times his primary was not open per the route design. Playing against the 2's and 3's there were a lot of open primaries.

@jrb12711 said:

I'm not good at finding videos to back myself up, but being at the Bucs game I can tell you he did do this at least 2-3 times. There's no doubt he locked onto guys as well, though. He moved up in the pocket extremely well on two occasions (to include the beautiful throw to Coleman) that I was really impressed by as well.

I'll look for them.... the pocket movement has been noted.

On the Coleman throw I did note the "look off" someone (TCPO?) pointed out earlier in the discussion. There was a quick glance to the middle of the field following the pump fake... probably part of the play design to hold the safety

darubes

@gumby73 said:

Jarvis Landry is going INTO his 4th season(not vested?)...If waived? We get 1st crack at him anyhow..I'd trade for a Vested WR (4 years in), cuz they may not volunteer for this adventure..

Landry is in his last contract year. He will want big money next year

Plus has has a nagging domestic violence thing around his neck.

Nice receiver tho.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@tour2ma said:

TC, I honestly have not seen it... not even a hint of it... so if you have a particular play in mind, please let me know.

Everything else I agree with... so he has a chance... but that last step is a big one.

One factor I may have overlooked completely is his being fueled by a desire to make Brian Kelly look like the ass many of us think he is. The way Kizer is now talking in glowing terms about his growing relationship with Hue gave rise to the thought of this possible "incentive".

Wanted to wait until I got home from work today to try and tackle this, sorry for the delay.

The first thing to address is the biggest part - we're obviously not going to see a full rtl progression from him this early on. For one, its preseason and the playbook is still being installed. Two, if Hue and Co. were smart (and it seems like they are), they'd likely adopt a strategy similar to what CAR did with Cam in his first year - ease him into the action by lining the playbook with plenty of half-field and and line of sight reads. And from what I've seen so far, that seems like what they're doing. In a large percentage of Kizer's snaps, you're seeing different variations of half-field concepts (smash, stick, hi-lo) allowing Kizer to read a single defender and make his decisions based off of their reactions.

You're not wrong in saying that Kizer oft locks on to his primary read. He does. But that doesn't mean he's incapable of moving through his progressions, as he's shown the ability to do that from time to time.

, Kizer is given a half-field read. He thinks about hitting the out but pulls down when he sees the corner sit, then pump fakes the go before pulling up to run. The out was likely the primary on this play and he rightly chose not to throw it...though, with his arm talent, I think he froze the CB enough to hit the sideline fly in the soft spot under the deep half zone.

Kizer is given another half-field read against a man look. What follows is essentially a field-side smash concept. His "primary" is Telfer who's running either a go or a deep corner and his "secondary" is the Z (Louis) who is running a corner if Telfer runs the go or an out if Telfer is running the corner. I used quotes there because the real read is the CB , if he jams the Z at the line and then sits in the flat, that's going to open up either the go or the corner route - the safety will have to choose. If the CB slinks out with the Z, it leaves the flat open for a swing pass. Obviously the latter happens. You can see Kizer's eyes go from MIKE to Telfer to the CB (where he almost pulls the trigger), then he pulls down and checks off to Dayes in the flat.

of a half-field read with the hi-lo concept worked well. The pre-snap motion sends the Z across (DeValve) and does two things, it forces the FS into man coverage and forces the OLB to hesitate on his coverage, freeing up the out route for Duke. Kizer fakes the handoff, turns around and has three options to choose from without having to turn his head.

, Kizer locks on to his primary read for most of it, shoots his eyes to the backside read after a few seconds, then looks upfield to run before hitting coming back and hitting the primary for a sizable gain. Doesn't really count, but I liked it.

The deeper into the season we get and the more experience he gets, the more we'll see Kizer start navigating to his backside reads. But to say that there isn't a single example of Kizer progressing through his reads is hyperbolic. Head movement from sideline to sideline != progressing through reads.

Canton Mike

Tour & TC,

I admittedly lack your technical expertise, but I AM a lifelong Browns' Fan who has (& continues to) lived through the positives & negatives over the years. It seems to me that Kiser is a hard worker who addresses mistakes as he plays & improves as games go on. He also seems to "self diagnose". That said, he IS a rookie & will suffer growing pains. I just hope that our media & Fans (many of whom are very negative) can be patient. I look forward to continuing posts from both of you (and others) charting Kiser's progress.

I think the kid is a winner!

Mike

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@canton-mike said:

Tour & TC,

I admittedly lack your technical expertise, but I AM a lifelong Browns' Fan who has (& continues to) lived through the positives & negatives over the years. It seems to me that Kiser is a hard worker who addresses mistakes as he plays & improves as games go on. He also seems to "self diagnose". That said, he IS a rookie & will suffer growing pains. I just hope that our media & Fans (many of whom are very negative) can be patient. I look forward to continuing posts from both of you (and others) charting Kiser's progress.

I think the kid is a winner!

Mike

I do too. There's a lot to be said for understanding the minutiae of the game, but even more to be said for understanding when some players just have "it". I'm not sure if it's something I can pick up on because I've picked a few stinkers in my time, but Kizer has always had a certain je ne sais quoi to him that is reminiscent of a lot of very good NFL QB's. It's something I thought I saw in his ND days and with each week I'm growing more and more convinced that he'll be the guy for us for a long time.

I don't think he'll ever be the guy who goes out there and completes 70% of his passes, throws zero picks and completely rips apart the defense pre snap a la Manning, but I think he'll be a guy who can go out there and extend plays, throw balls into seemingly impossible windows, and maybe have a few 400 yard passing games in his career when all is said and done.