If you hate the Cleveland Browns rebuild, ignore this: Podcast
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I am happy we're doing the rebuild. Starting over every year or two was never going to work, and it never will.
Our roster is younger and more talented than rosters in recent history. Plus we still have a lot of capital (cap space, picks) moving forward.
Yes, losing sucks, but of course we were going to lose more. If we have another offseason like we had this past year, and continue to add more young talent, I think we'll be moving in the right direction.
I am happy we're doing the rebuild. Starting over every year or two was never going to work, and it never will.
Our roster is younger and more talented than rosters in recent history. Plus we still have a lot of capital (cap space, picks) moving forward.
Yes, losing sucks, but of course we were going to lose more. If we have another offseason like we had this past year, and continue to add more young talent, I think we'll be moving in the right direction.
here's sparky right now!
sit.
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I'm amazed at the talent this FO has picked up. And with the new HC it just like Farmer never left and Pettine got worse. Shame on Jimmy StupidShmuckinghillbilly
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IMO, if the front office picked the player, that player is forever linked to that FO. I get the scouting thing, but at the end of the day, this FO wrote the name down and turned in the card.
Not sure a baseball meme makes your case, but whatever....
IMO, if the front office picked the player, that player is forever linked to that FO. I get the scouting thing, but at the end of the day, this FO wrote the name down and turned in the card.
Rather axiomatic...
The bottom line here is that Sashi and his pompous Harvard mates stripped the roster beyond what was needed. They CREATED holes in our team where there were none. This made the 'rebuild' MUCH harder and made the team worse. Instead of just trying to upgrade the holes that we HAD, they had to ALSO upgrade the holes that they CREATED. I'm sorry but I just cannot be convinced that THAT is the wicked smaaat way to do it. It does not pass the logic test.
Now, of course, it's too late. We've no choice BUT to draft young players and try to coach them up to be good veterans. (in which case the team will 'get old' together, which will lead them to strip it all down again, I suppose)
What holes did this FO create? I haven't committed mud's list to memory...
As to the underlined comment... your supposition is simply off the mark. You are looking at the roster rolling period taco has been preaching. He's right about that, he's just early. Add that as fortunes turn thru use of the draft while we still have cap space to spend, we will attract UFAs to fill holes/upgrade key positions... quality FAs, not those whose choices are us or unemployment.
But it's the rolling use of the draft, turning over the non-core roster every third or 4th year that keeps us from growing old en masse.
Maybe we are being too hard on this FO? I mean it's not like they waived a WR that has gone on to be an absolute studd.......... Oh, sorry Taylor Gabriel, I didn't see you there.
I'll flesh out war's crytic reply...
Gabe is a solid #3 on a team with a first-ballot #1, Julio, and a strong #2, Sanu. Look at the boxscores when either of both of them are out and get back to us. And that's not to mention his QB...
This request comes from a Gabe fan... a realistic Gabe fan.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Not sure a baseball meme makes your case, but whatever....
IMO, if the front office picked the player, that player is forever linked to that FO. I get the scouting thing, but at the end of the day, this FO wrote the name down and turned in the card.
Rather axiomatic...
The bottom line here is that Sashi and his pompous Harvard mates stripped the roster beyond what was needed. They CREATED holes in our team where there were none. This made the 'rebuild' MUCH harder and made the team worse. Instead of just trying to upgrade the holes that we HAD, they had to ALSO upgrade the holes that they CREATED. I'm sorry but I just cannot be convinced that THAT is the wicked smaaat way to do it. It does not pass the logic test.
Now, of course, it's too late. We've no choice BUT to draft young players and try to coach them up to be good veterans. (in which case the team will 'get old' together, which will lead them to strip it all down again, I suppose)
What holes did this FO create? I haven't committed mud's list to memory...
As to the underlined comment... your supposition is simply off the mark. You are looking at the roster rolling period taco has been preaching. He's right about that, he's just early. Add that as fortunes turn thru use of the draft while we still have cap space to spend, we will attract UFAs to fill holes/upgrade key positions... quality FAs, not those whose choices are us or unemployment.
But it's the rolling use of the draft, turning over the non-core roster every third or 4th year that keeps us from growing old en masse.
Maybe we are being too hard on this FO? I mean it's not like they waived a WR that has gone on to be an absolute studd.......... Oh, sorry Taylor Gabriel, I didn't see you there.
I'll flesh out war's crytic reply...
Gabe is a solid #3 on a team with a first-ballot #1, Julio, and a strong #2, Sanu. Look at the boxscores when either of both of them are out and get back to us. And that's not to mention his QB...
This request comes from a Gabe fan... a realistic Gabe fan.
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Not sure a baseball meme makes your case, but whatever....
IMO, if the front office picked the player, that player is forever linked to that FO. I get the scouting thing, but at the end of the day, this FO wrote the name down and turned in the card.
Rather axiomatic...
The bottom line here is that Sashi and his pompous Harvard mates stripped the roster beyond what was needed. They CREATED holes in our team where there were none. This made the 'rebuild' MUCH harder and made the team worse. Instead of just trying to upgrade the holes that we HAD, they had to ALSO upgrade the holes that they CREATED. I'm sorry but I just cannot be convinced that THAT is the wicked smaaat way to do it. It does not pass the logic test.
Now, of course, it's too late. We've no choice BUT to draft young players and try to coach them up to be good veterans. (in which case the team will 'get old' together, which will lead them to strip it all down again, I suppose)
What holes did this FO create? I haven't committed mud's list to memory...
As to the underlined comment... your supposition is simply off the mark. You are looking at the roster rolling period taco has been preaching. He's right about that, he's just early. Add that as fortunes turn thru use of the draft while we still have cap space to spend, we will attract UFAs to fill holes/upgrade key positions... quality FAs, not those whose choices are us or unemployment.
But it's the rolling use of the draft, turning over the non-core roster every third or 4th year that keeps us from growing old en masse.
Maybe we are being too hard on this FO? I mean it's not like they waived a WR that has gone on to be an absolute studd.......... Oh, sorry Taylor Gabriel, I didn't see you there.
I'll flesh out war's crytic reply...
Gabe is a solid #3 on a team with a first-ballot #1, Julio, and a strong #2, Sanu. Look at the boxscores when either of both of them are out and get back to us. And that's not to mention his QB...
This request comes from a Gabe fan... a realistic Gabe fan.
What holes did this FO create? I haven't committed mud's list to memory...
Well, as I recall, straight out of the box we lost - Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz, Travis Benjamin, Tashuan Gipson and Johnson Bademosi. Now, obviously Mack didn't want anything more to do with the Browns and there was no coaxing him to stay (and honestly, except for Browns homers, who could blame him?).
If you recall, our OL and safeties were horrid. And although Benjamin wasn't a world beater wouldn't we love to have him right about now?
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
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Had to Google this...... and still don't know what it means.
Pretty sure axiomatic is the antonym of equiomatic. One's on the axis and the other is on the equator.
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Lots of good debate up in here. Been a good read, good thinking stuff.
I would argue that the Billy Beane/Theo Epstein/moneyball thing does play into this however. Not that it will be effective, but it mirrors an attempt that has been tried with baseball and has worked there, and the Browns do have a dude with that background calling shots.
I also get that the playing days of an NFL player are much less than a baseball player though too. Somewhere there must be a positional breakdown on playing days shelf life though, right? What is it for an O lineman?
The Cubs basically drafted and developed their hitters, and then payed a lot of money for already developed pitching. I would argue that a hitters playing shelf life is longer than a pitchers. Strain on the arm and all, throwing a ball 90 plus a thousand plus times a year, Tommy John.
I'm trying to identify something this FO has done definitively and purposefully to improve this team, and l see the Oline. Extending Bitonio, signing Zeitler and Tretter, and l truly believe it's an inprovement over last year.
l also see improvement on the defensive line. I'm no expert, but there is the saying the game is "won and lost in the trenches." Perhaps we are proving that theory wrong?
Just looking for hope here. I'm not a huge fan of how we burnt it down either but hoping there is a silver lining somewhere.
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What holes did this FO create? I haven't committed mud's list to memory...
Well, as I recall, straight out of the box we lost - Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz, Travis Benjamin, Tashuan Gipson and Johnson Bademosi. Now, obviously Mack didn't want anything more to do with the Browns and there was no coaxing him to stay (and honestly, except for Browns homers, who could blame him?).
If you recall, our OL and safeties were horrid. And although Benjamin wasn't a world beater wouldn't we love to have him right about now?
Well, as I recall, straight out of the box we lost - Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz, Travis Benjamin, Tashuan Gipson and Johnson Bademosi. Now, obviously Mack didn't want anything more to do with the Browns and there was no coaxing him to stay (and honestly, except for Browns homers, who could blame him?).
If you recall, our OL and safeties were horrid. And although Benjamin wasn't a world beater wouldn't we love to have him right about now?
Schwartz has been duly replaced and done so on the cheap, and didn't want to stay with us anyway. Mack was out the door, as you said. Benjamin sucked and would suck if we were saddling him with #1 duties right now (which we would be). Bademosi is a 3rd stringer. Gipson supports your point. That's about it.
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Well, as I recall, straight out of the box we lost - Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz, Travis Benjamin, Tashuan Gipson and Johnson Bademosi. Now, obviously Mack didn't want anything more to do with the Browns and there was no coaxing him to stay (and honestly, except for Browns homers, who could blame him?).
If you recall, our OL and safeties were horrid. And although Benjamin wasn't a world beater wouldn't we love to have him right about now?
Schwartz has been duly replaced and done so on the cheap, and didn't want to stay with us anyway. Mack was out the door, as you said. Benjamin sucked and would suck if we were saddling him with #1 duties right now (which we would be). Bademosi is a 3rd stringer. Gipson supports your point. That's about it.
Schwartz has been duly replaced
By who? Mr. Penalty? #72.
And if we didn't have to replace Schwartz could we have drafted for another position?
And you don't think Benjamin is better than these guys that we've gotta be playing? Heck, we're playing a guy that we signed off another team's practice squad.
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Shon Coleman. PFF 28th ranked tackle. Schwartz is 23rd. Schwartz is also 3 years older.
I didn't say Benjamin isn't better. But we saw what happens when he's saddled with #1 WR duties, and it isn't pretty. Yeah, he does ok being the number 3 for a borderline HoF QB. And you take that as some indication that he would be lighting it up for us? Give me a break.
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Pretty sure axiomatic is the antonym of equiomatic. One's on the axis and the other is on the equator.
Damn, now I had to Google all of that too............
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Pretty sure axiomatic is the antonym of equiomatic. One's on the axis and the other is on the equator.
Damn, now I had to Google all of that too............
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What holes did this FO create? I haven't committed mud's list to memory...
Well, as I recall, straight out of the box we lost - Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz, Travis Benjamin, Tashuan Gipson and Johnson Bademosi. Now, obviously Mack didn't want anything more to do with the Browns and there was no coaxing him to stay (and honestly, except for Browns homers, who could blame him?).
If you recall, our OL and safeties were horrid. And although Benjamin wasn't a world beater wouldn't we love to have him right about now?
Well, as I recall, straight out of the box we lost - Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz, Travis Benjamin, Tashuan Gipson and Johnson Bademosi. Now, obviously Mack didn't want anything more to do with the Browns and there was no coaxing him to stay (and honestly, except for Browns homers, who could blame him?).
If you recall, our OL and safeties were horrid. And although Benjamin wasn't a world beater wouldn't we love to have him right about now?
Mitch is not missed... not this year anyway. And his replacement lat year, Paz, who you did not mention, did a credible job. I miss Paz due to his OG/OT swingman capability.
Gip? Huge question about him coming off injury. His play in his final season as a Brown did fall off from prior season in which he was hurt. That said he seems to be playing well again and would definitely fill a need in centerfield.
Bade? Hadn't crossed my mind. Very limited use in Detroit last season and not seeing the field this season in NE.
Benji... sure... I'd like to have him. He's rounded into a much better, much more well-rounded WR then I ever thought he would... and he can take the top off a D... something we lack. Not a bad punt return option either.
Not sure about your "horrid" timeframe, but in the age of Erving, yes, we were bad... and it was not all on Cam as we were also hurt. Bito's last full season, his only full season was his 2014 rookie year. Then there was Mack and his leg... and McQuistan... and...
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Lots of good debate up in here. Been a good read, good thinking stuff.
I would argue that the Billy Beane/Theo Epstein/moneyball thing does play into this however. Not that it will be effective, but it mirrors an attempt that has been tried with baseball and has worked there, and the Browns do have a dude with that background calling shots.
I also get that the playing days of an NFL player are much less than a baseball player though too. Somewhere there must be a positional breakdown on playing days shelf life though, right? What is it for an O lineman?
The Cubs basically drafted and developed their hitters, and then payed a lot of money for already developed pitching. I would argue that a hitters playing shelf life is longer than a pitchers. Strain on the arm and all, throwing a ball 90 plus a thousand plus times a year, Tommy John.
I'm trying to identify something this FO has done definitively and purposefully to improve this team, and l see the Oline. Extending Bitonio, signing Zeitler and Tretter, and l truly believe it's an inprovement over last year.
l also see improvement on the defensive line. I'm no expert, but there is the saying the game is "won and lost in the trenches." Perhaps we are proving that theory wrong?
Just looking for hope here. I'm not a huge fan of how we burnt it down either but hoping there is a silver lining somewhere.
I'm trying to identify something this FO has done definitively and purposefully to improve this team, and l see the Oline. Extending Bitonio, signing Zeitler and Tretter, and l truly believe it's an inprovement over last year.
l also see improvement on the defensive line. I'm no expert, but there is the saying the game is "won and lost in the trenches." Perhaps we are proving that theory wrong?
#Front2Back&Inside-Out
The OL is foundational. It is where NFL longevity is strongest. But that is not to say it is the end-all, be-all in and of itself. It's a great place to start. Inside we invested in OC and OG, and are cultivating OTs. While OC may not yet be solved, it has been adressed and in a manner that met with pretty wide optimism, if not outright approval, around here. The next "out" from the OL are TEs and we've invested, pretty wisely in my view, there as well. The next "out is WR... the next "back" is QB. Stay tuned...
The DL parallels the OL. We've invested in DTs and DEs. LBs? We're better set outside than inside. Ditto for the secondary. Look for investment at MLB and FS in 2018.
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