Kyle Dangerfield Orton Wins Job in Denver

Lumbergh

@shepwrite said:
I pull for Simms because he got body slammed almost to death and then Chuckie kicked him while he was down. Between Kyle Orton and Phil Simms, I honestly don't give a shit. Proclaiming one "simply much better" is kind of funny given neither's ever done anything.

Orton was the starter in Chicago and Simms was a third stringer mid-season acquisition in Tennessee with a history of mediocre play and a ruptured spleen.

You were the only person who thought Simms had a shot.

Based on your previous history of how you rate your QBs on hype and looks, and seeing as how Simms claim to fame is being a glamour boy from a name school with "pedigree", there is only explanation to why you thought Simms could beat him out.

P.S. memorizing passer ratings ain't gonna help you learn to assess QBs.

pl4tinum

@flugel said:
Didn't Chicago set a record for consecutive victories when Orton was JUST a rookie? I think they won 8 in a row and had a conference best record giving them homefield throughout the playoffs when Orton was MANAGING the game. THEN Chicago inserted Glassbones Grossman in their playoff matchup vrs Carolina and LOST to a team Orton beat during the regular season.
- Tom F.

Still, in my opinion, one of the worst coaching moves I have ever seen.

Orton may not have been spectacular but the team WON for him.

Riffer X

I'd take DA over Grossman in a heartbeat.

@shepwrite said:
He was better last year, but consider this: He had a passer rating of 107 in October, but finished at 79. In November and December, the second half of the season, he had a passer rating of about 68. He was not good at all down the stretch.

Orton suffered a high ankle sprain in early November. That's said to be the reason why his play declined.

Flugel

@shepwrite said:
We'll certainly find out, I guess.
Again... I liked Orton coming out of Purdue, then was disappointed with his conditioning, then thought he was full-on dreadful his rookie year in SO many ways.

Shep,

Here's the deal - you're expecting a ROOKIE QB in the WINDY city to sport 80 passer ratings before you deem it acceptable. Granted a 59 passer rating doesn't SOUND all that impressive BUT when he's NEVER putting his team too far behind like Cutler has been prone to do at times, - he's NEVER gonna get the prevent defenses yielding yardage for clock chewage.

Haven't you ever wondered why some guys that throw for miles and tons of TDs are always on the LOSING end of things?

Tim Couch and Jay Cutler threw up ridiculous stats when they were in the SEC. If you look at Couch's yardage and TDs vrs Florida - you'd think WOW - look what he did against a GREAT Florida team. The TROUBLE with that was Couch wasn't ready to BEGIN competing until Florida was up 28-7. Then the yardage and stats came in leaps and bounds but Florida was still scoring at a better rate so it was all junk. 35 points is NICE unless you've surrendered 63. Then it's called "not keeping up."

In Chicago, the Orton MANAGED offense wasn't getting down by 21 points when he led them to a conference best 13 wins in 2006. When you're setting a record for 8 consecutive wins on your way to attaining homefield advantage in your conference - that's good but as a ROOKIE? How does that suck? Seriously, I've never seen the Browns winning 13 regular season games since I've been alive so for me to debate with you that had to be one of the worst QB jobs ever turned in by an NFL QB is outrageous. A QB's job is to LEAD his team so they are in a position to WIN the game before the final second runs off the clock. BAD QBing puts the ball in Ray Lewis' hands and T Suggs' hands so the opposing defense scores 14 points on the QB. Bad QBing means you score 6 points when the Steelers only score 10 points. Bad QBing means you score 6 points when Indy only scores 10 points against you. And the reason I say BAD QBing is DA threw an INT right before half vrs Pitt when we were in the RED zone. And another time we were in Indy's red zone and DA's careless fumble became an Indy TD on a day their offense couldn't score a TD. Those are the KINDS of winable games where the rookie Orton wasn't giving his team the DA blunder. Say what you want but when that team gave up 10 points they scored enough to WIN the game consistently.

There's COUNTLESS ways to be a GOOD QB. One of the best ways is to NEVER shoot your team in the foot by being smart. ANOTHER way is to improve your passing rating EACH season so that 59 turns into 73 in the 2nd year and then 79.6 in the 3rd year. NOW, he gets to throw to Marshall and Royal which will be alot better than throwing to a bunch of guys past their primes in Chicago.

Furthermore, it was NOT Chicago firing the Head Coach Shep - it was DENVER. Cutler has this passer rating that excites you. And he's a TALENTED kid BUT when the game was on the line when his team was playing Buffalo to CLINCH a playoff spot - he threw a TERRIBLE INT into unfavorable numbers late in the game. It was all on him and the INT said he wasn't clutch enough to get his team to the playoffs. I already mentioned the FIRST time he played SD. Cutler turned the ball over with the game on the line and Hochuli's blunder gave the ball back to Denver.

If you're deeming QB the most important position on the field - do you want a leader with 21-12 on his resume or do you prefer 17-21 laced with countless excuses? I'm gonna take the 21-12 since football is MORE about winning and losing than it is about how pretty a guy throws a spiral. And you know what, I'll bet if you looked at wins per start in college between Orton and Cutler - Orton still comes out on top without even looking. Jeff George threw pretty spirals but if you surveyed tons of NFL execs - how many would call him a winner? Kyle Boller throws pretty spirals and so does Derek Anderson but you don't want either starting over Quinn here and neither do I.

- Tom F.

Flugel

@shepwrite said:
Tom, Tommy, Thomas, Thomatino... my man.
There is no way to spin a 59 passer rating into anything but suckage. It means you are throwing the ball really, really poorly.

The objective when throwing the ball is to complete passes and throw TDs, not INTs. Orton was just awful that year. Not one thing he did contributed to the team's success. They won in spite of him.

He was better last year. Not great, but better. And granted, he was a rookie in 2006. But there's no possible way to spin it any way but that the team won in spite of unbelievably bad quarterbacking.

If a rookie has a 76 passer rating and shows some growth throughout the year, that's a good thing. But 59? Uh-uh.

LOL! I gotta get the Camp Quinn President in shape for the season. I gotta go - Orton's agent is on the line asking me for Shep's phone number.

- Tom F.

Riffer X

Flugs is a sucker for guys with bad QB ratings. Well, except for DA that is.

Vincent Young come to mind?

Wasn't Flugs a big Dildofer fan too?

Flugel

@riffer-x said:
Flugs is a sucker for guys with bad QB ratings. Well, except for DA that is.
Vincent Young come to mind?

Wasn't Flugs a big Dildofer fan too?

HATED Trent Dilfer. Isn't he always the first guy I mention when I want to rip Opie a new ass for starting us out with Trent Dilfer and Charlie Frye on deck? Then we got stuck training Loverboy's Cinderella instead of the QB we drafted in round 1.

On Vince Young. I admit, I followed the lead of Dan Fouts (who just might know a thing or 2 about playing QB in the NFL) and agreed with his thinking that Vince Young was going to be an NFL star. Pete Carroll's NFL mind threw the most talented defense and some complex schemes at VY and came away with NO solutions. The next season I would watch Vince Young earn himself AFC Offensive Rookie of the Year after replacing an ineffective Kerry Collins in 2006. This was Kerry Collins' 2006 numbers that started Tenn out 0-4:

Year Team G QBRt Comp Att Pct Yds TD Int

2006 Tenn 4 42.3 42 90 46.7 549 1 6

VY would takeover a team that started 0-4 and was in a 14 game losing streak bridging 05 to 06 only to lead them to winning 8 of their last 11 games. 7 of those wins would erase 2nd half deficits. Doesn't assure me the kid lacks promise. In the SAME sense, did that season REALLY accurately paint the type of QB Kerry Collins is?

Life tells me things can change when a person's mind isn't in the right place. This defintely applies to NFL QBs whether it's Vince Young or Brett Favre. Tenn COULD have easily closed the book on Kerry Collins in 2006; but fate rewarded them for not making a premature conclusion. A team without many talented WRs in 2008 needed an experienced mind the accurate gun of Collins.

I'm not one that needs to follow the crowd or let popular opinion sway my takes. I say what I feel because that's who I am. NOBODY on this planet thinks Vince Young will ever start again. That's fine but I disagree with EVERY one of them. WHY? Let's just say I saw what happened the last time everyone in America told him he couldn't in the form of he wasn't good enough to be on the same field as USC. In the words of Dan Fouts he was fittingly summarized as "Invincible" when all the talking and predictions ended and the game was played. Consider this: If VY won 8 of 11 starts as a rookie and Tenn won 10 games in his second season - are we looking at a kid that loses frequently when he starts?

Some people NEED a kick in the pants. I think VY definitely needed to be confronted with the reality that LIFE isn't always easy. Maybe it's only fitting he's watching a guy like Kerry Collins, who's career as a starter has been pronounced dead on several occasions. The true test of man isn't what he does when everythings is going perfect. The true test of a man is how he bounces back from troubled times.

Relating this back to the Cleveland Browns, my FAVORITE QBs I grew up watching were Brian Sipe and Bernie Kosar. It wasn't their EXCELLENCE I appreciated most. It was HOW they consistently overcame serious perceived flaws in their game whether it was mechanics/delivery (BK) or arm strength (BS) or mobility ( BK) or height (BS) or whatever it was. Let's not forget, Mike Phipps was the GOLDEN BOY on draft day while Brian Sipe was a 13th round draft pick that wasn't supposed to make any NFL teams. POPULAR opinion said don't waste your time on Sipe. Did I learn something about popular opinion there?

Riff, that's what I LOVE most about football. Guys like Sipe and Byner aren't the popular opinion poster boys. They still haven't come up with an assessment at Indy for this type of player. They never will. When I come up with a TAKE on a guy - sometimes it stems from what I've seen out of him when everyone else in the world was telling him "he can't."

- Tom F. (It wasn't THAT long ago when football by Kerry Collins looked more like another Tom Collins Mix but he responded well to adversity when the masses predicted otherwise)

Flugel

@shepwrite said:
I love Thomas... but he does like ugly quarterbacks with ugly passer ratings. He has this huge Joe Kapp poster on his wall.

LOL! I never got my Beware the Ides of June warning.

- Tom F.

broncoinskinland

Sorry I am a little late on this one, it's been somewhat busy in Bronco Nation recently. Orton winning the starting job is not all it seems. This was a headline grabber to try and take some edge off the Marshall situation. It was working right up until Brandon elevated from a hold-out to announcing he wanted a trade. I think Orton is still miles ahead of Simms, but the coach made multiple statements to the effect of "Nothing is decided in June." There is still a quarterback competition, such as it is, in Denver. I never would have guessed I would be typing that 6 months ago, this off season sucks.

pl4tinum

@shepwrite said:
The definition of shooting your team in the foot is throwing a lot of interceptions on not many completions... which Orton did that year. It's just that the team didn't let the hole in its foot stop them.

5 of the 13 ints were in one game... so if you exclude the one game he was what, 9-8? he managed the games for the most part.

hammertime

Denver is shoring up for the #1 pick in 2010. How else can you explain the roster moves? McDaniels will lose half this team by mid season ala RAC.

broncoinskinland

@hammertime said:
Denver is shoring up for the #1 pick in 2010. How else can you explain the roster moves? McDaniels will lose half this team by mid season ala RAC.

I think we will still manage to squeak by the Raiders, Detroit, St Louis, and possibly one or two others. I am guessing a 3-5 win season. Pretty miserable fall since 8-5 last season, 1/2 game out from clinching the division with the #2 offense in the league.

Moreno behind our offensive line could be a fairly good running attack, particularly with Hillis as lead blocker and spelling Moreno on runs. McDaniels (depite being an absolute moron drafting, and in trade negotiations) is a very good play caller, and I have few doubts about him, at least ON the field. That should equate to a mediocre short passing game.

As for our defense, I think that simply having Nolan there improves us considerably on the fundamentals if nothing else. Trust me, no one is worse than Slowick. I do think there are a few positives from this off season, I just wish we didn't have to lose a pro-bowl QB, probably lose a pro-bowl WR, and possibly lose our pro-bowl center on the way to getting there.

P.S. Seattle gets our pick, we gave it to them for thier 2nd this year...we got Alphonso Smith who looks good, but is an undersized CB....this one still makes my eye twitch.

hammertime

@broncoinskinland said:
I think we will still manage to squeak by the Raiders, Detroit, St Louis, and possibly one or two others. I am guessing a 3-5 win season. Pretty miserable fall since 8-5 last season, 1/2 game out from clinching the division with the #2 offense in the league.
Moreno behind our offensive line could be a fairly good running attack, particularly with Hillis as lead blocker and spelling Moreno on runs. McDaniels (depite being an absolute moron drafting, and in trade negotiations) is a very good play caller, and I have few doubts about him, at least ON the field. That should equate to a mediocre short passing game.

As for our defense, I think that simply having Nolan there improves us considerably on the fundamentals if nothing else. Trust me, no one is worse than Slowick. I do think there are a few positives from this off season, I just wish we didn't have to lose a pro-bowl QB, probably lose a pro-bowl WR, and possibly lose our pro-bowl center on the way to getting there.

P.S. Seattle gets our pick, we gave it to them for thier 2nd this year...we got Alphonso Smith who looks good, but is an undersized CB....this one still makes my eye twitch.

Denver's fall from grace has been steep.

Makes Cleveland look good on paper so far.

broncoinskinland

@hammertime said:
Denver's fall from grace has been steep.
Makes Cleveland look good on paper so far.

Makes almost everyone look good on paper. Barring a miracle, our's will go down as one of the top 10 worst off seasons ever. I was pleasantly optomistic for you guys in the draft. I think pushing back for more picks made a lot of sense this year considering the draft class. I want to see how Mangini deals with the QB spot for you guys, but it could be a real step forward for your organization both in the near future, and long term. Congrats

broncoinskinland

@shepwrite said:
I thought the Broncos getting McDaniels and Nolan was absolute genius... then the shit started to fly.
Moreno's great. But losing Cutler, Marshall, and next year's almost certain Top Five pick while getting... KYLE ORTON and a corner? Cripes.

Agreed, Ayers and value for Marshall needs to be added to your list of returns though. Also it could be a vastly needed culture change. mcdaniels had pretty much nothing to do with the Marshall situation, and Cutler did cry his way out of Denver. McDaniels kicked the party off by looking at Cassle, but once it went beyond that a lot of it was out of his control. Personally, I would have told both players tough shit, you are a Bronco, you can be one on the field or on the bench, but you will be wearing Orange and Blue. They would have come around by the time the season started. If we are ditching divas to instill team spirit, and it pays dividends with a better TEAM effort, I am comfortable we will get more quality star power at some point.

hammertime

@broncoinskinland said:
Agreed, Ayers and value for Marshall needs to be added to your list of returns though. Also it could be a vastly needed culture change. mcdaniels had pretty much nothing to do with the Marshall situation, and Cutler did cry his way out of Denver. McDaniels kicked the party off by looking at Cassle, but once it went beyond that a lot of it was out of his control. Personally, I would have told both players tough shit, you are a Bronco, you can be one on the field or on the bench, but you will be wearing Orange and Blue. They would have come around by the time the season started. If we are ditching divas to instill team spirit, and it pays dividends with a better TEAM effort, I am comfortable we will get more quality star power at some point.

No offense but i hope its at the same pace its taken the Browns

Flugel

@shepwrite said:
Quarterbacks who manage a game are low risk, high-percentage guys. Orton was a low percentage high-risk guy.
I never get how we spin bad quarterbacking into game management.

A "game manager" would be Chad Pennington.

The ONLY thing getting spun here is that Orton was FORCED to start as a rookie while Chad Pennington threw 5 passes as a rookie in 2000 and 10 passes as a 2nd year player in 2001. I'll let you tell us how MUCH better Chad's 40% completion percentage as a wide eyed rookie looked and then you can explain how much CLOSER he looked to being ready when his completion percentage improved to 50% as a second year player. That said - you're really comparing a rookie to a 3rd year player when you break out the Chad comparisons.

Here you be - knock us out with Pennington's game management skills as a first and second year player:

Year Team G Att Comp Pct

2000 New York Jets 1 5 2 40.0

2001 New York Jets 2 20 10 50.0

I think you'll see below if you take away Orton's 3rd game (where he threw 5 INTs) and 13th game - he had some promising outings for a 1st year QB. He also had his days where a 5th round QB looked like a 5th round rookie:

Rk Week Date Tm Opp Tm Opp Cmp Att Yds TD Int Lng Y/A Cmp% Rate

19 1 Sun Sep 11, 2005 box L CHI @ WAS 7 9 15 28 141 0 1 22 5.0 53.6 52.8

20 2 Sun Sep 18, 2005 box W CHI DET 38 6 14 21 150 1 0 28 7.1 66.7 103.3

21 3 Sun Sep 25, 2005 box L CHI CIN 7 24 17 39 149 0 5 23 3.8 43.6 14.7

22 5 Sun Oct 9, 2005 box L CHI @ CLE 10 20 16 26 117 1 0 22 4.5 61.5 84.9

23 6 Sun Oct 16, 2005 box W CHI MIN 28 3 16 25 117 2 1 16 4.7 64.0 84.9

24 7 Sun Oct 23, 2005 box W CHI BAL 10 6 15 29 145 1 0 26 5.0 51.7 77.5

25 8 Sun Oct 30, 2005 box W CHI @ DET 19 13 17 31 230 1 0 54 7.4 54.8 89.4

26 9 Sun Nov 6, 2005 box W CHI @ NOR 20 17 12 26 137 1 2 33 5.3 46.2 43.3

27 10 Sun Nov 13, 2005 box W CHI SFO 17 9 8 13 67 0 1 31 5.2 61.5 42.8

28 11 Sun Nov 20, 2005 box W CHI CAR 13 3 15 26 136 1 1 18 5.2 57.7 68.7

29 12 Sun Nov 27, 2005 box W CHI @ TAM 13 10 14 28 134 1 1 41 4.8 50.0 60.7

30 13 Sun Dec 4, 2005 box W CHI GNB 19 7 6 17 68 0 1 34 4.0 35.3 23.7

31 14 Sun Dec 11, 2005 box L CHI @ PIT 9 21 17 35 207 0 0 43 5.9 48.6

32 15 Sun Dec 18, 2005 box W CHI ATL 16 3 2 10 12 0 0 12 1.2 20.0 39.6

33 17 Sun Jan 1, 2006 box L CHI @ MIN 10 34 6 14 59 0 0 21 4.2 42.9 55.4

Here's the DEAL on passer ratings though - Orton had an 84.9 passer rating against us and his team lost while he had a 23.7 passer rating vrs GB and his team won. They don't REALLY tell as much of the story as Shep WANTS them to. Anyone notice 8 wins in a row above? I also think the Bears WON the game Grossman had a 0 passer rating in 2007.

Orton is 21-12 as a starter and showing steady improvement in the passer ratings. In 08 his rating was 80.

Cutler is 17-21 and got a reputable Head Coach fired because he's NOT clutch.

- Tom F. (Shouldn't the 1st rd guy making double digit millions be the one sporting the 21-12 record?)

Flugel

@shepwrite said:
None of those are the issues, Tom. Pennington didn't play enough to be reasonably measured. I'm talking about the guy he became, which is someone worthy of the title "game manager," because he's efficient and not a big play guy. He completed 67% of his passes, had a 19/7 TD/INT ratio. Not big plays... but efficient.

If your memory serves you correct, the TEAM Pennington took over in NY went to the AFC Championship Game in Denver with a QB named Vinny Testaverde and a HC named Parcells. That was only 1 season before Chad started. Are you hinting this was a CRAPPY team to take over and MANAGE as a 3rd year QB?

Now, onto Jay Cutler. If your memory serves you right, the team Cutler took over had competed in the AFC Championship with Jake Plummer 1 shining season before Jay started. They haven't made the playoffs or won more than 8 games ever since. A defining moment was when he faced the Buffalo defense for the clinch and threw a game ending INT in their red zone. Guess what? Passer ratings didn't mean ski-waat when he couldn't WIN a winable key game for his team. Beating Buffalo would have eliminated SD from the playoffs and put Denver in so I saw Jay choking 2 weeks in a row.

In any event, you're not ALLOWING yourself to see a 3 year body of work while you don't hesitate to compare Orton as a rookie to QBs in their 3rd seasons. Understanding this, you're acting as if a rookie that went to a team that hasn't done much since 1985 is supposed to post up stellar numbers. All the Bears cared about was WINNING and minimizing the high INT days, which they confined to Kyle's 3rd start as a pro.

Traditionally, the Bears have NEVER put QBs in the Pro Bowl outside of Jim McMahon. Can you name another one they sent there since you've been alive? AGAIN, understanding geography, climate and tradition - I've called him Kyle DANGERFIELD Orton because there's alot of people that prefer pretty spirals to winning 21 of 33 starts.

I used the WRONG year this morning so the next part is an edit. Maybe your hate for Orton is because you were predicting great things for Rex Grossman. Here's Grossman's 4th year - when the team went to a Superbowl. The veteran 1st rounder Rex Grossman had the following piss poor outings with a Superbowl roster:

WEEK OPP RESULT CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA TD INT RAT

6 @ARI W 24-23 14 37 144 37.8 3.89 0 4 10.2

9 MIA L 31-13 18 42 210 42.9 5.00 1 3 36.8

12 @NE L 17-13 15 34 176 44.1 5.18 0 3 23.6

13 MIN W 23-13 6 19 34 31.6 1.79 0 3 1.3

17 GNB L 26-7 2 12 33 16.7 2.75 0 3 0.0

I don't think Orton was as bi-polar even as a rookie no matter how much you protest. He never went as low as 10.2, 0 and 1.3. Ironically, the Bears WON the games Grossman had a 10.2 because Matt Leinart was thorwing TD passes to the Bears defense. Again, I know you think passer ratings are the tell-all but the Bears WON the game when Orton had a 1.3 passer rating vrs Minn.

Anyway, I think the Bears Brass and players wanted LESS bi-polar and more consistency from ther QB so Orton easily won the starting job in 2008. In the process, he took his passer ratings to 80; because he's SEASONED now. You won't let yourself see this because you want to stay stuck on pause with Orton's worst outings as a wide eyed rookie. I NEVER called the kid Matt Ryan - I just used the name Dangerfield right? Winners win and in this case - he doesn't need to be overpaid.

- Tom F.