Ok are we done with hogan now?
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Hogan is 24 years old. He's still young. But we need to play Hogan now.
Maybe in three years Kizer will be ready. I get that he wants to be now. I get that he really, really, really wants to be the 'Face of the Franchise' and 'The Guy' right now, he's just not... and there really isn't any chance of that happening for Kizer any time soon. Kizer is a long term project. Cost us scrapes, practically noting in terms of our overall draft capital.
Hogan is a better player than many here want to give him credit for. At least give him another game before you guys start jumping to conclusions. I don't care where you are drafted, what overall pick a player was. Sometimes it doesn't matter. But once you are here and the work you put in- does matter, at least to me. I owe Hogan another chance to prove one way or the other what he is.
Hogan's "first start" was disappointing. But for crying out loud, seriously. He didn't throw any picks in the second half. All of his picks came in the 2nd quarter. They came in bunches. You have no idea of what he really learned internally after that game. You cannot just write him off. Every QB in the National Football League has had a bad game. Hogan has never played that poorly in all the time that he's been here. He deserves a second chance to prove himself.
Why are you soo against that? In a season that we are literally winless. At 0-6. What are you afraid of? Afraid he might succeed?>
Hogan is 24 years old. He's still young. But we need to play Hogan now.
Sorry, you're not going to get your wish.
Hogan's "first start" was disappointing. But for crying out loud, seriously. He didn't throw any picks in the second half. All of his picks came in the 2nd quarter. They came in bunches. You have no idea of what he really learned internally after that game. You cannot just write him off. Every QB in the National Football League has had a bad game. Hogan has never played that poorly in all the time that he's been here. He deserves a second chance to prove himself.
Why are you soo against that? In a season that we are literally winless. At 0-6. What are you afraid of? Afraid he might succeed?>
I'm afraid he just possibly might look as bad as he did against the Texans. Those interceptions were terrible, especially the pick-6 he threw 8 feet over Johnson's head. One of the other ints was a flutterball, and he was high on his throws all day. Soooo, sure bad game, enough to get a fifth round qb we picked up off the scrap heap benched. He was given a one game audition. If he had played like he had in previous games, he would still be starting. Unfortunately- he picked a bad time to play like crap.
As to writing him off, KC's Andy Reid did- and though I don't like to admit it, but Hue knows around 100 times more about football than I do, and he just demoted your wonder boy to third string. Be realistic- Hogan isn't going to pull a Brian Sipe out of his butt.
I saw enough of Hogan's NFL arm "strength" to last me a life time. I know you don't believe that and are sick of hearing it, but it is what it is..... Hogan's a tough dude and I personally like him, but I don't want him under center for the Browns.
Kizer was drafted in the 2nd round, and that is a pretty significant investment, so the organization needs to find out if he is what they think he is, or if he is what his ex college head coach thinks he is..... and we only have 10 more games to lose to find out.
Regarding 0-6 D Bone and Po, the season is shot. Kizer was drafted buying a lottery ticket to see if he can' improve to be the guy. Kevin may have a long career ala Colt McCoy as a backup- somewhere, maybe. And if Kizer doesn't improve, we'll know damn well we have to use (probably the #1 overall again) on the top QB in the 2018 draft. In that scenario Hogan gets cut.
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So PoG, I agree with you that you can't judge the kid off one game. But if he's not available this week, what do you recommend? We play Kizer for a week or two then say "Hogan's ribs are good, he's going to start again"? That just seems too odd for a guy who showed nothing.
It's a tricky situation, although made less tricky by our fans who love bouncing from one QB to the other.
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So PoG, I agree with you that you can't judge the kid off one game. But if he's not available this week, what do you recommend? We play Kizer for a week or two then say "Hogan's ribs are good, he's going to start again"? That just seems too odd for a guy who showed nothing.
It's a tricky situation, although made less tricky by our fans who love bouncing from one QB to the other.
So PoG, I agree with you that you can't judge the kid off one game. But if he's not available this week, what do you recommend? We play Kizer for a week or two then say "Hogan's ribs are good, he's going to start again"? That just seems too odd for a guy who showed nothing.
It's a tricky situation, although made less tricky by our fans who love bouncing from one QB to the other.
Here's the thing War- I might have given Hogan one more start. To prove the Texans game was an aberration. Hue isn't willing to delay Kizer showing anything he has- and I'm OK with that.
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Hogan wanted to go this week, but I guess the ribs are too tender. Coach thinks it's a liability while there are healthier QBs waiting to play. I think that Hogan has shown enough to get to another shot. Kizer still needs to sit, we're going to get the chance to see if he can correct some of his mistakes after just a week. Two things could happen...
A- If Kizer lights it up and gets a win, he'll probably ride with Kizer for awhile.
B- If Kizer once again struggles I expect Hogan will be healed up well enough to go start in London. He's going to be the #2 next week regardless.
Hue understands that Texans are a hot team and we were playing on the road against a tough defense. He knows Hogan and he knows Hogan wants another go. He'll get a chance if Kizer struggles. Starting Hogan last week was the right choice. He's shown he deserves a chance to be the guy, he's out played Kizer every step of the way... except in the 2nd Quarter last week... but one week under those hostile circumstances isn't a large enough sample size to accurately judge his potential.
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Most dedicated troll nominees
Ghoolie
Cal
PoG
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
Let's take that fumbled pitch on the option. Yes, it was a terrible pitch, but don't you think you could've FALLEN ON IT, CROW?
I think Crow's momentum was such that he could not just stop and fall on that poorly pitched ball. And Kizer should never have blamed Crow.
I think Crow's momentum was such that he could not just stop and fall on that poorly pitched ball. And Kizer should never have blamed Crow.
I actually agree Orion, but if you were to ask Crow, I'm sure he'd tell you he still should've secured the ball. But you're right, Kizer never should've REMOTELY blamed Crow AT ALL. Kizer needed to say he completely messed up, and move on. That's it.
The bigger problem (to me anyways) is the panicking nature of Kizer in the red zone. It was VERY evident on that pitch, and I'm guessing that same panic-stricken feeling is with Kizer whenever he's in the red zone. Obviously I have no way to know this, but it's my guess to try and explain why Kizer is the worst NFL QB in the scoring area, and it's not even close. It's to the point now where if we get into the red zone (and that's a big "if" with this team), you can bet your paycheck we're going to do the safest plays imaginable that have a low chance of success, but a lower chance of turning the ball over. The one play that might work if run correctly is the QB draw near the goal line. Heck, it works against US every darn time, so why can't we try it? Issue with this play is Kizer also panics when he runs the ball. He's missed running lanes, slid when he didn't have to, run out of bounds with yards to spare, and doesn't look comfortable AT ALL running the rock. Anyways, the point is we're not going to be running anything too special in the red zone, so expect opposing teams to put 62 players in the box to stop the run, and expect a lot of FG's attempts.....which doesn't make me feel good AT ALL because our kicker is awful and our defense gives up 7, and not 3. Good times.
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I think Crow's momentum was such that he could not just stop and fall on that poorly pitched ball. And Kizer should never have blamed Crow.
I actually agree Orion, but if you were to ask Crow, I'm sure he'd tell you he still should've secured the ball. But you're right, Kizer never should've REMOTELY blamed Crow AT ALL. Kizer needed to say he completely messed up, and move on. That's it.
The bigger problem (to me anyways) is the panicking nature of Kizer in the red zone. It was VERY evident on that pitch, and I'm guessing that same panic-stricken feeling is with Kizer whenever he's in the red zone. Obviously I have no way to know this, but it's my guess to try and explain why Kizer is the worst NFL QB in the scoring area, and it's not even close. It's to the point now where if we get into the red zone (and that's a big "if" with this team), you can bet your paycheck we're going to do the safest plays imaginable that have a low chance of success, but a lower chance of turning the ball over. The one play that might work if run correctly is the QB draw near the goal line. Heck, it works against US every darn time, so why can't we try it? Issue with this play is Kizer also panics when he runs the ball. He's missed running lanes, slid when he didn't have to, run out of bounds with yards to spare, and doesn't look comfortable AT ALL running the rock. Anyways, the point is we're not going to be running anything too special in the red zone, so expect opposing teams to put 62 players in the box to stop the run, and expect a lot of FG's attempts.....which doesn't make me feel good AT ALL because our kicker is awful and our defense gives up 7, and not 3. Good times.
I actually agree Orion, but if you were to ask Crow, I'm sure he'd tell you he still should've secured the ball. But you're right, Kizer never should've REMOTELY blamed Crow AT ALL. Kizer needed to say he completely messed up, and move on. That's it.
The bigger problem (to me anyways) is the panicking nature of Kizer in the red zone. It was VERY evident on that pitch, and I'm guessing that same panic-stricken feeling is with Kizer whenever he's in the red zone. Obviously I have no way to know this, but it's my guess to try and explain why Kizer is the worst NFL QB in the scoring area, and it's not even close. It's to the point now where if we get into the red zone (and that's a big "if" with this team), you can bet your paycheck we're going to do the safest plays imaginable that have a low chance of success, but a lower chance of turning the ball over. The one play that might work if run correctly is the QB draw near the goal line. Heck, it works against US every darn time, so why can't we try it? Issue with this play is Kizer also panics when he runs the ball. He's missed running lanes, slid when he didn't have to, run out of bounds with yards to spare, and doesn't look comfortable AT ALL running the rock. Anyways, the point is we're not going to be running anything too special in the red zone, so expect opposing teams to put 62 players in the box to stop the run, and expect a lot of FG's attempts.....which doesn't make me feel good AT ALL because our kicker is awful and our defense gives up 7, and not 3. Good times.
Meh... at this point, every time I'm in the redzone I make Kizer throw it or call whatever I would call normally.
Adapt or die young man.But, I'm sure Hue is worried about his job so he will go conservative and call safe plays which will result in a field goal and a loss, so there will be no progression for Kizer and another loss for the Browns and dumb butt Jimmy will blow it up again and we will be back here in two years talking about the next coach losing his job.
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I tend to be parochial in my view of most things in life, especially football. In other words I judge things by the values and practices I believe in, and have seen work. Whether that kind of wisdom translates into winning in the NFL who the hell knows, but it's all I got. So this Kizer kid? My opinion going in was that I didn't think he had what it takes to be a franchise QB. However, nobody can argue that his physical skill set makes him the best bet for the long term.
So after 4 games the jury says what? Kizer stinks? My parochial thinking...........Hanrati, Gilliam, and Bradshaw. Didn't it take 3 years until TB finally emerged?
My personal opinion is that once Kizer was given the team to run, he should have remained in the captain's seat no matter what. What confidence can he have now? Will he have an anxiety about being pulled if he does goof up? I think tantamount to a QB realizing his full potential is having an unflappable champion behind him, and of course the HC is the best champion a QB can have. Hue seems to be behind his QB in the beginning of the season when optimism is high, but then when the pressure caused by losing creeps in, he changes course and looks for a win by making a change. Is this purely a good coaching choice, or is it the HC getting frantic? We don't know.
Again, being only able to judge these things by my own life experiences I harken back to learning a musical instrument, and even still today, learning a difficult new piece. At first, I sound like total crap, Over and over and over I make mistakes, lose my place, and basically sound like I have never played before. But then, it comes to me and before you know it I am ripping through the piece. I think a young QB also needs to be able to log a tremendous number of screw-ups before getting yanked out of his chair. Is 5 games enough? How he hell do we know?
I thought at the time of the draft that the Browns would have a QB quagmire, and sadly, once again they do. Regardless of who we think should be playing QB for the Browns, whoever that person is, the HC is the one who unequivocally has the responsibility of making that decision. If he chooses the wrong guy it could cost him his job. However, that is part of the territory. Herein lies the root of my negative perception of Hue. For whatever the reasons, internal or external, he does not seem to be gung-ho, Socksure confident of his QB. I think a QB has a vital need to be supported by a coach like that. I don't know if the switch to Hogan and the switch back sends messages to the staff, players and FO, but my gut tells me it does. I think Hue, by not sticking to his guy and his guns has robbed this team of the kind of confidence it needs to grow.
The good news is, this is still football. Kizer goes out and has one good game and upsets a good team, and all of a sudden all this BS about pulling people and being disorganized evaporates into a distant memory.
The Browns need to catch a break. Kizer, Hue and we all need to catch a break. In my own life I have had times when every damned thing that could go wrong did, When you are in the middle of that, getting out seems impossible. This team needs a spark, a break, some good fortune; aven if it is an "On any given Sunday" kind of break. I promise you, at some point, a Browns player is going to stand up and provide that spark. Maybe Kizer rips the Titans to shreds this week. Kizer needs Hue to be behind him the rest of the way.
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I had been ignoring your posts until coming on here on my phone from Spain before signing in. This one is quite reasonable Dr.G. Enjoyed the read and I agree.
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Po,
I honestly get your passion... truly.. While I can agree with pieces of your take and add more to Hogan's case, I just can't agree with your bottom line here.
- Mobility: favors Hogan over Kess easily. Over Kizer? Maybe, but it's close.
- Pocket presence? Kizer was coming on here... slowly, but surely. I think he has the edge now over the other choices.
- Which brings us to "head". I agree that Hogan's read ability is better than Kizer's at present. I would, however, maintain that Kess' is even greater yet. Yet Kess has a downfield mental block that Hogan does not have. That said...
Kizer has improved his reads as the season has rolled on. He has increasingly looked to the right target with each game. He has learned. He is not yet consistently seeing the field, i.e., the receiver and the defender in the target area. He has at times as back-shoulder throws as early as Week 1 have shown, but not consistently. He also is not yet reliably adjusting throws to the situation. Specifically dialing down his fast ball, especially under pressure. His touch has to come.
Every current weakness in Kizer's game is not going to develop sitting on Game Day and taking limited 2nd string reps. If he is to improve, and there are no guarantees, he has to get the lions share of the work during the week and play on Sunday. And "three years" is a pipe dream. We are on a one-year schedule here. We need to know how aggressively to pursue a QB this coming off-season. Kizer, and only Kizer, has the potential to turn that dial down because...
And then there's arm strength... you cannot "teach" arm strength. That you are the only one seeing his arm as adequate should tell you something. It's not. Hogan's arm is not even Hoyer-strong.
But hey... Carr looked good again last nite..
Most dedicated troll nominee: PoG
Not even close... undeserved...
Ditto for cal... at least in this section of the forum...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Po,
I honestly get your passion... truly.. While I can agree with pieces of your take and add more to Hogan's case, I just can't agree with your bottom line here.
- Mobility: favors Hogan over Kess easily. Over Kizer? Maybe, but it's close.
- Pocket presence? Kizer was coming on here... slowly, but surely. I think he has the edge now over the other choices.
- Which brings us to "head". I agree that Hogan's read ability is better than Kizer's at present. I would, however, maintain that Kess' is even greater yet. Yet Kess has a downfield mental block that Hogan does not have. That said...
Kizer has improved his reads as the season has rolled on. He has increasingly looked to the right target with each game. He has learned. He is not yet consistently seeing the field, i.e., the receiver and the defender in the target area. He has at times as back-shoulder throws as early as Week 1 have shown, but not consistently. He also is not yet reliably adjusting throws to the situation. Specifically dialing down his fast ball, especially under pressure. His touch has to come.
Every current weakness in Kizer's game is not going to develop sitting on Game Day and taking limited 2nd string reps. If he is to improve, and there are no guarantees, he has to get the lions share of the work during the week and play on Sunday. And "three years" is a pipe dream. We are on a one-year schedule here. We need to know how aggressively to pursue a QB this coming off-season. Kizer, and only Kizer, has the potential to turn that dial down because...
And then there's arm strength... you cannot "teach" arm strength. That you are the only one seeing his arm as adequate should tell you something. It's not. Hogan's arm is not even Hoyer-strong.
But hey... Carr looked good again last nite..
Most dedicated troll nominee: PoG
Not even close... undeserved...
Ditto for cal... at least in this section of the forum...
Po,
I honestly get your passion... truly.. While I can agree with pieces of your take and add more to Hogan's case, I just can't agree with your bottom line here.
- Mobility: favors Hogan over Kess easily. Over Kizer? Maybe, but it's close.
- so it's a wash?
- Pocket presence? Kizer was coming on here... slowly, but surely. I think he has the edge now over the other choices.
- Kaiser is coming on after 5 Games? Great and still behind Hogan. So with 5 more games Hogan could come on?
- Which brings us to "head". I agree that Hogan's read ability is better than Kizer's at present. I would, however, maintain that Kess' is even greater yet. Yet Kess has a downfield mental block that Hogan does not have. That said...
- and Factor number 3 goes to Hogan. And again why couldn't that get better with as many NFL starts as Kizer?
Kizer has improved his reads as the season has rolled on. He has increasingly looked to the right target with each game.
and no reason Hogan wouldn't improve his reads. So the argument is Hogan is ahead in everything but Kaiser might get better? A matter fact the only positive Kaiser has his arm strength. Remember da and Brandon Weeden and dr. Dave Mays?
WSS
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Po,
I honestly get your passion... truly.. While I can agree with pieces of your take and add more to Hogan's case, I just can't agree with your bottom line here.
- Mobility: favors Hogan over Kess easily. Over Kizer? Maybe, but it's close.
- so it's a wash?
- Pocket presence? Kizer was coming on here... slowly, but surely. I think he has the edge now over the other choices.
- Kaiser is coming on after 5 Games? Great and still behind Hogan. So with 5 more games Hogan could come on?
- Which brings us to "head". I agree that Hogan's read ability is better than Kizer's at present. I would, however, maintain that Kess' is even greater yet. Yet Kess has a downfield mental block that Hogan does not have. That said...
- and Factor number 3 goes to Hogan. And again why couldn't that get better with as many NFL starts as Kizer?
Kizer has improved his reads as the season has rolled on. He has increasingly looked to the right target with each game.
and no reason Hogan wouldn't improve his reads. So the argument is Hogan is ahead in everything but Kaiser might get better? A matter fact the only positive Kaiser has his arm strength. Remember da and Brandon Weeden and dr. Dave Mays?
WSS
OH BOY! College footage! And from 2015 no less....
I honestly get your passion... truly.. While I can agree with pieces of your take and add more to Hogan's case, I just can't agree with your bottom line here.
- Mobility: favors Hogan over Kess easily. Over Kizer? Maybe, but it's close.
- so it's a wash?
- Pocket presence? Kizer was coming on here... slowly, but surely. I think he has the edge now over the other choices.
- Kaiser is coming on after 5 Games? Great and still behind Hogan. So with 5 more games Hogan could come on?
- Which brings us to "head". I agree that Hogan's read ability is better than Kizer's at present. I would, however, maintain that Kess' is even greater yet. Yet Kess has a downfield mental block that Hogan does not have. That said...
- and Factor number 3 goes to Hogan. And again why couldn't that get better with as many NFL starts as Kizer?
Kizer has improved his reads as the season has rolled on. He has increasingly looked to the right target with each game.
and no reason Hogan wouldn't improve his reads. So the argument is Hogan is ahead in everything but Kaiser might get better? A matter fact the only positive Kaiser has his arm strength. Remember da and Brandon Weeden and dr. Dave Mays?
Allow me to summarize my rankings... electoral college style...
- Mobility: Hogan-Kizer T-1, Kess 3
- Pocket Presense: Kizer 1, Hogan 2, Kess 3
- Reading: Kess 1, Hogan 2, Kizer 3
Totals: Kizer 5, Hogan 5, Kess 7 ... low man wins.... tiebreaker to arm-strength/upside. It doesn't matter how well you can read, if you can't/won't make the throws...
Final Verdict: Kizer
Now if you want the raw vote totals... well that'll cost you...
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The amount of time debated on this board (and I'm guilty of doing it too) regarding a guy named Kevin Hogan - who most likely won't start a season's worth of games in his entire career - is pretty impressive.
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The amount of time debated on this board (and I'm guilty of doing it too) regarding a guy named Kevin Hogan - who most likely won't start a season's worth of games in his entire career - is pretty impressive.
The amount of time debated on this board (and I'm guilty of doing it too) regarding a guy named Kevin Hogan - who most likely won't start a season's worth of games in his entire career - is pretty impressive.
Well when you have even one Champion... one persistent-beyond-all-that-is-reasonable Champion... that's how it goes.
Also doesn't hurt that I like Po... He's been good to post with for years.
WSS? Meh... but he does wear a kilt... to work no less...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
The amount of time debated on this board (and I'm guilty of doing it too) regarding a guy named Kevin Hogan - who most likely won't start a season's worth of games in his entire career - is pretty impressive.
The amount of time debated on this board (and I'm guilty of doing it too) regarding a guy named Kevin Hogan - who most likely won't start a season's worth of games in his entire career - is pretty impressive.
??
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The amount of time debated on this board (and I'm guilty of doing it too) regarding a guy named Kevin Hogan - who most likely won't start a season's worth of games in his entire career - is pretty impressive.
Well when you have even one Champion... one persistent-beyond-all-that-is-reasonable Champion... that's how it goes.
Also doesn't hurt that I like Po... He's been good to post with for years.
WSS? Meh... but he does wear a kilt... to work no less...
Well when you have even one Champion... one persistent-beyond-all-that-is-reasonable Champion... that's how it goes.
Also doesn't hurt that I like Po... He's been good to post with for years.
WSS? Meh... but he does wear a kilt... to work no less...
PoG seems like a good guy for sure... even if I do feel like he's sometimes trolling us regarding Hogan
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Well when you have even one Champion... one persistent-beyond-all-that-is-reasonable Champion... that's how it goes.
Also doesn't hurt that I like Po... He's been good to post with for years.
WSS? Meh... but he does wear a kilt... to work no less...
PoG seems like a good guy for sure... even if I do feel like he's sometimes trolling us regarding Hogan
PoG seems like a good guy for sure... even if I do feel like he's sometimes trolling us regarding Hogan
He's trolling is concerning the Browns!
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Well when you have even one Champion... one persistent-beyond-all-that-is-reasonable Champion... that's how it goes.
Also doesn't hurt that I like Po... He's been good to post with for years.
WSS? Meh... but he does wear a kilt... to work no less...
PoG seems like a good guy for sure... even if I do feel like he's sometimes trolling us regarding Hogan
PoG seems like a good guy for sure... even if I do feel like he's sometimes trolling us regarding Hogan
Well, he was locked into Trent Richardson the same way.
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