Some other rookie qb's stats with Kizer's
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I strongly believe that we lost some games because of Kizer, but we lost others because of other factors, like D, Hue, FGs, fumbles, special teams... We just found ways to lose every game.
As @dutch-oven has said, the Browns did zero favors to Kizer:
- Awful receivers, drops.
- Couldn't practise with Coleman and Gordon for most of the season (this helps to develop timing with receivers and to be in the same page)
- Little offensive scheme adaptation to his skills (thanks Hue). He was required to make more post-snap reads than many other QBs, and that's hard for a rookie: you should make it easier for him, not harder.
- Late playcalling. Goff improved a lot, in part thanks to McVay giving him the call right away, so he had 15-20 seconds under center and his coach could help him reading the defense (headphone shuts down at 10). Kizer had 10 many times.
- NO RUSHING ATTACK. Hue left all the offense on Kizer's shoulders, when we should have focused on running more.
Now, what I see on Kizer:
PROS:
- Age, he was 21. It has been said a hundred times that he was raw even for his college coach.
- Resilience. He took big hits, never got injured. A concussion for a free sack (at Lions) is something no QB can avoid. He's tough. He only had a migraine in one game, still played half of it.
- Maturity. He looks like a serious guy and tries his best.
- He can use his legs, learned during season to push for a few more yards.
- Strong arm.
CONS:
- Reading the field
- Lack of touch (he can't do a fade pass in the endzone)
- Accuracy . His redzone stats are awful, on intermediate passes he throws too low many times.
- Regressing at some points. I.E. he held the ball too long in first games, then improved on that, and on season's finale did it again. You think he has learnt something but he later does the same mistake he did 3 games ago. At least that's what I felt.
- Few snaps under center.
To sum up, it was the worst position to play in NFL last year. I don't know how a rookie Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers, or Brees would have looked there. For example, it's logical to panick in a 0-13 team and make a stupid throw across your body or stuff like that. I don't think you can ask a rookie to win games for you with the little help he was given.
Good thing is that we can add two QBs on March and April and see on training camp what has he improved. He has way more games on his back than any other 2017 rookie QB, so he has way more experience and can learn from the many mistakes he made, to fix them during offseason. I wish he hires a coach, goes through all his tape, and works his butt off to fix mechanics, reading, accuracy, et al. I really root for this guy, and it only helps the team having some competition in the QB position.
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I disagree with comparing Kizer with QB’s from the past; it’s highly unlikely to forecast future results. There are too many variables that prohibit that, like holding the ball too long and not looking off safeties, both of which Kizer showed no improvement on as the season progressed. During the season many sport writers were call for Kizer’s head until the last game but once the season was over they came out and changed their tune by saying you “have to look at things in perspective”. Perspective bought the Browns a 0-16 season and the everlasting hope that next year will be better. I have to tell you next year never comes. The definition of insanitary is doing things the same way and expecting a different RESULT.
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@boo-fagley said:
So, you guys are comfortable with not using a 1st on QB.
The answer for me is "it depends". We're not getting Kirk Cousins, but if we somehow do, then I don't want a QB at #1. More likely is us trading for Alex Smith, but due to his age, I'd still want to draft a QB early. Perhaps not #1, but definitely in the first round. Perhaps we trade down SLIGHTLY if we can find a partner, and take Baker Mayfield around 12-14? Draft CB/S Minkah Fitzpatrick at #4, get some more picks in the trade, and then draft Mayfield? Yeah, I’d be TOTALLY cool with that!
If we don’t get Alex Smith, we probably have to take our favorite QB at #1. Heck, many people would probably STILL want us to take our favorite QB at #1 even if we DO trade for Alex, but that’s not the move I’d make. I like a lot of physical traits about Rosen, but I’m just not sure he’s the right guy for the Cleveland Browns. Playing QB for the Browns isn’t a job for someone rumored to be snobby, entitled, and recently twice-concussed. Sam Darnold scares the CRAP out of me, and while I agree he has a lot of enticing attributes, I’m so terrified of watching another QB turn it over constantly.
I keep going back to Kizer in my head, and thinking that many people seem to be writing him off. It’s easy to do considering the bumpy year he had, veteran QBs who might be available, and us having the 1st and 4th pick. But has rough as Kizer was in 2017, something tells me he’s going to be in the mix if we somehow don’t get one of the top available veteran QBs. I just don’t see a rookie beating him out, and I see Kizer working his BUTT off during the offseason. He’ll also know the system, the language, the protection, and the players. Many QB’s talk about just how fast the game was during their rookie season, and how the game “slowed down for them” in year 2. If that holds true for Kizer, it wouldn’t surprise me at all to see him keep the job. I’m not saying “Kizer is definitely the man!” or anything, but he’s got a chance.
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Accuracy, accuracy, accuracy ...
Probably the hardest thing to change/improve upon.
There is a lot to like about the kid. And we have him on a friendly four year deal while we try to find out if he can do it. He's got 15 starts under his belt and he just turned 22 this week.
But he'll be backing up somebody next year, whether it is a top veteran or the #1 overall pick ... he'll have to fight hard and improve to ever be a starter gain.
I'm rooting for him.
Zombo
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I'm not doing to disagree in the slightest that we didn't do Kizer any favors.
But with 15 starts under your belt, towards the later 3-4 starts it's time to start showing SOMETHING to say "hey, we can look past the numbers a bit because of the marked improvement". That has to come regardless of the situation.
Let me ask then, did Kizer do ANYTHING of the sort to show he's not going to make the same lousy mistakes from weeks 1-3? In fact, I'd argue he got worse as time went on and teams scouted for him. That's the difference when you go beyond looking at raw numbers.
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Accuracy I'll agree somewhat there but many of his bad throws were just forcing the ball in red zone situations bad judgment and rookie inexperience. Accuracy can be improved upon in offseason drills with a good quarterback guru. Also to beat a dead horse again having better WRs that can catch and go deep would be nice.
Will he be a franchise quarterback who knows probably not, some other quarterbacks have found themselves in years two and three.
Remember too 0-16 and 1-31 means that you have a bad team with missing parts.
........oh let's home Flash Gordon continues to improve and not move to Canada with Johnny Football.
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@boo-fagley said:
So, you guys are comfortable with not using a 1st on QB.
Maybe...I will start a new thread on that.
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Kizer needs to call Kosar and hang out with him watching film over the winter.
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Kizer needs to call Kosar and hang out with him watching film over the winter.
Kizer doesn’t need to get drunk.
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Kizer doesn’t need to get drunk.
Before the pitt-Browns game, Kosar was talking about pittsburps offense and defense -
it was excellent stuff. and he has been working on all the slurring, etc, eating right, etc...and he didn't slur one bit.
He's doing really well. and he's still one of the most brilliant qb minds that ever played the game.
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Kizer doesn’t need to get drunk.
Before the pitt-Browns game, Kosar was talking about pittsburps offense and defense -
it was excellent stuff. and he has been working on all the slurring, etc, eating right, etc...and he didn't slur one bit.
He's doing really well. and he's still one of the most brilliant qb minds that ever played the game.
Before the pitt-Browns game, Kosar was talking about pittsburps offense and defense -
it was excellent stuff. and he has been working on all the slurring, etc, eating right, etc...and he didn't slur one bit.
He's doing really well. and he's still one of the most brilliant qb minds that ever played the game.
i agree, would love to get Bernie involved either as QB coach or even better, as Hue's new OC. Would be great to have someone who's passionate about the team as part of the coaching staff, maybe it would inspire those guys to get out and play and actually remember how to catch and tackle.
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If Kizer's only "touch issue" was the accuracy of his corner fade throws, then I'd still be borderline giddy about his chances, but as the season wore on... as the cries about him holding the ball too long waned due to this and other areas of improvement... as he stopped throwing fastballs to every receivers regardless of their distance from him...the deficiency that emerged was his touch in general.
What comes naturally to most of the backyard QBs on this forum, because we can't throw a 30-yd rope, reduces Kizer to awkward. Most of worm-burners he threw in the last six games were the product of aimed passes he tried to take some pace off. He just doesn't have "the feel"... that unconscious, automatic, instantaneous compensation of launch angles for pace... and to me that is shocking for a kid who has played QB as long as he has.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
If Kizer's only "touch issue" was the accuracy of his corner fade throws, then I'd still be borderline giddy about his chances, but as the season wore on... as the cries about him holding the ball too long waned due to this and other areas of improvement... as he stopped throwing fastballs to every receivers regardless of their distance from him...the deficiency that emerged was his touch in general.
What comes naturally to most of the backyard QBs on this forum, because we can't throw a 30-yd rope, reduces Kizer to awkward. Most of worm-burners he threw in the last six games were the product of aimed passes he tried to take some pace off. He just doesn't have "the feel"... that unconscious, automatic, instantaneous compensation of launch angles for pace... and to me that is shocking for a kid who has played QB as long as he has.
If Kizer's only "touch issue" was the accuracy of his corner fade throws, then I'd still be borderline giddy about his chances, but as the season wore on... as the cries about him holding the ball too long waned due to this and other areas of improvement... as he stopped throwing fastballs to every receivers regardless of their distance from him...the deficiency that emerged was his touch in general.
What comes naturally to most of the backyard QBs on this forum, because we can't throw a 30-yd rope, reduces Kizer to awkward. Most of worm-burners he threw in the last six games were the product of aimed passes he tried to take some pace off. He just doesn't have "the feel"... that unconscious, automatic, instantaneous compensation of launch angles for pace... and to me that is shocking for a kid who has played QB as long as he has.
Remember Chuck Knoblach....2d baseman for the Yankees, I believe. He went through a stretch where he could not for the life of him throw the ball from his spot at 2d base over to the first baseman with any accuracy at all.....balls in the dirt, over the 1st baseman's head, too far left....too far right. Nothing. Blake Bortles looked a bit like that the other day.....and Kizer has that in him some. With Knoblach...it was just a mental thing. With Kizer...I just think that is who he is.....completely inaccurate.
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No, I'm not. IMHO, we need to draft a QB #1. I would consider keeping Kizer as basically a 3rd QB to see whether or not he develops.
Mike
In year two Kizer would be an adequate 2nd QB if they can land a current FA or other trade/deal. To draft yet another rookie QB savior #1 may or may not work. I'd rater work on building the team with best available blue chip players with their plethora of picks, a good second round QB might work as a project QB.
All of this and more to be kicked around between now and April 26.
@boo-fagley said:
So, you guys are comfortable with not using a 1st on QB.
Nope, I will have a hissy fit if they don't. I'm pretty sure they will though.
In year two Kizer would be an adequate 2nd QB if they can land a current FA or other trade/deal. To draft yet another rookie QB savior #1 may or may not work. I'd rater work on building the team with best available blue chip players with their plethora of picks, a good second round QB might work as a project QB.
All of this and more to be kicked around between now and April 26.
Yes, and the QB we draft #1 overall will be third on the depth chart. Kizer was a second round project BTW. Too many QBs will go off the board in the first round, we're not shopping the bargain bin this year. Looks like Tour has come around to my way of thinking, way too risky to hope Kizer can develop. You want a project? We take Benkert as the second QB later in the draft.
We haven't drafted a QB high since Tim Couch, it's time to change the trend. The Bengals kept swinging high on busts like Dave Kingler and Akilli Smith, then they hit on Carson Palmer.
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If Kizer's only "touch issue" was the accuracy of his corner fade throws, then I'd still be borderline giddy about his chances, but as the season wore on... as the cries about him holding the ball too long waned due to this and other areas of improvement... as he stopped throwing fastballs to every receivers regardless of their distance from him...the deficiency that emerged was his touch in general.
What comes naturally to most of the backyard QBs on this forum, because we can't throw a 30-yd rope, reduces Kizer to awkward. Most of worm-burners he threw in the last six games were the product of aimed passes he tried to take some pace off. He just doesn't have "the feel"... that unconscious, automatic, instantaneous compensation of launch angles for pace... and to me that is shocking for a kid who has played QB as long as he has.
Remember Chuck Knoblach....2d baseman for the Yankees, I believe. He went through a stretch where he could not for the life of him throw the ball from his spot at 2d base over to the first baseman with any accuracy at all.....balls in the dirt, over the 1st baseman's head, too far left....too far right. Nothing. Blake Bortles looked a bit like that the other day.....and Kizer has that in him some. With Knoblach...it was just a mental thing. With Kizer...I just think that is who he is.....completely inaccurate.
Remember Chuck Knoblach....2d baseman for the Yankees, I believe. He went through a stretch where he could not for the life of him throw the ball from his spot at 2d base over to the first baseman with any accuracy at all.....balls in the dirt, over the 1st baseman's head, too far left....too far right. Nothing. Blake Bortles looked a bit like that the other day.....and Kizer has that in him some. With Knoblach...it was just a mental thing. With Kizer...I just think that is who he is.....completely inaccurate.
Great example that I think you are misapplying...
As I remember it Knoblach's issues arose when he had time to think about the throw such as when a hard ground ball was hit right at him. When he had to react quickly throwing was not an issue. I see Kizer having to think about taking pace off throws that he has not rehearsed such as screens.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Remember Chuck Knoblach....2d baseman for the Yankees, I believe. He went through a stretch where he could not for the life of him throw the ball from his spot at 2d base over to the first baseman with any accuracy at all.....balls in the dirt, over the 1st baseman's head, too far left....too far right. Nothing. Blake Bortles looked a bit like that the other day.....and Kizer has that in him some. With Knoblach...it was just a mental thing. With Kizer...I just think that is who he is.....completely inaccurate.
Great example that I think you are misapplying...
As I remember it Knoblach's issues arose when he had time to think about the throw such as when a hard ground ball was hit right at him. When he had to react quickly throwing was not an issue. I see Kizer having to think about taking pace off throws that he has not rehearsed such as screens.
Great example that I think you are misapplying...
As I remember it Knoblach's issues arose when he had time to think about the throw such as when a hard ground ball was hit right at him. When he had to react quickly throwing was not an issue. I see Kizer having to think about taking pace off throws that he has not rehearsed such as screens.
It is an example of two guys who could not hit the broad sign of a barn door...so there is no misapplication there...whatever the reason for their failures.
And...are you saying that you believe that Kizer never practiced throwing screens? A. I find that completely hard to believe..or B. If true...it is a clue of just what a fuyucked up job Hue has done coaching him.
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