The Process Poll
-
Years, decades of 3-6 wins forced them to strip it down.
Years, decades of 3-6 wins forced them to strip it down.
"Forced them". I think there is a saying about babies and bathwater that could apply here.
-
Years, decades of 3-6 wins forced them to strip it down.
Years, decades of 3-6 wins forced them to strip it down.
3-6 wins is a fantasy at this point, we’re now circling the drain.
-
Also, if we are discussing "the truth", this FO and coach are awful. Sashi has the right strategy but it puts you in the position of having to hit on more of those accrued picks. You can't strip down the roster then expect to have a margin of error come draft time. Sashi has shat the bed, most notably at QB and WR evaluations.
Also, if we are discussing "the truth", this FO and coach are awful. Sashi has the right strategy but it puts you in the position of having to hit on more of those accrued picks. You can't strip down the roster then expect to have a margin of error come draft time. Sashi has shat the bed, most notably at QB and WR evaluations.
15 yards for Faulty Math... For any fixed percentage of hits in the draft, more picks = more hits...
15 more for continuing the myth of Sashi evaluating talent... The best leaders of consensus processes bring no opinions at all into their facilitation of the process, and on occasions that they may have an opinion, they ask permission of the group to even share it.
Every other uttereance they make, every testing question they ask, has to in the end net out as straight down the middle neutral. Any thumb on the scale detected again needs to be called out by the group.
This is why Sashi, a "non-football guy" is better than any former player/coach/GM football guy for this process. Install football "knowledge" at the top of this approach, and it will never be what it can be.
A few more and you'll be first and 99...
Aside to D Bone: The above is part of the fuller explanation/answer I owe you.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Also, if we are discussing "the truth", this FO and coach are awful. Sashi has the right strategy but it puts you in the position of having to hit on more of those accrued picks. You can't strip down the roster then expect to have a margin of error come draft time. Sashi has shat the bed, most notably at QB and WR evaluations.
15 yards for Faulty Math... For any fixed percentage of hits in the draft, more picks = more hits...
15 more for continuing the myth of Sashi evaluating talent... The best leaders of consensus processes bring no opinions at all into their facilitation of the process, and on occasions that they may have an opinion, they ask permission of the group to even share it.
Every other uttereance they make, every testing question they ask, has to in the end net out as straight down the middle neutral. Any thumb on the scale detected again needs to be called out by the group.
This is why Sashi, a "non-football guy" is better than any former player/coach/GM football guy for this process. Install football "knowledge" at the top of this approach, and it will never be what it can be.
A few more and you'll be first and 99...
Aside to D Bone: The above is part of the fuller explanation/answer I owe you.
15 yards for Faulty Math... For any fixed percentage of hits in the draft, more picks = more hits...
15 more for continuing the myth of Sashi evaluating talent... The best leaders of consensus processes bring no opinions at all into their facilitation of the process, and on occasions that they may have an opinion, they ask permission of the group to even share it.
Every other uttereance they make, every testing question they ask, has to in the end net out as straight down the middle neutral. Any thumb on the scale detected again needs to be called out by the group.
This is why Sashi, a "non-football guy" is better than any former player/coach/GM football guy for this process. Install football "knowledge" at the top of this approach, and it will never be what it can be.
A few more and you'll be first and 99...
Aside to D Bone: The above is part of the fuller explanation/answer I owe you.
If Sashi is the final say on issues in the front office, I would presume that covers draft picks. If Sashi is indeed not involved in talent evaluation, why did he and Depodesta go to see Rosen v. Darnold? Neither one is a scout.
-
Tour, you are also presuming that Sashi is a good leader of a consensus process.
-
Kind of a diverse set of opinions here as well should be this is not really a simple problem more a systematic problem which has caused a climate of losing.
Dynamite everything and start over? New scheme(s), coaches, players? Generally in these situations you start at the top but where first? New owners?
Stay tuned this might be even better than the Young & the Restless........which the wife and I are watching now.
-
Bring in Bernie Kosar for OC. He can still read defenses and would be good to have around, if not as an OC then a QB coach for these young QBs
-
Lol, nice poll Nero. I think it's funny that the poll proves majority of people agree with me.
That Jimmy is responsible, Hue needs an OC for this to work, and that we need to add consultants or talent evaluators to correctly make the right decisions on all of the draft capital we have, all stuff I've been preaching.
-
Look at the owner's hiring record with pilot flying J and the Browns.
Every exec at flying J confessed to crimes or are on trial. Every exec for the Browns...proven losers. Even the Jags got better when Jimmah hired sashi brown to run his team.
Look at the owner's hiring record with pilot flying J and the Browns.
Every exec at flying J confessed to crimes or are on trial. Every exec for the Browns...proven losers. Even the Jags got better when Jimmah hired sashi brown to run his team.
Fire them all. Sashi = Sashit
-
15 yards for Faulty Math... For any fixed percentage of hits in the draft, more picks = more hits...
15 more for continuing the myth of Sashi evaluating talent... The best leaders of consensus processes bring no opinions at all into their facilitation of the process, and on occasions that they may have an opinion, they ask permission of the group to even share it.
Every other uttereance they make, every testing question they ask, has to in the end net out as straight down the middle neutral. Any thumb on the scale detected again needs to be called out by the group.
This is why Sashi, a "non-football guy" is better than any former player/coach/GM football guy for this process. Install football "knowledge" at the top of this approach, and it will never be what it can be.
A few more and you'll be first and 99...
Aside to D Bone: The above is part of the fuller explanation/answer I owe you.
If Sashi is the final say on issues in the front office, I would presume that covers draft picks. If Sashi is indeed not involved in talent evaluation, why did he and Depodesta go to see Rosen v. Darnold? Neither one is a scout.
Yeah... effin' hilareous...
If Sashi is the final say on issues in the front office, I would presume that covers draft picks. If Sashi is indeed not involved in talent evaluation, why did he and Depodesta go to see Rosen v. Darnold? Neither one is a scout.
Frequent Flyer miles? Seriously, I'm going guess they had more than a few scouts there... and met with them. Maybe some other GMs as well. again execs that sit in their office are more prone to fail... and get bored to death. Plus getting away from the local press for a weekend in LA? Sounds like heaven to me. Bet the wives went, too.
Sashi has the power of the final say. It is important that he has authority commensurate with his position. It is equally... no... it is more important that he exercises that power as little as possible. He may or may not have ever used it. If he has, it was likely in the handling of a very serious disagreement around a decision. And it was far more likely in dealing with individuals' behaviors within the process than it was deciding the issue.
Tour, you are also presuming that Sashi is a good leader of a consensus process.
Nope... just taking the word of the man... the big boss... Jimmah! Said in his intro of Sashi when he named him the GM that he was a consensus builder like no one he had ever worked with before. Said in his presser when he announced the firings of Pet and Farmer:
" Effective today or tonight I should say, Sashi Brown will be our executive vice president of football operations. Sashi, I believe, is the right person to do this for the Cleveland Browns. He’s been in the NFL for 10 plus years, has been involved in the cap and has been heavily involved in our football administration and operations for the last year or two. He’s very smart, very organized, good at systems and processes and an outstanding team player. "
And even I had forgotten that the original plan as detailed in that same presser was:
"We’ll begin the search for the head coach right away. There are several key criteria we’re looking for in our head coach. The first is intelligence. We need somebody that’s smart. Obviously, we need somebody who’s a strong leader, somebody who is collaborative and can work well with others, a good team player, if you will. An individual that can put together a good staff, that’s incredibly important in today’s NFL as a complex as the game is, and somebody who has an intense desire to win and improve every day. The search committee will be made up of Jed Hughes with Korn Ferry... an international search firm... along with Sashi Brown, Dee and myself will head up the search committee. We’ll go to work right away. "
And here's the really cool, forgotten bit with the Sashi praise repeated for context... and emphasis...
"Once we hire a head coach, then we’ll go out and hire a GM. Let me talk about why we’re going to do this. Effective today or tonight I should say, Sashi Brown will be our executive vice president of football operations. Sashi, I believe, is the right person to do this for the Cleveland Browns. He’s been in the NFL for 10 plus years, has been involved in the cap and has been heavily involved in our football administration and operations for the last year or two. He’s very smart, very organized, good at systems and processes and an outstanding team player. He’s also very strategic so we will use those skills and working for him will be a GM whose primary job will be talent acquisition."
So the original plan was to do what the peanut gallery here wants to do now... and we didn't... somewhere along the way a better idea developed.
And Jimmah bought into it...
I'll dig up the "consensus" endorsement comments later, if I have time, but trust me... I'm not assuming a thing.
I will sleep well tonite.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Fire EVERYONE
-
Yeah... effin' hilareous...
If Sashi is the final say on issues in the front office, I would presume that covers draft picks. If Sashi is indeed not involved in talent evaluation, why did he and Depodesta go to see Rosen v. Darnold? Neither one is a scout.
Frequent Flyer miles? Seriously, I'm going guess they had more than a few scouts there... and met with them. Maybe some other GMs as well. again execs that sit in their office are more prone to fail... and get bored to death. Plus getting away from the local press for a weekend in LA? Sounds like heaven to me. Bet the wives went, too.
Sashi has the power of the final say. It is important that he has authority commensurate with his position. It is equally... no... it is more important that he exercises that power as little as possible. He may or may not have ever used it. If he has, it was likely in the handling of a very serious disagreement around a decision. And it was far more likely in dealing with individuals' behaviors within the process than it was deciding the issue.
Tour, you are also presuming that Sashi is a good leader of a consensus process.
Nope... just taking the word of the man... the big boss... Jimmah! Said in his intro of Sashi when he named him the GM that he was a consensus builder like no one he had ever worked with before. Said in his presser when he announced the firings of Pet and Farmer:
" Effective today or tonight I should say, Sashi Brown will be our executive vice president of football operations. Sashi, I believe, is the right person to do this for the Cleveland Browns. He’s been in the NFL for 10 plus years, has been involved in the cap and has been heavily involved in our football administration and operations for the last year or two. He’s very smart, very organized, good at systems and processes and an outstanding team player. "
And even I had forgotten that the original plan as detailed in that same presser was:
"We’ll begin the search for the head coach right away. There are several key criteria we’re looking for in our head coach. The first is intelligence. We need somebody that’s smart. Obviously, we need somebody who’s a strong leader, somebody who is collaborative and can work well with others, a good team player, if you will. An individual that can put together a good staff, that’s incredibly important in today’s NFL as a complex as the game is, and somebody who has an intense desire to win and improve every day. The search committee will be made up of Jed Hughes with Korn Ferry... an international search firm... along with Sashi Brown, Dee and myself will head up the search committee. We’ll go to work right away. "
And here's the really cool, forgotten bit with the Sashi praise repeated for context... and emphasis...
"Once we hire a head coach, then we’ll go out and hire a GM. Let me talk about why we’re going to do this. Effective today or tonight I should say, Sashi Brown will be our executive vice president of football operations. Sashi, I believe, is the right person to do this for the Cleveland Browns. He’s been in the NFL for 10 plus years, has been involved in the cap and has been heavily involved in our football administration and operations for the last year or two. He’s very smart, very organized, good at systems and processes and an outstanding team player. He’s also very strategic so we will use those skills and working for him will be a GM whose primary job will be talent acquisition."
So the original plan was to do what the peanut gallery here wants to do now... and we didn't... somewhere along the way a better idea developed.
And Jimmah bought into it...
I'll dig up the "consensus" endorsement comments later, if I have time, but trust me... I'm not assuming a thing.
I will sleep well tonite.
Yeah... effin' hilareous...
Frequent Flyer miles? Seriously, I'm going guess they had more than a few scouts there... and met with them. Maybe some other GMs as well. again execs that sit in their office are more prone to fail... and get bored to death. Plus getting away from the local press for a weekend in LA? Sounds like heaven to me. Bet the wives went, too.
Sashi has the power of the final say. It is important that he has authority commensurate with his position. It is equally... no... it is more important that he exercises that power as little as possible. He may or may not have ever used it. If he has, it was likely in the handling of a very serious disagreement around a decision. And it was far more likely in dealing with individuals' behaviors within the process than it was deciding the issue.
Nope... just taking the word of the man... the big boss... Jimmah! Said in his intro of Sashi when he named him the GM that he was a consensus builder like no one he had ever worked with before. Said in his presser when he announced the firings of Pet and Farmer:
" Effective today or tonight I should say, Sashi Brown will be our executive vice president of football operations. Sashi, I believe, is the right person to do this for the Cleveland Browns. He’s been in the NFL for 10 plus years, has been involved in the cap and has been heavily involved in our football administration and operations for the last year or two. He’s very smart, very organized, good at systems and processes and an outstanding team player. "
And even I had forgotten that the original plan as detailed in that same presser was:
"We’ll begin the search for the head coach right away. There are several key criteria we’re looking for in our head coach. The first is intelligence. We need somebody that’s smart. Obviously, we need somebody who’s a strong leader, somebody who is collaborative and can work well with others, a good team player, if you will. An individual that can put together a good staff, that’s incredibly important in today’s NFL as a complex as the game is, and somebody who has an intense desire to win and improve every day. The search committee will be made up of Jed Hughes with Korn Ferry... an international search firm... along with Sashi Brown, Dee and myself will head up the search committee. We’ll go to work right away. "
And here's the really cool, forgotten bit with the Sashi praise repeated for context... and emphasis...
"Once we hire a head coach, then we’ll go out and hire a GM. Let me talk about why we’re going to do this. Effective today or tonight I should say, Sashi Brown will be our executive vice president of football operations. Sashi, I believe, is the right person to do this for the Cleveland Browns. He’s been in the NFL for 10 plus years, has been involved in the cap and has been heavily involved in our football administration and operations for the last year or two. He’s very smart, very organized, good at systems and processes and an outstanding team player. He’s also very strategic so we will use those skills and working for him will be a GM whose primary job will be talent acquisition."
So the original plan was to do what the peanut gallery here wants to do now... and we didn't... somewhere along the way a better idea developed.
And Jimmah bought into it...
I'll dig up the "consensus" endorsement comments later, if I have time, but trust me... I'm not assuming a thing.
I will sleep well tonite.
Beginning to think Jimmah may not be the best judge of who is or is not a quality leader in any business setting. He may be so bad at it that it ends up with Jim in some cuffs.
-
What we should do is demote Hue Jackson to OC. He can do okay if that's all he has to worry about and doesn't get the say on who plays. The HC should give him the players and say, make THIS work, period. That is his only chance at this point. He doesn't make the right decisions on who plays and where and when. The Head Coach should have his hand on both the Offense and Defense, hell even some special teams here and there, but Hue doesn't have a clue what is happening on the defensive side of the ball.
If Hue won't take the OC job then tell him to take a hike and good luck finding another team willing to give a 1-25 HC another chance after the debacle that follows him from gameday to gameday.
The secret of getting ahead is getting started. The secret of getting started is breaking your complex overwhelming tasks into small manageable tasks, and then starting on the first one. -Mark Twain- "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." -Mark Twain- -
Hue Jackson say's he looking for leaders to step up on Offense. It's hard when the player's champion is sitting at 3rd string at QB.
Play Kevin Hogan MAN. Crazy Kevin is the leader on this team, he's almost the elder statesman on the team and an excellent leader for a young football team.
They players will follow Kevin to victories if Hue would just stop trying to cram Kizer down their throat. It's pretty simple bud, it's not rocket science as much as you guys would like to make it out to be. Kevin had ONE chance to make an impression and the pressure got to him that Texans game. It happens. But wake up to reality, the buzzer has been going off for weeks.
The secret of getting ahead is getting started. The secret of getting started is breaking your complex overwhelming tasks into small manageable tasks, and then starting on the first one. -Mark Twain- "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." -Mark Twain- -
PoG, your gimmick is awful. Pick a different one.
-
I don’t know if they are doing this in Berea, but I want to evaluate how everyone in this Board feels about The Process right now.
This poll has to be made considering YOU have to make the decisions, and those decisions have their consequences. For example, if you fire the GM, probably you would shut everything down. If you are OK firing either the coach or the FO and you don’t really care who gets fired as long as some changes are made, then make your mind up before voting so we can know what would you do.
I know it’s midseason, but I wanted to quantify how many people think one thing or another, and what would they do if the team was in their hands. That’s why I’ve tried to put every possibility in the poll, so everyone has a word.
I’m sorry if there are missing possibilities.
The poll is single choice question and private.
I’m not going to keep talking so this poll is as neutral as possible. Thanks for your time!
I don’t know if they are doing this in Berea, but I want to evaluate how everyone in this Board feels about The Process right now.
This poll has to be made considering YOU have to make the decisions, and those decisions have their consequences. For example, if you fire the GM, probably you would shut everything down. If you are OK firing either the coach or the FO and you don’t really care who gets fired as long as some changes are made, then make your mind up before voting so we can know what would you do.
I know it’s midseason, but I wanted to quantify how many people think one thing or another, and what would they do if the team was in their hands. That’s why I’ve tried to put every possibility in the poll, so everyone has a word.
I’m sorry if there are missing possibilities.
The poll is single choice question and private.
I’m not going to keep talking so this poll is as neutral as possible. Thanks for your time!
I agree with Tour on #1, all of the above except the players.
Hue Jackson say's he looking for leaders to step up on Offense. It's hard when the player's champion is sitting at 3rd string at QB.
Play Kevin Hogan MAN. Crazy Kevin is the leader on this team, he's almost the elder statesman on the team and an excellent leader for a young football team.
They players will follow Kevin to victories if Hue would just stop trying to cram Kizer down their throat. It's pretty simple bud, it's not rocket science as much as you guys would like to make it out to be. Kevin had ONE chance to make an impression and the pressure got to him that Texans game. It happens. But wake up to reality, the buzzer has been going off for weeks.
PO it's not going to happen. Hue said as much. Only way Hogan sees the field is if Kizer gets hurt. I mostly agree I've seen enough of Kizer to think he's not the answer- Hue and the gang must think so too, or they wouldn't have made an effort to overpay for McCarron. However, everyone but you thinks there's nothing to be gained by playing Kevin he has a limited skill set.
I doubt Hue would ever take a demotion. I'm on board with Tour's suggestion that Jackson is trying to do too damn much, & that will be addressed in the off season- one way or another.
-
Also, if we are discussing "the truth", this FO and coach are awful. Sashi has the right strategy but it puts you in the position of having to hit on more of those accrued picks. You can't strip down the roster then expect to have a margin of error come draft time. Sashi has shat the bed, most notably at QB and WR evaluations.
Sashi has shat the bed, pretty much only at QB and WR evaluations.
FIFY
-
1. The owner is at fault because he's the one that's continually fired everyone way too fast.
2. Nothing
3. Add an OC. Glad to see that's the plurality opinion. Would be interested to see where the 30% of people who think we can fire Hue but keep Gregg would land when told that that wasn't going to happen.
-
Hue Jackson say's he looking for leaders to step up on Offense. It's hard when the player's champion is sitting at 3rd string at QB.
Play Kevin Hogan MAN. Crazy Kevin is the leader on this team, he's almost the elder statesman on the team and an excellent leader for a young football team.
They players will follow Kevin to victories if Hue would just stop trying to cram Kizer down their throat. It's pretty simple bud, it's not rocket science as much as you guys would like to make it out to be. Kevin had ONE chance to make an impression and the pressure got to him that Texans game. It happens. But wake up to reality, the buzzer has been going off for weeks.
Hue Jackson say's he looking for leaders to step up on Offense. It's hard when the player's champion is sitting at 3rd string at QB.
Play Kevin Hogan MAN. Crazy Kevin is the leader on this team, he's almost the elder statesman on the team and an excellent leader for a young football team.
They players will follow Kevin to victories if Hue would just stop trying to cram Kizer down their throat. It's pretty simple bud, it's not rocket science as much as you guys would like to make it out to be. Kevin had ONE chance to make an impression and the pressure got to him that Texans game. It happens. But wake up to reality, the buzzer has been going off for weeks.
How is he almost the elder statesman on the team. Also, "Crazy Kevin"? Lol
-
MOD EDIT: This was written by Tony Grossi, take it FWIW
Dire times: Since Hue Jackson brought it up, I ask: What is the Browns’ plan?
Is it self-preservation?
Keep rolling draft picks and salary cap room into the future, so that, in the name of continuity and stability, and by taking advantage of the owners’ trauma of being ridiculed for blowing it up again, everybody’s job is secured until next year, which never comes?
Or is the plan to win?
If the plan is to win, then the plan is not working. Check that. The plan is failing in such an astonishing degree that it threatens to eradicate the very fabric that bonds Cleveland to the Browns.
Generations of Browns fans are beyond disgust. They are succumbing to poisonous apathy.
In 33 years of chronicling the Browns, of warring with owners and executives and coaches, of arguing for the rightful place in the Pro Football Hall of Fame for some of the franchise’s best players, and arguing against the inclusion of one owner, of reporting on some of the city’s most heart-breaking sports moments and some of the most exhilarating victories, I can honestly say these are the most worrisome times for this franchise since Art Modell absconded the last one to Baltimore.
When Peyton Manning visited Cleveland last month for an undisclosed reason -- a Browns source said it was unrelated to the team -- Manning casually asked a native of the area about the mood of Browns fans.
I don’t know if Manning was just making conversation or if he was trying to gauge what he might be getting into if he accepted Jimmy Haslam’s assumed open invitation to rescue him and the rest of us from the incompetence that has extinguished hope in this once-great, now-tarnished franchise.
Shame on the Haslams for sinking this precious Cleveland asset to the lowest point in its history, infinitely lower than even Randy Lerner achieved.
Make it stop: I have this new recurring nightmare.
The Haslams decide to give their undefined plan another year, mostly out of fear of ridicule for blowing it up again but also because they have no alternative.
Free agency starts in March. The analytics group favors signing quarterback Tyrod Taylor, who is destined to be let go by the Buffalo Bills. Jackson favors signing Cincinnati Bengals free agent AJ McCarron.
After all the losses, all the draft-day snubs of bona-fide franchise quarterback hopefuls, after all the trade-downs and stockpiling of assets, after all the mis-evaluations and nonsensical SPARQ score comparisons, after all the Fantasy Football conversation that goes on there, the Browns’ next quarterback comes down to these two unspectacular choices?
It’s a knock-down, drag-out fight – par for the course in that toxic building. All the network insiders detail the in-fighting breathlessly. One of them wins, one of them loses. It doesn’t matter which.
The draft season comes next. USC’s Sam Darnold, like other Trojan quarterbacks before him, decides to return to the safe haven of college football. UCLA’s Josh Rosen, through his representation, informs the Browns he will not play for them.
The Browns, of course, believe him and meekly trade the first overall pick in the draft. Analytics sites will praise them for this, of course.
And with their second No. 1 pick, the one acquired from Houston when Sashi Brown hand-delivered Deshaun Watson to friend Rick Smith, the Texans’ GM, the Browns select …
Please, no …
… Heisman Trophy favorite Baker Mayfield.
The crotch-grabbing Johnny Manziel impersonator has Cleveland Browns written all over him, right? Can’t you see Haslam falling for this punk? All it takes is a well-versed text from Mayfield to an underling to make it happen.
Is this our future if the Haslams keep status quo?
Recuse yourselves, please: No one is to blame for this state of the Browns other than the Haslams. Since Dee wants to be considered an owner, she must take responsibility, too. She fell for the outside-the-box, analytics-over-football approach pitched by the head-hunter search firm Korn Ferry, too.
One of the fundamental flaws of the Haslam organization is having everybody report to them. Sashi Brown has one Haslam ear, Jackson the other. Nobody can clearly define what Paul DePodesta does, working from LaJolla, CA. Everyone wonders which Haslam will have more influence on what happens next. The set-up engenders disagreement, ego-clashing, unaccountability and ultimately Machiavellianism.
What the Haslams need to do is fill the void of team president with someone they trust – if that person exists -- and have that person reconstruct the organization for them.
The president should have proven experience in the National Football League – not baseball, basketball, hockey, truck-stopping, or anything else.
The president should hire a general manager and the president should hire a coach.
It is not relevant which one is hired first – coach or GM. The vision of the person hired first is what’s important. And the first hire should contribute to the second hire, but not mandate who it is. It’s the president’s call.
The president then presides over the bilateral football organization, rules over disputes and holds each office to its task.
The president establishes the culture and enforces it.
The Haslams stay out of the way, entertain on football Sundays and pay the bills. That is what the good owners do.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login