Saquon Barkley Combine Bound

Gunz41

@boo-fagley said:

Because the Giants and Colts dont need a QB right now unless he is in later rounds. If NY or INDY went QB, they then have to pay the guy top 10 money while creating a QB controversy that nobody wants.

Barkley # 1, 2nd Giants ,3rd Colts, Browns QB at # 4. Leaving Barkley exposed is too risky because all you hear is that all Manning and Luck need is talent around them to succeed.

But you aren't factoring in a lot of things my man. One is trades. Both teams could easily trade the picks. And 2nd- especially NY they have an old QB and need to start thinking of the future. No organization thinks about the upcoming year when they draft, but the future. So yes, while Eli will be starter next year, he isn't the future there. And this past season was an abboration for the Giants. They won't be this high again to draft a top QB.

It's why the Giants got Eli to begin with. They only had a HOF QB playing, but they got Eli for the future. It's why Patriots had Jimmy G. And if Bill had his way, he would still be there.

I'm certainly not one that thinks Luck is great, but when healthy he has produced pretty good. But that team has A LOT of holes. So trading gives them more assets.

And not to mention that it is a lot easier to find a lot of production from later picks at RB as opposed to QB. And RB dont last nearly as long as QB, and that is taking your boy Brady out. A lot of the top QB's are in 30s and RB are done being elite by 30.

In conclusion, it's not as black and white as Giants and Colts dont "need" a quaterback

Gunz41

@roycerolls said:

Oops, I forgot to say Starting RBs as the source I was using only listed the starters. But the fact that first rounder Addai was outperformed by undrafted Rhodes still works for the argument. Faulk doesn’t count because I said 15 years. Bettis wasn’t the starter and signifies the changing of the guard. By the time he won a Super Bowl he was just a fat butt figure head who fell down into the end zone sometimes. Averaged about 40 yds/game in the playoffs in 2005. Did pretty well pulling off the type 2 shuffle for a few TDs though. Reggie Bush is a great example of when taking a first round QB goes wrong....At any rate, how many undrafted QBs have won a super bowl? Warner is the only one I can think of.

Edit: or maybe a better question is how many times does a first round QB back up an undrafted QB?

It's easy to use one stat to prove a point, but you have to use multiple things to get a food view. Just use last 19 years, using ONE stat would certainly tell you that your best odds is with a 6th round QB.

See how that looks? So saying Bush is a good example, well he did win a Super Bowl, and there are MANY examples of how taking a QB in the 1st is wrong.

There is no sure first pick, position, etc.

And the other thing that just doesn't work is saying Addai was outperformed so it works with your argument. There has been many a time a Super Bowl winning QB was outperformed by his counterpart. That had nothing to do with where he was drafted, but how he performed a certain day some, and even more because it's a TEAM game

gumby73

@boo-fagley said:

Crazy that Gordon is only a ERFA.

Seems like hes been around forever.

Caught my eye too.Seems wrong from read. Josh was subliminal draft? not sure where round 2 pick fits? Work. Check later

Mark O

@sd_tom said:

How can any RB list for this draft not have Rashaad Penny on it? Seriously.

Because you and I are the only 2 who have actually seen him play.

boo fagley

@gunz41 said:

But you aren't factoring in a lot of things my man. One is trades. Both teams could easily trade the picks. And 2nd- especially NY they have an old QB and need to start thinking of the future. No organization thinks about the upcoming year when they draft, but the future. So yes, while Eli will be starter next year, he isn't the future there. And this past season was an abboration for the Giants. They won't be this high again to draft a top QB.

It's why the Giants got Eli to begin with. They only had a HOF QB playing, but they got Eli for the future. It's why Patriots had Jimmy G. And if Bill had his way, he would still be there.

I'm certainly not one that thinks Luck is great, but when healthy he has produced pretty good. But that team has A LOT of holes. So trading gives them more assets.

And not to mention that it is a lot easier to find a lot of production from later picks at RB as opposed to QB. And RB dont last nearly as long as QB, and that is taking your boy Brady out. A lot of the top QB's are in 30s and RB are done being elite by 30.

In conclusion, it's not as black and white as Giants and Colts dont "need" a quaterback

All solid points and thank you for the civil explanation.

Regarding the Giants. They were terrible running the ball last season http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff NY is a win now franchise and youre right Eli is getting up in years. He just turned 37. Not many years are left. On draft day, Barkley is there at 2 who can help you today or a QB who is not going to play unless Eli goes down. It is very rare that NY is in this position drafting this high. But why would they trade down and how far down?

I think if Barkley is there at 2 the Giants take him and if he is gone they trade down with Denver, or NYJ who need a QB.

Im not a Luck fan either, but a common excuse why he does not succeed is the talent around him.

Gunz41

@boo-fagley said:

All solid points and thank you for the civil explanation.

Regarding the Giants. They were terrible running the ball last season http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff NY is a win now franchise and youre right Eli is getting up in years. He just turned 37. Not many years are left. On draft day, Barkley is there at 2 who can help you today or a QB who is not going to play unless Eli goes down. It is very rare that NY is in this position drafting this high. But why would they trade down and how far down?

I think if Barkley is there at 2 the Giants take him and if he is gone they trade down with Denver, or NYJ who need a QB.

Im not a Luck fan either, but a common excuse why he does not succeed is the talent around him.

NY won't trade down, they will take the heir apparent to Eli. They know just like everyone that they can get a good RB later. Maybe a Sony Michel in 2nd

Indy if given the opportunity, will trade to get extra picks to make them better. If I were Indy, the only 2 things I consider are OL to protect Luck, and defense

Gunz41

@gumby73 said:

Caught my eye too.Seems wrong from read. Josh was subliminal draft? not sure where round 2 pick fits? Work. Check later

It's because of the time he missed. Even this past season doesn't count as a year by standards

SD_Tom

@mark-o said:

Because you and I are the only 2 who have actually seen him play.

LOL Apparently so. But after the Sr Bowl, and the bowl game against Army, how could anyone not be a fan?

They guy had over 2200 yds. I don't care what conference or division it's in. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

RoyceRolls

@gunz41 said:

It's easy to use one stat to prove a point, but you have to use multiple things to get a food view. Just use last 19 years, using ONE stat would certainly tell you that your best odds is with a 6th round QB.

See how that looks? So saying Bush is a good example, well he did win a Super Bowl, and there are MANY examples of how taking a QB in the 1st is wrong.

There is no sure first pick, position, etc.

And the other thing that just doesn't work is saying Addai was outperformed so it works with your argument. There has been many a time a Super Bowl winning QB was outperformed by his counterpart. That had nothing to do with where he was drafted, but how he performed a certain day some, and even more because it's a TEAM game

Well, the stats are the stats. Undrafted Rhodes had 113 yards and a TD while Addai had 77 yards and no TDs. They had fairly similar careers as well. Saying that Reggie Bush and his 5 yards won a Super Bowl is like saying Kenny Britt won an AFC title. I understand the points your making about my confirmation bias, but you’re doing the same thing. The main point is that there are far more examples of teams leaning on undrafted RB production than 1st round RB production, and it isn’t really close.

the ho-hum 1st round production in contrast with the objectively superior production of the undrafted guys only helps my argument.

Mark O

@sd_tom said:

LOL Apparently so. But after the Sr Bowl, and the bowl game against Army, how could anyone not be a fan?

They guy had over 2200 yds. I don't care what conference or division it's in. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

I agree and while his overall stats are ridiculously impressive even against the Mountain West (kinda like Josh Allen and his 5,000 yards and 75% completion percentage....er...wait..never mind), I prefer to point out Rashaad Pennys stats against Stanford and Arizona State this year:

9/9	@Arizona State	W 30-20	18	216	12.0	95	1	4	38	9.5	33	1
9/16	Stanford	W 20-17	32	175	5.5	36	1	5	31	6.2	13	0

Now that's a dude who knows how to bring is game up against a higher level of competition. That's 50 carries for 391 yards against Pac 12 schools for a guy out of little San Diego State and the Mountain West conference. Couple of TD's and a receiving TD as well and oh by the way.......he and his team won both games against the bigger schools and the bigger conferences.

I think the kid will be a stud...not on the Marshall Faulk level from SDSU but certainly a really really really good pro for a lot of years.

Dutch Oven

I've said it multiple times - but man this year's RB class is so deep.

Investing a Top 5 pick on a RB is an incredibly questionable move generally, but in this draft it's reckless.

PoeticG

It's not about the position the player plays or the round they were drafted in. It's about the player.

Saquon Barkley is as clean a prospect as you can find, no red flags at all. No bullring nose piercing, no gold grill, he's not an alcoholic, he doesn't do drugs or juice up.

He's super fast, has amazing agility, explosive acceleration, he has great vison, uncanny balance, soft hands and players and coaches love the kid.

It's about the player.

I'm not against getting Penny as well. He's worth a later pick.

Saquon Barkley and Raashad Penny would be a hell of running back room.

Track meet.

This draft needs to be about offense. All offense. Enough with the defense. Our young defense needs time to gel together and develop, that's all. The offense needs an overhaul, it's way past due.

Getting Gordon back for a whole year is a tremendous start. Adding a player like Barkley and maybe somebody like James Washington would make life WAAAAAY easier on whomever the Browns take at 4.

Gunz41

@roycerolls said:

Well, the stats are the stats. Undrafted Rhodes had 113 yards and a TD while Addai had 77 yards and no TDs. They had fairly similar careers as well. Saying that Reggie Bush and his 5 yards won a Super Bowl is like saying Kenny Britt won an AFC title. I understand the points your making about my confirmation bias, but you’re doing the same thing. The main point is that there are far more examples of teams leaning on undrafted RB production than 1st round RB production, and it isn’t really close.

the ho-hum 1st round production in contrast with the objectively superior production of the undrafted guys only helps my argument.

You are set in your way of thinking. Thing is, I COMPLETELY agree about QB bring way more important.

But it's like anything else, you can't have it both ways. If a 1st round RB is talked about like that, then so can another position. If a winning RB is outperformed and still won, same can be said about another position.

And I meant nothing about how Reggie Bush performed that day. But you said no 1st round back had won SB, he most certainly did win. Maybe his play wasn't a factor, but he still got that ring. Just as with Addai. I'll bet if you asked either of them if they would rather have had a ring or outperformed their counterpart, they would choose the ring.

Tom Brady just set records in the SB and he didn't win. Maybe it's more about a team and not any position

Gunz41

@poeticg said:

It's not about the position the player plays or the round they were drafted in. It's about the player.

Saquon Barkley is as clean a prospect as you can find, no red flags at all. No bullring nose piercing, no gold grill, he's not an alcoholic, he doesn't do drugs or juice up.

He's super fast, has amazing agility, explosive acceleration, he has great vison, uncanny balance, soft hands and players and coaches love the kid.

It's about the player.

I'm not against getting Penny as well. He's worth a later pick.

Saquon Barkley and Raashad Penny would be a hell of running back room.

Track meet.

This draft needs to be about offense. All offense. Enough with the defense. Our young defense needs time to gel together and develop, that's all. The offense needs an overhaul, it's way past due.

Getting Gordon back for a whole year is a tremendous start. Adding a player like Barkley and maybe somebody like James Washington would make life WAAAAAY easier on whomever the Browns take at 4.

2 things again Po. You don't know that he doesn't do drugs to say as clean as prospect. You know he hasn't tested positive. Like I said before, nobody knew Tiger was doing what he was doing until he was caught. I'm not saying he isn't clean, but you are making a lot of statements that aren't set in stone.

Now on to the point others have been trying to point out to you. Maybe I can ask it a better way.

I dont know how you have the QB ranked. I know you have said you liked Mayfield. So say the top 4 QB are ranked as follows. 1. Mayfield 2. Darnold 3. Rosen 4. Allen. And say you have Baker ranked 92, Darnold 88 Rosen 82 Allen 78.

You can have either one of these scenarios.

1. Mayfield 2. Darnold 3. Chubb 4. Barkley

OR

1. Barkley 2. Mayfield 3. Darnold (DEN) 4. Rosen

And remember that for the question Rosen is ranked 82. Some have him way high, but was just showing you.

mjp28

@dutch-oven said:

I've said it multiple times - but man this year's RB class is so deep.

Investing a Top 5 pick on a RB is an incredibly questionable move generally, but in this draft it's reckless.

And the BROWNS are in a pickers' paradise loaded with draft picks.

RoyceRolls

@gunz41 said:

And I meant nothing about how Reggie Bush performed that day. But you said no 1st round back had won SB, he most certainly did win. Maybe his play wasn't a factor, but he still got that ring. Just as with Addai. I'll bet if you asked either of them if they would rather have had a ring or outperformed their counterpart, they would choose the ring.

I misspoke in my first post. I said any rb when I meant starting RB. While I’ll admit that starting doesn’t mean much for the RB position, it’s still interesting that more than one super bowl winning team in the past ten years have expected more of an undrafted RB than their first round guy.

For the most part of you don’t have a good QB and a good defense, your odds of winning a championship go waaayyy down. And while any position will field low round/undrafted guys who are successful, the odds of it happening seem much better with running backs.

Gunz41

@roycerolls said:

I misspoke in my first post. I said any rb when I meant starting RB. While I’ll admit that starting doesn’t mean much for the RB position, it’s still interesting that more than one super bowl winning team in the past ten years have expected more of an undrafted RB than their first round guy.

For the most part of you don’t have a good QB and a good defense, your odds of winning a championship go waaayyy down. And while any position will field low round/undrafted guys who are successful, the odds of it happening seem much better with running backs.

I agree on the running back. But the issue with any position, round, etc is getting the right guy.

I'm not saying these are for sure the top 5 QB's of all time, but way up there. Brady, Montana, Manning, Favre, and Rodgers. 2 of 5 1st rounders and Rodgers was passed over. It's about the player not the round

RoyceRolls

I agree, getting the pick right is most important, but it’s all about odds. The way I see it, your odds are a lot better spending premium picks on QB. The RB position can be handled by throwing volume at the position. Keep cycling through low round/undrafted guys at the position until something sticks. The odds of that strategy working for the QB position seems a lot less likely.

PoeticG

@gunz41 said:

2 things again Po. You don't know that he doesn't do drugs to say as clean as prospect. You know he hasn't tested positive. Like I said before, nobody knew Tiger was doing what he was doing until he was caught. I'm not saying he isn't clean, but you are making a lot of statements that aren't set in stone.

Now on to the point others have been trying to point out to you. Maybe I can ask it a better way.

I dont know how you have the QB ranked. I know you have said you liked Mayfield. So say the top 4 QB are ranked as follows. 1. Mayfield 2. Darnold 3. Rosen 4. Allen. And say you have Baker ranked 92, Darnold 88 Rosen 82 Allen 78.

You can have either one of these scenarios.

1. Mayfield 2. Darnold 3. Chubb 4. Barkley

OR

1. Barkley 2. Mayfield 3. Darnold (DEN) 4. Rosen

And remember that for the question Rosen is ranked 82. Some have him way high, but was just showing you.

I hear you, but from what I know- from Barkley's humble beginnings, to seeing his father struggle with drugs and overcoming all of that. He's an inspiration to us all, it's not the hand you are dealt in life, it's how you play it.

From his coaches, both past and present, they all rave about his character, his teammates and guidance counselors revere him. He says and DOES all the right things.

Have you seen where he gave away his first gold medal? People like this only come around every once in a while. Of course any athlete can carry a football and run north and south. But what I see from Barkley is a master of his craft, an absolute master. He's playing the game within the game. What Barkley does is an art. There are a lot of sketch artists in the NFL, Saquon is akin to Michelangelo.

With OUR OWN troubled past, a player like Barkley is going to make a huge difference. He is a player that everyone knows and everybody loves. We are going to be watched very closely. The Browns will be on the big stage- teams that are on the big stage typically get those iffy calls that we NEVER get.

When Barkley's Browns take on the Steelers, the whole county is going to want to watch. Good Saquon vs. the dirty Bells, Rices and Mixons of the AFCN. Barkley is Cleveland's Godzilla. It's time we unleash the beast. I wished it was going to be Hillis. Then was let down by Richardson. Barkley is the truth- Zeke.

As Marcus Allen says in his interview above. Looking back over his career, he's asked to name one player, ONE player that brought out the best in him...

PoeticG

Get to know Barkley a little better from the eyes of his QB. Take a good listen to why you want Saquon #1.