Not so fast on the NFL qb draft train for next year
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stats only tell so much. Indiana scared the heck out of Ohio State for a half - they are a very good football team. When a good defensegame plans to stop the run, any rb is going to have less yards. If you added Barkely and Ridley (wr) to the Browns' offense, it would rock.
BTW, Someday, the Browns have to find another Joe Thomas.
Zeke Elliot ran for 200 yards against Alabama. If it’s a one-off bad game, then ok. But 3 in 7 games? No bueno.
Zeke Elliot ran for 200 yards against Alabama. If it’s a one-off bad game, then ok. But 3 in 7 games? No bueno.
How many bad games did Fournette have last year?
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Attaboy... hang in there, cal. It can happen...
I really like Clayton Thorson, qb, Northwestern. But Ryan Finley is even better. I'm not impressed with Darnold and Rosen, etc.
What I would look for in a qb, is like Wentz... Let other goofs spar over Rosen and Darnold... and the other high rated qb's.
I would pick Thorson (second round?) or Finley (mid/late first round), in the first round. Finley could very well be rated Wentz high, if he really keeps on impressing in school the rest of the year.
Finding QB nuggets is fun isn't it?
Second Request: What are you seeing in Thorson?
I like Finley as well. This year as opposed to last he is showing up in big games against better opponents. Still not in in my 2018 sleeper mix... yet... but I'm looking.
Why is Barkely hyped? He runs a 4.33, That's over 225 lbs. He as 5* agility, explosiveness...is being compared to Zeke Elliot - maybe even better. Sure, the link is a few highlights playing Akron. But he has made USC look silly, too. He is that special.
Looking forward to seeing him tonite. It'll be my first time this season.
What I do not get, however, in the absence of seeing him is how he is the consensus Heisman frontrunner despite not being in the TOP 20 of any collegiate rushing stat.
Click on "Expand All Leaderboards" at top of table... https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/years/2017-leaders.html
Inception.
... or Catch-22...
Great book... and worst movie adaptation I've ever seen.
Second Request: What are you seeing in Thorson?
Tuned into Iowa-NWern game about midway thru Q1... was just background viewing, but rewound and just watched every offensive play.
Thorson +'s: nice throwing mechanics, nice size, decent arm and does go thru progressions.
Thorson -'s: overall impression... very mechanical... no field vision, no internal clock, lacks foot speed... even evident in his 3-step drops out of the gun, poor acceleration = no escapability, poor decision-making on read-option run, no evidence of improv skill.
I will say that he is badly cast in a read-option Offense, but such is life for a College QB these days.
Of course this is only one-half-ish of one game focus, but is confirming general impression of briefer glances his way a couple times earlier this year.
Did spend a little time iso-ing the NWern LB the announcers were gushing about... Frasier. Meh... ran into contact of releasing OL significant majority of time. And did not live up to sideline-to-sideline, "one of the top LBs in the country" billing bestowed upon him. I was more impressed by the LB wearing #10 next to him.
Not a lot of talent on this field this day...
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Sorry Tour, somehow I lost that post about Thorson. I'll start over.
He's listed in the top five underclassmen by Kiper. Trevor Siemian was his predecessor at Northwestern, and he is starting
for the Broncos ahead of Lynch and Osweiller. Thorson has a stronger arm, and his accuracy is outstanding... will have a stronger
legacy left behind that Siemian...is very, very smart... He is also mobile and can really take off. He has the size, the moxie,
the character, he plays like he loves the game. I haven't seen Josh Allen, but I can imagine him being picked over Rosen and Darnold
no question in my mind about it. I like Thorson for his excellent improvement over last year, and his accuracy is outstanding, where Allen's is not on the same level... Thorson's mental development really
took off, ... from a year ago.
Me, if I were drafting, I'd have Thorson, Finley and Allen as the three qb's who would fit what I was looking for. I don't care about
all the stats all that much - stats reflect a lot of factors - like scheme, and the talent or lack of talent around him, what
competition he faces .... If Finley is still at 186 lbs, that is going to be a bit tough on him I think. If I were picking a qb with
the #1 overall pick, it would be Allen. Or, I would be happy with Barkely and picking Thorson a bit later. But it's way early,
like we saw with Wentz climbing everybody's charts his senior year. Thorson may stay in school. But if he comes out to the draft..
if I could get him in the second round, I'd laugh all the way to the bank.
"He’s grown tremendously since his freshman season, and if Thorson can continue to develop, it may well be be the second consecutive year a WildDawg opts for the NFL early. Thorson has the size, athleticism, and intangibles to be an early selection in 2018. With an improvement on last year’s promising season, the Wheaton native could be among the first 32 selections. Even if Thorson has a similar year to 2016, he could hear his name called on the first two days of the NFL Draft.
Back in November, ESPN’s Mel Kiper had Thorson on his list of Top 10 quarterback prospects for the 2017 draft, which went relatively unnoticed. Thorson will very likely be on Kiper’s list for 2018. It will be a good year for quarterbacks, possibly headlined by Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen from the Pac-12, Heisman winner Lamar Jackson, and Wyoming’s Josh Allen. With a strong junior year, Thorson may find himself on that list as well."
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I really like Clayton Thorson, qb, Northwestern. But Ryan Finley is even better. I'm not impressed with Darnold and Rosen, etc.
What I would look for in a qb, is like Wentz... Let other goofs spar over Rosen and Darnold... and the other high rated qb's.
I would pick Thorson (second round?) or Finley (mid/late first round), in the first round. Finley could very well be rated Wentz high, if he really keeps on impressing in school the rest of the year.
I really like Clayton Thorson, qb, Northwestern. But Ryan Finley is even better. I'm not impressed with Darnold and Rosen, etc.
What I would look for in a qb, is like Wentz... Let other goofs spar over Rosen and Darnold... and the other high rated qb's.
I would pick Thorson (second round?) or Finley (mid/late first round), in the first round. Finley could very well be rated Wentz high, if he really keeps on impressing in school the rest of the year.
Wentz was a high rated QB...
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Zeke Elliot ran for 200 yards against Alabama. If it’s a one-off bad game, then ok. But 3 in 7 games? No bueno.
Not playing for penn st he didn't. in 2017, Ohio State had the #8 offensive line in college football.
The Penn state offensive line was 27th on the list. Their stats aren't going to be the same - not any kind of comparison
to their respective skill levels as rb's that I would go with.
https://athlonsports.com/college-football/college-footballs-top-50-offensive-lines-2017
Not playing for penn st he didn't. in 2017, Ohio State had the #8 offensive line in college football.
The Penn state offensive line was 27th on the list. Their stats aren't going to be the same - not any kind of comparison
to their respective skill levels as rb's that I would go with.
https://athlonsports.com/college-football/college-footballs-top-50-offensive-lines-2017
27’s still plenty solid.
If you don't understand the hype about Barkley you've haven't watched the dude play. I'd make a logical argument he's a better prospect than Ezekial Elliott and Lenoard Fournette. I'm not saying the dude is right for the Browns, but he's a beast.
Then it should show up in the stats.
How many bad games did Fournette have last year?
Everyone came off the Fournette hype throughout the year last year though. And I don’t recall anyone saying he should go 1 overall.
Also, despite having a terrible year he still had a slightly higher ypc than does Barkley so far. And he had 1,900 yards as a sophomore. And the only really bad games he had as a junior were Florida and Alabama and he was hurt much of the year. I’d love to see Barkley play the SEC’s division champions....
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I really like Clayton Thorson, qb, Northwestern. But Ryan Finley is even better. I'm not impressed with Darnold and Rosen, etc.
What I would look for in a qb, is like Wentz... Let other goofs spar over Rosen and Darnold... and the other high rated qb's.
I would pick Thorson (second round?) or Finley (mid/late first round), in the first round. Finley could very well be rated Wentz high, if he really keeps on impressing in school the rest of the year.
Wentz was a high rated QB...
Wentz was a high rated QB...
yes, he was. You misunderstood what I was saying.
BTW, He was generally figured to go in the mid first round, but went up the charts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carson_Wentz
"In February 2016, most analysts had Wentz projected to be selected in the mid-first round of the draft.[18][19][20] However, Wentz began to be regarded as a Top 10 prospect after his pro day. "
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Sorry Tour, somehow I lost that post about Thorson. I'll start over.
He's listed in the top five underclassmen by Kiper. Trevor Siemian was his predecessor at Northwestern, and he is starting
for the Broncos ahead of Lynch and Osweiller. Thorson has a stronger arm, and his accuracy is outstanding... will have a stronger
legacy left behind that Siemian...is very, very smart... He is also mobile and can really take off. He has the size, the moxie,
the character, he plays like he loves the game. I haven't seen Josh Allen, but I can imagine him being picked over Rosen and Darnold
no question in my mind about it. I like Thorson for his excellent improvement over last year, and his accuracy is outstanding, where Allen's is not on the same level... Thorson's mental development really
took off, ... from a year ago.
Me, if I were drafting, I'd have Thorson, Finley and Allen as the three qb's who would fit what I was looking for. I don't care about
all the stats all that much - stats reflect a lot of factors - like scheme, and the talent or lack of talent around him, what
competition he faces .... If Finley is still at 186 lbs, that is going to be a bit tough on him I think. If I were picking a qb with
the #1 overall pick, it would be Allen. Or, I would be happy with Barkely and picking Thorson a bit later. But it's way early,
like we saw with Wentz climbing everybody's charts his senior year. Thorson may stay in school. But if he comes out to the draft..
if I could get him in the second round, I'd laugh all the way to the bank.
"He’s grown tremendously since his freshman season, and if Thorson can continue to develop, it may well be be the second consecutive year a WildDawg opts for the NFL early. Thorson has the size, athleticism, and intangibles to be an early selection in 2018. With an improvement on last year’s promising season, the Wheaton native could be among the first 32 selections. Even if Thorson has a similar year to 2016, he could hear his name called on the first two days of the NFL Draft.
Back in November, ESPN’s Mel Kiper had Thorson on his list of Top 10 quarterback prospects for the 2017 draft, which went relatively unnoticed. Thorson will very likely be on Kiper’s list for 2018. It will be a good year for quarterbacks, possibly headlined by Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen from the Pac-12, Heisman winner Lamar Jackson, and Wyoming’s Josh Allen. With a strong junior year, Thorson may find himself on that list as well."
Sorry Tour, somehow I lost that post about Thorson. I'll start over.
Thanks, cal...
IIRC you put like a Round 5 grade on Thorson. I can agree with a Day 3-ish grade, but need to see better movement to go as high as R5... something Siemian has... something as I wrote above I've not seen in Thorson... yet.
Haven't seen Allen or Finley as yet, but the latter is popping up in a lot of top 20 stat categories... as is my super secret sleeper...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Sorry Tour, somehow I lost that post about Thorson. I'll start over.
Thanks, cal...
IIRC you put like a Round 5 grade on Thorson. I can agree with a Day 3-ish grade, but need to see better movement to go as high as R5... something Siemian has... something as I wrote above I've not seen in Thorson... yet.
Haven't seen Allen or Finley as yet, but the latter is popping up in a lot of top 20 stat categories... as is my super secret sleeper...
Haven't seen Finley as yet, but the latter is popping up in a lot of top 20 stat categories... as is my super secret sleeper...
Enjoy watching the 25th ranked OL in the country at NC State.nicknamed "The Band of Brothers".I'd rank them much higher..Got a good look last week at Pitt what would happen to Finley if a team took his running game away? Finley passed that test too..So many here in NC compare Finley to Glennon? Am seeing much better in Finley than Glennon..
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Not playing for penn st he didn't. in 2017, Ohio State had the #8 offensive line in college football.
The Penn state offensive line was 27th on the list. Their stats aren't going to be the same - not any kind of comparison
to their respective skill levels as rb's that I would go with.
https://athlonsports.com/college-football/college-footballs-top-50-offensive-lines-2017
27’s still plenty solid.
If you don't understand the hype about Barkley you've haven't watched the dude play. I'd make a logical argument he's a better prospect than Ezekial Elliott and Lenoard Fournette. I'm not saying the dude is right for the Browns, but he's a beast.
Then it should show up in the stats.
How many bad games did Fournette have last year?
Everyone came off the Fournette hype throughout the year last year though. And I don’t recall anyone saying he should go 1 overall.
Also, despite having a terrible year he still had a slightly higher ypc than does Barkley so far. And he had 1,900 yards as a sophomore. And the only really bad games he had as a junior were Florida and Alabama and he was hurt much of the year. I’d love to see Barkley play the SEC’s division champions....
27’s still plenty solid.
Then it should show up in the stats.
Everyone came off the Fournette hype throughout the year last year though. And I don’t recall anyone saying he should go 1 overall.
Also, despite having a terrible year he still had a slightly higher ypc than does Barkley so far. And he had 1,900 yards as a sophomore. And the only really bad games he had as a junior were Florida and Alabama and he was hurt much of the year. I’d love to see Barkley play the SEC’s division champions....
If only he was already having a dominant game against a great college defense!
.........
Edit: Lol
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Yet again, sans his long of 69, he threw up under 3 ypc.
So so are we just gonna count on him busting 50+ yard runs routinely in the NFL to have a respectable average?
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Only saw the start of the game as I had a "do" to attend last evening (did record the game, but fell asleep "watching" it later)... anyway...
Saw a lot of great scheming by PSU for Barkley including that long TD run to open his night... thought he was going to stumble and fall twice during it... but "generational RB" did not leap off the screen at any point of what I saw.
Still have the recording tho, so can dive in again... better rested. IF there's any play or plays on which I need to focus... let me know.
Did see a couple other PSUers that impressed me... on D... Love #40's Singletary-like eyes at LB and then there was a pretty stout DE whose number escapes me ATM...
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Only saw the start of the game as I had a "do" to attend last evening (did record the game, but fell asleep "watching" it later)... anyway...
Saw a lot of great scheming by PSU for Barkley including that long TD run to open his night... thought he was going to stumble and fall twice during it... but "generational RB" did not leap off the screen at any point of what I saw.
Still have the recording tho, so can dive in again... better rested. IF there's any play or plays on which I need to focus... let me know.
Did see a couple other PSUers that impressed me... on D... Love #40's Singletary-like eyes at LB and then there was a pretty stout DE whose number escapes me ATM...
Only saw the start of the game as I had a "do" to attend last evening (did record the game, but fell asleep "watching" it later)... anyway...
Saw a lot of great scheming by PSU for Barkley including that long TD run to open his night... thought he was going to stumble and fall twice during it... but "generational RB" did not leap off the screen at any point of what I saw.
Still have the recording tho, so can dive in again... better rested. IF there's any play or plays on which I need to focus... let me know.
Did see a couple other PSUers that impressed me... on D... Love #40's Singletary-like eyes at LB and then there was a pretty stout DE whose number escapes me ATM...
Just gonna bump this for you.
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Only saw the start of the game as I had a "do" to attend last evening (did record the game, but fell asleep "watching" it later)... anyway...
Saw a lot of great scheming by PSU for Barkley including that long TD run to open his night... thought he was going to stumble and fall twice during it... but "generational RB" did not leap off the screen at any point of what I saw.
Still have the recording tho, so can dive in again... better rested. IF there's any play or plays on which I need to focus... let me know.
Did see a couple other PSUers that impressed me... on D... Love #40's Singletary-like eyes at LB and then there was a pretty stout DE whose number escapes me ATM...
Just gonna bump this for you.
Just gonna bump this for you.
When the Shmuck did I ever say he was a generational talent? What I said and will continue to say is he's a top RB prospect on the same scale of Elliot or fournette. To say "well take away big plays and he's average" sounds so stupid. That's what you draft a guy like that for. He was the best player on the field and it shows.
The funny part is I don't even want the dude that's badly.
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Yet again, sans his long of 69, he threw up under 3 ypc.
So so are we just gonna count on him busting 50+ yard runs routinely in the NFL to have a respectable average?
Yet again, sans his long of 69, he threw up under 3 ypc.
So so are we just gonna count on him busting 50+ yard runs routinely in the NFL to have a respectable average?
not a positive or negative comment on barkley(I have no opinion), but this is a ridiculous way of looking at things.....also, NO nfl running back can consistently grind out 4 yards a carry in the absence of big runs. It's just not possible. So if you are going to draft a running back in the first round you may as well take one who can bust huge runs because there isn't anyone who can consistently average 4+ yards per carry outside of those big runs.
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Saquons one of the best rb's ive seen in college in awile. Not sure he blocka as good as zeke but as far as running goes, saquons better than zeke
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So how is our UCLA boy doing since he lasered A&M apart in a 34 point deficit 20 min clock comeback?
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At this point of the college season, the only guy I'd be interested taking in the first round at QB would POSSIBLY be Lamar Jackson. I think he needs at least one more year of college ball, but I doubt he stays. Lamar throws a gorgeous, looping "drop it in the bucket" deep ball, and appears to be pretty accurate on other passes as well. He's not perfect, and definitely needs a ton of refinement, but Lamar's physical skills make him so tempting that a team will certainly draft him high in 2018.
I don't know if he can stay healthy with his style, and I don't know if he can truly "read a defense", but the guy is terrifying for opposing defenses. ESPECIALLY in the red zone.
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Just gonna bump this for you.
When the Shmuck did I ever say he was a generational talent? What I said and will continue to say is he's a top RB prospect on the same scale of Elliot or fournette. To say "well take away big plays and he's average" sounds so stupid. That's what you draft a guy like that for. He was the best player on the field and it shows.
The funny part is I don't even want the dude that's badly.
Jackson is getting harder to ignore... something I prefer to do with heavily run-oriented, Collegiate QBs. Something the NFL trend is making harder to do.
Thought he was too small (or slight) in previous seasons, but he's now 6'3 213, so the kid is built to run and runs pretty smart. That said he has coughed up 19 fumbles losing 11 of them. Not all may be on the run, however. Some are likely pocket strips.
Passing... looks much more comfortable in the pocket this season and, as you said, is making some gorgeous throws.
When the Shmuck did I ever say he was a generational talent? What I said and will continue to say is he's a top RB prospect on the same scale of Elliot or fournette. To say "well take away big plays and he's average" sounds so stupid. That's what you draft a guy like that for. He was the best player on the field and it shows.
When did I say you said?
It's a characterization I've heard by a talking head or four.
As for excluding plays... Some "big plays" are more attributable to an individual effort than others. Some are just the right call vs. the right D and well executed by the "team". Barkley's opening TD simply falls into the latter category... IMO. So IMO it's fair to discount it... not completely, but heavily... since all he really did in that instance was "run fast in a straight line and not fall down."
Have to add that the "not fall down" part looked to be strangely iffy in at least two strides of that "fast run".
So how is our UCLA boy doing since he lasered A&M apart in a 34 point deficit 20 min clock comeback?
Carrying a heavy load... but knees only buckled once so far. UCLA's run-D is virtually non-existent.
Passing Rushing Rk Date School Opponent Cmp Att Pct Yds TD Int Rate Att Yds Avg TD 7 Games 200 315 63.5 2620 19 8 148.2 30 -23 -0.8 1 1 2017-09-03 UCLA Texas A&M W 35 59 59.3 491 4 0 151.6 5 -14 -2.8 0 2 2017-09-09 UCLA Hawaii W 22 25 88.0 329 5 0 264.5 2 -17 -8.5 0 3 2017-09-16 UCLA @ Memphis L 34 56 60.7 463 4 2 146.6 7 32 4.6 1 4 2017-09-23 UCLA @ Stanford L 40 60 66.7 480 3 2 143.7 3 15 5.0 0 5 2017-09-30 UCLA Colorado W 28 45 62.2 372 1 1 134.6 5 7 1.4 0 6 2017-10-14 UCLA @ Arizona L 20 34 58.8 219 0 3 95.3 6 -35 -5.8 0 7 2017-10-21 UCLA Oregon W 21 36 58.3 266 2 0 138.7 2 -11 -5.5 0 Passing Rushing Total Offense First Downs Penalties Turnovers Split G Cmp Att Pct Yds TD Att Yds Avg TD Plays Yds Avg Pass Rush Pen Tot No. Yds Fum Int Tot Offense 7 28.9 45.6 63.3 380.6 2.7 30.1 129.6 4.3 2.1 75.7 510.1 6.7 16.9 7.9 2.0 26.7 9.0 86.0 1.0 1.1 2.1 Defense 7 15.1 28.3 53.5 190.6 1.7 49.7 303.4 6.1 2.6 78.0 494.0 6.3 8.4 11.7 4.4 24.6 8.0 70.7 0.4 0.6 1.0 Difference +13.8 +17.3 +9.8 +190.0 +1.0 -19.6 -173.8 -1.8 -0.5 -2.3 +16.1 +0.4 +8.5 -3.8 -2.4 +2.1 +1.0 +15.3 +0.6 +0.5 +1.1 @gumby73 said:
Such posting of College players may fit into the College Football Forum?
True, but traffic is much lighter in that section... so for big topics such as QBs, this section seems appropriate.
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I had an inkling of it before, and now I still think that it is highly possible/probable that Rosen may be the best QB coming out next year....despite some naysaying about him personally.
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Just gonna bump this for you.
When the Shmuck did I ever say he was a generational talent? What I said and will continue to say is he's a top RB prospect on the same scale of Elliot or fournette. To say "well take away big plays and he's average" sounds so stupid. That's what you draft a guy like that for. He was the best player on the field and it shows.
The funny part is I don't even want the dude that's badly.
When the Shmuck did I ever say he was a generational talent? What I said and will continue to say is he's a top RB prospect on the same scale of Elliot or fournette. To say "well take away big plays and he's average" sounds so stupid. That's what you draft a guy like that for. He was the best player on the field and it shows.
The funny part is I don't even want the dude that's badly.
So again, we’re going to count on him busting stuff for 50+ yards regularly in the NFL? Not gonna happen.
not a positive or negative comment on barkley(I have no opinion), but this is a ridiculous way of looking at things.....also, NO nfl running back can consistently grind out 4 yards a carry in the absence of big runs. It's just not possible. So if you are going to draft a running back in the first round you may as well take one who can bust huge runs because there isn't anyone who can consistently average 4+ yards per carry outside of those big runs.
I’m aware you have to count on some bigger runs, but in the NFL, most of those are 15-20 yards, not 75. And you have a lot more negative runs.
Barkley is an elite pass catching back. But he is, at least statistically, absolutely nothing to write home about as a runner.
Saquons one of the best rb's ive seen in college in awile. Not sure he blocka as good as zeke but as far as running goes, saquons better than zeke
No he’s not. No chance. Certainly a better pass catcher though.
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