Are you all so sure Kizer can't be your QB?
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Not a bad job of defending your point; but this guy didn't make himself a consensus #1 QB of a draft class like Aikman did. There's some 70s lyrics popularized by England Dan and John Ford Coley that go like this: "It's sad to belong to someone else when the right one comes along."
They're going to keep Kizer here so he'll get more chances. That said, they're also going to try to improve the QB competition here that will will make the position stronger (if we ever get the right guys here)....
One huge difference Aikman had good talent around him to start in 1989....
Aikman would eventually win three Super Bowl rings with the Cowboys, and led the team to four consecutive NFC championship games - 1992, 1993, 1994 and 1995 seasons, with victories in 1992, 1993, and 1995.
Kizer isn't there now.
One huge difference Aikman had good talent around him to start in 1989....
Aikman would eventually win three Super Bowl rings with the Cowboys, and led the team to four consecutive NFC championship games - 1992, 1993, 1994 and 1995 seasons, with victories in 1992, 1993, and 1995.
Kizer isn't there now.
Thanks for the reply. I disagree that Aikman had good talent around him in 89 and here's why. I think the only BIG name guy there was Michael Irvin - just 1 year after the 3-13 talent pool got a HOF Coach Tom Landry fired. Emmitt Smith and Jay Novacek weren't there yet while future Pro Bowl Lineman like Erik Williams, Larry Allen and Marc Stepnoski had yet to be drafted. FB Moose Johnston was just a rookie so the play makers he was sentenced to were: RB Paul Palmer, WR Derrick Sheppard, WR Kelvin Martin, and TE Steve Folsom. He got 2 concussions just from the Philadelphia Eagles as a rookie QB reminding me he needed way more help than what was there.
Again, Aikman was a consensus #1 QB that was drafted 1st overall while Kizer was polarizing at best prior to joining a 1-15 team here. He was drafted somewhere in the middle of round 2 in a QB draft class that labelled many of its top QB prospects NFL projects. The only thing that closely resembles that Cowboys team and their QB situation is the volume of draft picks they got from a Herschel Walker trade to expedite the emergence out of growing pains (while trades have this team set up for 5 picks in the first 2 rounds). Unfortunately, I don't think this equips Kizer with the same accuracy and football IQ Troy had. I've certainly been wrong before though - especially now with the types of offenses today's QBs in being trained in at the college level.
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Right in a way the triplets weren't together yet and the key to it all on the ground the road graders at OL were forming but they had the right coach and even the organization after all they were "AMERICA'S TEAM" (barf) right?
The meteoric rise from 1989 to Champs in 1992 was in place to happen.
GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND! -
Kizer has 0 QB instincts.. Thats the difference between him and the greats like Aikman and of course,, Manning..(Peyton)
Kizer has 0 QB instincts.. Thats the difference between him and the greats like Aikman and of course,, Manning..(Peyton)
Oh no doubt Kizer is not a franchise QB but on this team in 2018 the question is,.........
Are you all so sure Kizer can't be your QB?
GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND! -
Right in a way the triplets weren't together yet and the key to it all on the ground the road graders at OL were forming but they had the right coach and even the organization after all they were "AMERICA'S TEAM" (barf) right?
The meteoric rise from 1989 to Champs in 1992 was in place to happen.
Right in a way the triplets weren't together yet and the key to it all on the ground the road graders at OL were forming but they had the right coach and even the organization after all they were "AMERICA'S TEAM" (barf) right?
The meteoric rise from 1989 to Champs in 1992 was in place to happen.
True but Jimmy Johnson's first record in 89 was 1-15 with the task of overhauling talent on both sides of the ball. IF Jimmy J and Jerry J didn't make the Herschel Walker trade expediting the arrival of help - I'm guessing the Troy Aikman story has a few more concussions and growing pains. Another important variable in all this was pegging guys right with draft criteria and egos at the top working together (at least long enough to get it all off the ground).
This off season is a tremendous opportunity for the FO. Regardless of what people think of Sashi's draft choices, Dorsey made it a point to say Sashi set him up good for his first draft here and rightfully so. 5 draft picks in the first 2 rounds can jumper cable us right out of park especially if the people making the choices can tell the difference between a Michael Thomas and a Corey Coleman.
I think we have room to add a pick of the litter at QB especially when #4 overall puts us in position to add a pick of the litter at another position. Then we have 3 picks in round 2 plus a lot of cake to compete for the yes price tags of FA.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
This is something I've been coming around on more and more, but the problem remains that you can't bet the farm on Kizer being the guy. I would really like to know where this year's QBs rank with the past few year's QBs. That make sense? Like, coming out of school, head to head, where do Rosen, Darnold, Allen, and Mayfield rank when compared to...say...Wentz, Goff, Watson, Mahomes, Trubisky, and others? I honestly don't know.
Kizer will get the full advantage of knowing the offensive system, the players, the protections, and a full year of big-boy experience under his belt. That can't be understated, and if the game ever slows down for Kizer and he gets his confidence, I DO think he has what it takes to make it. But even saying all that, we still need to take a QB early because there's no way to know, and we simply HAVE TO throw as many darts against the board as possible until we get it right.
Another question is, do you still take a QB at 1 if we bring in a veteran QB? Obviously it depends on WHO the guy is, but even if it's Alex Smith at 35 years old, I happen to believe it opens up some options. Imagine getting 3 years of "No worry" QB play. Is it guaranteed? Of course not, but QBs that take care of their body can play to 38, perhaps a little longer if they don't get beaten up. In this scenario, Kizer is the backup. That's not too bad in the world of backup qb's, and who knows, maybe Kizer gets significantly better this year?
All I know is, it's going to be nutso come March. We're probably going to draft a QB early, we're probably not getting Alex Smith, and Kizer probably won't end up being a franchise QB. BUT...I wouldn't bet against him either.
Kizer will get the full advantage of knowing the offensive system, the players, the protections, and a full year of big-boy experience under his belt.
We really can't say that without knowing the offensive coordinator situation.
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
Right in a way the triplets weren't together yet and the key to it all on the ground the road graders at OL were forming but they had the right coach and even the organization after all they were "AMERICA'S TEAM" (barf) right?
The meteoric rise from 1989 to Champs in 1992 was in place to happen.
True but Jimmy Johnson's first record in 89 was 1-15 with the task of overhauling talent on both sides of the ball. IF Jimmy J and Jerry J didn't make the Herschel Walker trade expediting the arrival of help - I'm guessing the Troy Aikman story has a few more concussions and growing pains. Another important variable in all this was pegging guys right with draft criteria and egos at the top working together (at least long enough to get it all off the ground).
This off season is a tremendous opportunity for the FO. Regardless of what people think of Sashi's draft choices, Dorsey made it a point to say Sashi set him up good for his first draft here and rightfully so. 5 draft picks in the first 2 rounds can jumper cable us right out of park especially if the people making the choices can tell the difference between a Michael Thomas and a Corey Coleman.
I think we have room to add a pick of the litter at QB especially when #4 overall puts us in position to add a pick of the litter at another position. Then we have 3 picks in round 2 plus a lot of cake to compete for the yes price tags of FA.
True but Jimmy Johnson's first record in 89 was 1-15 with the task of overhauling talent on both sides of the ball. IF Jimmy J and Jerry J didn't make the Herschel Walker trade expediting the arrival of help - I'm guessing the Troy Aikman story has a few more concussions and growing pains. Another important variable in all this was pegging guys right with draft criteria and egos at the top working together (at least long enough to get it all off the ground).
Also true one of the most important and biggest dumbazz deals of all time, given the circumstances. Briefly....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_trade
.......Four games into the 1989 season, Jimmy Johnson, then head coach of the Dallas Cowboys, came up with the idea to trade Walker while on a morning jog with his staff. Johnson felt the Cowboys were so terrible that only a blockbuster trade could help them. He briefly considered trading wide receiver Michael Irvin to the Los Angeles Raiders, but Raiders owner Al Davisessentially talked Johnson out of the trade by saying, "You sure you want to do that? Who is going to catch passes for you?" Johnson felt that Walker was the only remaining bargaining chip they had.
A number of teams contacted the Cowboys when they announced that they would trade Walker. The New York Giants expressed interest, but the trade would have been unfavorable for Dallas since both teams were in the NFC East division. The Atlanta Falcons entered into negotiations, but eventually pulled out over fear of Walker's future contract demands. The most serious offer came from the Cleveland Browns.
Johnson stated, "[The Browns] offered us a player, a couple of future number one draft picks and three number two draft picks." The Cowboys felt this was a favorable offer, but they also felt that if another team were to enter the discussion, then they could generate a bidding war and thereby get even more compensation. Jimmy Johnson and team owner Jerry Jones decided to contact other clubs to generate buzz and create leverage. Johnson contacted Minnesota Vikings General Manager Mike Lynn. Johnson told Lynn that he was going to trade Walker to Cleveland that afternoon, and that if Minnesota would like to trade for Walker, then it would cost them "players, draft picks, conditional picks, and provisions", giving Lynn a deadline of 6:30 p.m. Lynn, feeling Walker was the missing piece to a Super Bowl run, faxed Johnson that he was interested, and soon after negotiations ensued. In order to get Walker to agree to a trade, the Cowboys paid him a $1.25 million "exit bonus"......
...... (could the BROWNS do this today, so you want to be a dealer?)
- Players/Draft Picks Received by the Minnesota Vikings
- RB Herschel Walker
- Dallas's 3rd round pick – 1990 (54) (Mike Jones)
- Dallas's 5th round pick – 1990 (116) (Reggie Thornton)
- Dallas's 10th round pick – 1990 (249) (Pat Newman)
- Dallas's 3rd round pick – 1991 (68) (Jake Reed)
- Players/Draft Picks Received by the Dallas Cowboys
- LB Jesse Solomon
- LB David Howard
- CB Issiac Holt
- RB Darrin Nelson (traded to San Diego after he refused to report to Dallas)
- DE Alex Stewart
- Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1990 (21) (traded this pick along with pick (81) for pick (17) from Pittsburgh to draft Emmitt Smith)
- Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1990 (47) (Alexander Wright)
- Minnesota's 6th round pick in 1990 (158) (traded to New Orleans, who drafted James Williams)
- Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1991 (conditional on cutting Solomon) – (12) (Alvin Harper)
- Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1991 (conditional on cutting Howard) – (38) (Dixon Edwards)
- Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1992 (conditional on cutting Holt) – (37) (Darren Woodson)
- Minnesota's 3rd round pick in 1992 (conditional on cutting Nelson) – (71) (traded to New England, who drafted Kevin Turner)
- Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1993 (conditional on cutting Stewart) – (13) (traded to Philadelphia Eagles, and then to the Houston Oilers, who drafted Brad Hopkins)
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The Vikings had assumed that they got the better end of the deal, but not knowing at the time, Head Coach Jimmy Johnson was interested only in the draft choices and not the players (although cornerback Issiac Holt remained on the team through Super Bowl XXVII). Dallas ended up with a total of six of Minnesota's picks over the succeeding years, two 1st round and one 2nd round picks were used to draft Emmitt Smith and Darren Woodson, winning multiple Super Bowls and being voted on to go to the Pro Bowl numerous times. Jimmy Johnson used the other draft picks to make trades with other teams around the NFL. One of the trades led to obtaining the first overall draft pick in 1991, which was used to draft Russell Maryland. In other words, the trade of Walker to the Vikings contributed largely to the Cowboys' success in the early 1990s. For this reason, ESPN.com lists it as the 8th most lopsided trade in sports history.[4] 17 years later, the trade was still an easy target for satire: one ESPN columnist, assessing the impact of free agency on the NFL, noted that it had almost entirely replaced significant trades and by doing so "took away one of the greatest shortcuts to becoming a Super Bowl champion: fleecing the Vikings."[5]
The trade was detailed in an ESPN 30 for 30 film, The Great Trade Robbery.
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In thinking about the Dallas train robbery deal what blue chip players do the BROWNS have now?
ANSWER: None? Better keep building guys! There are some good players in this draft.
GO BROWNS 2019!
GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND! -
Don't you remember how bad Aikman and Bradshaw were their first year and until they were surrounded by talented skill players? Wouldn't it be smart to simply draft your first choice at 1, but still let Kizer have a half year or more if necessary surrounded by talent. Still bringing in an experienced older qb to teach both of your young qbs. You then have hopefully 2 young qbs starter and backup on the cheap for 4 years. The older experienced guy to mentor will come cheap since he won't be coming to actually be a starter ..... ie. Maybe a Josh McCown type.
Don't you remember how bad Aikman and Bradshaw were their first year and until they were surrounded by talented skill players? Wouldn't it be smart to simply draft your first choice at 1, but still let Kizer have a half year or more if necessary surrounded by talent. Still bringing in an experienced older qb to teach both of your young qbs. You then have hopefully 2 young qbs starter and backup on the cheap for 4 years. The older experienced guy to mentor will come cheap since he won't be coming to actually be a starter ..... ie. Maybe a Josh McCown type.
I have said this all along. I didn't want another black Tarkenton, but, he is here and he has not been given a proper opportunity.
His physical skills, really, are superior to any QB entering the 2018 draft. Browns fans are Shmucking idiots. The kid (a second round afterthought) throws a perfect waning moments pass to Coleman (Over rated #1 WR draft pick) and the piece of schidt drops the ball, giving the Steelers a victory, and it is a bad reflection on KIZER?
WTF is wrong with Browns fans? How the fukc can they be so stupid as to be on the wrong side of every fukcing issue and personel decision?
Haden blows..........but he is playing well for someone else - - - - - - Harrison is washed up - - - - But he is making plays for Belichik and going to yet more playoff games - - - - Wenz, and Goff are just not that good - - - - We don't need Julio Jones, he isn't that good - - - - ...................SO we get shcidt like Two Tackle Texas and Corey Coleslaw.
Idiots. Idiot fans, Idiot city, Idiot franchise.
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In thinking about the Dallas train robbery deal what blue chip players do the BROWNS have now?
ANSWER: None? Better keep building guys! There are some good players in this draft.
GO BROWNS 2019!
In thinking about the Dallas train robbery deal what blue chip players do the BROWNS have now?
ANSWER: None? Better keep building guys! There are some good players in this draft.
GO BROWNS 2019!
Don't kill my buzz before I even get one. True but their 3-13 that got Landry fired followed by 1-15 in JJ's Rookie NFL HC gig showed us similar bare cupboards pre-Herschel trade. Some might even argue Russell Maryland never played up to a #1 overall pick status either. Dallas made some mistakes along the way - they just had enough picks to make missing on some forgivable. These 1st 5 picks in 2 rounds this year with some good FA choices could change things considerably.
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In thinking about the Dallas train robbery deal what blue chip players do the BROWNS have now?
ANSWER: None? Better keep building guys! There are some good players in this draft.
GO BROWNS 2019!
Don't kill my buzz before I even get one. True but their 3-13 that got Landry fired followed by 1-15 in JJ's Rookie NFL HC gig showed us similar bare cupboards pre-Herschel trade. Some might even argue Russell Maryland never played up to a #1 overall pick status either. Dallas made some mistakes along the way - they just had enough picks to make missing on some forgivable. These 1st 5 picks in 2 rounds this year with some good FA choices could change things considerably.
Don't kill my buzz before I even get one. True but their 3-13 that got Landry fired followed by 1-15 in JJ's Rookie NFL HC gig showed us similar bare cupboards pre-Herschel trade. Some might even argue Russell Maryland never played up to a #1 overall pick status either. Dallas made some mistakes along the way - they just had enough picks to make missing on some forgivable. These 1st 5 picks in 2 rounds this year with some good FA choices could change things considerably.
I keep this thought in my mind that Joe Shobert is kind of like Larry Izzo in quality.. maybe a few frog hairs better...
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I don't get it. So just because Aikman and Bradshaw (who go way back) made it, we should apply that to all horribly performing QBs? Kizer just simply doesn't have it, he never really did have it. He has a strong arm, but inaccurate as hell, holds onto the ball too long, and can't read defenses...not to mention he locks onto receivers as well. There's just too much going wrong with him and I'm not comfortable with the wait it out game.. When you are presented with the chance to secure a true franchise QB, especially suffering through Kizer last season, you DO IT and don't second guess it.
Name me all of the good WRs that actually can run deep routes or even can CATCH the ball consistently.......oh besides the returning project Flash Gordon. And way back, yes that's how rare franchise QBs can be plus those two mentioned had some good targets on the team.
It's not all the very young and super inexperienced QB at all. Hopefully the BROWNS can get a journeyman QB as a stopgap measure to start or at least have a good QB competition on this ZERO win team, even Kizer would be better than another rookie saviour. Maybe draft another project in the second round, OH and I and many others do NOT see any true franchise QBs in this bunch, we'll see.
........and we can quit beating up this dead horse again.
Name me all of the good WRs that actually can run deep routes or even can CATCH the ball consistently.......oh besides the returning project Flash Gordon. And way back, yes that's how rare franchise QBs can be plus those two mentioned had some good targets on the team.
It's not all the very young and super inexperienced QB at all. Hopefully the BROWNS can get a journeyman QB as a stopgap measure to start or at least have a good QB competition on this ZERO win team, even Kizer would be better than another rookie saviour. Maybe draft another project in the second round, OH and I and many others do NOT see any true franchise QBs in this bunch, we'll see.
........and we can quit beating up this dead horse again.
This reply addresses ZERO of the issues with Kizer's play which have been stated throughout this thread. This thread is about Kizer, not the WR's, not the concept of a mentor. Kizer doesn't consistently put the ball in a place where his WR's can catch it.
I'm certain Kizer can't be the solution because he, personally, is not accurate enough. That's it.
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“If you have a little patience, he can do just about anything you can dream up”
-Jon Gruden on Kizer
I hope we don’t give up on the kid
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I don't know about Kizer but I still think Hogan has something to prove.
This will be his 3rd season, he's going to learn a lot from the little bit of time he was able to get in last year. I expect him to make a huge leap this offseason.
Rooting for him.
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Kizer will get the full advantage of knowing the offensive system, the players, the protections, and a full year of big-boy experience under his belt.
We really can't say that without knowing the offensive coordinator situation.
We really can't say that without knowing the offensive coordinator situation.
I think there's some validity to your statement, but I also have a difficult time believing we're going to reinvent the wheel on offense. For example, our I have to believe our language will remain the same (mostly), our concepts will largely remain intact, the majority of our players, our practice routines, etc. Regardless of our new OC's philosophy, Kizer will still have considerable advantages over any rookie.
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“If you have a little patience, he can do just about anything you can dream up”
-Jon Gruden on Kizer
I hope we don’t give up on the kid
“If you have a little patience, he can do just about anything you can dream up”
-Jon Gruden on Kizer
I hope we don’t give up on the kid
He also praised Johnny Canadian Football.........
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“If you have a little patience, he can do just about anything you can dream up”
-Jon Gruden on Kizer
I hope we don’t give up on the kid
He also praised Johnny Canadian Football.........
He also praised Johnny Canadian Football.........
He's just playing for the farm team across the lake. He'll be brought back up to the majors when he's ready for full time NFL QB.
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He also praised Johnny Canadian Football.........
He's just playing for the farm team across the lake. He'll be brought back up to the majors when he's ready for full time NFL QB.
He's just playing for the farm team across the lake. He'll be brought back up to the majors when he's ready for full time NFL QB.
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“If you have a little patience, he can do just about anything you can dream up”
-Jon Gruden on Kizer
I hope we don’t give up on the kid
He also praised Johnny Canadian Football.........
He also praised Johnny Canadian Football.........
I’m Johnny didn’t have substance abuse issues, he would still be our starter. Kid had so much talent.
Who was the last qb to get us a win on a Sunday?
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Kizer is a good kid. That being said he doesn't have what it takes to be a starting NFL QB. He could be a backup someday (Like Weeden). Let's not forget about Cody Kessler, who was praised by Hue only to be forgotten just like Kizer will be. If we're going to end this process, we need to find someone who produces now.
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