Hogans Heroes

[jiggins7919]

Ideally (with the benefit of hindsight), Hogan would've started last week against a relatively soft and forgiving Jets defense in Cleveland.  Hogan is going to get his 2nd start of his career AT Houston, and that doesn't sound like very much fun.  Yes, JJ Watt is out, but that doesn't mean the Texans' defense is any less potent.  They had two awful games against two RED HOT QB's in Alex Smith and Tom Brady, and that's nothing to be ashamed of if you ask me.  They shut down Mariota (and his backup), and they kept Andy Dalton out of the end zone (same guy who looked like Mr. Universe against us).  They also made life difficult for Bortles, who didn't have to do much because Houston started Savage who couldn't do a darn thing.  I say all of this because Hogan is going to have a difficult time against a Texans defense who prides itself on keeping the score low and terrorizing marginal QB's.  

Godspeed Mr. Hogan, you're not going into a pleasant scene this weekend.  Oh, for an added bonus, we get to see the QB we SHOULD'VE drafted.  So that's fun.  

[TexasAg1969]

So Hogan starts Sunday.

[domcucch1994]

I really enjoyed the way Hogan played vs the Jets.

I thought Kizer would ride his preseason momentum into the regular season, but he has clearly regressed since week 1..  He can move the ball, but somehow turns it over almost every single time in the redzone..

Maybe Kizer will benefit from sitting a year, but with this upcoming draft, we might be looking at another QB(Which I think would be a bad mistake.. We need Barkley to complement Duke Johnson, and a solid WR if Gordon doesn't come back)

Hogan has looked good aside from 2 errant throws. He throws the ball with accuracy, he can move.

Might not have the strongest arm, but he can get it done..

I'd say stick with him for the long haul.. Dude is only 24, is 6'3", can pass, run, and make all his reads..

Imagine a healthy CC, Gordon, Saquon Barkley, Duke, Njoku, and DeValve all out there..
We would have a legitimate offense..

[hoorta]

@texasag1969 said:

So Hogan starts Sunday.

Yuppers, it's official. Wasn't exactly rocket science Hue, don't over think it. Time to ride this pony to see what he's got. Seasons already in the dumpster. Hogan plays well, Kizer sits a spell. He sucks or gets hurt, you bring back Kizer. If Deshone continues to stink, then you know you have to go Qb high in the 2018 draft. Win\win in my book.

Plus, no telling if Kevin has reached his ceiling yet. LoL, PO try to remain calm. Once upon a time, the Browns had this 17th round draft pick qb that turned into the league MVP. Wasn't exactly a cannon arm either.

& Tour- I'll just say this- I'm not expecting Hogan to be "The Savior" by any means. For all I know, you could be right and he's a newer edition of Charlie Frye. BUT- I got damn tired of seeing Kizer making stupid (OK, rookie) after stupid mistakes that were costing us games. Good for the team psyche too. How do you think the guys on our defense felt when we got in the Red Zone- we're gonna score this time, and TURNOVER. LIke oh s**t, here we go again? 

[Dutch Oven]

At this point I'm all for Hogan starting. He gives the team a better chance at winning, and at this point I'm not sure what Kizer is getting out of playing so poorly.

But I'm confused by all this "Black Tarkenton" talk. How can Kizer hold the ball too long looking in vain for someone to be open, instead of throwing the ball away AND be someone who looks to run at the first sign of trouble?

[SD_Tom]

If the Browns had any qb even close to as good as Fran Tarkenton  playing for us in the last 20 years  the city would need a time out from jerking each other off. 

[Westside Steve]

I was yelling you dumb SOB why did you cut Cody Parkey?

WSS

[CaineDeSoulis]

@tour2ma said:

As a courtesy to a Noob, I split your post out of the pack...

The difference in ceilings seen is all due to physical tools. They give Kizer the higher ceiling... a much higher ceiling IMO. Right now Hogan has the higher floor.

As for Kizer being the future... I can't speak for everyone here, but more than a few of us that want to continue to see him start do not know if he will be our future. That is why we want to see him start... to see what he can become.

As for Hogan being the future. I see him as being as good as he will ever be... right now. We can add pieces and support him better and win a little more thus achieving mediocrity, but that's it. That's what I see.

If you want to compete a little better in the short-term, start Hogan. If you want to win in the long-term, you start Kizer. Only one of them has the talent, the capacity to forestall spending one or more #1's on a QB in the 2018 Draft.

Do you have any empirical evidence that he has better physical tools or are you just making things up again? Are there ANY stats from college that would indicate such? combine perhaps?
#fakenews

The pieces are there for him to be a good QB same as Hogan. Hogan's problem was his throwing motion was an complete mess. Kizers problem is his complete inconsistent ability his immature attitude and poor accuracy.

 

[hoorta]

@cainedesoulis said:

Do you have any empirical evidence that he has better physical tools or are you just making things up again? Are there ANY stats from college that would indicate such? combine perhaps?
#fakenews

The pieces are there for him to be a good QB same as Hogan. Hogan's problem was his throwing motion was an complete mess. Kizers problem is his complete inconsistent ability his immature attitude and poor accuracy.

Hue is enamored of QBs with big arms that can stretch the field. FLAW. Ahem- Hue "felt the earth move" when he saw RG III running around in a t-shirt and shorts with no pressure on him. I knew right then and there- that workout was less than worthless. Anyone notice- been thinking about this one- a more than casual similarity between Griffin and Kizer? I sure do.  You fit your offense to the talent on hand. The great coaches do- or are you just a "system" guy Hue trying to pound square pegs into round holes? 

[SD_Tom]

Browns will definitely win this weekend because the Indians lost horribly. 

 Kulber lost both starts this series... It's opposite week apparently. 

[stillmotion]

@hoorta said:

Hue is enamored of QBs with big arms that can stretch the field. FLAW. Ahem- Hue "felt the earth move" when he saw RG III running around in a t-shirt and shorts with no pressure on him. I knew right then and there- that workout was less than worthless. Anyone notice- been thinking about this one- a more than casual similarity between Griffin and Kizer? I sure do.  You fit your offense to the talent on hand. The great coaches do- or are you just a "system" guy Hue trying to pound square pegs into round holes? 

NFL.com's Jeff Darlington reports Browns coach Hue Jackson came away extremely impressed with Colin Kaepernick following his free agent workout.

Per Darlington, Jackson told a group of Browns executives that it felt like Kaepernick "Was like a Greek God" after watching him "roll out in a full sprint to throw a pass ." Jackson reportedly called Kaepernick's accuracy in passing drills "heavenly," and was "astonished" in general. We don't doubt Colin is still a freak of nature in shorts and t-shirts, but it wasn't just personal animus that got him released in San Francisco.  Colin's natural gifts are rare in the history of football, but there's a lot standing between him and even resembling his elite younger form.

[hoorta]

@dutch-oven said:

At this point I'm all for Hogan starting. He gives the team a better chance at winning, and at this point I'm not sure what Kizer is getting out of playing so poorly.

But I'm confused by all this "Black Tarkenton" talk. How can Kizer hold the ball too long looking in vain for someone to be open, instead of throwing the ball away AND be someone who looks to run at the first sign of trouble?

Ghoolie double talk...  

@stillmotion said:

NFL.com's Jeff Darlington reports Browns coach Hue Jackson came away extremely impressed with Colin Kaepernick following his free agent workout.

Per Darlington, Jackson told a group of Browns executives that it felt like Kaepernick "Was like a Greek God" after watching him "roll out in a full sprint to throw a pass ." Jackson reportedly called Kaepernick's accuracy in passing drills "heavenly," and was "astonished" in general. We don't doubt Colin is still a freak of nature in shorts and t-shirts, but it wasn't just personal animus that got him released in San Francisco.  Colin's natural gifts are rare in the history of football, but there's a lot standing between him and even resembling his elite younger form.

Note to Sashi- tell Hue to cool it evaluating QBs,. first the earth moving, now Greek God? shove that evaluation up your a$$ Hue. I'll puke if the Browns sign this bum. 

EDIT: and what ya gonna do about Deshone Hue? He's all of a sudden not Greek Godly enough for ya? Same stupid crap as with Griffin. Beware of workouts with no live pass rush!!!

[miktoxic]

kizer is the physically most gifted QB on the roster. PHYSICALLY. now between the ears he's #3. can't teach a pig how not to look like a pig.

i would trade a couple of bums on whatever side of the ball for brad kaaya from the panthers tomorrow.

[Westside Steve]

@hoorta said:

Ghoolie double talk...  

Note to Sashi- tell Hue to cool it evaluating QBs,. first the earth moving, now Greek God? shove that evaluation up your a$$ Hue. I'll puke if the Browns sign this bum. 

Note to Sashi, quit Pickin bums and making the coach work with them.

@miktoxic said:

kizer is the physically most gifted QB on the roster. PHYSICALLY. now between the ears he's #3. can't teach a pig how not to look like a pig.

i would trade a couple of bums on whatever side of the ball for brad kaaya from the panthers tomorrow.

Well if we are tradiing bums at least it looks like a fair trade.

WSS

[hoorta]

@miktoxic said:

kizer is the physically most gifted QB on the roster. PHYSICALLY. now between the ears he's #3. can't teach a pig how not to look like a pig.

i would trade a couple of bums on whatever side of the ball for brad kaaya from the panthers tomorrow.

Mik, don't know about Kaaya- haven't seen enough of him to make a judgement.

But you nailed the first part. There's smart (which Deshone is) and then there's football smart, which he isn't.

[wargograw]

@sd_tom said:

Browns will definitely win this weekend because the Indians lost horribly. 

 Kulber lost both starts this series... It's opposite week apparently. 

Technically one was a no-decision. 

[Tour2ma]

@hoorta said:

Tour- you're about the only one left in Kamp Kizer. Even Zombo who was big on Deshone has backed off. The PD poll was 92% in favor of starting Hogan this week. Even Hue is thinking about it after he reviewed the tape. Physical tools don't mean squat if you can't utilize them when the lights come on. How many combine workout warriors turned into flat out busts in the NFL? 

I hope I'm wrong about this, but I'm seeing another Brandon Weeden\Derek Anderson in Deshone. Granted, he's more mobile than either. Can he improve? I sure hope so- but I have extreme doubts. & yeah, I know it's a small sample size in the pros. If you think I'm throwing him under the bus prematurely, go ahead. Even TCPO said he's probably never going to have top end accuracy- and that's a glaring, fatal flaw in my book. Almost all the top qbs are in the 65% completion category. Guess who checks in @ #10 this year so far? Hogan- with the same crappy receivers Kizer's been throwing to. 

Winning in the long term with Deshone at the wheel will help us win in the long term- when we go 2-14, and draft Darnold, Allen, or Rosen in 2018.  

Even were I alone, which I am not, that wouldn't sway me, h. I'm used to it.

Deshone wasn't a "workout warrior". "The lights' don't matter... and aren't a factor... it's the light bulb in a QB's head that matters. It's not on inside Kizer... yet. It may never come one, but where he is now... the only way it can come on is thru playing. And 92% of the at 92% is willing to do anything to not lose now. They are simply "fans" tired of losing as are most here. All they know is they are tired of losing. That is the extent of their analysis. They love "the backup". Awesome...

I don't think you're prematurely doing anything. To say that I'd have to believe you'd studied Kizer first five games. I don't... if you had, then you might see he's nothing like either Wheezy or DA. TCPO's take may be correct. Any QB who is going to go deep often is never going to have "top accuracy". And Hue asks his QBs to go deep... often.

If we sacrifice knowledge of Kizer for 2 wins, then we are too stupid to deserve to win. But at least our fan base will be happy... until we fall short of even two wins...

[Tour2ma]

@suomi said:

I never indicated that I was referring to 2018 free agents.  

Bottom line:  for the best interest of the team Kizer needs to sit.  He's earned it.

So beyond 2018... based on our  2017 record... not our 2018... al-righty then...

When you are in a hole... stop digging...

@domcucch1994 said:

I really enjoyed the way Hogan played vs the Jets. I thought Kizer would ride his preseason momentum into the regular season, but he has clearly regressed since week 1..  He can move the ball, but somehow turns it over almost every single time in the redzone..

Maybe Kizer will benefit from sitting a year, but with this upcoming draft, we might be looking at another QB(Which I think would be a bad mistake.. We need Barkley to complement Duke Johnson, and a solid WR if Gordon doesn't come back). Hogan has looked good aside from 2 errant throws. He throws the ball with accuracy, he can move.

Might not have the strongest arm, but he can get it done.. I'd say stick with him for the long haul.. Dude is only 24, is 6'3", can pass, run, and make all his reads..

Imagine a healthy CC, Gordon, Saquon Barkley, Duke, Njoku, and DeValve all out there.. We would have a legitimate offense..

So Hogan is your franchise?

@hoorta said:

Tour- I'll just say this- I'm not expecting Hogan to be "The Savior" by any means. For all I know, you could be right and he's a newer edition of Charlie Frye. BUT- I got damn tired of seeing Kizer making stupid (OK, rookie) after stupid mistakes that were costing us games.

Thanks for sharing your analysis...

@cainedesoulis said:

Do you have any empirical evidence that he has better physical tools or are you just making things up again? Are there ANY stats from college that would indicate such? combine perhaps? #fakenews

The pieces are there for him to be a good QB same as Hogan. Hogan's problem was his throwing motion was an complete mess. Kizers problem is his complete inconsistent ability his immature attitude and poor accuracy.

Again? And when was the prior time(s)?

"Stats" are not the measure of physical tools, but since you want some...

		Passing
Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
Career	Notre Dame					422	695	60.7	5805	8.4	8.5	47	19	147.7
*2015	Notre Dame	Ind	SO	QB	13	210	334	62.9	2880	8.6	8.5	21	10	150.1
2016	Notre Dame	Ind	JR	QB	12	212	361	58.7	2925	8.1	8.4	26	9	145.6

And here are Hogan's...

		Passing
Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
Career	Stanford					727	1103	65.9	9385	8.5	8.7	75	29	154.6
*2012	Stanford	Pac-12	FR	QB	10	109	152	71.7	1096	7.2	7.5	9	3	147.9
*2013	Stanford	Pac-12	SO	QB	14	180	295	61.0	2630	8.9	8.7	20	10	151.5
*2014	Stanford	Pac-12	JR	QB	13	232	352	65.9	2792	7.9	8.0	19	8	145.8
*2015	Stanford	Pac-12	SR	QB	14	206	304	67.8	2867	9.4	10.0	27	8	171.0

If you think Hogan's physical tools are in the same areas code as Kizer, then you are blind. Hogan's arm talent makes Hoyer look strong-armed.

@wargograw said:

Technically one was a no-decision. 

IN a game we won... so there's that...

[PoeticG]

Tour, I don't know what that was trying to prove?

It looks like Hogan was consistent and solid, threw few picks and threw for more TDs.

I even notice that Hogan had 2 seasons where he played in 14 games.

It also appears that Kizer can't even touch Hogan's senior year Y/A. Also his 171.0 Rate is astronomical compared to Kizers.

What about these numbers screams, "Kizer has the "Physical tools" in spades over Hogan" to you?

Maybe Kizer needs to do his best Terrel Pryor impersonation... oh wait, he's not even fast.

[hoorta]

@tour2ma said:

Even were I alone, which I am not, that wouldn't sway me, h. I'm used to it.

Deshone wasn't a "workout warrior". "The lights' don't matter... and aren't a factor... it's the light bulb in a QB's head that matters. It's not on inside Kizer... yet. It may never come one, but where he is now... the only way it can come on is thru playing. And 92% of the at 92% is willing to do anything to not lose now. They are simply "fans" tired of losing as are most here. All they know is they are tired of losing. That is the extent of their analysis. They love "the backup". Awesome...

I don't think you're prematurely doing anything. To say that I'd have to believe you'd studied Kizer first five games. I don't... if you had, then you might see he's nothing like either Wheezy or DA. TCPO's take may be correct. Any QB who is going to go deep often is never going to have "top accuracy". And Hue asks his QBs to go deep... often.

If we sacrifice knowledge of Kizer for 2 wins, then we are too stupid to deserve to win. But at least our fan base will be happy... until we fall short of even two wins...

That's when Kizer comes to the rescue with his 49 QBR.  He needs to improve 50% to catch the next worst (Flacco). He's so far down in a crater, he'd need a rocket boost to even see daylight. Baby steps? I want to see some semblance he's even mediocre. Like get the ball out on time, and limit the dumb turnovers to one a game. If we go 2-14 with either Hogan or Kizer- means we're drafting a QB high 2018. If Wentz is succeeding with a dumbed down playbook, then I guess Hue is pretty dumb for not doing the same with his prized rookie. 

You're right about Wheezy or DA,  how about RG III instead? And Kizer isn't getting 3 years to prove he sucks either. 

So think Hogan is a lame arm Connor Shaw? Well, his jugs gun at the combine was 53 mph. (FWIW, Prescott was 54) Watson's was supposedly 49 mph. Hasn't seemed to hurt them much yet.