If you hate the Cleveland Browns rebuild, ignore this: Podcast
-
in the nfl, there is rarely a well demarcated point between 'rebuilding' starts and stops....the rosters are in such a constant state of turnover and fortunes change so quickly that it's silly to look at it like this. - well said. teams are always chasing the roster
I get why it's tempting for fans of bad teams like we are to think like that. But it's a fake construct.
We want to say "oh we suck now but this is neccessary to be good again. We'll suck this year, and then get a little better in 2018 and go 4-12. and then improve to 7-9 in 2019. And keep getting better and move to 9 or 10 wins in 2020. And then by 2021 we'll be an 11-12 win team and playing for it all". Things don't work that way. As if tere is some natural and linear progression with these things....
look at 2014. That was a 7 win year after two crappier years before that. Did it represent a linear uptick? heck no....and we shouldn't have expected it to. Instead the year afteir that we were worse, and shitcanned our coach, and now we are supposedly in another 'rebuild'......and honestly it's not even really clear what year of the 'rebuild' this is because things dont work like that in the nfl...as I think some of you guys are hopefully seeing.
The bottom line here is that Sashi and his pompous Harvard mates stripped the roster beyond what was needed. They CREATED holes in our team where there were none. This made the 'rebuild' MUCH harder and made the team worse. Instead of just trying to upgrade the holes that we HAD, they had to ALSO upgrade the holes that they CREATED. I'm sorry but I just cannot be convinced that THAT is the wicked smaaat way to do it. It does not pass the logic test.
Now, of course, it's too late. We've no choice BUT to draft young players and try to coach them up to be good veterans. (in which case the team will 'get old' together, which will lead them to strip it all down again, I suppose)
The bottom line here is that Sashi and his pompous Harvard mates stripped the roster beyond what was needed. They CREATED holes in our team where there were none. This made the 'rebuild' MUCH harder and made the team worse. Instead of just trying to upgrade the holes that we HAD, they had to ALSO upgrade the holes that they CREATED. I'm sorry but I just cannot be convinced that THAT is the wicked smaaat way to do it. It does not pass the logic test.
Now, of course, it's too late. We've no choice BUT to draft young players and try to coach them up to be good veterans. (in which case the team will 'get old' together, which will lead them to strip it all down again, I suppose)
The ultimate irony would be if they had no plan, and were just kinda guessing and winging it.
-
in the nfl, there is rarely a well demarcated point between 'rebuilding' starts and stops....the rosters are in such a constant state of turnover and fortunes change so quickly that it's silly to look at it like this. - well said. teams are always chasing the roster
I get why it's tempting for fans of bad teams like we are to think like that. But it's a fake construct.
We want to say "oh we suck now but this is neccessary to be good again. We'll suck this year, and then get a little better in 2018 and go 4-12. and then improve to 7-9 in 2019. And keep getting better and move to 9 or 10 wins in 2020. And then by 2021 we'll be an 11-12 win team and playing for it all". Things don't work that way. As if tere is some natural and linear progression with these things....
look at 2014. That was a 7 win year after two crappier years before that. Did it represent a linear uptick? heck no....and we shouldn't have expected it to. Instead the year afteir that we were worse, and shitcanned our coach, and now we are supposedly in another 'rebuild'......and honestly it's not even really clear what year of the 'rebuild' this is because things dont work like that in the nfl...as I think some of you guys are hopefully seeing.
The bottom line here is that Sashi and his pompous Harvard mates stripped the roster beyond what was needed. They CREATED holes in our team where there were none. This made the 'rebuild' MUCH harder and made the team worse. Instead of just trying to upgrade the holes that we HAD, they had to ALSO upgrade the holes that they CREATED. I'm sorry but I just cannot be convinced that THAT is the wicked smaaat way to do it. It does not pass the logic test.
Now, of course, it's too late. We've no choice BUT to draft young players and try to coach them up to be good veterans. (in which case the team will 'get old' together, which will lead them to strip it all down again, I suppose)
The bottom line here is that Sashi and his pompous Harvard mates stripped the roster beyond what was needed. They CREATED holes in our team where there were none. This made the 'rebuild' MUCH harder and made the team worse. Instead of just trying to upgrade the holes that we HAD, they had to ALSO upgrade the holes that they CREATED. I'm sorry but I just cannot be convinced that THAT is the wicked smaaat way to do it. It does not pass the logic test.
Now, of course, it's too late. We've no choice BUT to draft young players and try to coach them up to be good veterans. (in which case the team will 'get old' together, which will lead them to strip it all down again, I suppose)
Well said Orion....my main bitch since day one of this tear down......they went too far and created an impossible hole to fill......does not pass my logic, thats for sure.....and amazing to me that people insist it's the way to go, yet none can explain why.....other than its "different"....logic-less
The ultimate irony would be if they had no plan, and were just kinda guessing and winging it.
Ha!...I think they have to be winging it....ones a lawyer and the other is a baseball guy.....neither has ever done this....how could they not be winging it???
-
I too agree with the questionable need to eliminate every veteran on the team sans Joe Thomas, especially considering the insane amount of cap space. This isn't baseball, you aren't trading most players for draft picks. Why the Browns couldn't have kept the vets they had AND add young players, slowly integrating them into the NFL with the idea of eventually replacing the older players is beyond me, in an environment that is not a complete disaster. Its what that team 100 miles southeast of Cleveland has been doing for decades.
Instead, the Browns just strip the team down to the studs and throw a ton of young kids out there to do their impression of monkeys Shmucking a football, with little veteran guidance.
-
I am happy we're doing the rebuild. Starting over every year or two was never going to work, and it never will.
Our roster is younger and more talented than rosters in recent history. Plus we still have a lot of capital (cap space, picks) moving forward.
Yes, losing sucks, but of course we were going to lose more. If we have another offseason like we had this past year, and continue to add more young talent, I think we'll be moving in the right direction.
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
Well if sucking on a historic magnitude is what the rebuild requires, Hue’s play calling makes total sense.
-
Maybe we are being too hard on this FO? I mean it's not like they waived a WR that has gone on to be an absolute studd.......... Oh, sorry Taylor Gabriel, I didn't see you there.
Never mind, carry on bashing them.
-
I am happy we're doing the rebuild. Starting over every year or two was never going to work, and it never will.
Our roster is younger and more talented than rosters in recent history. Plus we still have a lot of capital (cap space, picks) moving forward.
Yes, losing sucks, but of course we were going to lose more. If we have another offseason like we had this past year, and continue to add more young talent, I think we'll be moving in the right direction.
Our roster is younger and more talented than rosters in recent history.
How is it more talented then previous rosters? Being young doesn't = talent.
Elliot, Bosa, Wentz, and the other guys we've passed on, they were talented.
If we keep trading down, we'll never get elite playmakers. And elite playmakers and leaders is what we need instead of a bunch of practice squad players, few rookies, and kenny britt
-
love the fans that don't see Sheet. these are the same assholes who wear london fog rain coats on a bright sunny day, stop at dunkin donuts at exactly 6:15 am drive in the left lane with their left blinker on, on the highway doing 54 mph, but cut three cars off as he exits on the right (same way everyday). walks like a lemming to his cubicle and at 5;00 he does everything again, just on the other side of the road going in diff direction.
oh that fan stood up and applauded when the whale was announced team president (holmgren) and annointed him king. whilst the true fans with a little knowledge saw right thru that Sheet.....just like now with the hue/harvard experiment.
but go ahead sparky! make another pickle sandwhich and tell how good thing are going to get!!!
datta boy!! good. dog!
-
I am happy we're doing the rebuild. Starting over every year or two was never going to work, and it never will.
Our roster is younger and more talented than rosters in recent history. Plus we still have a lot of capital (cap space, picks) moving forward.
Yes, losing sucks, but of course we were going to lose more. If we have another offseason like we had this past year, and continue to add more young talent, I think we'll be moving in the right direction.
I am happy we're doing the rebuild. Starting over every year or two was never going to work, and it never will.
Our roster is younger and more talented than rosters in recent history. Plus we still have a lot of capital (cap space, picks) moving forward.
Yes, losing sucks, but of course we were going to lose more. If we have another offseason like we had this past year, and continue to add more young talent, I think we'll be moving in the right direction.
here's sparky right now!
sit.
-
I'm amazed at the talent this FO has picked up. And with the new HC it just like Farmer never left and Pettine got worse. Shame on Jimmy StupidShmuckinghillbilly
-
-
IMO, if the front office picked the player, that player is forever linked to that FO. I get the scouting thing, but at the end of the day, this FO wrote the name down and turned in the card.
Not sure a baseball meme makes your case, but whatever....
IMO, if the front office picked the player, that player is forever linked to that FO. I get the scouting thing, but at the end of the day, this FO wrote the name down and turned in the card.
Rather axiomatic...
The bottom line here is that Sashi and his pompous Harvard mates stripped the roster beyond what was needed. They CREATED holes in our team where there were none. This made the 'rebuild' MUCH harder and made the team worse. Instead of just trying to upgrade the holes that we HAD, they had to ALSO upgrade the holes that they CREATED. I'm sorry but I just cannot be convinced that THAT is the wicked smaaat way to do it. It does not pass the logic test.
Now, of course, it's too late. We've no choice BUT to draft young players and try to coach them up to be good veterans. (in which case the team will 'get old' together, which will lead them to strip it all down again, I suppose)
What holes did this FO create? I haven't committed mud's list to memory...
As to the underlined comment... your supposition is simply off the mark. You are looking at the roster rolling period taco has been preaching. He's right about that, he's just early. Add that as fortunes turn thru use of the draft while we still have cap space to spend, we will attract UFAs to fill holes/upgrade key positions... quality FAs, not those whose choices are us or unemployment.
But it's the rolling use of the draft, turning over the non-core roster every third or 4th year that keeps us from growing old en masse.
Maybe we are being too hard on this FO? I mean it's not like they waived a WR that has gone on to be an absolute studd.......... Oh, sorry Taylor Gabriel, I didn't see you there.
I'll flesh out war's crytic reply...
Gabe is a solid #3 on a team with a first-ballot #1, Julio, and a strong #2, Sanu. Look at the boxscores when either of both of them are out and get back to us. And that's not to mention his QB...
This request comes from a Gabe fan... a realistic Gabe fan.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Not sure a baseball meme makes your case, but whatever....
IMO, if the front office picked the player, that player is forever linked to that FO. I get the scouting thing, but at the end of the day, this FO wrote the name down and turned in the card.
Rather axiomatic...
The bottom line here is that Sashi and his pompous Harvard mates stripped the roster beyond what was needed. They CREATED holes in our team where there were none. This made the 'rebuild' MUCH harder and made the team worse. Instead of just trying to upgrade the holes that we HAD, they had to ALSO upgrade the holes that they CREATED. I'm sorry but I just cannot be convinced that THAT is the wicked smaaat way to do it. It does not pass the logic test.
Now, of course, it's too late. We've no choice BUT to draft young players and try to coach them up to be good veterans. (in which case the team will 'get old' together, which will lead them to strip it all down again, I suppose)
What holes did this FO create? I haven't committed mud's list to memory...
As to the underlined comment... your supposition is simply off the mark. You are looking at the roster rolling period taco has been preaching. He's right about that, he's just early. Add that as fortunes turn thru use of the draft while we still have cap space to spend, we will attract UFAs to fill holes/upgrade key positions... quality FAs, not those whose choices are us or unemployment.
But it's the rolling use of the draft, turning over the non-core roster every third or 4th year that keeps us from growing old en masse.
Maybe we are being too hard on this FO? I mean it's not like they waived a WR that has gone on to be an absolute studd.......... Oh, sorry Taylor Gabriel, I didn't see you there.
I'll flesh out war's crytic reply...
Gabe is a solid #3 on a team with a first-ballot #1, Julio, and a strong #2, Sanu. Look at the boxscores when either of both of them are out and get back to us. And that's not to mention his QB...
This request comes from a Gabe fan... a realistic Gabe fan.
-
Not sure a baseball meme makes your case, but whatever....
IMO, if the front office picked the player, that player is forever linked to that FO. I get the scouting thing, but at the end of the day, this FO wrote the name down and turned in the card.
Rather axiomatic...
The bottom line here is that Sashi and his pompous Harvard mates stripped the roster beyond what was needed. They CREATED holes in our team where there were none. This made the 'rebuild' MUCH harder and made the team worse. Instead of just trying to upgrade the holes that we HAD, they had to ALSO upgrade the holes that they CREATED. I'm sorry but I just cannot be convinced that THAT is the wicked smaaat way to do it. It does not pass the logic test.
Now, of course, it's too late. We've no choice BUT to draft young players and try to coach them up to be good veterans. (in which case the team will 'get old' together, which will lead them to strip it all down again, I suppose)
What holes did this FO create? I haven't committed mud's list to memory...
As to the underlined comment... your supposition is simply off the mark. You are looking at the roster rolling period taco has been preaching. He's right about that, he's just early. Add that as fortunes turn thru use of the draft while we still have cap space to spend, we will attract UFAs to fill holes/upgrade key positions... quality FAs, not those whose choices are us or unemployment.
But it's the rolling use of the draft, turning over the non-core roster every third or 4th year that keeps us from growing old en masse.
Maybe we are being too hard on this FO? I mean it's not like they waived a WR that has gone on to be an absolute studd.......... Oh, sorry Taylor Gabriel, I didn't see you there.
I'll flesh out war's crytic reply...
Gabe is a solid #3 on a team with a first-ballot #1, Julio, and a strong #2, Sanu. Look at the boxscores when either of both of them are out and get back to us. And that's not to mention his QB...
This request comes from a Gabe fan... a realistic Gabe fan.
What holes did this FO create? I haven't committed mud's list to memory...
Well, as I recall, straight out of the box we lost - Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz, Travis Benjamin, Tashuan Gipson and Johnson Bademosi. Now, obviously Mack didn't want anything more to do with the Browns and there was no coaxing him to stay (and honestly, except for Browns homers, who could blame him?).
If you recall, our OL and safeties were horrid. And although Benjamin wasn't a world beater wouldn't we love to have him right about now?
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
-
Had to Google this...... and still don't know what it means.
Pretty sure axiomatic is the antonym of equiomatic. One's on the axis and the other is on the equator.
-
Lots of good debate up in here. Been a good read, good thinking stuff.
I would argue that the Billy Beane/Theo Epstein/moneyball thing does play into this however. Not that it will be effective, but it mirrors an attempt that has been tried with baseball and has worked there, and the Browns do have a dude with that background calling shots.
I also get that the playing days of an NFL player are much less than a baseball player though too. Somewhere there must be a positional breakdown on playing days shelf life though, right? What is it for an O lineman?
The Cubs basically drafted and developed their hitters, and then payed a lot of money for already developed pitching. I would argue that a hitters playing shelf life is longer than a pitchers. Strain on the arm and all, throwing a ball 90 plus a thousand plus times a year, Tommy John.
I'm trying to identify something this FO has done definitively and purposefully to improve this team, and l see the Oline. Extending Bitonio, signing Zeitler and Tretter, and l truly believe it's an inprovement over last year.
l also see improvement on the defensive line. I'm no expert, but there is the saying the game is "won and lost in the trenches." Perhaps we are proving that theory wrong?
Just looking for hope here. I'm not a huge fan of how we burnt it down either but hoping there is a silver lining somewhere.
-
What holes did this FO create? I haven't committed mud's list to memory...
Well, as I recall, straight out of the box we lost - Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz, Travis Benjamin, Tashuan Gipson and Johnson Bademosi. Now, obviously Mack didn't want anything more to do with the Browns and there was no coaxing him to stay (and honestly, except for Browns homers, who could blame him?).
If you recall, our OL and safeties were horrid. And although Benjamin wasn't a world beater wouldn't we love to have him right about now?
Well, as I recall, straight out of the box we lost - Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz, Travis Benjamin, Tashuan Gipson and Johnson Bademosi. Now, obviously Mack didn't want anything more to do with the Browns and there was no coaxing him to stay (and honestly, except for Browns homers, who could blame him?).
If you recall, our OL and safeties were horrid. And although Benjamin wasn't a world beater wouldn't we love to have him right about now?
Schwartz has been duly replaced and done so on the cheap, and didn't want to stay with us anyway. Mack was out the door, as you said. Benjamin sucked and would suck if we were saddling him with #1 duties right now (which we would be). Bademosi is a 3rd stringer. Gipson supports your point. That's about it.
-
Well, as I recall, straight out of the box we lost - Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz, Travis Benjamin, Tashuan Gipson and Johnson Bademosi. Now, obviously Mack didn't want anything more to do with the Browns and there was no coaxing him to stay (and honestly, except for Browns homers, who could blame him?).
If you recall, our OL and safeties were horrid. And although Benjamin wasn't a world beater wouldn't we love to have him right about now?
Schwartz has been duly replaced and done so on the cheap, and didn't want to stay with us anyway. Mack was out the door, as you said. Benjamin sucked and would suck if we were saddling him with #1 duties right now (which we would be). Bademosi is a 3rd stringer. Gipson supports your point. That's about it.
Schwartz has been duly replaced
By who? Mr. Penalty? #72.
And if we didn't have to replace Schwartz could we have drafted for another position?
And you don't think Benjamin is better than these guys that we've gotta be playing? Heck, we're playing a guy that we signed off another team's practice squad.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login