If you hate the Cleveland Browns rebuild, ignore this: Podcast
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Thanks for the thread Tour. I needed this.
My name is Tour... and I'm here to help.
Yes, Sashi and the Harvard Think Tank have a plan. That's nice and all. But are they the right people to be actually DRAFTING FOOTBALL PLAYERS? AND NOT DRAFTING OTHER PLAYERS? Are they the right talent evaluators?
Well... they are NOT the people evaluating talent or drafting players... so there's that.
The problem with the fans and this plan is because they stripped the entire roster bare people seem to be expecting them to hit on EVERY draft pick. Or it’s a failure
No front office gets it right every time and nor will this one. I’ve always thought their idea of plan was the right one, I still do, but that doesn’t mean all the picks are going to work. They clearly won’t
Bingo... When I have some time I'll look back at our two drafts under this FO compared to the other 31 franchises. I think we'll look pretty damn good.
Still if I'd been the general manager of the Cleveland Browns for the last decade or so I don't suppose we'd have been much worse . Just saying.
lol... set a low bar much? Would you have been any better?
I think he’s wrong on that. We did need to strip them bare. Well, maybe not needed to. But it was certainly the best plan. Makes for more long term success.
Agree... it was the point of the entire podcast.
You can (and we did) languish in the 3-7 win hell forever. We never built a nucleus. We stole wins with modest talent and a sprinkling of FAs were could lure thru a combo of money and personal relationships, e.g. hire staff who'd worked with FA's before.
It's purgatory... neither heaven nor hell.
You can (and we did) languish in the 3-7 win hell forever. We never built a nucleus. We stole wins with modest talent and a sprinkling of FAs were could lure thru a combo of money and personal relationships, e.g. hire staff who'd worked with FA's before.
It's purgatory... neither heaven nor hell.
this is a very naive and misguided take. 3-7 wins in the modern day nfl is pretty much hell. This is isn't college football. The 'best' 2-3 teams in this league tend to have an average pythagorean of 12 or so wins and the worst average about 4. Over much of the last 6 years or whatever, we've averaged about that....certainly not purgatory. Purgatory is the rams from 2012 to 2015 for example.
Additionally, you seem very confused on what the nfl is. You're speaking of it like it is the nba with your jargon and you're sam hinkie. My guess is you would be a sam hinkie fan(I am too in some ways). But the nba is 180 degrees different than the nfl. Sam Hinkie's approach works great in the nba because because if you have 40-45 win talent in the nba you really are SOL and thats a terrible place to be consistently. Because when you are winning 40-45 games there are very limited ways to improve out of that area and become elite. But if you have 8 win talent in the nfl, it's very possible to get to that 11-12 win pythag where most super bowl winners come from with the right moves.
The sam hinkie approach works in the nba because if you get the kind of players hinkie was looking for(and just a couple!) that can be a decade+ run with those playarers. The nfl is a much different beast- you don't win with a couple gems for starters like in the nfl. You win with a bunch of players. And the average career length in this league is 3 years. unlike the nba, you are constantly turning over meaningful parts of the roster....even in 'good' teams. So the idea of a complete tear down in the nfl is fraught with issues instantly because once the slate is completely clean and you start building your perfect team it's such a transient league that you never have time to 'get it right'.
I do kind of disagree with calling this a 'tear down' though....there wasnt a lot to tear down. Over the last 6 years we've been about the worst team in the league(avg pythag of 4), so you really cant get much worse. Dont be distracted by last years record- we really werent that bad. Our pythag was maybe half a win to two thirds a win behind what has been typical. In the 1 to 5 win category, you're usually dealing with luck and random happenings as the difference makers between things like 2 and 4 wins.
Winning 1-2 games for back to back years in the nfl is very very difficult. Just because the way the league is set up. So is winning 15 games back to back years. Which is why that sort of stuff pretty much never happens. So when we win 5-6 games in 2018, some of you will take it as a sign the 'process is working'. Could be, but more than likely we'll just be reverting back to the mean for bad teams and it won't represent a real improvement.
What I see a lot in here are fundamental misunderstandings of how teams get better in the nfl and what can typically be expected in a turnaround in terms of the length of the process. It's a failure to understand just how transient and dynamic the nfl is on a year to year basis relative to something like the nba. All these ideas about a '5 year process' and such for our team are insane. We may be a good team in 2022-23 or not....who knows. But it sure as hell won't be because of a tear down in 2016 either way.
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Browns ?
What we're seeing is BELOW expansion team quality.
Remember, Billy Beane, for all the "money ball" hype, never won a title.
Theo Epstein has done very well using the same principles.
Theo Epstein has done very well using the same principles.
no relevance at all to the nfl.
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It’s never been tried. So while we can’t provide you a stripped down team that has had success, you also can’t provide a team that’s stripped their team down and NOT had success.
this is such nonsense. We didn't do anything revolutionary by letting some decent veterans go. Non-sucky teams do that all the time for various reasons. We have been a typical 4 win pythag team over the last several years....the idea that a 4 win pythag team does something revolutionary by letting some decent but not elite vets go to bring in cheaper younger guys is ho hum.
Sashi and company are revolutionaries. They aren't even thinking outside the box that much. Not that that's a good or bad thing.....
In today's nfl, these type of seasons(if we really do go 3-29 over 2 years) are not tolerated. Even for sucky teams 'rebuilding'(and I hate that word because in the nfl it has a very different meaning than in other pro sports), it's still very hard to go 3-29.
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Sashi has final say. Sashi gave the Eagles Wentz. Sashi gave the Texans Watson.
If that's your take, then I wasted my time searching for my old posts, let alone writing them.
And you wasted whatever time you spent on them.
- this is a very naive and misguided take.
- Additionally, you seem very confused on what the nfl is.
- The sam hinkie approach ...
- I do kind of disagree with calling this a 'tear down' though...
- How do you really feel?
- Pretty sure I'm not.
- No idea who he is.
- Did I call 2017 a tear down?If I did, then my bad... to my mind it's the first year of the rebuild.
You seem to be adept at picking apart an argument... or at least constructing a counter. Care to illuminate the better way?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Theo Epstein has done very well using the same principles.
no relevance at all to the nfl.
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Sashi has final say. Sashi gave the Eagles Wentz. Sashi gave the Texans Watson.
If that's your take, then I wasted my time searching for my old posts, let alone writing them.
And you wasted whatever time you spent on them.
- this is a very naive and misguided take.
- Additionally, you seem very confused on what the nfl is.
- The sam hinkie approach ...
- I do kind of disagree with calling this a 'tear down' though...
- How do you really feel?
- Pretty sure I'm not.
- No idea who he is.
- Did I call 2017 a tear down?If I did, then my bad... to my mind it's the first year of the rebuild.
You seem to be adept at picking apart an argument... or at least constructing a counter. Care to illuminate the better way?
If that's your take, then I wasted my time searching for my old posts, let alone writing them.
And you wasted whatever time you spent on them.
- How do you really feel?
- Pretty sure I'm not.
- No idea who he is.
- Did I call 2017 a tear down?If I did, then my bad... to my mind it's the first year of the rebuild.
You seem to be adept at picking apart an argument... or at least constructing a counter. Care to illuminate the better way?
I don't think you understand the definition of adept. Or you just complimented me. If it's the latter, thanks.
On point 4, clearly by 'this' I meant what people in this thread have referred to as a tear down. Not 2017. Not sure how one could infer anything else.
Sam Hinkie is the philadelphia basketball gm who intentionally got as bad as possible and acquired as many 'assets' as possible in a 3 year period in order to give the 76ers the best shot to win big in the future. The nba of course is a very different league than the nfl in terms of how to build a team to win.
in the nfl there is no such thing as a 'long rebuild' or '5 year process'.
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When Billy Beane is brought into the convo, Theo Epstein can be used as a counter to the argument.
two wrongs dont make a right.
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When Billy Beane is brought into the convo, Theo Epstein can be used as a counter to the argument.
two wrongs dont make a right.
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Sashi has final say. Sashi gave the Eagles Wentz. Sashi gave the Texans Watson.
If that's your take, then I wasted my time searching for my old posts, let alone writing them.
And you wasted whatever time you spent on them.
- this is a very naive and misguided take.
- Additionally, you seem very confused on what the nfl is.
- The sam hinkie approach ...
- I do kind of disagree with calling this a 'tear down' though...
- How do you really feel?
- Pretty sure I'm not.
- No idea who he is.
- Did I call 2017 a tear down?If I did, then my bad... to my mind it's the first year of the rebuild.
You seem to be adept at picking apart an argument... or at least constructing a counter. Care to illuminate the better way?
- Did I call 2017 a tear down?If I did, then my bad... to my mind it's the first year of the rebuild.
Wait a cotton pickin second there.....are you now giving them a complete flyer on 2016??? and their 14 picks???
No allowed....sorry
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I think he’s wrong on that. We did need to strip them bare...... it was certainly the best plan...Makes for more long term success.
Can somebody name one team that has stripped down(like the Browns have) then gone on to win a championship OR have "sustained" success....????......I already know the answer, which is no.....
It’s never been tried. So while we can’t provide you a stripped down team that has had success, you also can’t provide a team that’s stripped their team down and NOT had success.
Brilliant.....its never been done, but we needed to do it cause it leads to long term success....???
Anyone else wanna try?.....
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Wait a cotton pickin second there.....are you now giving them a complete flyer on 2016??? and their 14 picks???
No allowed....sorry
true good point....I think this goes to a point some of you don't fully grasp: in the nfl, there is rarely a well demarcated point between 'rebuilding' starts and stops....the rosters are in such a constant state of turnover and fortunes change so quickly that it's silly to look at it like this.
I get why it's tempting for fans of bad teams like we are to think like that. But it's a fake construct.
We want to say "oh we suck now but this is neccessary to be good again. We'll suck this year, and then get a little better in 2018 and go 4-12. and then improve to 7-9 in 2019. And keep getting better and move to 9 or 10 wins in 2020. And then by 2021 we'll be an 11-12 win team and playing for it all". Things don't work that way. As if tere is some natural and linear progression with these things....
look at 2014. That was a 7 win year after two crappier years before that. Did it represent a linear uptick? heck no....and we shouldn't have expected it to. Instead the year afteir that we were worse, and shitcanned our coach, and now we are supposedly in another 'rebuild'......and honestly it's not even really clear what year of the 'rebuild' this is because things dont work like that in the nfl...as I think some of you guys are hopefully seeing.
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When Billy Beane is brought into the convo, Theo Epstein can be used as a counter to the argument.
Baseball doesn't have salary cap issues like the NFL. Boston and Chicago aren't exactly media market wastelands.
In the NFL, due to salary cap restrictions, all teams have an equal amount of capital to build a roster......if they choose to and DO SO CORRECTLY.
To support and defend a total and complete roster purge = 0 wins 5 losses
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When Billy Beane is brought into the convo, Theo Epstein can be used as a counter to the argument.
Baseball doesn't have salary cap issues like the NFL. Boston and Chicago aren't exactly media market wastelands.
In the NFL, due to salary cap restrictions, all teams have an equal amount of capital to build a roster......if they choose to and DO SO CORRECTLY.
To support and defend a total and complete roster purge = 0 wins 5 losses
Baseball doesn't have salary cap issues like the NFL Boston and Chicago aren't exactly media market wastelands.
In the NFL, due to salary caps, all teams have an equal amount of capital to build a roster.
To support and defend a total and complete roster purge = 0 wins 5 losses
Haha. For the love of dog.
Someone, I don't even know who and I don't care enough to look it up, said that for all the pub Billy Beane got for the brilliance of "Money Ball", he never won a title in Oakland. I responded that Epstein has used the same approach and has won multiple titles.
I'm well aware that MLB is different than the NFL, but since someone decided to bring up Beane, I countered with Epstein.
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Shmuck money ball....it never proved to be a winning formula...and, right now, the Browns are easily the worst they've ever been and going on 2 years of it...soon to challenge for the worst ANY team has ever been......
There is ZERO TANGIBLE evidence that this FO has done anything to improve this team.....and all indicators(that matter) are that it is much worse.....including the Coaching staff......
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When Billy Beane is brought into the convo, Theo Epstein can be used as a counter to the argument.
two wrongs dont make a right.
two wrongs dont make a right.
ah... but three lefts do...
Wait a cotton pickin second there.....are you now giving them a complete flyer on 2016??? and their 14 picks??? No allowed....sorry
I do not acknowledge your rules...
I give a partial pass on the 2016 draft. Dredged up the very insightful comment I made months ago... that Farmer punted on his first draft, but besides having no more time and no better assessment of the inherited roster Sashi & Co. did not. And turns out we got some good players out of the effort.
As you've pointed out ever more frequently we bumped a lot of Browns out of the way so we could see what we had... that's not building... that's at best probing.
So the rebuild began with this draft.
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two wrongs dont make a right.
ah... but three lefts do...
Wait a cotton pickin second there.....are you now giving them a complete flyer on 2016??? and their 14 picks??? No allowed....sorry
I do not acknowledge your rules...
I give a partial pass on the 2016 draft. Dredged up the very insightful comment I made months ago... that Farmer punted on his first draft, but besides having no more time and no better assessment of the inherited roster Sashi & Co. did not. And turns out we got some good players out of the effort.
As you've pointed out ever more frequently we bumped a lot of Browns out of the way so we could see what we had... that's not building... that's at best probing.
So the rebuild began with this draft.
ah... but three lefts do...
I do not acknowledge your rules...
I give a partial pass on the 2016 draft. Dredged up the very insightful comment I made months ago... that Farmer punted on his first draft, but besides having no more time and no better assessment of the inherited roster Sashi & Co. did not. And turns out we got some good players out of the effort.
As you've pointed out ever more frequently we bumped a lot of Browns out of the way so we could see what we had... that's not building... that's at best probing.
So the rebuild began with this draft.
there is no "rebuild begins x" or "rebuild began y".....it doesnt work that way. it's always a running clock, and performance is always measured as time moves along....
the results for sashi and co to this point have been piss poor. And I dont mean in terms of wins and losses(although thats part of it). I mean in terms of what they have developed so far in two years and the progress that has been made over that time. But hey, like I said, their tenure isn't up yet. Still time to turn it around and do better. We'll see.....what isn't up for debate though is that so far the results havent been good.
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Wait a cotton pickin second there.....are you now giving them a complete flyer on 2016??? and their 14 picks???
No allowed....sorry
true good point....I think this goes to a point some of you don't fully grasp: in the nfl, there is rarely a well demarcated point between 'rebuilding' starts and stops....the rosters are in such a constant state of turnover and fortunes change so quickly that it's silly to look at it like this.
I get why it's tempting for fans of bad teams like we are to think like that. But it's a fake construct.
We want to say "oh we suck now but this is neccessary to be good again. We'll suck this year, and then get a little better in 2018 and go 4-12. and then improve to 7-9 in 2019. And keep getting better and move to 9 or 10 wins in 2020. And then by 2021 we'll be an 11-12 win team and playing for it all". Things don't work that way. As if tere is some natural and linear progression with these things....
look at 2014. That was a 7 win year after two crappier years before that. Did it represent a linear uptick? heck no....and we shouldn't have expected it to. Instead the year afteir that we were worse, and shitcanned our coach, and now we are supposedly in another 'rebuild'......and honestly it's not even really clear what year of the 'rebuild' this is because things dont work like that in the nfl...as I think some of you guys are hopefully seeing.
Things don't work that way. As if tere is some natural and linear progression with these things....
I disagree on starts being unidentifiable. I do agree that the anticipated progression is non-linear. It is more likely geometric.
Shmuck money ball....it never proved to be a winning formula...and, right now, the Browns are easily the worst they've ever been and going on 2 years of it...soon to challenge for the worst ANY team has ever been......
There is ZERO TANGIBLE evidence that this FO has done anything to improve this team.....and all indicators(that matter) are that it is much worse.....including the Coaching staff......
Tell that to a Red Sox fan. Tell that to an Astros fan. Tell that to an Indians fan.
Refusing to see any evidence is not the same as it not existing.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
ah... but three lefts do...
I do not acknowledge your rules...
I give a partial pass on the 2016 draft. Dredged up the very insightful comment I made months ago... that Farmer punted on his first draft, but besides having no more time and no better assessment of the inherited roster Sashi & Co. did not. And turns out we got some good players out of the effort.
As you've pointed out ever more frequently we bumped a lot of Browns out of the way so we could see what we had... that's not building... that's at best probing.
So the rebuild began with this draft.
there is no "rebuild begins x" or "rebuild began y".....it doesnt work that way. it's always a running clock, and performance is always measured as time moves along....
the results for sashi and co to this point have been piss poor. And I dont mean in terms of wins and losses(although thats part of it). I mean in terms of what they have developed so far in two years and the progress that has been made over that time. But hey, like I said, their tenure isn't up yet. Still time to turn it around and do better. We'll see.....what isn't up for debate though is that so far the results havent been good.
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