Kyle Dangerfield Orton Wins Job in Denver
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Sorry I am a little late on this one, it's been somewhat busy in Bronco Nation recently. Orton winning the starting job is not all it seems. This was a headline grabber to try and take some edge off the Marshall situation. It was working right up until Brandon elevated from a hold-out to announcing he wanted a trade. I think Orton is still miles ahead of Simms, but the coach made multiple statements to the effect of "Nothing is decided in June." There is still a quarterback competition, such as it is, in Denver. I never would have guessed I would be typing that 6 months ago, this off season sucks.
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@shepwrite said:
The definition of shooting your team in the foot is throwing a lot of interceptions on not many completions... which Orton did that year. It's just that the team didn't let the hole in its foot stop them.5 of the 13 ints were in one game... so if you exclude the one game he was what, 9-8? he managed the games for the most part.
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Denver is shoring up for the #1 pick in 2010. How else can you explain the roster moves? McDaniels will lose half this team by mid season ala RAC.
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Denver is shoring up for the #1 pick in 2010. How else can you explain the roster moves? McDaniels will lose half this team by mid season ala RAC.
Denver is shoring up for the #1 pick in 2010. How else can you explain the roster moves? McDaniels will lose half this team by mid season ala RAC.
I think we will still manage to squeak by the Raiders, Detroit, St Louis, and possibly one or two others. I am guessing a 3-5 win season. Pretty miserable fall since 8-5 last season, 1/2 game out from clinching the division with the #2 offense in the league.
Moreno behind our offensive line could be a fairly good running attack, particularly with Hillis as lead blocker and spelling Moreno on runs. McDaniels (depite being an absolute moron drafting, and in trade negotiations) is a very good play caller, and I have few doubts about him, at least ON the field. That should equate to a mediocre short passing game.
As for our defense, I think that simply having Nolan there improves us considerably on the fundamentals if nothing else. Trust me, no one is worse than Slowick. I do think there are a few positives from this off season, I just wish we didn't have to lose a pro-bowl QB, probably lose a pro-bowl WR, and possibly lose our pro-bowl center on the way to getting there.
P.S. Seattle gets our pick, we gave it to them for thier 2nd this year...we got Alphonso Smith who looks good, but is an undersized CB....this one still makes my eye twitch.
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Denver is shoring up for the #1 pick in 2010. How else can you explain the roster moves? McDaniels will lose half this team by mid season ala RAC.
I think we will still manage to squeak by the Raiders, Detroit, St Louis, and possibly one or two others. I am guessing a 3-5 win season. Pretty miserable fall since 8-5 last season, 1/2 game out from clinching the division with the #2 offense in the league.
Moreno behind our offensive line could be a fairly good running attack, particularly with Hillis as lead blocker and spelling Moreno on runs. McDaniels (depite being an absolute moron drafting, and in trade negotiations) is a very good play caller, and I have few doubts about him, at least ON the field. That should equate to a mediocre short passing game.
As for our defense, I think that simply having Nolan there improves us considerably on the fundamentals if nothing else. Trust me, no one is worse than Slowick. I do think there are a few positives from this off season, I just wish we didn't have to lose a pro-bowl QB, probably lose a pro-bowl WR, and possibly lose our pro-bowl center on the way to getting there.
P.S. Seattle gets our pick, we gave it to them for thier 2nd this year...we got Alphonso Smith who looks good, but is an undersized CB....this one still makes my eye twitch.
I think we will still manage to squeak by the Raiders, Detroit, St Louis, and possibly one or two others. I am guessing a 3-5 win season. Pretty miserable fall since 8-5 last season, 1/2 game out from clinching the division with the #2 offense in the league.
Moreno behind our offensive line could be a fairly good running attack, particularly with Hillis as lead blocker and spelling Moreno on runs. McDaniels (depite being an absolute moron drafting, and in trade negotiations) is a very good play caller, and I have few doubts about him, at least ON the field. That should equate to a mediocre short passing game.
As for our defense, I think that simply having Nolan there improves us considerably on the fundamentals if nothing else. Trust me, no one is worse than Slowick. I do think there are a few positives from this off season, I just wish we didn't have to lose a pro-bowl QB, probably lose a pro-bowl WR, and possibly lose our pro-bowl center on the way to getting there.
P.S. Seattle gets our pick, we gave it to them for thier 2nd this year...we got Alphonso Smith who looks good, but is an undersized CB....this one still makes my eye twitch.
Denver's fall from grace has been steep.
Makes Cleveland look good on paper so far.
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I think we will still manage to squeak by the Raiders, Detroit, St Louis, and possibly one or two others. I am guessing a 3-5 win season. Pretty miserable fall since 8-5 last season, 1/2 game out from clinching the division with the #2 offense in the league.
Moreno behind our offensive line could be a fairly good running attack, particularly with Hillis as lead blocker and spelling Moreno on runs. McDaniels (depite being an absolute moron drafting, and in trade negotiations) is a very good play caller, and I have few doubts about him, at least ON the field. That should equate to a mediocre short passing game.
As for our defense, I think that simply having Nolan there improves us considerably on the fundamentals if nothing else. Trust me, no one is worse than Slowick. I do think there are a few positives from this off season, I just wish we didn't have to lose a pro-bowl QB, probably lose a pro-bowl WR, and possibly lose our pro-bowl center on the way to getting there.
P.S. Seattle gets our pick, we gave it to them for thier 2nd this year...we got Alphonso Smith who looks good, but is an undersized CB....this one still makes my eye twitch.
Denver's fall from grace has been steep.
Makes Cleveland look good on paper so far.
Denver's fall from grace has been steep.
Makes Cleveland look good on paper so far.
Makes almost everyone look good on paper. Barring a miracle, our's will go down as one of the top 10 worst off seasons ever. I was pleasantly optomistic for you guys in the draft. I think pushing back for more picks made a lot of sense this year considering the draft class. I want to see how Mangini deals with the QB spot for you guys, but it could be a real step forward for your organization both in the near future, and long term. Congrats
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@shepwrite said:
I thought the Broncos getting McDaniels and Nolan was absolute genius... then the shit started to fly.Moreno's great. But losing Cutler, Marshall, and next year's almost certain Top Five pick while getting... KYLE ORTON and a corner? Cripes.
Agreed, Ayers and value for Marshall needs to be added to your list of returns though. Also it could be a vastly needed culture change. mcdaniels had pretty much nothing to do with the Marshall situation, and Cutler did cry his way out of Denver. McDaniels kicked the party off by looking at Cassle, but once it went beyond that a lot of it was out of his control. Personally, I would have told both players tough shit, you are a Bronco, you can be one on the field or on the bench, but you will be wearing Orange and Blue. They would have come around by the time the season started. If we are ditching divas to instill team spirit, and it pays dividends with a better TEAM effort, I am comfortable we will get more quality star power at some point.
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@shepwrite said:
I thought the Broncos getting McDaniels and Nolan was absolute genius... then the shit started to fly.Moreno's great. But losing Cutler, Marshall, and next year's almost certain Top Five pick while getting... KYLE ORTON and a corner? Cripes.
Agreed, Ayers and value for Marshall needs to be added to your list of returns though. Also it could be a vastly needed culture change. mcdaniels had pretty much nothing to do with the Marshall situation, and Cutler did cry his way out of Denver. McDaniels kicked the party off by looking at Cassle, but once it went beyond that a lot of it was out of his control. Personally, I would have told both players tough shit, you are a Bronco, you can be one on the field or on the bench, but you will be wearing Orange and Blue. They would have come around by the time the season started. If we are ditching divas to instill team spirit, and it pays dividends with a better TEAM effort, I am comfortable we will get more quality star power at some point.
Agreed, Ayers and value for Marshall needs to be added to your list of returns though. Also it could be a vastly needed culture change. mcdaniels had pretty much nothing to do with the Marshall situation, and Cutler did cry his way out of Denver. McDaniels kicked the party off by looking at Cassle, but once it went beyond that a lot of it was out of his control. Personally, I would have told both players tough shit, you are a Bronco, you can be one on the field or on the bench, but you will be wearing Orange and Blue. They would have come around by the time the season started. If we are ditching divas to instill team spirit, and it pays dividends with a better TEAM effort, I am comfortable we will get more quality star power at some point.
No offense but i hope its at the same pace its taken the Browns
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@shepwrite said:
Quarterbacks who manage a game are low risk, high-percentage guys. Orton was a low percentage high-risk guy.I never get how we spin bad quarterbacking into game management.
A "game manager" would be Chad Pennington.
The ONLY thing getting spun here is that Orton was FORCED to start as a rookie while Chad Pennington threw 5 passes as a rookie in 2000 and 10 passes as a 2nd year player in 2001. I'll let you tell us how MUCH better Chad's 40% completion percentage as a wide eyed rookie looked and then you can explain how much CLOSER he looked to being ready when his completion percentage improved to 50% as a second year player. That said - you're really comparing a rookie to a 3rd year player when you break out the Chad comparisons.
Here you be - knock us out with Pennington's game management skills as a first and second year player:
Year Team G Att Comp Pct
2000 New York Jets 1 5 2 40.0
2001 New York Jets 2 20 10 50.0
I think you'll see below if you take away Orton's 3rd game (where he threw 5 INTs) and 13th game - he had some promising outings for a 1st year QB. He also had his days where a 5th round QB looked like a 5th round rookie:
Rk Week Date Tm Opp Tm Opp Cmp Att Yds TD Int Lng Y/A Cmp% Rate
19 1 Sun Sep 11, 2005 box L CHI @ WAS 7 9 15 28 141 0 1 22 5.0 53.6 52.8
20 2 Sun Sep 18, 2005 box W CHI DET 38 6 14 21 150 1 0 28 7.1 66.7 103.3
21 3 Sun Sep 25, 2005 box L CHI CIN 7 24 17 39 149 0 5 23 3.8 43.6 14.7
22 5 Sun Oct 9, 2005 box L CHI @ CLE 10 20 16 26 117 1 0 22 4.5 61.5 84.9
23 6 Sun Oct 16, 2005 box W CHI MIN 28 3 16 25 117 2 1 16 4.7 64.0 84.9
24 7 Sun Oct 23, 2005 box W CHI BAL 10 6 15 29 145 1 0 26 5.0 51.7 77.5
25 8 Sun Oct 30, 2005 box W CHI @ DET 19 13 17 31 230 1 0 54 7.4 54.8 89.4
26 9 Sun Nov 6, 2005 box W CHI @ NOR 20 17 12 26 137 1 2 33 5.3 46.2 43.3
27 10 Sun Nov 13, 2005 box W CHI SFO 17 9 8 13 67 0 1 31 5.2 61.5 42.8
28 11 Sun Nov 20, 2005 box W CHI CAR 13 3 15 26 136 1 1 18 5.2 57.7 68.7
29 12 Sun Nov 27, 2005 box W CHI @ TAM 13 10 14 28 134 1 1 41 4.8 50.0 60.7
30 13 Sun Dec 4, 2005 box W CHI GNB 19 7 6 17 68 0 1 34 4.0 35.3 23.7
31 14 Sun Dec 11, 2005 box L CHI @ PIT 9 21 17 35 207 0 0 43 5.9 48.6
32 15 Sun Dec 18, 2005 box W CHI ATL 16 3 2 10 12 0 0 12 1.2 20.0 39.6
33 17 Sun Jan 1, 2006 box L CHI @ MIN 10 34 6 14 59 0 0 21 4.2 42.9 55.4
Here's the DEAL on passer ratings though - Orton had an 84.9 passer rating against us and his team lost while he had a 23.7 passer rating vrs GB and his team won. They don't REALLY tell as much of the story as Shep WANTS them to. Anyone notice 8 wins in a row above? I also think the Bears WON the game Grossman had a 0 passer rating in 2007.
Orton is 21-12 as a starter and showing steady improvement in the passer ratings. In 08 his rating was 80.
Cutler is 17-21 and got a reputable Head Coach fired because he's NOT clutch.
- Tom F. (Shouldn't the 1st rd guy making double digit millions be the one sporting the 21-12 record?)
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@shepwrite said:
None of those are the issues, Tom. Pennington didn't play enough to be reasonably measured. I'm talking about the guy he became, which is someone worthy of the title "game manager," because he's efficient and not a big play guy. He completed 67% of his passes, had a 19/7 TD/INT ratio. Not big plays... but efficient.If your memory serves you correct, the TEAM Pennington took over in NY went to the AFC Championship Game in Denver with a QB named Vinny Testaverde and a HC named Parcells. That was only 1 season before Chad started. Are you hinting this was a CRAPPY team to take over and MANAGE as a 3rd year QB?
Now, onto Jay Cutler. If your memory serves you right, the team Cutler took over had competed in the AFC Championship with Jake Plummer 1 shining season before Jay started. They haven't made the playoffs or won more than 8 games ever since. A defining moment was when he faced the Buffalo defense for the clinch and threw a game ending INT in their red zone. Guess what? Passer ratings didn't mean ski-waat when he couldn't WIN a winable key game for his team. Beating Buffalo would have eliminated SD from the playoffs and put Denver in so I saw Jay choking 2 weeks in a row.
In any event, you're not ALLOWING yourself to see a 3 year body of work while you don't hesitate to compare Orton as a rookie to QBs in their 3rd seasons. Understanding this, you're acting as if a rookie that went to a team that hasn't done much since 1985 is supposed to post up stellar numbers. All the Bears cared about was WINNING and minimizing the high INT days, which they confined to Kyle's 3rd start as a pro.
Traditionally, the Bears have NEVER put QBs in the Pro Bowl outside of Jim McMahon. Can you name another one they sent there since you've been alive? AGAIN, understanding geography, climate and tradition - I've called him Kyle DANGERFIELD Orton because there's alot of people that prefer pretty spirals to winning 21 of 33 starts.
I used the WRONG year this morning so the next part is an edit. Maybe your hate for Orton is because you were predicting great things for Rex Grossman. Here's Grossman's 4th year - when the team went to a Superbowl. The veteran 1st rounder Rex Grossman had the following piss poor outings with a Superbowl roster:
WEEK OPP RESULT CMP ATT YDS CMP% YPA TD INT RAT
6 @ARI W 24-23 14 37 144 37.8 3.89 0 4 10.2
9 MIA L 31-13 18 42 210 42.9 5.00 1 3 36.8
12 @NE L 17-13 15 34 176 44.1 5.18 0 3 23.6
13 MIN W 23-13 6 19 34 31.6 1.79 0 3 1.3
17 GNB L 26-7 2 12 33 16.7 2.75 0 3 0.0
I don't think Orton was as bi-polar even as a rookie no matter how much you protest. He never went as low as 10.2, 0 and 1.3. Ironically, the Bears WON the games Grossman had a 10.2 because Matt Leinart was thorwing TD passes to the Bears defense. Again, I know you think passer ratings are the tell-all but the Bears WON the game when Orton had a 1.3 passer rating vrs Minn.
Anyway, I think the Bears Brass and players wanted LESS bi-polar and more consistency from ther QB so Orton easily won the starting job in 2008. In the process, he took his passer ratings to 80; because he's SEASONED now. You won't let yourself see this because you want to stay stuck on pause with Orton's worst outings as a wide eyed rookie. I NEVER called the kid Matt Ryan - I just used the name Dangerfield right? Winners win and in this case - he doesn't need to be overpaid.
- Tom F.
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