Kizer or Hogan
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Hue absolutely has a say. His say on QB has been the deciding answer except for Hogan. Joel Berry likely has the highest say on the draft inside the FO outside QB. Wentz does not impress me. His pure throwing talent is weak. That is why Hue passed. Trub was supported inside by some of the Browns FO, which means a lot, but has not played yet and that probably is not a good sign this year for him. The way Hue gushes over Kizer and the lie it is sickens me.
Hue has made his own bed. He has made his own way. He was a bad hire from the start and I said so 18 months ago.
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I am all for giving Hogan a shot. Hue only pulled Kize because Cincy started going with back-up;s on D and didn't want Kizer to look like the Sheet he is against the 2nd team.
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Another favor to Hogan is, he is the only QB the FO itself has brought in without Hue Jackson's "approval". Hue's QB choices have looked lackluster so far(RGIII,Kizer,Kessler).
Browns fans love the dialectical illusion of Hue Jackson and the "good ole boy" network. That rarely works. Ask LSU. The sabremetrics guys did not hire Hue Jackson in here. They were squashed together by Jimmy 18 months ago. They have given Hue his choice of QB's while they purged and are redrafting the roster. Hue and his chosen QB's are not getting the job done in progression. Nobody is asking for 9-10 wins. Just progression. I would not be surprised if the Brock starting preseason games wasn't a FO move only for them to be impressed by Hogan's development and so they dumped him and let Hue tie his own rope with Kizer. I think Hogan can become a wonderful backup QB in this league. Kizer right now, is not even that.
Marvin Lewis telling Jackson "don't let them quit on you" is damning bad for Jackson's future. The coaching community doesn't believe in him.
Another favor to Hogan is, he is the only QB the FO itself has brought in without Hue Jackson's "approval". Hue's QB choices have looked lackluster so far(RGIII,Kizer,Kessler).
Speculation, at best. I wouldn't expect a head coach to speak anything but positive about any QB the team signed or drafted.
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That said I'm down to see Hogan start this week against the Jets...This team desperately needs a win, and the offense has looked better in the brief time Hogan has played so far.
Kizer has great physical talent and high potential upside, but it was pretty well known that he would be a work-in-progress when he was drafted. He shouldn't have gotten thrust into the starting role on day 1
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only 5 more interceptions and kizer has tied the number of interceptions thrown by the team last year. say what you will about Britt and the deflection INT but that ball was far far too fast and the spiral was so wobbly, In super slow mo looked like it was tumbling.
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agreed....id like to see Hogan, not because I think he's the answer. but because Kizer has been so bad.......we need a boost and Kizer aint gonna pick this team up and get a win.....no way no how....Hogan just might.....
agreed....id like to see Hogan, not because I think he's the answer. but because Kizer has been so bad.......we need a boost and Kizer aint gonna pick this team up and get a win.....no way no how....Hogan just might.....
Only watched a minute or two of Kizer's post game presser. He's beaten down already. Agreed, it's time for Hogan's Heroes to see what he's got. Kizer can sit and watch. I'm already sick of seeing Deshone do a great Akilli Smith impersonation, throwing passes into the dirt, or so far over receivers heads even a guy with jumping ability like LeBron couldn't get a handle on them.
I thought the Jets were "sucking for Sam", at the rate the Browns are playing, one of the top 2018 QBs will be in easy reach.
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The only time that he's been allowed on the field... and every single time he's been given the opportunity all he does is win. That's all Hogan has ever done is win. I get that you wouldn't get that, after all - what do we know about winning, we're Browns Fans?
We play for high draft picks in Cleveland.
The only time that he's been allowed on the field... and every single time he's been given the opportunity all he does is win. That's all Hogan has ever done is win. I get that you wouldn't get that, after all - what do we know about winning, we're Browns Fans? We play for high draft picks in Cleveland.
Anytime you want to compare what we "get" about football relative to each other... just let me know.
agreed....id like to see Hogan, not because I think he's the answer. but because Kizer has been so bad.......we need a boost and Kizer aint gonna pick this team up and get a win.....no way no how....Hogan just might.....
Anything Hogan might bring would simply be a sugar high. Kizer has been bad, but... as I have written elsewhere... not the same level of bad in the same areas week to week. #babysteps
Another favor to Hogan is, he is the only QB the FO itself has brought in without Hue Jackson's "approval". Hue's QB choices have looked lackluster so far(RGIII,Kizer,Kessler).
Browns fans love the dialectical illusion of Hue Jackson and the "good ole boy" network. That rarely works. Ask LSU. The sabremetrics guys did not hire Hue Jackson in here. They were squashed together by Jimmy 18 months ago. They have given Hue his choice of QB's while they purged and are redrafting the roster. Hue and his chosen QB's are not getting the job done in progression. Nobody is asking for 9-10 wins. Just progression. I would not be surprised if the Brock starting preseason games wasn't a FO move only for them to be impressed by Hogan's development and so they dumped him and let Hue tie his own rope with Kizer. I think Hogan can become a wonderful backup QB in this league. Kizer right now, is not even that.
Hue absolutely has a say. His say on QB has been the deciding answer except for Hogan. Joel Berry likely has the highest say on the draft inside the FO outside QB. Wentz does not impress me. His pure throwing talent is weak. That is why Hue passed. Trub was supported inside by some of the Browns FO, which means a lot, but has not played yet and that probably is not a good sign this year for him.
Curious as to where you are getting your inside info... Specifically Kizer being a Hue pick deserving of grouping with Kess and RG3, and Berry's "say weighting".
Hue was hired on Jan. 3, 2016. Depo on Jan 5. They came in together. Jimmah was involved, but I suspect Sashi (and Dee) were just as involved and that Hue was made aware of the FO direction and Depo's pending hire. Regardless I'm sure Hue is a participant in all roster moves, albeit with more QB "input" as you suggest. Ours is a consensus process. Hue is part of that process. He may well hold more "sway" in QB discussions, but he has no added authority than that sway affords him. At least that's my take based upon years of work with organizational dynamics.
FWIW I do agree on your general QB takes, if not your basis. Bears have announced that Trubs get the Week 5 start, so the feedback loop begins Sunday. I think he'll be used much the same as Wentz was early in 2016 and so far this year... a lot of simplification... a lot of designed movement. Something Kizer can still benefit from.
Kizer has great physical talent and high potential upside, but it was pretty well known that he would be a work-in-progress when he was drafted. He shouldn't have gotten thrust into the starting role on day 1
Agree, but despite Hue begging no one else in the QB room stood up and took the job. It was supposed to be Kess'... he turned it down. It was handed to Brock... he dropped it like a hot potato. And surprise of surprises the stage did not look too big for our rookie.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
The only time that he's been allowed on the field... and every single time he's been given the opportunity all he does is win. That's all Hogan has ever done is win. I get that you wouldn't get that, after all - what do we know about winning, we're Browns Fans? We play for high draft picks in Cleveland.
Anytime you want to compare what we "get" about football relative to each other... just let me know.
agreed....id like to see Hogan, not because I think he's the answer. but because Kizer has been so bad.......we need a boost and Kizer aint gonna pick this team up and get a win.....no way no how....Hogan just might.....
Anything Hogan might bring would simply be a sugar high. Kizer has been bad, but... as I have written elsewhere... not the same level of bad in the same areas week to week. #babysteps
Another favor to Hogan is, he is the only QB the FO itself has brought in without Hue Jackson's "approval". Hue's QB choices have looked lackluster so far(RGIII,Kizer,Kessler).
Browns fans love the dialectical illusion of Hue Jackson and the "good ole boy" network. That rarely works. Ask LSU. The sabremetrics guys did not hire Hue Jackson in here. They were squashed together by Jimmy 18 months ago. They have given Hue his choice of QB's while they purged and are redrafting the roster. Hue and his chosen QB's are not getting the job done in progression. Nobody is asking for 9-10 wins. Just progression. I would not be surprised if the Brock starting preseason games wasn't a FO move only for them to be impressed by Hogan's development and so they dumped him and let Hue tie his own rope with Kizer. I think Hogan can become a wonderful backup QB in this league. Kizer right now, is not even that.
Hue absolutely has a say. His say on QB has been the deciding answer except for Hogan. Joel Berry likely has the highest say on the draft inside the FO outside QB. Wentz does not impress me. His pure throwing talent is weak. That is why Hue passed. Trub was supported inside by some of the Browns FO, which means a lot, but has not played yet and that probably is not a good sign this year for him.
Curious as to where you are getting your inside info... Specifically Kizer being a Hue pick deserving of grouping with Kess and RG3, and Berry's "say weighting".
Hue was hired on Jan. 3, 2016. Depo on Jan 5. They came in together. Jimmah was involved, but I suspect Sashi (and Dee) were just as involved and that Hue was made aware of the FO direction and Depo's pending hire. Regardless I'm sure Hue is a participant in all roster moves, albeit with more QB "input" as you suggest. Ours is a consensus process. Hue is part of that process. He may well hold more "sway" in QB discussions, but he has no added authority than that sway affords him. At least that's my take based upon years of work with organizational dynamics.
FWIW I do agree on your general QB takes, if not your basis. Bears have announced that Trubs get the Week 5 start, so the feedback loop begins Sunday. I think he'll be used much the same as Wentz was early in 2016 and so far this year... a lot of simplification... a lot of designed movement. Something Kizer can still benefit from.
Kizer has great physical talent and high potential upside, but it was pretty well known that he would be a work-in-progress when he was drafted. He shouldn't have gotten thrust into the starting role on day 1
Agree, but despite Hue begging no one else in the QB room stood up and took the job. It was supposed to be Kess'... he turned it down. It was handed to Brock... he dropped it like a hot potato. And surprise of surprises the stage did not look too big for our rookie.
Agree, but despite Hue begging no one else in the QB room stood up and took the job. It was supposed to be Kess'... he turned it down. It was handed to Brock... he dropped it like a hot potato. And surprise of surprises the stage did not look too big for our rookie.
Which one?
Game one, I agree not. After that- regression (probably to be expected) every game since.
I'll just throw this out there- have there ever been any long term QB successes in the NFL if the guy had accuracy issues? Seriously, do you think Deshone can improve in that area? I'm doubting it.
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Thats exactly my take aswell, Kizer is starting because he "Fits" Hue Jackson's QB Mold not because he is the best QB on the roster. Much in the same way that RG3 was outplayed by josh mccown all last offseason yet Hue Named him starter. Lets not forget the reports of Hue Spending so much time in the first offseason with the RG3 reclaimation project that he drew criticism for not fully preparing the rest of the team. Like in the same way this offseason Hue focused so much time on developing kizer that our overall offense is some of the worst in the league.
Hue is a man of great Arrogance and Ego. The reported power struggle in oakland which led him to being fired is starting to become apparent. From an analytics perspective this team's roster is designed around quick short passing with RAC chances with a short yardage SIMPLE running game. Too bad we are playing a pass happy vertical offense and an overly complicated running scheme (and non-existant) without the players to support it. -
^Tour, I'm am telling you that Hue is single handedly destroying any chance we have of winning a game by playing Kizer.
I said it, in the preseason and I'm still saying it again, Kevin Hogan is legit...
Jackson has a capable QB, Hogan- right under his nose and he's too blinded with 'wanting' Kizer to be good.
I'm not going to debate with you on what you 'know' and what you 'think' I know - I'm just telling you - I know what I know, and I know that Kevin Hogan makes us a totally different team.
To listen to the media and then to listen to Hue and his press conferences it is frustrating. Especially when you 'know' that fixing this team is as simple as starting Kevin Hogan. I know that.
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Agree, but despite Hue begging no one else in the QB room stood up and took the job. It was supposed to be Kess'... he turned it down. It was handed to Brock... he dropped it like a hot potato. And surprise of surprises the stage did not look too big for our rookie.
Which one?
Game one, I agree not. After that- regression (probably to be expected) every game since.
I'll just throw this out there- have there ever been any long term QB successes in the NFL if the guy had accuracy issues? Seriously, do you think Deshone can improve in that area? I'm doubting it.
Po... I did not initiate the knowledge comparison. Just letting you know I'm up for it anytime you like.
Which one?
Game one, I agree not. After that- regression (probably to be expected) every game since.
I'll just throw this out there- have there ever been any long term QB successes in the NFL if the guy had accuracy issues? Seriously, do you think Deshone can improve in that area? I'm doubting it.
Talking pre-season, h... that cast the die.
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Thats exactly my take aswell, Kizer is starting because he "Fits" Hue Jackson's QB Mold not because he is the best QB on the roster. Much in the same way that RG3 was outplayed by josh mccown all last offseason yet Hue Named him starter. Lets not forget the reports of Hue Spending so much time in the first offseason with the RG3 reclaimation project that he drew criticism for not fully preparing the rest of the team. Like in the same way this offseason Hue focused so much time on developing kizer that our overall offense is some of the worst in the league.
Hue is a man of great Arrogance and Ego. The reported power struggle in oakland which led him to being fired is starting to become apparent. From an analytics perspective this team's roster is designed around quick short passing with RAC chances with a short yardage SIMPLE running game. Too bad we are playing a pass happy vertical offense and an overly complicated running scheme (and non-existant) without the players to support it.Thats exactly my take aswell, Kizer is starting because he "Fits" Hue Jackson's QB Mold not because he is the best QB on the roster.
Posted a similar thought somewhere around here except more in the vein that Hue is molding Kizer to play in Hue's offense. No doubt that Kizer's physical gifts play a role.
But I maintain that starting Kizer Week 1 was not the original plan.
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It almost doesn't matter. These idiots in the front office have seen to it that whether or not any of these gambles that they've taken can play the game there's no one left on the team to Mentor anyone. Absolutely no veteran leadership to be seen.
Yes I understand the youth movement I also understand it would be better with Josh McCown with Joe Haden and better with Gary Barnidge.. the old guys could help the young guys and we have players that actually know the game. Address them next year if you feel they have to go but...
This is getting ridiculous. I don't think Ozzie Newsome went to Harvard.
WSS
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And before you remind me that Gary barnidge still doesn't have a job neither would Kenny Britt if we wouldn't have ponied up
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
another way to look at it.....some interesting numbers about our FO's activity......in their almost 2 years here, we have drafted 23 players, had 17 trades and signed 6 FA's(not counting the dozens of lower level FA's & Udfa'S).....SO, just trades and Drafts equal 40 specific, planned roster moves.....now, what do we have to show for ALL those moves in terms of quality NFL starters or top level performers?.....a couple or few?.....remember 40 moves, not counting the crapola UDFA types......
turble....
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And before you remind me that Gary barnidge still doesn't have a job neither would Kenny Britt if we wouldn't have ponied up
WSS
And before you remind me that Gary barnidge still doesn't have a job neither would Kenny Britt if we wouldn't have ponied up
WSS
I keep hearing those types of comments....basically indicating that it's ok for the fo to suck, because where's Ray Farmer?....or it's ok for our new players to suck, because the guys they replaced werent that good either?....dumbest schlock Ive ever heard....
Hey....if that^^^^^^ is your defense of this FO, then you dont understand the only reason they are here.......to "improve" the team, not to maintain the ineptness....(which is at a new low, too)
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another way to look at it.....some interesting numbers about our FO's activity......in their almost 2 years here, we have drafted 23 players, had 17 trades and signed 6 FA's(not counting the dozens of lower level FA's & Udfa'S).....SO, just trades and Drafts equal 40 specific, planned roster moves.....now, what do we have to show for ALL those moves in terms of quality NFL starters or top level performers?.....a couple or few?.....remember 40 moves, not counting the crapola UDFA types......
turble....
another way to look at it.....some interesting numbers about our FO's activity......in their almost 2 years here, we have drafted 23 players, had 17 trades and signed 6 FA's(not counting the dozens of lower level FA's & Udfa'S).....SO, just trades and Drafts equal 40 specific, planned roster moves.....now, what do we have to show for ALL those moves in terms of quality NFL starters or top level performers?.....a couple or few?.....remember 40 moves, not counting the crapola UDFA types......
turble....
and if the talent we have is being used in the wrong way/system then is it really fair to judge the FO for the BLATENT waste of any talent we may have. You can pretty much discount last year under Horton and the defense has shown flashes of excellence this year and plenty of growing pains. The offense has been Hilariously stagnant for all of Hue's Tenure as HC AND has shown ZERO improvement in over 20 games. If kessler is a FO pick i can see it. Short yardage High Percentage Passing Specialist Got it. This Defense Last year with Kesslers Play and we win 4-5 games. It aint flashy, it aint highlight real Stuff. Its consistent football that pays dividends in the W column. All we have is the Deep ball Thats it. And our offense is not built for that its designed to take advantage of Mesh/Cross concepts and RAC. A Key concept behind the "Moneyball" strategy was Consistently picking and utilizing gameplans that were high percentage of success. It's going to take someone A LOT smarter than me to explain how throwing a low percentage deep pass as much as we throw short is in compliance with that style. or how using a RB with limited vision in delayed Shotgun handoffs is a winning formula.
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another way to look at it.....some interesting numbers about our FO's activity......in their almost 2 years here, we have drafted 23 players, had 17 trades and signed 6 FA's(not counting the dozens of lower level FA's & Udfa'S).....SO, just trades and Drafts equal 40 specific, planned roster moves.....now, what do we have to show for ALL those moves in terms of quality NFL starters or top level performers?.....a couple or few?.....remember 40 moves, not counting the crapola UDFA types......
turble....
and if the talent we have is being used in the wrong way/system then is it really fair to judge the FO for the BLATENT waste of any talent we may have. You can pretty much discount last year under Horton and the defense has shown flashes of excellence this year and plenty of growing pains. The offense has been Hilariously stagnant for all of Hue's Tenure as HC AND has shown ZERO improvement in over 20 games. If kessler is a FO pick i can see it. Short yardage High Percentage Passing Specialist Got it. This Defense Last year with Kesslers Play and we win 4-5 games. It aint flashy, it aint highlight real Stuff. Its consistent football that pays dividends in the W column. All we have is the Deep ball Thats it. And our offense is not built for that its designed to take advantage of Mesh/Cross concepts and RAC. A Key concept behind the "Moneyball" strategy was Consistently picking and utilizing gameplans that were high percentage of success. It's going to take someone A LOT smarter than me to explain how throwing a low percentage deep pass as much as we throw short is in compliance with that style. or how using a RB with limited vision in delayed Shotgun handoffs is a winning formula.
and if the talent we have is being used in the wrong way/system then is it really fair to judge the FO for the BLATENT waste of any talent we may have. You can pretty much discount last year under Horton and the defense has shown flashes of excellence this year and plenty of growing pains. The offense has been Hilariously stagnant for all of Hue's Tenure as HC AND has shown ZERO improvement in over 20 games. If kessler is a FO pick i can see it. Short yardage High Percentage Passing Specialist Got it. This Defense Last year with Kesslers Play and we win 4-5 games. It aint flashy, it aint highlight real Stuff. Its consistent football that pays dividends in the W column. All we have is the Deep ball Thats it. And our offense is not built for that its designed to take advantage of Mesh/Cross concepts and RAC. A Key concept behind the "Moneyball" strategy was Consistently picking and utilizing gameplans that were high percentage of success. It's going to take someone A LOT smarter than me to explain how throwing a low percentage deep pass as much as we throw short is in compliance with that style. or how using a RB with limited vision in delayed Shotgun handoffs is a winning formula.
Limited vision? Ray Charles had limited vision. The crow is blind.
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And before you remind me that Gary barnidge still doesn't have a job neither would Kenny Britt if we wouldn't have ponied up
WSS
And before you remind me that Gary barnidge still doesn't have a job neither would Kenny Britt if we wouldn't have ponied up
And you know that how?
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