Can Brady win if he has to do it on his own merit?
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Like three people give a $hit Gipper. You are failing to realize that pre merger NFL titles mean little and AAFC even less than that.
Michigan attempts to claim 11 national championships but everyone knows they have 1/2 of one in 1997 because leather helmet championships that predate the forward pass dont mean anything. It wasn't even the same game
Like three people give a $hit Gipper. You are failing to realize that pre merger NFL titles mean little and AAFC even less than that.
Michigan attempts to claim 11 national championships but everyone knows they have 1/2 of one in 1997 because leather helmet championships that predate the forward pass dont mean anything. It wasn't even the same game
Trust me...I realize everything. Again....people give as much a shite about the Super Bowls I retorted as they do about those titles......Those titles mean just as much as the Super Bowls won in the 70s and 80s...that is...very little.
(And the fact is the NFL game played in the 70s and 80s is actually closer to the way the game was played in the 40s and 50s than it is to today's game.).
Again...you must have Steeler genes in you with your attitude. Why it is a source of pride for you to proclaim, essentially: "I am a Steeler fan stoolie" is beyond me.
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Current browns fans can't hang their hats on aafc titles. The NFL doesn't recognize them. Not to mention my mother wasn't even born when Otto Graham retired.
Current browns fans can't hang their hats on aafc titles. The NFL doesn't recognize them. Not to mention my mother wasn't even born when Otto Graham retired.
All that is is an admission that you are young and ignorant.
My mother wasn't born when Abraham Lincoln died. Does that mean that that history doesn't count...doesn't exist...never happened?
When your Dad put his penis in your mother to cause your birth...was he thinking...."my offspring will be born into a world where nothing in the world never will be considered to have happened before his birth.
You seem to be an example of why some people should never be allowed to have children.
And current Browns fans only have 0-16 to hang their hats on.....so, does it matter when, where the Browns may have won...other than for purposes of historical accuracy. If the Browns would win next year, people 50 years ago would not hang their hats on that old moldy title from 2018 (as if)......but if the Browns win....even 50 years from now...it would still be an accurate historical fact that they won. Plain and simple.
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You're so edgy gip. You're a real old edgelord with your Trump business. And for what it's worth you're talking to possibly the only other guy on here (possibly, I'm not gonna pull a gipson and pretend I know Sheet I don't) that has made a point to spend my own vacations visiting civil war sites. So, you know, put that in your pipe and smoke it, Gippy two times.
You're so edgy gip. You're a real old edgelord with your Trump business. And for what it's worth you're talking to possibly the only other guy on here (possibly, I'm not gonna pull a gipson and pretend I know Sheet I don't) that has made a point to spend my own vacations visiting civil war sites. So, you know, put that in your pipe and smoke it, Gippy two times.
I don't spend all vacations doing that, but I have been to Chicamauga, Lookout Mountain/Chattanooga, Gettysburg, Shiloh, Vicksburg, Keenesaw Mountain, Shenandoah Valley (following some of Stonewall's campaigns). The Bloody Angle at Kennesaw was the most impressive and well worth reading first hand accounts. At Shiloh I visited where my great, great uncle was left on the field for dead with gunshot wounds to both legs and then the first ever battlefield forward surgical hospital where they saved his life without amputation.
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Current browns fans can't hang their hats on aafc titles. The NFL doesn't recognize them. Not to mention my mother wasn't even born when Otto Graham retired.
All that is is an admission that you are young and ignorant.
My mother wasn't born when Abraham Lincoln died. Does that mean that that history doesn't count...doesn't exist...never happened?
When your Dad put his penis in your mother to cause your birth...was he thinking...."my offspring will be born into a world where nothing in the world never will be considered to have happened before his birth.
You seem to be an example of why some people should never be allowed to have children.
And current Browns fans only have 0-16 to hang their hats on.....so, does it matter when, where the Browns may have won...other than for purposes of historical accuracy. If the Browns would win next year, people 50 years ago would not hang their hats on that old moldy title from 2018 (as if)......but if the Browns win....even 50 years from now...it would still be an accurate historical fact that they won. Plain and simple.
All that is is an admission that you are young and ignorant.
My mother wasn't born when Abraham Lincoln died. Does that mean that that history doesn't count...doesn't exist...never happened?
When your Dad put his penis in your mother to cause your birth...was he thinking...."my offspring will be born into a world where nothing in the world never will be considered to have happened before his birth.
You seem to be an example of why some people should never be allowed to have children.
And current Browns fans only have 0-16 to hang their hats on.....so, does it matter when, where the Browns may have won...other than for purposes of historical accuracy. If the Browns would win next year, people 50 years ago would not hang their hats on that old moldy title from 2018 (as if)......but if the Browns win....even 50 years from now...it would still be an accurate historical fact that they won. Plain and simple.
You're equating Abraham Lincoln...and the browns championships in another league that doesn't exist and isnt recognized by the league we do play in.
Cool. Got it. You succeeded, not in convincing me you're right but making me not give a $hit at all about the browns' ancient championships NFL or AAFC. I suppose in the ambulance chaser world that's a win.
This shit ain't nothing to me, man. -
All that is is an admission that you are young and ignorant.
My mother wasn't born when Abraham Lincoln died. Does that mean that that history doesn't count...doesn't exist...never happened?
When your Dad put his penis in your mother to cause your birth...was he thinking...."my offspring will be born into a world where nothing in the world never will be considered to have happened before his birth.
You seem to be an example of why some people should never be allowed to have children.
And current Browns fans only have 0-16 to hang their hats on.....so, does it matter when, where the Browns may have won...other than for purposes of historical accuracy. If the Browns would win next year, people 50 years ago would not hang their hats on that old moldy title from 2018 (as if)......but if the Browns win....even 50 years from now...it would still be an accurate historical fact that they won. Plain and simple.
You're equating Abraham Lincoln...and the browns championships in another league that doesn't exist and isnt recognized by the league we do play in.
Cool. Got it. You succeeded, not in convincing me you're right but making me not give a $hit at all about the browns' ancient championships NFL or AAFC. I suppose in the ambulance chaser world that's a win.
You're equating Abraham Lincoln...and the browns championships in another league that doesn't exist and isnt recognized by the league we do play in.
Cool. Got it. You succeeded, not in convincing me you're right but making me not give a $hit at all about the browns' ancient championships NFL or AAFC. I suppose in the ambulance chaser world that's a win.
I am equating accurate history with accurate history. If you don't like your history accurate...I don't know....go join the Society for the Perpetuation of the Confederacy....or the Perpetuation of the Third Reich.
And FYI....no one cares what you do or do not give a $hit about. Your caring or not won't change history.
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For all you ladies crying about the patriots beating the Jaguars and how terribly unfair it all was...
Knocking out one of the team's best players is positively Steeler like.
WSS
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For all you ladies crying about the patriots beating the Jaguars and how terribly unfair it all was...
Knocking out one of the team's best players is positively Steeler like.
WSS
For all you ladies crying about the patriots beating the Jaguars and how terribly unfair it all was...
Knocking out one of the team's best players is positively Steeler like.
WSS
Go eaglesGo eagles
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For all you ladies crying about the patriots beating the Jaguars and how terribly unfair it all was...
Knocking out one of the team's best players is positively Steeler like.
WSS
Go eaglesGo eagles
Go eaglesGo eagles
GO EAGLES! .......well +4 1/2 and over 48, just sayin'.
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For all you ladies crying about the patriots beating the Jaguars and how terribly unfair it all was...
Knocking out one of the team's best players is positively Steeler like.
WSS
Go eaglesGo eagles
Go eaglesGo eagles
I only kind of semi hate the Eagles. The one mitigating factor is for all the people who were whining that we didn't take Carson Wentz now see that had good team could be successful with a bum at quarterback.
But again any opportunity for the Patriots to leave the Squealers Legacy in the dirt is good with me.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Go eaglesGo eagles
I only kind of semi hate the Eagles. The one mitigating factor is for all the people who were whining that we didn't take Carson Wentz now see that had good team could be successful with a bum at quarterback.
But again any opportunity for the Patriots to leave the Squealers Legacy in the dirt is good with me.
WSS
I only kind of semi hate the Eagles. The one mitigating factor is for all the people who were whining that we didn't take Carson Wentz now see that had good team could be successful with a bum at quarterback.
But again any opportunity for the Patriots to leave the Squealers Legacy in the dirt is good with me.
WSS
True, and the Patriots have already widened the SB appearances up to 10 vs 8, but the total rings would be nice......even though I prefer the Eagles.
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Go eaglesGo eagles
I only kind of semi hate the Eagles. The one mitigating factor is for all the people who were whining that we didn't take Carson Wentz now see that had good team could be successful with a bum at quarterback.
But again any opportunity for the Patriots to leave the Squealers Legacy in the dirt is good with me.
WSS
I only kind of semi hate the Eagles. The one mitigating factor is for all the people who were whining that we didn't take Carson Wentz now see that had good team could be successful with a bum at quarterback.
But again any opportunity for the Patriots to leave the Squealers Legacy in the dirt is good with me.
WSS
You remember my old roomie from Law School...Michael Coren? He was from Philly...and an Eagles fan. He would always make Sunday Brunch before the football games, lox and bagels and eggs and we drank screwdrivers...and we would have about a dozen people over to the apartment on Shaker Square. We would obviously watch the Browns...but the second team we would watch if it was on was the Eagles. So I got to kind of liking the Eagles...since they were in the other conference and the Browns rarely played them. My other roomie, Eichenbaum...remember him? He too was from eastern PA. Pottsville I believe. But he was a Steeler fan because he had gone to undergrad at Pitt in the 70s....and living there in Pittsburgh during their glory years, he FRAKed his way into being a fan of the Squibs. So, you had a Browns fan, me, and an Eagles fan....Coren....who both hated Pissburgh....who ganged up on him against the Squibs with mutual hatred...but, unfortunately those foookwads did win at least one SB while we roomed together.
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All that is is an admission that you are young and ignorant.
My mother wasn't born when Abraham Lincoln died. Does that mean that that history doesn't count...doesn't exist...never happened?
When your Dad put his penis in your mother to cause your birth...was he thinking...."my offspring will be born into a world where nothing in the world never will be considered to have happened before his birth.
You seem to be an example of why some people should never be allowed to have children.
And current Browns fans only have 0-16 to hang their hats on.....so, does it matter when, where the Browns may have won...other than for purposes of historical accuracy. If the Browns would win next year, people 50 years ago would not hang their hats on that old moldy title from 2018 (as if)......but if the Browns win....even 50 years from now...it would still be an accurate historical fact that they won. Plain and simple.
You're equating Abraham Lincoln...and the browns championships in another league that doesn't exist and isnt recognized by the league we do play in.
Cool. Got it. You succeeded, not in convincing me you're right but making me not give a $hit at all about the browns' ancient championships NFL or AAFC. I suppose in the ambulance chaser world that's a win.
You're equating Abraham Lincoln...and the browns championships in another league that doesn't exist and isnt recognized by the league we do play in.
Cool. Got it. You succeeded, not in convincing me you're right but making me not give a $hit at all about the browns' ancient championships NFL or AAFC. I suppose in the ambulance chaser world that's a win.
The NFL recognizes the Championships of the AFL (1960-69), AAFC (1946-49) and APFA (1920-21).
These are Leagues that were considered as good as the NFL, and were merged into the NFL.
Packers, Cardinals, Giants, Bears etc all came out of the APFA (Which became the NFL), Browns and and 49ers came out of the AAFC, most of the AFC came out of the AFL. Continuous franchises, same coaches, same players etc.
Paul Brown, Otto Graham and Marion Motley etc. Happened. They were the best, and they proved it when they merged onto the NFL and won that too. It doesn't matter when your Mom was born, it happened. Just like all the other history (WWII, slavery, hoop skirts) it happened, and counts, whether you recognize it or not.
The Browns have 8 Championships. The Patriots have 5. They get to count the AFL. The Steelers have 6. They get to count the "leather helmet years" 1933-46 before the Browns existed.
The Packers have 13, the Bears have 9, and the Giants, like the Browns have 8. The Patriots are tied with the Cowboys, 49ers and Redskins at 5.
It just a fact. If your friend only counts Super Bowls, or if they laugh at you at your local hangout because you go back before Super Bowls, or you don't trust anything that happned before your Mom was born, then by all means just count Super Bowls.
But facts are still facts.
Zombo
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/
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Both of them fine young men but that has no bearing on whether or not I root for the Eagles. I've enjoyed every visit I've ever made to Philadelphia and had a great time at the 2nd Street Brewhouse where I assume they are all Eagles fans. I've also enjoyed my trips to Pittsburgh and know many fine people from there. I've had a good time in Dallas too. None of that has any bearing on who I root for in the Super Bowl.
I also like the Buffalo Bills just because I spent an evening at Frank & Teresa's Anchor Bar.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
You're equating Abraham Lincoln...and the browns championships in another league that doesn't exist and isnt recognized by the league we do play in.
Cool. Got it. You succeeded, not in convincing me you're right but making me not give a $hit at all about the browns' ancient championships NFL or AAFC. I suppose in the ambulance chaser world that's a win.
The NFL recognizes the Championships of the AFL (1960-69), AAFC (1946-49) and APFA (1920-21).
These are Leagues that were considered as good as the NFL, and were merged into the NFL.
Packers, Cardinals, Giants, Bears etc all came out of the APFA (Which became the NFL), Browns and and 49ers came out of the AAFC, most of the AFC came out of the AFL. Continuous franchises, same coaches, same players etc.
Paul Brown, Otto Graham and Marion Motley etc. Happened. They were the best, and they proved it when they merged onto the NFL and won that too. It doesn't matter when your Mom was born, it happened. Just like all the other history (WWII, slavery, hoop skirts) it happened, and counts, whether you recognize it or not.
The Browns have 8 Championships. The Patriots have 5. They get to count the AFL. The Steelers have 6. They get to count the "leather helmet years" 1933-46 before the Browns existed.
The Packers have 13, the Bears have 9, and the Giants, like the Browns have 8. The Patriots are tied with the Cowboys, 49ers and Redskins at 5.
It just a fact. If your friend only counts Super Bowls, or if they laugh at you at your local hangout because you go back before Super Bowls, or you don't trust anything that happned before your Mom was born, then by all means just count Super Bowls.
But facts are still facts.
Zombo
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/
Zombo said:
The NFL recognizes the Championships of the AFL (1960-69), AAFC (1946-49) and APFA (1920-21).
These are Leagues that were considered as good as the NFL, and were merged into the NFL.
Packers, Cardinals, Giants, Bears etc all came out of the APFA (Which became the NFL), Browns and and 49ers came out of the AAFC, most of the AFC came out of the AFL. Continuous franchises, same coaches, same players etc.
Paul Brown, Otto Graham and Marion Motley etc. Happened. They were the best, and they proved it when they merged onto the NFL and won that too. It doesn't matter when your Mom was born, it happened. Just like all the other history (WWII, slavery, hoop skirts) it happened, and counts, whether you recognize it or not.
The Browns have 8 Championships. The Patriots have 5. They get to count the AFL. The Steelers have 6. They get to count the "leather helmet years" 1933-46 before the Browns existed.
The Packers have 13, the Bears have 9, and the Giants, like the Browns have 8. The Patriots are tied with the Cowboys, 49ers and Redskins at 5.
It just a fact. If your friend only counts Super Bowls, or if they laugh at you at your local hangout because you go back before Super Bowls, or you don't trust anything that happned before your Mom was born, then by all means just count Super Bowls.
But facts are still facts.
Zombo
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/
Facts are facts. And those are the facts.
Otto Graham retired before his mom was born? Well...he didn't retire before I was born...so I guess since I am smarter and better looking...it is then my lifetime that counts, no? the answer is NO.
By this type of moronic thinking then.....nothing counts really before there was an expansion of playoffs...which is the biggest result of the AFL/NFL merger. So...in that regard then....nothing in baseball counts before they expanded the playoffs of baseball about the time they expanded the playoffs of football. Nothing Mantle, Mays, Dimaggio, Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Feller, Wagner etc. did counts
Oh...and what about pre NBA/ABA merger? Nothing Bill Russell, George Mikan, Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain etc. did counts.
But...facts are facts.
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Both of them fine young men but that has no bearing on whether or not I root for the Eagles. I've enjoyed every visit I've ever made to Philadelphia and had a great time at the 2nd Street Brewhouse where I assume they are all Eagles fans. I've also enjoyed my trips to Pittsburgh and know many fine people from there. I've had a good time in Dallas too. None of that has any bearing on who I root for in the Super Bowl.
I also like the Buffalo Bills just because I spent an evening at Frank & Teresa's Anchor Bar.
WSS
Both of them fine young men but that has no bearing on whether or not I root for the Eagles. I've enjoyed every visit I've ever made to Philadelphia and had a great time at the 2nd Street Brewhouse where I assume they are all Eagles fans. I've also enjoyed my trips to Pittsburgh and know many fine people from there. I've had a good time in Dallas too. None of that has any bearing on who I root for in the Super Bowl.
I also like the Buffalo Bills just because I spent an evening at Frank & Teresa's Anchor Bar.
WSS
Not sure what that has to do with anything. My niece and nephew both live in the Baltimore area at this time.....that does not make me hate the Ratbirds any less. (one of them moving to Florida later this year). My daughter lives in San Antonio....I ain't becoming no Spurs fan.
I only kinda like the Bills because they have not won in as long as the Browns have....but Buffalo is not appreciably any different than Pittsburgh...yes, both actually fun towns to visit. But their football fans don't come off as arrogant and stupid....though...it could perhaps seem that way if: A. they were in our division...as they probably should be...and B. if they had won 4 SBs in a row rather than losing them all....maybe their fans would prove as equally moronic as Steeler fans (yet, I don't think so).
If I liked a team because I spent a great time at some restaurant I would probably like, lets see...some of the Following:
New Orleans Saints...because I ate at several good places there: Commander's Palace, Acme Oyster House.
Chicago Bears.....Gibson's Steakhouse. and The Italian Village.
The Ruidoso Ranchhands..(yes, I just made that up....as I went to the Texas Club there for the best steak I ever had...yep...better than Diamond Grill)
The Steven's Point Hot Fish (the Hot Fish Shop...best fish I have had....no longer there).
The Lake Tahoe Lakesiders (Lakeside Inn and Casino in Stateline NV)
I am sure I could come up with a few others.
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What does it have to do with anything? Nothing. Root for the fuking Eagles if you want to I don't care.
WSS
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What does it have to do with anything? Nothing. Root for the fuking Eagles if you want to I don't care.
WSS
What does it have to do with anything? Nothing. Root for the fuking Eagles if you want to I don't care.
WSS
What I asked was: why would going to a good restaurant in a city be a cause to root for that cities sports team? And I will root for the Fuycking Eagles, Dude.
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You're equating Abraham Lincoln...and the browns championships in another league that doesn't exist and isnt recognized by the league we do play in.
Cool. Got it. You succeeded, not in convincing me you're right but making me not give a $hit at all about the browns' ancient championships NFL or AAFC. I suppose in the ambulance chaser world that's a win.
The NFL recognizes the Championships of the AFL (1960-69), AAFC (1946-49) and APFA (1920-21).
These are Leagues that were considered as good as the NFL, and were merged into the NFL.
Packers, Cardinals, Giants, Bears etc all came out of the APFA (Which became the NFL), Browns and and 49ers came out of the AAFC, most of the AFC came out of the AFL. Continuous franchises, same coaches, same players etc.
Paul Brown, Otto Graham and Marion Motley etc. Happened. They were the best, and they proved it when they merged onto the NFL and won that too. It doesn't matter when your Mom was born, it happened. Just like all the other history (WWII, slavery, hoop skirts) it happened, and counts, whether you recognize it or not.
The Browns have 8 Championships. The Patriots have 5. They get to count the AFL. The Steelers have 6. They get to count the "leather helmet years" 1933-46 before the Browns existed.
The Packers have 13, the Bears have 9, and the Giants, like the Browns have 8. The Patriots are tied with the Cowboys, 49ers and Redskins at 5.
It just a fact. If your friend only counts Super Bowls, or if they laugh at you at your local hangout because you go back before Super Bowls, or you don't trust anything that happned before your Mom was born, then by all means just count Super Bowls.
But facts are still facts.
Zombo
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/
Zombo said:
The NFL recognizes the Championships of the AFL (1960-69), AAFC (1946-49) and APFA (1920-21).
These are Leagues that were considered as good as the NFL, and were merged into the NFL.
Packers, Cardinals, Giants, Bears etc all came out of the APFA (Which became the NFL), Browns and and 49ers came out of the AAFC, most of the AFC came out of the AFL. Continuous franchises, same coaches, same players etc.
Paul Brown, Otto Graham and Marion Motley etc. Happened. They were the best, and they proved it when they merged onto the NFL and won that too. It doesn't matter when your Mom was born, it happened. Just like all the other history (WWII, slavery, hoop skirts) it happened, and counts, whether you recognize it or not.
The Browns have 8 Championships. The Patriots have 5. They get to count the AFL. The Steelers have 6. They get to count the "leather helmet years" 1933-46 before the Browns existed.
The Packers have 13, the Bears have 9, and the Giants, like the Browns have 8. The Patriots are tied with the Cowboys, 49ers and Redskins at 5.
It just a fact. If your friend only counts Super Bowls, or if they laugh at you at your local hangout because you go back before Super Bowls, or you don't trust anything that happned before your Mom was born, then by all means just count Super Bowls.
But facts are still facts.
Zombo
Pro football focus might recognize it but the NFL doesn't. I already posted the NFL record book straight from the horse's mouth. Cleveland Browns : 4 championships.
The AAFC doesn't count. It's like they won the XFL or Arena league championship. Great. Good for them. They were even good enough to win the NFL championship in their first NFL year. That's a great accomplishment. But the AAFC does not count outside of the AAFC which has been folded for...68 years now.
This shit ain't nothing to me, man. -
Zombo said:
The NFL recognizes the Championships of the AFL (1960-69), AAFC (1946-49) and APFA (1920-21).
These are Leagues that were considered as good as the NFL, and were merged into the NFL.
Packers, Cardinals, Giants, Bears etc all came out of the APFA (Which became the NFL), Browns and and 49ers came out of the AAFC, most of the AFC came out of the AFL. Continuous franchises, same coaches, same players etc.
Paul Brown, Otto Graham and Marion Motley etc. Happened. They were the best, and they proved it when they merged onto the NFL and won that too. It doesn't matter when your Mom was born, it happened. Just like all the other history (WWII, slavery, hoop skirts) it happened, and counts, whether you recognize it or not.
The Browns have 8 Championships. The Patriots have 5. They get to count the AFL. The Steelers have 6. They get to count the "leather helmet years" 1933-46 before the Browns existed.
The Packers have 13, the Bears have 9, and the Giants, like the Browns have 8. The Patriots are tied with the Cowboys, 49ers and Redskins at 5.
It just a fact. If your friend only counts Super Bowls, or if they laugh at you at your local hangout because you go back before Super Bowls, or you don't trust anything that happned before your Mom was born, then by all means just count Super Bowls.
But facts are still facts.
Zombo
Pro football focus might recognize it but the NFL doesn't. I already posted the NFL record book straight from the horse's mouth. Cleveland Browns : 4 championships.
The AAFC doesn't count. It's like they won the XFL or Arena league championship. Great. Good for them. They were even good enough to win the NFL championship in their first NFL year. That's a great accomplishment. But the AAFC does not count outside of the AAFC which has been folded for...68 years now.
Pro football focus might recognize it but the NFL doesn't. I already posted the NFL record book straight from the horse's mouth. Cleveland Browns : 4 championships.
The AAFC doesn't count. It's like they won the XFL or Arena league championship. Great. Good for them. They were even good enough to win the NFL championship in their first NFL year. That's a great accomplishment. But the AAFC does not count outside of the AAFC which has been folded for...68 years now.
Pro Football Hall of Fame recognizes AAFC Championships. Does not recognize XFL.
AAFC and AFL are considered major leagues.
Z
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What does it have to do with anything? Nothing. Root for the fuking Eagles if you want to I don't care.
WSS
What I asked was: why would going to a good restaurant in a city be a cause to root for that cities sports team? And I will root for the Fuycking Eagles, Dude.
What I asked was: why would going to a good restaurant in a city be a cause to root for that cities sports team? And I will root for the Fuycking Eagles, Dude.
It's as good a reason as any for rooting for a team that isn't your home team.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons
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