FO you are much too good to us
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http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/cleveland_may_not_be_strong_en.html
I guess it's the old "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" idea.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
I think he hit the nail on the head.
It's so easy to criticize a draft with the benefit of hindsight. It seems like after the last two drafts everyone was celebrating how well the Browns did. But since we are losing games people go back and say - "we could've drafted THAT guy. Look how great he is." But 11 other teams could've drafted Watson. The Wentz trade STILL has a first and second round pick coming from it.
I think the Sixers are obviously a great parallel. Hinkie did a better job of convincing people in Philly of his plan than this regime is here. For like 4 years people outside of Philly just made fun of "the process". And unfortunately the owner got so embarrassed he hired a "basketball guy" to see the plan through. Who knows if it'll work out. But Philly fans love that team and Colangelo (who has produced a bunch of mediocre teams in his career) has one of the most hopeful situations in the league.
We have a great cap situation, a TON of draft picks, a ton of young players (who suck at winning as all young players do), and a front office that is confident enough to actually follow through with a REAL long-term plan. It'd be a shame to hire some "football guy" to come in and blow it up.
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In the end.. It boils down to W's... No W's.. No job security... if you could call it that...
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actually that is bs. your record says you are completely without talent to be competitive? We've all seen years when the Browns defense was hopeless. They'd get run over like frogs on a highway by offense's running game. Remember the game where Jamal Lewis set a new single game rushing record vs the Browns?
You see that possible now? hell no, you don't. the pass defense needs a bit of fixing...The offense, remember when the oline as a whole got qb's killed with no time to throw? yes, qb,s held onto the ball too long, and wr's didn't get open, ...the offense needs some gamebreaking wr's. Use to be the offense and defense needed a lot of players at different positions.
Close, but no winning cigars. We're a long, long way away from the pitiful football of the past. We have a lot of young talent,but not enough, and Kizer may still be a great qb. Right now, he's a rookie kid with no pro style offense to help him from his college days.
We can stop the run, and often, for negative yards a lot of the time. That is huge. Seems to me we are long one draft and a fa or twofrom going to the playoffs.... if the Browns hadn't traded down, we would still be at least two drafts away. Patience is a virtue, at least patience with where we are NOW.
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I read the article. Now, if you can tell me that their plan is to actually attempt to FIX the QB position at the top of next years draft if DeShone doesn't look like the answer...then fine. BUT...if you can't guarantee that, then I'd like them booted the hell out of town and someone else who WILL attempt the BIG FIX at QB put in their place. An NFL team is dog $hit without a good QB. Our OL is now good enough to protect a good QB. There's no more excuses (as if phucking up the OL in 2016 and fixing it in 2017 was a viable excuse).
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
actually that is bs. your record says you are completely without talent to be competitive? We've all seen years when the Browns defense was hopeless. They'd get run over like frogs on a highway by offense's running game. Remember the game where Jamal Lewis set a new single game rushing record vs the Browns?
You see that possible now? hell no, you don't. the pass defense needs a bit of fixing...The offense, remember when the oline as a whole got qb's killed with no time to throw? yes, qb,s held onto the ball too long, and wr's didn't get open, ...the offense needs some gamebreaking wr's. Use to be the offense and defense needed a lot of players at different positions.
Close, but no winning cigars. We're a long, long way away from the pitiful football of the past. We have a lot of young talent,but not enough, and Kizer may still be a great qb. Right now, he's a rookie kid with no pro style offense to help him from his college days.
We can stop the run, and often, for negative yards a lot of the time. That is huge. Seems to me we are long one draft and a fa or twofrom going to the playoffs.... if the Browns hadn't traded down, we would still be at least two drafts away. Patience is a virtue, at least patience with where we are NOW.
remember when the oline as a whole got qb's killed with no time to throw?
Ahh yes. I remember it well. I used to call it a footrace between the DLine and the QB as to who could get to the 'drop back and pass' spot on the field first.
Remember the game where Jamal Lewis set a new single game rushing record vs the Browns?
Yup. Teams didn't even have to pass against us. I think they only DID pass so as to keep sharp....like at practice or something.
....and just this past week we set ANOTHER team record......most road losses in a row.
But I hear ya.....we're better at stopping the run in this passing league.....and we're better at protecting our bum QB's. It's just that we're worse at getting wins.
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
Is it the FO? Or is it the coaching?
From what I glean, I don't think the talent is really all that bad on this team. I really don't. It is young and inexperienced...and is lacking in a few spots....but overall, I don't see that the Browns talent takes much of a back seat to the rest of the division.
Pitts has a couple of guys, like AB and BR that are better talents than what we have at those spots....but that is about it.
Baltimore? Who do they got? Maybe Flacco.
Cincy? AJ Green and Geno Atkins?
No.....this "plan" could work from the talent acquisition standpoint.....with the addition of some real receivers and a real QB.
But my God, this team plays so poorly with the talent they have.
Can it actually be that Hue is just this bad of a coach? Can it be that Ghoolie is right about him. From the evidence I have seen, that is a big, big part of it.
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I read the article. Now, if you can tell me that their plan is to actually attempt to FIX the QB position at the top of next years draft if DeShone doesn't look like the answer...then fine. BUT...if you can't guarantee that, then I'd like them booted the hell out of town and someone else who WILL attempt the BIG FIX at QB put in their place. An NFL team is dog $hit without a good QB. Our OL is now good enough to protect a good QB. There's no more excuses (as if phucking up the OL in 2016 and fixing it in 2017 was a viable excuse).
I read the article. Now, if you can tell me that their plan is to actually attempt to FIX the QB position at the top of next years draft if DeShone doesn't look like the answer...then fine. BUT...if you can't guarantee that, then I'd like them booted the hell out of town and someone else who WILL attempt the BIG FIX at QB put in their place. An NFL team is dog $hit without a good QB. Our OL is now good enough to protect a good QB. There's no more excuses (as if phucking up the OL in 2016 and fixing it in 2017 was a viable excuse).
firstly, does it need fixed? we don't know yet. Kizer has a huge upside - does he make it? We dont' know yet. Goff didn't impress melast year at all after the draft. The trouble is, even without Kizer, I don't like Darnold or the other guy as our qb. Not impressed.
Darnold seems to not have any better an upside that Kizer has. Regardless, I'll tell you the qb I have my keen eye on for the draft in 2018 =and it isn't Rosen, Allen, Jackson, or Darnold. I would take in the first round.
It's the kid out of Northwestern. Clayton Thorson. I don't care where he's rated in next year's draft - I think he is the one qb I would take in the first round.
You can rate Rosen the #1 qb every day for ten years, I just don't like the guy. He doesn't seem a fit if I'm drafting. Thorson has really led a poorer cast to great games. I love that.
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Is it the FO? Or is it the coaching?
From what I glean, I don't think the talent is really all that bad on this team. I really don't. It is young and inexperienced...and is lacking in a few spots....but overall, I don't see that the Browns talent takes much of a back seat to the rest of the division.
Pitts has a couple of guys, like AB and BR that are better talents than what we have at those spots....but that is about it.
Baltimore? Who do they got? Maybe Flacco.
Cincy? AJ Green and Geno Atkins?
No.....this "plan" could work from the talent acquisition standpoint.....with the addition of some real receivers and a real QB.
But my God, this team plays so poorly with the talent they have.
Can it actually be that Hue is just this bad of a coach? Can it be that Ghoolie is right about him. From the evidence I have seen, that is a big, big part of it.
Is it the FO? Or is it the coaching?
From what I glean, I don't think the talent is really all that bad on this team. I really don't. It is young and inexperienced...and is lacking in a few spots....but overall, I don't see that the Browns talent takes much of a back seat to the rest of the division.
Pitts has a couple of guys, like AB and BR that are better talents than what we have at those spots....but that is about it.
Baltimore? Who do they got? Maybe Flacco.
Cincy? AJ Green and Geno Atkins?
No.....this "plan" could work from the talent acquisition standpoint.....with the addition of some real receivers and a real QB.
But my God, this team plays so poorly with the talent they have.
Can it actually be that Hue is just this bad of a coach? Can it be that Ghoolie is right about him. From the evidence I have seen, that is a big, big part of it.
I think our coaches are fine - Hue is terrific. However, I think Hue needs to hire an OC and let the OC call the plays. My Wife and I can'
sit there and predict what Hue will call. Seems that he is trying to protect Kizer by running on first and second down so much, thathe is putting Kizer in trouble on 3rd and longs. He did, finally, surprise me and threw on first down last Sunday.and Hogan was the qb. Now, what the heyl is up with that?
I will say, that as much as I respect Coleman, he wasn't on my list that draft. Like Canton Mike has told me several times, Michael Thomas was the bigger wr he wanted. Michael Thomas went in the 2nd round. The Browns went with Coleman. Wonder why. Oh,...the Browns had signed RGIII, out of Baylor, earlier that spring. Coincidence? I think not.
In two games, Michael Thomas, with the Saints, has caught 15 passes for 176 yards and two touchdowns.Did anybody on this board want them to draft the small kid out of Baylor? I don't think so. If we find out Kizer is only RGIII from another college...well,
Sorry Hue, but it's time to let somebody else pick the qb. Let me pick the next one, or just call me and ask my opinion. I want the kid
out of Northwestern. You heard it here first, on the Brownsboard. and btw, the wr I want in the first round with the other pick?
Sutton. NOT the big high ranked kid out of Notre Dame.
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I agree with the author
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I read the article. Now, if you can tell me that their plan is to actually attempt to FIX the QB position at the top of next years draft if DeShone doesn't look like the answer...then fine. BUT...if you can't guarantee that, then I'd like them booted the hell out of town and someone else who WILL attempt the BIG FIX at QB put in their place. An NFL team is dog $hit without a good QB. Our OL is now good enough to protect a good QB. There's no more excuses (as if phucking up the OL in 2016 and fixing it in 2017 was a viable excuse).
Had me for the better part of two posts in a row, cal ( anew record)... but sorry, Hue hasn't picked our last two QBs.
What are you seeing in Thorson?
I read the article. Now, if you can tell me that their plan is to actually attempt to FIX the QB position at the top of next years draft if DeShone doesn't look like the answer...then fine. BUT...if you can't guarantee that, then I'd like them booted the hell out of town and someone else who WILL attempt the BIG FIX at QB put in their place. An NFL team is dog $hit without a good QB. Our OL is now good enough to protect a good QB. There's no more excuses (as if phucking up the OL in 2016 and fixing it in 2017 was a viable excuse).
First... we flucked up the OL in 2016? Seems like misplaced blame to me...
We tried the past two drafts... spent a 3rd on Kess and a 2nd on Kizer. Once we get back to seeing what Kizer can be, and we will soon, very soon, then we will know what priority to place on the position come the 2018 draft. That I can guarantee.
Will it be the overall #1? A top 3? Likely as of now... The above pattern would even suggest a progression in that direction, but who knows for certain. We could end up loving a Day 2 guy... I'm getting there myself with one who happens to be a pocket passer. Check this set of 2017 numbers...
Passing Rushing Rk Cmp Att Pct Yds TD Int Rate Att Yds Avg TD 6 Games 158 248 63.7 1680 15 3 138.2 23 -1 0.0 0 1 W 27 39 69.2 262 3 0 151.0 3 -17 -5.7 0 2 L 39 66 59.1 259 1 0 97.1 3 0 0.0 0 3 W 30 40 75.0 455 3 1 190.3 3 10 3.3 0 4 W 19 29 65.5 273 3 0 178.7 3 6 2.0 0 5 W 24 43 55.8 182 3 2 105.1 5 17 3.4 0 6 W 19 31 61.3 249 2 0 150.1 6 -17 -2.8 0 But I am pretty much there with Rosen already... unlike cal I don't find his politics to be a barrier. That said... he just came off his worst showing of the year. Rosen has an irreverence vibe that reminds me of another feisty QB that I loved... Jim McMahon.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
remember when the oline as a whole got qb's killed with no time to throw?
Ahh yes. I remember it well. I used to call it a footrace between the DLine and the QB as to who could get to the 'drop back and pass' spot on the field first.
Remember the game where Jamal Lewis set a new single game rushing record vs the Browns?
Yup. Teams didn't even have to pass against us. I think they only DID pass so as to keep sharp....like at practice or something.
....and just this past week we set ANOTHER team record......most road losses in a row.
But I hear ya.....we're better at stopping the run in this passing league.....and we're better at protecting our bum QB's. It's just that we're worse at getting wins.
....and just this past week we set ANOTHER team record......most road losses in a row.
But I hear ya.....we're better at stopping the run in this passing league.....and we're better at protecting our bum QB's. It's just that we're worse at getting wins.
But not much worse...
And did I mention that records are made to be broken?
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Had me for the better part of two posts in a row, cal ( anew record)... but sorry, Hue hasn't picked our last two QBs.
What are you seeing in Thorson?
I read the article. Now, if you can tell me that their plan is to actually attempt to FIX the QB position at the top of next years draft if DeShone doesn't look like the answer...then fine. BUT...if you can't guarantee that, then I'd like them booted the hell out of town and someone else who WILL attempt the BIG FIX at QB put in their place. An NFL team is dog $hit without a good QB. Our OL is now good enough to protect a good QB. There's no more excuses (as if phucking up the OL in 2016 and fixing it in 2017 was a viable excuse).
First... we flucked up the OL in 2016? Seems like misplaced blame to me...
We tried the past two drafts... spent a 3rd on Kess and a 2nd on Kizer. Once we get back to seeing what Kizer can be, and we will soon, very soon, then we will know what priority to place on the position come the 2018 draft. That I can guarantee.
Will it be the overall #1? A top 3? Likely as of now... The above pattern would even suggest a progression in that direction, but who knows for certain. We could end up loving a Day 2 guy... I'm getting there myself with one who happens to be a pocket passer. Check this set of 2017 numbers...
Passing Rushing Rk Cmp Att Pct Yds TD Int Rate Att Yds Avg TD 6 Games 158 248 63.7 1680 15 3 138.2 23 -1 0.0 0 1 W 27 39 69.2 262 3 0 151.0 3 -17 -5.7 0 2 L 39 66 59.1 259 1 0 97.1 3 0 0.0 0 3 W 30 40 75.0 455 3 1 190.3 3 10 3.3 0 4 W 19 29 65.5 273 3 0 178.7 3 6 2.0 0 5 W 24 43 55.8 182 3 2 105.1 5 17 3.4 0 6 W 19 31 61.3 249 2 0 150.1 6 -17 -2.8 0 But I am pretty much there with Rosen already... unlike cal I don't find his politics to be a barrier. That said... he just came off his worst showing of the year. Rosen has an irreverence vibe that reminds me of another feisty QB that I loved... Jim McMahon.
First... we flucked up the OL in 2016? Seems like misplaced blame to me...
Everyone knew we were losing Mack. And we saw how putrid Erving was wherever Pettine stuck him, which was admittedly dumb to make the rookie play so many positions. But allowing Schwartz to walk too was too big of a bite out of our OL. We had to quickly stick a draft pick in there at RT and put the swinging gate at center (his so-called 'natural' position...of which he played 5 whole games at center in his entire college career).
That's why I say they phucked up the OL. Now, an argument can be made that they didn't know that Erving would be so bad because they were new to the team....but I would argue that there was a lot of NFL tape on him. I wasn't on this board in 2015 but on the board I was at, we ALL knew he sucked because we watched the games.....and i'm assuming that you guys here watched the same games that WE did.
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Preaching to the choir on Erving, but I have to assume you knew that. And once that experiment was completed Reuter and Fabs did better jobs at Center.
Are we missing Mitch now? Had Shon recouped from his injury and illness sooner that Week 17 last year, we wouldn't have then either. plus it's not as if Paz was a complete failure at RT.
And then our sh!t FO got a 5th for Cam... who is sucking in KC ATM.
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I'll say my piece and leave it. I think Hue needs to stay, but with an OC to call plays. I get that he is a guy known for creating great offenses, but his biggest strength is motivating and caring for his players. Those are great head coaching strengths and he just needs to focus on being the main guy. In terms of the FO, outside of hiring an actual team president, I don't see how we can change anything. I like most of the talent we have put on the field. I like how we maneuver the draft and some how trade away bad talent for draft picks. They just need to finally pull the trigger on someone. I'm not going to fault them for not taking a guy who is only showing success running a RGIII style offense. People want to be the hind sight police, but most of the media and most of the people on here applauded both drafts after the fact, most people didn't want to see Watson selected (me included).
To be quite frank, unless you are hiring a Peyton Manning to take over football operations, I think you need to give these guys 1-2 more years. People forget that Hue was the best coaching candidate available when we hired him. People forget that the two previous times we hired a coach we were stuck with our 5th and 6th best choices. All any coach will look at is Hue being promised that he will get 4 years and see that he got Sheet canned in 2 and they will know that they are better off going else where. The only way to create a stable franchise to to stick with the guys you hire to run it. If they tell you they need 4 years get things turned around, and you hire them after saying they have 4 years, you sure as Sheet better give them the 4 years to get the jobs done.
Ruining threads since 1897. -
I'll say my piece and leave it. I think Hue needs to stay, but with an OC to call plays. I get that he is a guy known for creating great offenses, but his biggest strength is motivating and caring for his players. Those are great head coaching strengths and he just needs to focus on being the main guy. In terms of the FO, outside of hiring an actual team president, I don't see how we can change anything. I like most of the talent we have put on the field. I like how we maneuver the draft and some how trade away bad talent for draft picks. They just need to finally pull the trigger on someone. I'm not going to fault them for not taking a guy who is only showing success running a RGIII style offense. People want to be the hind sight police, but most of the media and most of the people on here applauded both drafts after the fact, most people didn't want to see Watson selected (me included).
To be quite frank, unless you are hiring a Peyton Manning to take over football operations, I think you need to give these guys 1-2 more years. People forget that Hue was the best coaching candidate available when we hired him. People forget that the two previous times we hired a coach we were stuck with our 5th and 6th best choices. All any coach will look at is Hue being promised that he will get 4 years and see that he got Sheet canned in 2 and they will know that they are better off going else where. The only way to create a stable franchise to to stick with the guys you hire to run it. If they tell you they need 4 years get things turned around, and you hire them after saying they have 4 years, you sure as Sheet better give them the 4 years to get the jobs done.
To be quite frank, unless you are hiring a Peyton Manning to take over football operations,
Serious question, HB... one I've yet to receive a reply to...
What are P. Manning's qualifications to be a GM?
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To be quite frank, unless you are hiring a Peyton Manning to take over football operations,
Serious question, HB... one I've yet to receive a reply to...
What are P. Manning's qualifications to be a GM?
Serious question, HB... one I've yet to receive a reply to...
What are P. Manning's qualifications to be a GM?
I think the short, snarky, answer is, same as Elway's
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The problem that many "Doom & Gloomers" is when you trade your valuable picks to acquire more under the guise of, "hey we got this awesome plan" you can't play the hindsight is 20/20 card.
Garrett and another high pick, Shelton? Ok, no issue let that play out.
Solid LBers. Ok I'm on board with this if the 3 week Collins Concussion was nothing but a blip. The Peppers thing is crazy. The question I'd ask is, why is Peppers playing out of position and if you are a coach how do you look the other defensive players in the face and say, "dude suck it up I'm p[laying Peppers out of position to see if he might be able to play somewhere else". I tend to believe someone got a boner over his tape and measurables and thought they could plugged him in anywhere and he'd be successful. I remember Hue in post draft interviews talking about possibly playing him on offense. He's what 20th in Kickoff Returns Average and 22nd in Punt Return Average.
O-Line that looks solid. I agree but still hard to judge with a rookie QB and no "speed talent"
A raw TE? Hanging your hat on raw TE, c'mon man.
Corey Coleman, that's laughable.
RB, doesn't matter who's back there when you're down 21 with 8 in the box.
QB, with each passing week all the current crop of college QBs look worse and worse.
Trust the Process
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I'll say my piece and leave it. I think Hue needs to stay, but with an OC to call plays. I get that he is a guy known for creating great offenses, but his biggest strength is motivating and caring for his players. Those are great head coaching strengths and he just needs to focus on being the main guy. In terms of the FO, outside of hiring an actual team president, I don't see how we can change anything. I like most of the talent we have put on the field. I like how we maneuver the draft and some how trade away bad talent for draft picks. They just need to finally pull the trigger on someone. I'm not going to fault them for not taking a guy who is only showing success running a RGIII style offense. People want to be the hind sight police, but most of the media and most of the people on here applauded both drafts after the fact, most people didn't want to see Watson selected (me included).
To be quite frank, unless you are hiring a Peyton Manning to take over football operations, I think you need to give these guys 1-2 more years. People forget that Hue was the best coaching candidate available when we hired him. People forget that the two previous times we hired a coach we were stuck with our 5th and 6th best choices. All any coach will look at is Hue being promised that he will get 4 years and see that he got Sheet canned in 2 and they will know that they are better off going else where. The only way to create a stable franchise to to stick with the guys you hire to run it. If they tell you they need 4 years get things turned around, and you hire them after saying they have 4 years, you sure as Sheet better give them the 4 years to get the jobs done.
I'll say my piece and leave it. I think Hue needs to stay, but with an OC to call plays. I get that he is a guy known for creating great offenses, but his biggest strength is motivating and caring for his players. Those are great head coaching strengths and he just needs to focus on being the main guy. In terms of the FO, outside of hiring an actual team president, I don't see how we can change anything. I like most of the talent we have put on the field. I like how we maneuver the draft and some how trade away bad talent for draft picks. They just need to finally pull the trigger on someone. I'm not going to fault them for not taking a guy who is only showing success running a RGIII style offense. People want to be the hind sight police, but most of the media and most of the people on here applauded both drafts after the fact, most people didn't want to see Watson selected (me included).
To be quite frank, unless you are hiring a Peyton Manning to take over football operations, I think you need to give these guys 1-2 more years. People forget that Hue was the best coaching candidate available when we hired him. People forget that the two previous times we hired a coach we were stuck with our 5th and 6th best choices. All any coach will look at is Hue being promised that he will get 4 years and see that he got Sheet canned in 2 and they will know that they are better off going else where. The only way to create a stable franchise to to stick with the guys you hire to run it. If they tell you they need 4 years get things turned around, and you hire them after saying they have 4 years, you sure as Sheet better give them the 4 years to get the jobs done.
I’m with you on Hue, I would let him stay but he MUST hire an OC.
I like the way the FO can wheel and deal, but they need to hire someone with some NFL experience.
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