"Read a lot into it. Quinn on track to be the starter"

@shepwrite said:
Wait... you're disputing that NFL passing offenses have become imminently more efficient, with completion percentages and TD/INT ratios much higher now than ever before? And that three of the four top ratio guys are in their primes right now? That with almost every offense connected to the WCO in some way, and every defense connected to Tampa 2 in some way, the day of the mad bombers is long gone?
And I'm the one with a poorly thought out argument? Pot, this is kettle. You're black.

Wow. Delusion, thy name is drunkandstoopid.

I Lol'd at this....

Drunkandstoopid

@shepwrite said:
Wait... you're disputing that NFL passing offenses have become imminently more efficient, with completion percentages and TD/INT ratios much higher now than ever before? And that three of the four top ratio guys are in their primes right now? That with almost every offense connected to the WCO in some way, and every defense connected to Tampa 2 in some way, the day of the mad bombers is long gone?
And I'm the one with a poorly thought out argument? Pot, this is kettle. You're black.

Wow. Delusion, thy name is drunkandstoopid.

You are the one acting like all QBs are finished products in their first two seasons of starts. That's not the case with the 4 guys you first named, and they were your examples of "the best".

Then you followed it up with guys, who with the exception of Rodgers, have seasons with lower TD/Int ratios than DA did in his one full season predominate their statistical resumes so far, and thus far haven't reached the level of play you claim you expect to see out of DA. If they are finished products right now, then Rodgers has a huge edge on DA as a QB, but the other guys don't.

Now you suddenly are changing the argument to West Coast offense vs. the deep offense.... make up your mind. You give out examples of guys who supposedly have a 2/1 TD/Int ratio year after year, then when it's shown that those guys didn't initially have that, and the other guys you've named have yet to achieve that consistently if at all, you resort to changing the argument.

I'm thinking all of these guys have the potential to achieve a 2/1 ratio on a consistent basis, even DA. Heck, Quinn's got a good shot at it if he lives up to the hype and the line play is better than it has been the last couple of years.

I used to think you were a thoughtful reasonable poster, but after watching you change your position and make new claims every time the wind blows (remember, it wasn't me, nor Lums, who gave you the nickname "flag" last year), I'm not so sure.

Later,

Steve

Lumbergh

@shepwrite said:
That's today's NFL passing game... and Anderson doesn't fit it.

Ironically Anderson has better stats in every single category that shep pimps in this twisted Quinn crusade.

Riffer X

This is actually a damn good thread on both sides.

Queen Queer or Derek Bear Diva it's all good.

@shepwrite said:
That's not really the point, D&S. It's that today's NFL passing games are far more efficient than in the past, and three of the four best in history are playing right now. Back in the day, you could get away with 1.22/1, but that's not good enough anymore.

The last two Super Bowl champs were led by QB's with sub-1.22/1 regular season TD/INT ratios. Good defense and a strong running game can get you pretty far, apparently.

Lumbergh

@shepwrite said:
Quinn has exactly one healthy start on his resume... and he posted a 104.0 passer rating.

shep he's not getting a free pass for having a boo boo on his finger. especially when the doctor cleared him and he said it didn't hurt.

posting it 1,000 times isn't gonna change that.

Lumbergh

Aloysius said:
The last two Super Bowl champs were led by QB's with sub-1.22/1 regular season TD/INT ratios. Good defense and a strong running game can get you pretty far, apparently.

yeah but in "shep world" he retroactively jumped on the Eli Manning bandwagon right at the moment the Giants got hot. So according to him he was all over that.

Drunkandstoopid

Aloysius said:
The last two Super Bowl champs were led by QB's with sub-1.22/1 regular season TD/INT ratios. Good defense and a strong running game can get you pretty far, apparently.

Who needs Superbowl wins when you can have stats on your side?

Drunkandstoopid

@shepwrite said:
Eli Manning led a fairly mediocre playoff team... and then got insanely hot. You should look at those two indicators (completion percentage and TD/INT) starting with the last game of that season through Super Bowl. Pretty amazing stretch. Not coincidentally, that's when the Giants became a good football team. Alo should've stuck to the Steelers, the one great anomaly.
About that: Roethlisberger and the Steelers are odd ducks because they're so consistently dominant as a defensive team and in most years (not last) they're among the league leaders in rushing. Ben had an off year but he's a great quarterback who manages to make plays out of chaos as much as anybody. He's a 90-ish career passer who completes about 63 percent of his passes.

It's much easier to connect passing efficiency and winning, which Clayton has done, if you're looking for trends.

I'm trying to figure out how you can knock DA for his completion percentage and TD/INT ratio, then defend your hyping Manning who was playing at or below DA's level for the majority of 4 full seasons before having a breakout. You've said DA's numbers do not a QB make, but Manning's numbers prior to '08 were equivalent or shy of DA's.

OconRecon

Here's the list of QB's ABOVE DA in 2008:

25 Kyle Orton CHI
26 JaMarcus Russell OAK
27 Tyler Thigpen KC
28 Gus Frerotte MIN
29 Dan Orlovsky DET
30 Marc Bulger STL
31 Ryan Fitzpatrick CIN
32 Derek Anderson CLE

Not many of these guys are going to start in '09. Well, the first round draft choice probably will, but like Eli, first round draft choices get a longer leash.

So, out with the last ranked DA and in with the first round draft choice. I think that's that.

Farang

I'm starting to like Lummy's posts better now:

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Greythan

Ocon's post is a good one.

While the debate will rage regarding the cause of DA's poor 2008 and resulting view on his ceiling, the fact still remains that he's entering his fifth year (?) in the league and doubts regarding his systemic weaknesses remain (accuracy, decision making). How much longer do you invest in "developing" a guy no one thought to draft (sixth round still counts as being "drafted" I guess), was cut by a team without a QB, and continues to show the same negative tendancies? All this when you have a QB drafted in the first round sitting on the bench whom you were unwilling to trade when you had offers on the table?

Answer: No more investing in DA's development while Quinn remains an unknown. Hence, Quinn will get his shot.

Logical thought process to me and all we've ever wanted. Again, should Quinn flame out we'll then have to choose between re-investing in DA's development or finding a new QB.

Lumbergh

@greythan said:
Answer: No more investing in DA's development while Quinn remains an unknown. Hence, Quinn will get his shot.

Quinn isn't unknown. And he had "his shot".

You just don't want to believe he was the spitting image of Charlie Frye.

Lumbergh

@shepwrite said:
BTW, Mangini says Quinn is still taking "first reps."

*Anderson took first reps on Tuesday

what should we be reading into that?

Lumbergh

@shepwrite said:
Okay, now you don't even try to make sense. There's no effort here at all.

you're right. Shoulda narrowed it down. The dink n dunk style is the spitting image. But with all the "accurate Quinn" talk I must have forgotton his completion percentage isn't even in the same ballpark as Frye.

Greythan

Quinn isn't unknown. And he had "his shot".
You just don't want to believe he was the spitting image of Charlie Frye.

I'll bite, Fraud.

What's this?

CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA LNG TD INT SACK RAT
21   37 276 56.8 7.46 45  1  1  0.0  78.2
23   32 223 71.9 6.97 36  2  2  5.0  85.8
10   27 123 37.0 4.56 25  0  4  2.0  12.3

Its the results of DA' first three "starts". 3 TD's and 7 INT's. I guess his experiment was over then too. I especially liked the 0/4 effort against the then, 3 win Tampa team at home.

3 games isn't a "shot" or your boy wouldn't have made the team the following year based on your "logic".

lemosley01

@lumbergh said:
*Anderson took first reps on Tuesday
what should we be reading into that?

That Quinn's arm got tired from throwing all of the balls the previous three days?

Damn Greythan. I didn't realize that DA owned several of the worst performances we've seen in recent memory. What a shitfest.

Greythan

I took a quick count of DA's throws in his first start and came up with only one throw ESPN categorizes as "long". I found one they called "deep" that was a 16 yard completion. Every other pass (including his long TD to BE) was a short pass dependent on YAC.

Yup, DA was a dink and dunker too. Only, he coughed up 7 interceptions in his first 3 starts. Ouch.

Don't you get tired?

The New England offense actually has gotten more vertical in recent years and has incorporated a ton of spread looks. If you've got a good TE or slot guy who can wreak havoc over the middle, defenses can't simply take away the deep ball by playing Cover 2.

It's funny: just a year ago, a bunch of people here were talking about how you have to go vertical, which is why Savage was so smart to bring in Stallworth. Now, we're saying that defenses can easily take away the vertical game, so it's not all that valuable. I'm guessing the truth is somewhere in between.

Lumbergh

@greythan said:
3 games isn't a "shot" or your boy wouldn't have made the team the following year based on your "logic".

"logic", unlike BQ Nation, doesn't omit the fact that DA beat Kansas City in overtime.