Barkley at #1?
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As fans we only get a partial view of the big picture. This FO gets to meet with these QB Prospects face to face and put them through the paces. They will have a #1 QB by the time the dust settles, and they cannot take the chance that someone else will draft him.
If they draft scared and let other teams determine who their QB will be so they can use #1 overall on one of the easiest positions to fill, it will be the same old Sheet(unless it works).
Edit: Barkley will probably be there at 4, and if he isn’t, it’s not like you missed out on your QB, so it’s no biggie.
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passing on Barkley would be a monumental screw-up.
Take him! Im sure Darnold or Rosen will be there at 4, and if not, take Micah Fitzpatrick.
Or will he be the next Trent Richardson 3rd pick from that great football factory Alabama? Sure is a tough call to make, #1 pick for a RB.
BUT due to the BROWNS historical season they do have a #1 and 4 to play around with this year, nice do-over situation. "I'll take one of each please".
Or will he be the next Trent Richardson 3rd pick from that great football factory Alabama? Sure is a tough call to make, #1 pick for a RB.
BUT due to the BROWNS historical season they do have a #1 and 4 to play around with this year, nice do-over situation. "I'll take one of each please".
Penn State hasn't been a football factory since Kerry Collins QBed them to an undefeated season way back in the early 90s.
Right now, what scoring threat do we have to recruit a FA QB to consider coming here? Telling them we plan to take Barkley and reminding them Emmitt Smith was Aikman's game changer like Marshall Faulk was Warner's game changer like Zeke Elliott was a big reason Dak Prescott earned Rookie of the Year while Leonard Fournette was the first time a 3rd overall QB like Bortles got to an AFC Championship. In places that don't have a Tom Brady, these RBs can matter a lot. Riggins for Theisman, Byner for Rypien, and Elway didn't WIN Superbowls until he had Terrell Davis while a 2000 yard RB helped drag Trent Dilfer to a Superbowl.
We haven't had a RB that can score from anywhere on the field via pass or run since my avatar Greg Pruitt. I kind of miss that dimension...
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HOF QBs have won 12 of the last 15 Super Bowls. Who is the HOF QB in this bunch? Not 1 guy is creating the buzz of a E Manning or a Ben or a Brees when they were drafted.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There's some corners thinking this QB class could be a replay of 1983. Like at least four, and maybe 5-6 going in the first round? Just have to find the right one.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There's some corners thinking this QB class could be a replay of 1983. Like at least four, and maybe 5-6 going in the first round? Just have to find the right one.
And there are some that think this may be a repeat of the Ponder/Lockert/Gabbert draft...or the Joey Harrington/David Carr draft.
My guess: It may be like 1999. 1 will have a borderline HOF career (McNabb), another will be a good serviceable QB for a good while (Culpepper), One will have his career cut short by injury (Couch)....and two will be out and out busts (Akili, McNown)
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There's some corners thinking this QB class could be a replay of 1983. Like at least four, and maybe 5-6 going in the first round? Just have to find the right one.
And there are some that think this may be a repeat of the Ponder/Lockert/Gabbert draft...or the Joey Harrington/David Carr draft.
My guess: It may be like 1999. 1 will have a borderline HOF career (McNabb), another will be a good serviceable QB for a good while (Culpepper), One will have his career cut short by injury (Couch)....and two will be out and out busts (Akili, McNown)
And there are some that think this may be a repeat of the Ponder/Lockert/Gabbert draft...or the Joey Harrington/David Carr draft.
My guess: It may be like 1999. 1 will have a borderline HOF career (McNabb), another will be a good serviceable QB for a good while (Culpepper), One will have his career cut short by injury (Couch)....and two will be out and out busts (Akili, McNown)
The scary thing there they're hyping this group as maybe three in the top 10 or so even higher expectations than that bust class. I wonder if they drop some draft day?
1. 2011 - Busts (pick): Jake Locker (8th), Blaine Gabbert (10th), Christian Ponder (12th)
GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND! -
I'm not of the opinion that Barkley is bad, in fact I think he CAN be really good. But in what you propose here, everything would have to work out all together.
I think Barkley is a fair bit better than the next best back, but that doesn't mean that you can't get close production later. His workout was GREAT, but there has also been other great workouts in past from players who didn't pan out. I think changing a view based on a workout would scare me a bit.
Another thing that would worry me is his inconsistency. Ohio State is the most like an NFL defense that he faced and he didn't perform great. Was that all his fault, NO, but would still give me pause. Even these guys that "suck" or "bust" in the NFL were the best of the best in college, and the discrepancy between good and bad is small as compared to college.
But the thing that would worry me more than any other thing is settling for the 3rd best QB in your eyes. While all 3 could be good, average, or bad, when you have had bad player there for almost 20 years, and it being the most important position, you need to find your guy. And while different teams COULD have different guys at the top, and COULD have them all rated closely, I can't remember 3 being that close (And I could be wrong). What I do remember, is a few years ago that at different times, Goff, Wentz, and Lynch were all rated the best, and many were very surprised Lynch wasn't taken A LOT higher. Lynch was the 3rd taken, do you REALLY want the Browns to take that gamble where say Darnold is Goff (Pac 12), Allen is Wentz (smaller school) and Mayfield and Rosen are Lynch and Cook.
Again, I am not saying they shouldn't take Barkley, but there are certainly more things to consider more than him being able to score touchdowns and be a 3 down back.
Gunz, I was where you are all the way until Saturday. At #1 overall, I've always been under the impression you have to get yourself someone that has emerged as the best player in the draft (unless a QB emerged as a clear cut #1 QB). We did it last year with Garrett and a consensus was fine with it right? That said, we traded out of pick #12 so Houston could draft Watson who was great while he lasted. Because he did NOT last neither did their brief bout of competing so we are now drafting 4th overall because of it.
THIS YEAR what QB has separated himself from the rest? If we're being honest nobody did better than Josh Allen; and I cannot stand his accuracy issues when there's corners and pass rushers on the field or especially when he faced the better DI defenses. I posted his catastrophic stats against the better competition in 2017. So who else? Darnold is so confident in himself - he's waiting? Really? For those saying all we have to do is teach ball security - bad habits can be repeated so long they're perfected to the extent they never get corrected (see Kizer). Rosen threw well. Mayfield looked good. Lamar Jackson was inconsistent. Was there a big difference between the more hyped up QBs and Toledo's Logan Woodside, WKU's Mike White or Richmond's Kyle Lauletta (also Senior Bowl MVP)? Not as much as I wanted to see. Not that the combines are a tell-all; because again defenses challenging time to throw, mechanics and accuracy didn't show us the same Josh Allen at all unless 16 TD passes in a season dazzles one. IMO, we've already had QBs exactly like Josh Allen (DA, Weeden and Kizer).
I didn't make Barkley the #1 rated player PRIOR to the combines, not to be confused with the mock drafts. Here's his stats before we even get to the combines punctuating them. I think you'll see a big difference between his reception volume of 54 and Sony Michel's volume of 9 in 14-15 games to understand why he'll be a 3 down back. https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/saquon-barkley-1.html
There's only 2 teams drafting between us and us at 1 and 4 with not 1 QB separating himself from the rest in a draft I can't ever remember so many equivalent QB prospects. If there was an Andrew Luck emerging, I'd be all in. Even in that draft with Andrew Luck, do you know what QBs became better than the 1st round QBs like RG3, Ryan Tannehill and Brandon Weeden? Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins (about to be paid serious cake). Back to my question, was there a BIG difference between the perceived 1st round QBs and the Logan Woodsides, Mike Allens, and Lyle Laulettas? Not as much as I hoped to see. Every fave I have or had - has some serious things I worry about. That being the case, I'm way more okay with the worst case scenario of taking the 3rd QB off the board in this draft class. Keep in mind, if we WANT a FA QB interested - it might be a good idea to tell him we're drafting Barkley 1st. People are acting like I'm saying I want to wait until round 3 or 4. No, just pick #4 where someone once chose Philip Rivers (over Ben Roethlisberger). The following QBs have been drafted long after pick#4 - Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott, Kirk Cousins, Derek Carr, Jimmy Garapollo, Big Ben, Nick Foles, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Brett Favre, Dan Marino and Tom Brady just off the top of my head... This might be a year a very good year to pick a QB at #4 overall just 3 picks after securing our very first scoring weapon in the starting lineup.
Gunz, I was where you are all the way until Saturday. At #1 overall, I've always been under the impression you have to get yourself someone that has emerged as the best player in the draft (unless a QB emerged as a clear cut #1 QB). We did it last year with Garrett and a consensus was fine with it right? That said, we traded out of pick #12 so Houston could draft Watson who was great while he lasted. Because he did NOT last neither did their brief bout of competing so we are now drafting 4th overall because of it.
THIS YEAR what QB has separated himself from the rest? If we're being honest nobody did better than Josh Allen; and I cannot stand his accuracy issues when there's corners and pass rushers on the field or especially when he faced the better DI defenses. I posted his catastrophic stats against the better competition in 2017. So who else? Darnold is so confident in himself - he's waiting? Really? For those saying all we have to do is teach ball security - bad habits can be repeated so long they're perfected to the extent they never get corrected (see Kizer). Rosen threw well. Mayfield looked good. Lamar Jackson was inconsistent. Was there a big difference between the more hyped up QBs and Toledo's Logan Woodside, WKU's Mike White or Richmond's Kyle Lauletta (also Senior Bowl MVP)? Not as much as I wanted to see. Not that the combines are a tell-all; because again defenses challenging time to throw, mechanics and accuracy didn't show us the same Josh Allen at all unless 16 TD passes in a season dazzles one. IMO, we've already had QBs exactly like Josh Allen (DA, Weeden and Kizer).
I didn't make Barkley the #1 rated player PRIOR to the combines, not to be confused with the mock drafts. Here's his stats before we even get to the combines punctuating them. I think you'll see a big difference between his reception volume of 54 and Sony Michel's volume of 9 in 14-15 games to understand why he'll be a 3 down back. https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/saquon-barkley-1.html
There's only 2 teams drafting between us and us at 1 and 4 with not 1 QB separating himself from the rest in a draft I can't ever remember so many equivalent QB prospects. If there was an Andrew Luck emerging, I'd be all in. Even in that draft with Andrew Luck, do you know what QBs became better than the 1st round QBs like RG3, Ryan Tannehill and Brandon Weeden? Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins (about to be paid serious cake). Back to my question, was there a BIG difference between the perceived 1st round QBs and the Logan Woodsides, Mike Allens, and Lyle Laulettas? Not as much as I hoped to see. Every fave I have or had - has some serious things I worry about. That being the case, I'm way more okay with the worst case scenario of taking the 3rd QB off the board in this draft class. Keep in mind, if we WANT a FA QB interested - it might be a good idea to tell him we're drafting Barkley 1st. People are acting like I'm saying I want to wait until round 3 or 4. No, just pick #4 where someone once chose Philip Rivers (over Ben Roethlisberger). The following QBs have been drafted long after pick#4 - Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott, Kirk Cousins, Derek Carr, Jimmy Garapollo, Big Ben, Nick Foles, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Brett Favre, Dan Marino and Tom Brady just off the top of my head... This might be a year a very good year to pick a QB at #4 overall just 3 picks after securing our very first scoring weapon in the starting lineup.
I dont care if the Browns take Barkley, but to think that EVERYTHING is going to work out perfectly is just a bit cuckoo to me. There are certainly cases each year where a lower round guy turns out to be good. They are then called steals. They were ranked close to where they should have been, but there are things you just can't measure.
To me, I just don't like the idea of possibly your 3rd choice of QB especially that is the most important position. There maybe what 20 franchise QB in the league, give or take. There is a low chance that 3 come out of same draft. It could be like Eli, Rivers, Big Ben, or Cam, Locker, Ponder, etc.
But the biggest key to me replying when people are talking about Barkley, is how he is talked about. From the beaming stuff of Po, to it seems like others just think he is the perfect prospect with no flaws, to not looking at some of his inconsistency playing.
Besides Po, who from what I have read will never admit he was wrong ( hmm Ghoolie little brother maybe) as he still on the Colt, Trent, Gordon, Hogan bandwagon, how many other people here who are the Barkley train will be SCREAMING about the Browns passing on the QB, no matter how good Barkley is.
Here is a good way to look at the building of a team. Think of it as grades in school, with GPA. So say the Browns get Barkley, and even if I certainly see flaws in his tape, let's give him an A, because he certainly has that ability. (And this is under the assumption that he doesn't last to 4, and top 2 qbs dont last to 4) so the Browns then COULD get 3rd QB at 4 and they turn out to be Paxton or even a bit better, so we will give that QB a C. And then 33- they get a B/C defender.
So Saquon at 1 (A), QB at 4 (C), and defender at 33 (B). Average of B
QB at 1 (A), defender at 4 (A/B), RB at 33 (B). That's an average of B+
The best case scenario for EVERYONE is to get THE guy at QB and Barkley. Well not everyone, as some want QB and defense, but which is the greater of 2
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And there are some that think this may be a repeat of the Ponder/Lockert/Gabbert draft...or the Joey Harrington/David Carr draft.
My guess: It may be like 1999. 1 will have a borderline HOF career (McNabb), another will be a good serviceable QB for a good while (Culpepper), One will have his career cut short by injury (Couch)....and two will be out and out busts (Akili, McNown)
The scary thing there they're hyping this group as maybe three in the top 10 or so even higher expectations than that bust class. I wonder if they drop some draft day?
1. 2011 - Busts (pick): Jake Locker (8th), Blaine Gabbert (10th), Christian Ponder (12th)
The scary thing there they're hyping this group as maybe three in the top 10 or so even higher expectations than that bust class. I wonder if they drop some draft day?
1. 2011 - Busts (pick): Jake Locker (8th), Blaine Gabbert (10th), Christian Ponder (12th)
We will have to really give it 5-7 years to decide if this draft class is 1983/2004ish....or 2011/1999ish
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If you think you have the right QB-----------take him and don't look back. Next take the big time FS coach on the field so you can move Peppers to SS. Then you trade back up into the 1st for your RB and maybe even for the CB if you have one targeted. Only exception might be if Chubb is still there @4. You can't pass the complimentary pass rusher in the DL to go with Garrett & Ogbah. There are other FSs in the 2nd round that are serviceable.
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It may create a problem, for 1 or 2 years, and the rookie would sit. No team is going to be that loyal to a player when they are thinking about their future. Look what they did last year when they had no chance. They SHOULD think about their future.
The Coach got fired for benching Manning.
And yes like I already said, Colts may very well need a RB. They also need a lot of other things, and COULD trade that pick or look at helping their porous defense. They aren't just a RB away. They get Barkley, they may score 1-2 TD more a game (that's A LOT), they would have to outscore opponents as their DEFENSE was a fair amount worse than Browns.
The Colts defense was 10th vs the run. Browns were 5th. Fair amount worse? Yeah, I guess so http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef
The Colts run game was 24th in the NFL in 2017. Plus, they bad QB play. The Giants run game was ranked 29th. NYG or Indy will grab Barkley if the Browns pass. I reckon by your standards there Guns the Browns OFFENSE was a fair amount worse than the Giants http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff The only silver lining on the Browns offense was the 10th ranked run game and now Crowell is off to make his fortune.
Look at team efficiency and where the last 3 teams are drafting? You take Barkley because he can help your offense the most right now http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff
You failed to read ANYTHING beyond that paragraph apparently.
Sometimes it gets a little verbose.
I guess I have to use other sport analogies. Even if I don't like him, best basketball player in the league. Lebron. Even having the best player, they arent the best team. If they had a top pick, should they pick the best athlete in draft even if it doesn't help them get over the top, when what they need is a PG? Or maybe your flavor is baseball, Mike Trout is best player, yet they don't make postseason, but should they draft another C.F. because he is best player in draft even those they need a SP. OR maybe you like hockey? I dont, but isn't Ovechkin supposed to be best player. They should draft another scorer, even though the reason they have never won is because they have a bad goalie?
I love sports analogies. Who told you different?
I know that the Browns dont have a QB. They also need a RB who can make a difference like a Bell, Gurley, Hunt, Fournette - all 2017 playoff teams.
The Giants have a QB, but they need a RB with the 29th rush offense in 2017
The Colts have a QB assuming Luck is healthy, but they had the 24th rush offense in the NFL and now Gore is gone.
The idea of ANY team sport isn't to have the PLAYER at a position, it's to have the best team. You may not have the best player at any position, but the right team. You have to figure out how to assemble the best team, and while Barkley may get you 2000 yards and 25 TD total, if you don't have the complementary pieces it's all for naught. While maybe another back gets you 1500 and 15 TDs while the other pieces are better, you could be in good position
I am building the best team.
Barkley at 1 and youre set at RB for 4 years. QB at 4 and youre set at that position for the foreseeable future. Sign a Vet FA QB to take over this season while your rookie QB learns the game.
The Coach got fired for benching Manning.
The Colts defense was 10th vs the run. Browns were 5th. Fair amount worse? Yeah, I guess so http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef
The Colts run game was 24th in the NFL in 2017. Plus, they bad QB play. The Giants run game was ranked 29th. NYG or Indy will grab Barkley if the Browns pass. I reckon by your standards there Guns the Browns OFFENSE was a fair amount worse than the Giants http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff The only silver lining on the Browns offense was the 10th ranked run game and now Crowell is off to make his fortune.
Look at team efficiency and where the last 3 teams are drafting? You take Barkley because he can help your offense the most right now http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff
Sometimes it gets a little verbose.
I love sports analogies. Who told you different?
I know that the Browns dont have a QB. They also need a RB who can make a difference like a Bell, Gurley, Hunt, Fournette - all 2017 playoff teams.
The Giants have a QB, but they need a RB with the 29th rush offense in 2017
The Colts have a QB assuming Luck is healthy, but they had the 24th rush offense in the NFL and now Gore is gone.
I am building the best team.
Barkley at 1 and youre set at RB for 4 years. QB at 4 and youre set at that position for the foreseeable future. Sign a Vet FA QB to take over this season while your rookie QB learns the game.
Do you know how the NFL works?
My man, take off the Patriots hat for a second. That is clouding your judgement, as 31 teams aren't like your Patriots.
I'll go right down the line on what you said.
1. Coached fired, not exactly. It might have been the final straw, but I think how the team was performing and his relationship with players before the benching had more to do with his firing than sitting Manning 1 week. The owner was in board with it too, so if that were the ONLY reason, he should have fired himself as well.
2. The Colts/Giants offense was better and the Browns defense better than Indy. You know why? Better players on those sides of ball. Colts had the better QB.
NOBODY is saying that the Colts are going to draft a QB, if they stay at 3, I think there are 3 potential picks for them: Barkley, Chubb, and Nelson. They could also trade to a team who wants to trade up for a QB to move back a little and gain more picks, because their roster is bad. More on the Giants next
3. The Giants do have a QB, for maybe next 2 years, then what? I dont expect the Giants to be nearly that bad next season, as their entire team was hurt last year on offense, and thus defense on the field more, resulting in more points. The Giants STILL have a good defense. So do you honestly belief they will find Elis replacement drafting lower in 1st in a year or 2? If the Giants draft a QB, it isn't for next year or 2, it is for the FUTURE. Every team, including the Browns, are trying to build for the future. They got rid of aging vets for the future to play the young guys for the future.
Both teams also know, just like the Browns that there are good backs later in the draft, and that you can get similar production from later picks. Maybe not as much as Barkley, but close. The running game is largely predicated upon the O line as well, since they are the reason backs dont get the yards, they are the reason they do.
4. You can build whatever team you want, but the fact doesn't change that the 3rd QB (potentially) isn't looked upon as highly as 1st. Maybe they all turn out good, and that is great, but having the best back for 4 years like you said isn't a long time, and without the QB it's all for naught. And you said none of these QBs have that buzz, but now they are setting the Browns up for the future, which is it?
If the Browns find the best QB in the 7th, that is great, but they have to find the QB.
Realistically, how much better does 4 years of Saquon Barkley make the team?
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I'm not of the opinion that Barkley is bad, in fact I think he CAN be really good. But in what you propose here, everything would have to work out all together.
I think Barkley is a fair bit better than the next best back, but that doesn't mean that you can't get close production later. His workout was GREAT, but there has also been other great workouts in past from players who didn't pan out. I think changing a view based on a workout would scare me a bit.
Another thing that would worry me is his inconsistency. Ohio State is the most like an NFL defense that he faced and he didn't perform great. Was that all his fault, NO, but would still give me pause. Even these guys that "suck" or "bust" in the NFL were the best of the best in college, and the discrepancy between good and bad is small as compared to college.
But the thing that would worry me more than any other thing is settling for the 3rd best QB in your eyes. While all 3 could be good, average, or bad, when you have had bad player there for almost 20 years, and it being the most important position, you need to find your guy. And while different teams COULD have different guys at the top, and COULD have them all rated closely, I can't remember 3 being that close (And I could be wrong). What I do remember, is a few years ago that at different times, Goff, Wentz, and Lynch were all rated the best, and many were very surprised Lynch wasn't taken A LOT higher. Lynch was the 3rd taken, do you REALLY want the Browns to take that gamble where say Darnold is Goff (Pac 12), Allen is Wentz (smaller school) and Mayfield and Rosen are Lynch and Cook.
Again, I am not saying they shouldn't take Barkley, but there are certainly more things to consider more than him being able to score touchdowns and be a 3 down back.
Gunz, I was where you are all the way until Saturday. At #1 overall, I've always been under the impression you have to get yourself someone that has emerged as the best player in the draft (unless a QB emerged as a clear cut #1 QB). We did it last year with Garrett and a consensus was fine with it right? That said, we traded out of pick #12 so Houston could draft Watson who was great while he lasted. Because he did NOT last neither did their brief bout of competing so we are now drafting 4th overall because of it.
THIS YEAR what QB has separated himself from the rest? If we're being honest nobody did better than Josh Allen; and I cannot stand his accuracy issues when there's corners and pass rushers on the field or especially when he faced the better DI defenses. I posted his catastrophic stats against the better competition in 2017. So who else? Darnold is so confident in himself - he's waiting? Really? For those saying all we have to do is teach ball security - bad habits can be repeated so long they're perfected to the extent they never get corrected (see Kizer). Rosen threw well. Mayfield looked good. Lamar Jackson was inconsistent. Was there a big difference between the more hyped up QBs and Toledo's Logan Woodside, WKU's Mike White or Richmond's Kyle Lauletta (also Senior Bowl MVP)? Not as much as I wanted to see. Not that the combines are a tell-all; because again defenses challenging time to throw, mechanics and accuracy didn't show us the same Josh Allen at all unless 16 TD passes in a season dazzles one. IMO, we've already had QBs exactly like Josh Allen (DA, Weeden and Kizer).
I didn't make Barkley the #1 rated player PRIOR to the combines, not to be confused with the mock drafts. Here's his stats before we even get to the combines punctuating them. I think you'll see a big difference between his reception volume of 54 and Sony Michel's volume of 9 in 14-15 games to understand why he'll be a 3 down back. https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/saquon-barkley-1.html
There's only 2 teams drafting between us and us at 1 and 4 with not 1 QB separating himself from the rest in a draft I can't ever remember so many equivalent QB prospects. If there was an Andrew Luck emerging, I'd be all in. Even in that draft with Andrew Luck, do you know what QBs became better than the 1st round QBs like RG3, Ryan Tannehill and Brandon Weeden? Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins (about to be paid serious cake). Back to my question, was there a BIG difference between the perceived 1st round QBs and the Logan Woodsides, Mike Allens, and Lyle Laulettas? Not as much as I hoped to see. Every fave I have or had - has some serious things I worry about. That being the case, I'm way more okay with the worst case scenario of taking the 3rd QB off the board in this draft class. Keep in mind, if we WANT a FA QB interested - it might be a good idea to tell him we're drafting Barkley 1st. People are acting like I'm saying I want to wait until round 3 or 4. No, just pick #4 where someone once chose Philip Rivers (over Ben Roethlisberger). The following QBs have been drafted long after pick#4 - Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott, Kirk Cousins, Derek Carr, Jimmy Garapollo, Big Ben, Nick Foles, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Brett Favre, Dan Marino and Tom Brady just off the top of my head... This might be a year a very good year to pick a QB at #4 overall just 3 picks after securing our very first scoring weapon in the starting lineup.
Gunz, I was where you are all the way until Saturday. At #1 overall, I've always been under the impression you have to get yourself someone that has emerged as the best player in the draft (unless a QB emerged as a clear cut #1 QB). We did it last year with Garrett and a consensus was fine with it right? That said, we traded out of pick #12 so Houston could draft Watson who was great while he lasted. Because he did NOT last neither did their brief bout of competing so we are now drafting 4th overall because of it.
THIS YEAR what QB has separated himself from the rest? If we're being honest nobody did better than Josh Allen; and I cannot stand his accuracy issues when there's corners and pass rushers on the field or especially when he faced the better DI defenses. I posted his catastrophic stats against the better competition in 2017. So who else? Darnold is so confident in himself - he's waiting? Really? For those saying all we have to do is teach ball security - bad habits can be repeated so long they're perfected to the extent they never get corrected (see Kizer). Rosen threw well. Mayfield looked good. Lamar Jackson was inconsistent. Was there a big difference between the more hyped up QBs and Toledo's Logan Woodside, WKU's Mike White or Richmond's Kyle Lauletta (also Senior Bowl MVP)? Not as much as I wanted to see. Not that the combines are a tell-all; because again defenses challenging time to throw, mechanics and accuracy didn't show us the same Josh Allen at all unless 16 TD passes in a season dazzles one. IMO, we've already had QBs exactly like Josh Allen (DA, Weeden and Kizer).
I didn't make Barkley the #1 rated player PRIOR to the combines, not to be confused with the mock drafts. Here's his stats before we even get to the combines punctuating them. I think you'll see a big difference between his reception volume of 54 and Sony Michel's volume of 9 in 14-15 games to understand why he'll be a 3 down back. https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/saquon-barkley-1.html
There's only 2 teams drafting between us and us at 1 and 4 with not 1 QB separating himself from the rest in a draft I can't ever remember so many equivalent QB prospects. If there was an Andrew Luck emerging, I'd be all in. Even in that draft with Andrew Luck, do you know what QBs became better than the 1st round QBs like RG3, Ryan Tannehill and Brandon Weeden? Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins (about to be paid serious cake). Back to my question, was there a BIG difference between the perceived 1st round QBs and the Logan Woodsides, Mike Allens, and Lyle Laulettas? Not as much as I hoped to see. Every fave I have or had - has some serious things I worry about. That being the case, I'm way more okay with the worst case scenario of taking the 3rd QB off the board in this draft class. Keep in mind, if we WANT a FA QB interested - it might be a good idea to tell him we're drafting Barkley 1st. People are acting like I'm saying I want to wait until round 3 or 4. No, just pick #4 where someone once chose Philip Rivers (over Ben Roethlisberger). The following QBs have been drafted long after pick#4 - Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott, Kirk Cousins, Derek Carr, Jimmy Garapollo, Big Ben, Nick Foles, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Brett Favre, Dan Marino and Tom Brady just off the top of my head... This might be a year a very good year to pick a QB at #4 overall just 3 picks after securing our very first scoring weapon in the starting lineup.
I forgot one detail. You used the number of catches for each, does that mean the others CAN'T catch it, or the more likely answer is that they didn't throw it to them as much. Michel and Chubb split time as well.
There are reasons for EVERY stat. Just like there is a reason why Barkley struggled in games that could have very little to do him.
Now if you had a stat where they were thrown to same amount of times, that would help thst argument. And had they ran behind same line, that would show something
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I meant Phillip Rivers.
There was draft talk about him from NC State.
And I said there was for him.
The point is, there was serious buzz about Leaf, enough thst there was real question whether he or Peyton went 1st.
Buzz means NOTHING.
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As fans we only get a partial view of the big picture. This FO gets to meet with these QB Prospects face to face and put them through the paces. They will have a #1 QB by the time the dust settles, and they cannot take the chance that someone else will draft him.
If they draft scared and let other teams determine who their QB will be so they can use #1 overall on one of the easiest positions to fill, it will be the same old Sheet(unless it works).
Edit: Barkley will probably be there at 4, and if he isn’t, it’s not like you missed out on your QB, so it’s no biggie.
As fans we only get a partial view of the big picture. This FO gets to meet with these QB Prospects face to face and put them through the paces. They will have a #1 QB by the time the dust settles, and they cannot take the chance that someone else will draft him.
If they draft scared and let other teams determine who their QB will be so they can use #1 overall on one of the easiest positions to fill, it will be the same old Sheet(unless it works).
Edit: Barkley will probably be there at 4, and if he isn’t, it’s not like you missed out on your QB, so it’s no biggie.
Royce, you make some valid points. BUT, the last time we drafted a QB in round 1 - there wasn't a consensus in our organization while a better QB like Carr got drafted a round later elsewhere. This year's group of QBs may not be that easy for everyone in FO/staff to be on the same page with. For example, right now Mayock is saying he didn't see why he keeps hearing us taking Mayfield at #4 when there's Josh Allen and Sam Darnold (who was just too terrified to throw at the combines). If anyone in our FO is thinking this very same way - what makes you so certain we HAVE to go QB 1st? Haven't we gone the arm strength over accuracy route ad-nauseum here via DA, Weeden and Kizer? How many times does our history need to show us you can't square peg a round hole?
Again, we've never had way more $ than everyone else needing a veteran FA QB like we have this time around. Nothing about this needs to be terrifying for our Front Office if they defer the QB to #4 overall. Do you know how many great QBs have been drafted after #4 overall? Here's a ratload of those: Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott, Kirk Cousins, Derek Carr, Jimmy Garapollo, Ben Roethlisberger, Nick Foles, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Dan Marino, Joe Montana and Mark Brunell just off the top of my head... And Philip Rivers was drafted at #4 (ahead of Ben Rapen) while Kurt Warner wasn't even drafted. A ton of those guys had at least 2 QBs drafted in front of them. Were their finders all just a bunch of Jethro Clampetts striking oil by accident - or did they have some degree of research behind the investments?
And in Favre's case, the team that drafted him wasn't willing to put the things into him that the team who traded for him did up in GB.
With our FA situation, this might be a very good year to pick a QB at #4 overall just 3 picks after securing our very first scoring weapon in the starting lineup. If we WANT to recruit a veteran QB to come here money alone won't do it. They're going to want at least 1 reliable scoring weapon. Even Josh Gordon isn't one if we count his last 10 starts since 2013 with only 1 TD. This is ANOTHER reason I want us to bring Barkley here aside from his very underrated receiving skills. Counting his 2 kickoff returns for scores in 2017, he's got 45 TDs in the last 2 years. I'm pretty confident that will help us recruit a veteran QB; plus we may be losing our previous starting RB.
There's more than 1 thing that took this stubborn knucklehead from 1 side of this debate to the other. If people can just read the rationale, they might get it more than they are willing to. There's only 2 teams drafting between us at 1 and us at 4 and if one of them takes Josh Allen - I'll send them all the candy and flowers they could ever want.
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It all depends on which QB they think is the best. If' it's Darnold, they have to take him at 1. If they think that Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield are all basically equals and they all have positives and negatives and they're happy ending up with any of the 3 then I can see taking Barkley and then taking whatever QB is left. From what I heard (I didn't watch) Rosen didn't look all that great on Saturday. I still like Darnold and I am very intrigued by Mayfield. I think he could be a Brees or Wilson type player.
No question Barkley is a stud and certainly looks like a guy who will be a game changer, the problem is we need a QB and we have the choice of the litter and really shouldn't settle for our 3rd choice in exchange for a RB, when history has proven that stud running backs can be found later in the draft, at say pick 33.
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Dorsey doesn't agree with you. It's not looking good for the Saquon at #1 crowd currently. We've already been down this road with Po a dozen times. It's few and far between "generational" running backs win Super Bowls- and definitely not without a super talented team around them. The last one to do so was Emmett Smith, and that was over 20 years ago.
HOF QBs have won 12 of the last 15 Super Bowls. Who is the HOF QB in this bunch? Not 1 guy is creating the buzz of a E Manning or a Ben or a Brees when they were drafted.
Marshall Faulk won in 2000 https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FaulMa00.htm
Marshwan Lynch won the Super Bowl in 2013 https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LyncMa00.htm
Lynch helped Wilson win one as a rookie. The Browns would be crazy to pass on Barkley.
HOF QBs have won 12 of the last 15 Super Bowls. Who is the HOF QB in this bunch? Not 1 guy is creating the buzz of a E Manning or a Ben or a Brees when they were drafted.
Marshall Faulk won in 2000 https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FaulMa00.htm
Marshwan Lynch won the Super Bowl in 2013 https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LyncMa00.htm
Lynch helped Wilson win one as a rookie. The Browns would be crazy to pass on Barkley.
He says "few and far between" and you support your claim by posting two examples in 17 years of football seasons. One of those examples had a HOF QB under center and a current top 10 QB in the NFL. Very nice!
If the Browns like a QB enough to think he's the future of franchise, we take him number 1-there's no debate. Sam Darnold is being compared to Andrew Luck by NFL scouts, he got a little buzz if I'm remembering correctly. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2018/profiles/sam-darnold?id=2560057
The Browns have been awful for going on two decades because they've failed to draft a franchise QB. You can point to busts all you want, but I can equally point to Ki-Jana Carter and others (cough, Trent Richardson, cough) for massive failures at the RB position. Don't even get me started on the whole "well he could have been good if the talent was better" argument either. Dozens of Browns rejects have gone to better teams, gotten a chance to start, and showed they were equally bad to back-up caliber players (Quinn, Anderson, McCoy) and that's just off the top of my head.
I think Barkley is going to be a great player, don't get me wrong. But a QB is unquestionably and always more valuable. Hell, we've had RB's on the team that are currently 2nd and 3rd for most rushing yards in a game and it sure as hell hasn't gotten the organization very far along.
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The Coach got fired for benching Manning.
The Colts defense was 10th vs the run. Browns were 5th. Fair amount worse? Yeah, I guess so http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef
The Colts run game was 24th in the NFL in 2017. Plus, they bad QB play. The Giants run game was ranked 29th. NYG or Indy will grab Barkley if the Browns pass. I reckon by your standards there Guns the Browns OFFENSE was a fair amount worse than the Giants http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff The only silver lining on the Browns offense was the 10th ranked run game and now Crowell is off to make his fortune.
Look at team efficiency and where the last 3 teams are drafting? You take Barkley because he can help your offense the most right now http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff
Sometimes it gets a little verbose.
I love sports analogies. Who told you different?
I know that the Browns dont have a QB. They also need a RB who can make a difference like a Bell, Gurley, Hunt, Fournette - all 2017 playoff teams.
The Giants have a QB, but they need a RB with the 29th rush offense in 2017
The Colts have a QB assuming Luck is healthy, but they had the 24th rush offense in the NFL and now Gore is gone.
I am building the best team.
Barkley at 1 and youre set at RB for 4 years. QB at 4 and youre set at that position for the foreseeable future. Sign a Vet FA QB to take over this season while your rookie QB learns the game.
Do you know how the NFL works?
My man, take off the Patriots hat for a second. That is clouding your judgement, as 31 teams aren't like your Patriots.
I'll go right down the line on what you said.
1. Coached fired, not exactly. It might have been the final straw, but I think how the team was performing and his relationship with players before the benching had more to do with his firing than sitting Manning 1 week. The owner was in board with it too, so if that were the ONLY reason, he should have fired himself as well.
2. The Colts/Giants offense was better and the Browns defense better than Indy. You know why? Better players on those sides of ball. Colts had the better QB.
NOBODY is saying that the Colts are going to draft a QB, if they stay at 3, I think there are 3 potential picks for them: Barkley, Chubb, and Nelson. They could also trade to a team who wants to trade up for a QB to move back a little and gain more picks, because their roster is bad. More on the Giants next
3. The Giants do have a QB, for maybe next 2 years, then what? I dont expect the Giants to be nearly that bad next season, as their entire team was hurt last year on offense, and thus defense on the field more, resulting in more points. The Giants STILL have a good defense. So do you honestly belief they will find Elis replacement drafting lower in 1st in a year or 2? If the Giants draft a QB, it isn't for next year or 2, it is for the FUTURE. Every team, including the Browns, are trying to build for the future. They got rid of aging vets for the future to play the young guys for the future.
Both teams also know, just like the Browns that there are good backs later in the draft, and that you can get similar production from later picks. Maybe not as much as Barkley, but close. The running game is largely predicated upon the O line as well, since they are the reason backs dont get the yards, they are the reason they do.
4. You can build whatever team you want, but the fact doesn't change that the 3rd QB (potentially) isn't looked upon as highly as 1st. Maybe they all turn out good, and that is great, but having the best back for 4 years like you said isn't a long time, and without the QB it's all for naught. And you said none of these QBs have that buzz, but now they are setting the Browns up for the future, which is it?
If the Browns find the best QB in the 7th, that is great, but they have to find the QB.
Realistically, how much better does 4 years of Saquon Barkley make the team?
Do you know how the NFL works?
My man, take off the Patriots hat for a second. That is clouding your judgement, as 31 teams aren't like your Patriots.
I'll go right down the line on what you said.
1. Coached fired, not exactly. It might have been the final straw, but I think how the team was performing and his relationship with players before the benching had more to do with his firing than sitting Manning 1 week. The owner was in board with it too, so if that were the ONLY reason, he should have fired himself as well.
2. The Colts/Giants offense was better and the Browns defense better than Indy. You know why? Better players on those sides of ball. Colts had the better QB.
NOBODY is saying that the Colts are going to draft a QB, if they stay at 3, I think there are 3 potential picks for them: Barkley, Chubb, and Nelson. They could also trade to a team who wants to trade up for a QB to move back a little and gain more picks, because their roster is bad. More on the Giants next
3. The Giants do have a QB, for maybe next 2 years, then what? I dont expect the Giants to be nearly that bad next season, as their entire team was hurt last year on offense, and thus defense on the field more, resulting in more points. The Giants STILL have a good defense. So do you honestly belief they will find Elis replacement drafting lower in 1st in a year or 2? If the Giants draft a QB, it isn't for next year or 2, it is for the FUTURE. Every team, including the Browns, are trying to build for the future. They got rid of aging vets for the future to play the young guys for the future.
Both teams also know, just like the Browns that there are good backs later in the draft, and that you can get similar production from later picks. Maybe not as much as Barkley, but close. The running game is largely predicated upon the O line as well, since they are the reason backs dont get the yards, they are the reason they do.
4. You can build whatever team you want, but the fact doesn't change that the 3rd QB (potentially) isn't looked upon as highly as 1st. Maybe they all turn out good, and that is great, but having the best back for 4 years like you said isn't a long time, and without the QB it's all for naught. And you said none of these QBs have that buzz, but now they are setting the Browns up for the future, which is it?
If the Browns find the best QB in the 7th, that is great, but they have to find the QB.
Realistically, how much better does 4 years of Saquon Barkley make the team?
Gun
I got no problem with you, but youre not reading what I write.
ESPN's Chris Mortensen reported that, "McAdoo's handling -- or mismanagement -- of how Eli Manning has been benched has been met with open unhappiness from Giants [CEO] John Mara, who is extremely fond of the two-time Super Bowl MVP." https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/giants-reportedly-fire-ben-mcadoo-days-after-he-benches-eli-manning/
Macadoo went 11 - 5 the previous season with Manning. In 2017 they lost Beckham and had a lousy run game.
2 Yes the Browns run offense was better with Crowell who is now a FA. Colts have the better QB if Luck is back 100%, but now they no RB. Giants have a 2 time Super Bowl QB who has proven that he can win in big games, but they had the 29th rushing offense in the NFL last year.
3 If the Giants take a QB at 2 then Manning is done. He will have 1 foot on a banana peel from the get go. The Giants are a well run franchise. Always have been, but I just do not see them taking a QB in the 1st round. They traded up for Manning when they wanted to make a move at QB. Also, youre taking a player who would sit and do your team little good if Manning does somehow turn it around.
4 I am not hearing that this Rosen kid looks like the best QB in the crop. Nor Darnold, or Allen, or Rudloph etc. With about 7 weeks to go till draft day you would think that at least 1 guy would distance himself from the others. If the Giants took Rosen would Darnold, Mayfield, Rudolph or Allen be a bad pick for the Browns? I dont think so. You are building for the future because the rookie QB should learn behind a Vet QB.
With Barkley, if the Browns rushing attack was top 5 for 4 years I guess I am missing how that would not be a good thing.
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Gunz, I was where you are all the way until Saturday. At #1 overall, I've always been under the impression you have to get yourself someone that has emerged as the best player in the draft (unless a QB emerged as a clear cut #1 QB). We did it last year with Garrett and a consensus was fine with it right? That said, we traded out of pick #12 so Houston could draft Watson who was great while he lasted. Because he did NOT last neither did their brief bout of competing so we are now drafting 4th overall because of it.
THIS YEAR what QB has separated himself from the rest? If we're being honest nobody did better than Josh Allen; and I cannot stand his accuracy issues when there's corners and pass rushers on the field or especially when he faced the better DI defenses. I posted his catastrophic stats against the better competition in 2017. So who else? Darnold is so confident in himself - he's waiting? Really? For those saying all we have to do is teach ball security - bad habits can be repeated so long they're perfected to the extent they never get corrected (see Kizer). Rosen threw well. Mayfield looked good. Lamar Jackson was inconsistent. Was there a big difference between the more hyped up QBs and Toledo's Logan Woodside, WKU's Mike White or Richmond's Kyle Lauletta (also Senior Bowl MVP)? Not as much as I wanted to see. Not that the combines are a tell-all; because again defenses challenging time to throw, mechanics and accuracy didn't show us the same Josh Allen at all unless 16 TD passes in a season dazzles one. IMO, we've already had QBs exactly like Josh Allen (DA, Weeden and Kizer).
I didn't make Barkley the #1 rated player PRIOR to the combines, not to be confused with the mock drafts. Here's his stats before we even get to the combines punctuating them. I think you'll see a big difference between his reception volume of 54 and Sony Michel's volume of 9 in 14-15 games to understand why he'll be a 3 down back. https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/saquon-barkley-1.html
There's only 2 teams drafting between us and us at 1 and 4 with not 1 QB separating himself from the rest in a draft I can't ever remember so many equivalent QB prospects. If there was an Andrew Luck emerging, I'd be all in. Even in that draft with Andrew Luck, do you know what QBs became better than the 1st round QBs like RG3, Ryan Tannehill and Brandon Weeden? Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins (about to be paid serious cake). Back to my question, was there a BIG difference between the perceived 1st round QBs and the Logan Woodsides, Mike Allens, and Lyle Laulettas? Not as much as I hoped to see. Every fave I have or had - has some serious things I worry about. That being the case, I'm way more okay with the worst case scenario of taking the 3rd QB off the board in this draft class. Keep in mind, if we WANT a FA QB interested - it might be a good idea to tell him we're drafting Barkley 1st. People are acting like I'm saying I want to wait until round 3 or 4. No, just pick #4 where someone once chose Philip Rivers (over Ben Roethlisberger). The following QBs have been drafted long after pick#4 - Russell Wilson, Dak Prescott, Kirk Cousins, Derek Carr, Jimmy Garapollo, Big Ben, Nick Foles, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Brett Favre, Dan Marino and Tom Brady just off the top of my head... This might be a year a very good year to pick a QB at #4 overall just 3 picks after securing our very first scoring weapon in the starting lineup.
I dont care if the Browns take Barkley, but to think that EVERYTHING is going to work out perfectly is just a bit cuckoo to me. There are certainly cases each year where a lower round guy turns out to be good. They are then called steals. They were ranked close to where they should have been, but there are things you just can't measure.
To me, I just don't like the idea of possibly your 3rd choice of QB especially that is the most important position. There maybe what 20 franchise QB in the league, give or take. There is a low chance that 3 come out of same draft. It could be like Eli, Rivers, Big Ben, or Cam, Locker, Ponder, etc.
But the biggest key to me replying when people are talking about Barkley, is how he is talked about. From the beaming stuff of Po, to it seems like others just think he is the perfect prospect with no flaws, to not looking at some of his inconsistency playing.
Besides Po, who from what I have read will never admit he was wrong ( hmm Ghoolie little brother maybe) as he still on the Colt, Trent, Gordon, Hogan bandwagon, how many other people here who are the Barkley train will be SCREAMING about the Browns passing on the QB, no matter how good Barkley is.
Here is a good way to look at the building of a team. Think of it as grades in school, with GPA. So say the Browns get Barkley, and even if I certainly see flaws in his tape, let's give him an A, because he certainly has that ability. (And this is under the assumption that he doesn't last to 4, and top 2 qbs dont last to 4) so the Browns then COULD get 3rd QB at 4 and they turn out to be Paxton or even a bit better, so we will give that QB a C. And then 33- they get a B/C defender.
So Saquon at 1 (A), QB at 4 (C), and defender at 33 (B). Average of B
QB at 1 (A), defender at 4 (A/B), RB at 33 (B). That's an average of B+
The best case scenario for EVERYONE is to get THE guy at QB and Barkley. Well not everyone, as some want QB and defense, but which is the greater of 2
I dont care if the Browns take Barkley, but to think that EVERYTHING is going to work out perfectly is just a bit cuckoo to me. There are certainly cases each year where a lower round guy turns out to be good. They are then called steals. They were ranked close to where they should have been, but there are things you just can't measure.
To me, I just don't like the idea of possibly your 3rd choice of QB especially that is the most important position. There maybe what 20 franchise QB in the league, give or take.
Good point. Let's take a look at QBs drafted and currently starting with at least 3 years of experience on their resumes:
Tom Brady - 6th round
Russell Wilson - 3rd round
Aaron Rodgers - #24 overall (who first sat behind a 2nd round pick Brett Favre)
Ben Roethlisberger - #11 overall
Drew Brees - 2nd round
Philip Rivers - #4 overall and traded to SD from NYG for Eli
Joe Flacco - #18 overall
Derek Carr - 2nd round
Jimmy Garoppolo - 2nd round
Kirk Cousins - 4th round
Matt Ryan - #3 overall
Eli Manning - #1 overall for SD traded to NYG for 4th pick overall Rivers
Blake Bortles - #3 overall
Matthew Stafford - #1 overall
Andrew Luck - #1 overall
Alex Smith - #1 overall
Cam Newton - #1 overall
There's a TON of guys above that were drafted from pick #4 overall and later... One of them is about to get the biggest FA contract of 2018 and he started longer than RG3 for the same team that up to #2 to take RG3.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
The Coach got fired for benching Manning.
The Colts defense was 10th vs the run. Browns were 5th. Fair amount worse? Yeah, I guess so http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef
The Colts run game was 24th in the NFL in 2017. Plus, they bad QB play. The Giants run game was ranked 29th. NYG or Indy will grab Barkley if the Browns pass. I reckon by your standards there Guns the Browns OFFENSE was a fair amount worse than the Giants http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamoff The only silver lining on the Browns offense was the 10th ranked run game and now Crowell is off to make his fortune.
Look at team efficiency and where the last 3 teams are drafting? You take Barkley because he can help your offense the most right now http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff
Sometimes it gets a little verbose.
I love sports analogies. Who told you different?
I know that the Browns dont have a QB. They also need a RB who can make a difference like a Bell, Gurley, Hunt, Fournette - all 2017 playoff teams.
The Giants have a QB, but they need a RB with the 29th rush offense in 2017
The Colts have a QB assuming Luck is healthy, but they had the 24th rush offense in the NFL and now Gore is gone.
I am building the best team.
Barkley at 1 and youre set at RB for 4 years. QB at 4 and youre set at that position for the foreseeable future. Sign a Vet FA QB to take over this season while your rookie QB learns the game.
Do you know how the NFL works?
My man, take off the Patriots hat for a second. That is clouding your judgement, as 31 teams aren't like your Patriots.
I'll go right down the line on what you said.
1. Coached fired, not exactly. It might have been the final straw, but I think how the team was performing and his relationship with players before the benching had more to do with his firing than sitting Manning 1 week. The owner was in board with it too, so if that were the ONLY reason, he should have fired himself as well.
2. The Colts/Giants offense was better and the Browns defense better than Indy. You know why? Better players on those sides of ball. Colts had the better QB.
NOBODY is saying that the Colts are going to draft a QB, if they stay at 3, I think there are 3 potential picks for them: Barkley, Chubb, and Nelson. They could also trade to a team who wants to trade up for a QB to move back a little and gain more picks, because their roster is bad. More on the Giants next
3. The Giants do have a QB, for maybe next 2 years, then what? I dont expect the Giants to be nearly that bad next season, as their entire team was hurt last year on offense, and thus defense on the field more, resulting in more points. The Giants STILL have a good defense. So do you honestly belief they will find Elis replacement drafting lower in 1st in a year or 2? If the Giants draft a QB, it isn't for next year or 2, it is for the FUTURE. Every team, including the Browns, are trying to build for the future. They got rid of aging vets for the future to play the young guys for the future.
Both teams also know, just like the Browns that there are good backs later in the draft, and that you can get similar production from later picks. Maybe not as much as Barkley, but close. The running game is largely predicated upon the O line as well, since they are the reason backs dont get the yards, they are the reason they do.
4. You can build whatever team you want, but the fact doesn't change that the 3rd QB (potentially) isn't looked upon as highly as 1st. Maybe they all turn out good, and that is great, but having the best back for 4 years like you said isn't a long time, and without the QB it's all for naught. And you said none of these QBs have that buzz, but now they are setting the Browns up for the future, which is it?
If the Browns find the best QB in the 7th, that is great, but they have to find the QB.
Realistically, how much better does 4 years of Saquon Barkley make the team?
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I dont care if the Browns take Barkley, but to think that EVERYTHING is going to work out perfectly is just a bit cuckoo to me. There are certainly cases each year where a lower round guy turns out to be good. They are then called steals. They were ranked close to where they should have been, but there are things you just can't measure.
To me, I just don't like the idea of possibly your 3rd choice of QB especially that is the most important position. There maybe what 20 franchise QB in the league, give or take.
Good point. Let's take a look at QBs drafted and currently starting with at least 3 years of experience on their resumes:
Tom Brady - 6th round
Russell Wilson - 3rd round
Aaron Rodgers - #24 overall (who first sat behind a 2nd round pick Brett Favre)
Ben Roethlisberger - #11 overall
Drew Brees - 2nd round
Philip Rivers - #4 overall and traded to SD from NYG for Eli
Joe Flacco - #18 overall
Derek Carr - 2nd round
Jimmy Garoppolo - 2nd round
Kirk Cousins - 4th round
Matt Ryan - #3 overall
Eli Manning - #1 overall for SD traded to NYG for 4th pick overall Rivers
Blake Bortles - #3 overall
Matthew Stafford - #1 overall
Andrew Luck - #1 overall
Alex Smith - #1 overall
Cam Newton - #1 overall
There's a TON of guys above that were drafted from pick #4 overall and later... One of them is about to get the biggest FA contract of 2018 and he started longer than RG3 for the same team that up to #2 to take RG3.
Good point. Let's take a look at QBs drafted and currently starting with at least 3 years of experience on their resumes:
Tom Brady - 6th round
Russell Wilson - 3rd round
Aaron Rodgers - #24 overall (who first sat behind a 2nd round pick Brett Favre)
Ben Roethlisberger - #11 overall
Drew Brees - 2nd round
Philip Rivers - #4 overall and traded to SD from NYG for Eli
Joe Flacco - #18 overall
Derek Carr - 2nd round
Jimmy Garoppolo - 2nd round
Kirk Cousins - 4th round
Matt Ryan - #3 overall
Eli Manning - #1 overall for SD traded to NYG for 4th pick overall Rivers
Blake Bortles - #3 overall
Matthew Stafford - #1 overall
Andrew Luck - #1 overall
Alex Smith - #1 overall
There's a TON of guys above that were drafted from pick #4 overall and later... One of them is about to get the biggest FA contract of 2018 and he started longer than RG3 for the same team that up to #2 to take RG3.
Ist overall picks
Smith - 0 super bowls
Luck - 0 super bowls
Stafford - 0 super bowls
Manning - 2 super bowls
25% odds of hitting it right aint good odds to me.
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I meant Phillip Rivers.
There was draft talk about him from NC State.
And I said there was for him.
The point is, there was serious buzz about Leaf, enough thst there was real question whether he or Peyton went 1st.
Buzz means NOTHING.
And I said there was for him.
The point is, there was serious buzz about Leaf, enough thst there was real question whether he or Peyton went 1st.
Buzz means NOTHING.
OK
Might as well draw names out of a hat.
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HOF QBs have won 12 of the last 15 Super Bowls. Who is the HOF QB in this bunch? Not 1 guy is creating the buzz of a E Manning or a Ben or a Brees when they were drafted.
Marshall Faulk won in 2000 https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FaulMa00.htm
Marshwan Lynch won the Super Bowl in 2013 https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LyncMa00.htm
Lynch helped Wilson win one as a rookie. The Browns would be crazy to pass on Barkley.
He says "few and far between" and you support your claim by posting two examples in 17 years of football seasons. One of those examples had a HOF QB under center and a current top 10 QB in the NFL. Very nice!
If the Browns like a QB enough to think he's the future of franchise, we take him number 1-there's no debate. Sam Darnold is being compared to Andrew Luck by NFL scouts, he got a little buzz if I'm remembering correctly. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2018/profiles/sam-darnold?id=2560057
The Browns have been awful for going on two decades because they've failed to draft a franchise QB. You can point to busts all you want, but I can equally point to Ki-Jana Carter and others (cough, Trent Richardson, cough) for massive failures at the RB position. Don't even get me started on the whole "well he could have been good if the talent was better" argument either. Dozens of Browns rejects have gone to better teams, gotten a chance to start, and showed they were equally bad to back-up caliber players (Quinn, Anderson, McCoy) and that's just off the top of my head.
I think Barkley is going to be a great player, don't get me wrong. But a QB is unquestionably and always more valuable. Hell, we've had RB's on the team that are currently 2nd and 3rd for most rushing yards in a game and it sure as hell hasn't gotten the organization very far along.
He says "few and far between" and you support your claim by posting two examples in 17 years of football seasons. One of those examples had a HOF QB under center and a current top 10 QB in the NFL. Very nice!
The exact quote was that Emmit Smith was the last RB to lead a team to a championship 20 years ago. Its happened as recently as 2013.
Youre right. All you need to do is select the next HOF QB in this draft.
If the Browns like a QB enough to think he's the future of franchise, we take him number 1-there's no debate. Sam Darnold is being compared to Andrew Luck by NFL scouts, he got a little buzz if I'm remembering correctly. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2018/profiles/sam-darnold?id=2560057
The Browns have been awful for going on two decades because they've failed to draft a franchise QB. You can point to busts all you want, but I can equally point to Ki-Jana Carter and others (cough, Trent Richardson, cough) for massive failures at the RB position. Don't even get me started on the whole "well he could have been good if the talent was better" argument either. Dozens of Browns rejects have gone to better teams, gotten a chance to start, and showed they were equally bad to back-up caliber players (Quinn, Anderson, McCoy) and that's just off the top of my head.
I think Barkley is going to be a great player, don't get me wrong. But a QB is unquestionably and always more valuable. Hell, we've had RB's on the team that are currently 2nd and 3rd for most rushing yards in a game and it sure as hell hasn't gotten the organization very far along.
Youre getting a QB at 4 and signing a Vet QB. Thats how you win now. Watson was a surprise in Houston.
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It all depends on which QB they think is the best. If' it's Darnold, they have to take him at 1. If they think that Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield are all basically equals and they all have positives and negatives and they're happy ending up with any of the 3 then I can see taking Barkley and then taking whatever QB is left. From what I heard (I didn't watch) Rosen didn't look all that great on Saturday. I still like Darnold and I am very intrigued by Mayfield. I think he could be a Brees or Wilson type player.
No question Barkley is a stud and certainly looks like a guy who will be a game changer, the problem is we need a QB and we have the choice of the litter and really shouldn't settle for our 3rd choice in exchange for a RB, when history has proven that stud running backs can be found later in the draft, at say pick 33.
It all depends on which QB they think is the best. If' it's Darnold, they have to take him at 1. If they think that Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield are all basically equals and they all have positives and negatives and they're happy ending up with any of the 3 then I can see taking Barkley and then taking whatever QB is left. From what I heard (I didn't watch) Rosen didn't look all that great on Saturday. I still like Darnold and I am very intrigued by Mayfield. I think he could be a Brees or Wilson type player. - Mark O
Agree with everything except for the Rosen thing. He got a lot of compliments even though he had a couple critics. It seemed like more people that thought he looked good than bad who covered the day. In fact, they showed his great deep throw that hit the receiver in stride when they said Allen wasn't the only one looking impressive on the deep ball - Flugel
No question Barkley is a stud and certainly looks like a guy who will be a game changer, the problem is we need a QB and we have the choice of the litter and really shouldn't settle for our 3rd choice in exchange for a RB, when history has proven that stud running backs can be found later in the draft, at say pick 33. - Mark O
Last week I was right there with this train of thought enjoying how well you articulated to somebody you were debating. In fact, I was on that side of this for months. This week I'm remembering a couple differences than I was willing to previously:
1) We have the most $ to spend for a FA QB by a ton making that a potential pick of the litter opportunity as well in an experienced QB arena. And Philly and Minnesota showed us how important vet QBs can be. It also equips us with an ability to not throw a young guy in way before he's ready to start which is bigger than some give it credit for.
2) #1 above won't do it alone so we could use a recruiting attraction for a FA QB like a playmaker/scoring threat the #1 overall that could help us significantly with in lassoing a yes tag of a veteran FA QB. This is bigger to me today than I allowed it to be previously while I'm reading and learning more about the top rated QBs in this draft. The QB I'm hearing to be is most ready is Rosen and I think he'll be there at #4 if our FO likes him.
3) IMO a part time RB like Sony Michel with only 9 receptions does not = a complete every down back who's equally dangerous in the passing game as he is at running the ball. 54 receptions in 13 games plus 18 TDs on the ground would have made Crow a keeper here instead of a FA we may lose. The last time we drafted Tim Couch at #1 overall - what did people bitch about? The only time we made the playoffs was in 2002 when we drafted a RB in round 1 who averaged over 100 yards rushing the final 6 weeks of his rookie year. You can't sell play action fakes if you can't run the ball so the pass pro struggles especially with younger QBs that tend hold onto the ball a littler longer. - Flugel
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