Jamie Collins
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Every player takes off" plays. Watch JJ today... when the play is a toss away or a quick pass away, those plays he knows he cannot impact, he jogs to cover cut backs. And he will not rush hard every pass play... some by design... some by situation. Of course in JJ's case all is forgiven given the number of impact plays his saved energy produce. In Jamie's case??? I can certainly recall some, but it's much more a matter of whether any cost has been associated with his choices to conserve energy.
Collins has two years left on his current contract... $11.75 this coming season and $13.75 in 2020. We have $85.9 and 58.3 in cap space respectively over those two years. So why restructure? Money is not an issue given Jamie's timing. But there are questions we should ask.
The first question we should ask concerns his availability.
2018 was Jamie's first full season of his career since his rookie season... and then he only started half the games for the Pats. He's come close a couple times since, but has always missed at least one game. And this full season follows his career low appearance in six games in 2017. Nevertheless he's only failed to crack 100 tackles twice in a season since he's been a starter... 2017 and 2014 when he missed four games.
The second question is, "Does he freelance too much?"
This is the reason he is in CLE. While we can likely all recall plays where we saw this (or the broadcast analyst pointed it out) this is really a question only Gregg can answer and given his accumulated weekly grade-outs both he and Dorsey already know the answer...
... and remember that freelancing is not necessarily a bad thing if it results in a play made that otherwise would not have been made.
The second question is, "Does he freelance too much?"
This is the reason he is in CLE. While we can likely all recall plays where we saw this (or the broadcast analyst pointed it out) this is really a question only Gregg can answer and given his accumulated weekly grade-outs both he and Dorsey already know the answer...
... and remember that freelancing is not necessarily a bad thing if it results in a play made that otherwise would not have been made.
It is interesting that the whole “freelance” tag has followed him for several years and really stuck. Playing linebacker there is a lot of read and react situations. Do you continue towards the QB or tail the tight end who just released downfield? Stuff like that. So they all make a lot of split second instinctual decisions based on the play and who is supposed to be where and responsible for what.
So to me, “freelance” being used as a knock against him is just code for “makes wrong decisions.” But does he? At least more often than not? Or to some degree of unacceptableness?
I don’t really have the acumen to say one way or another, but his stats and playing time indicate that he’s basically one of our main dudes on defense. You don’t just replace that willy nilly without a better plan going forward.
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I beleive now that hue was fired cause dorsey had a sit down with baker and they figured out that relationship wasnt getting mended. You guys rem that awjward "u dont flinch" post game lockerroom speech from hue? I smelled a weird vibe between the two then and it stuck with me. It was like hue was trying to come up wuth something diplomatic to say cause the locjerroom was prob aware of the bad relationship between the two.
It was obvious in the first two episodes of 'Hard Knocks' that Mayfield wanted nothing to do with Hue.
It was obvious in the first two episodes of 'Hard Knocks' that Mayfield wanted nothing to do with Hue.
I think that scene where he is congratulating Baker for becoming the second team QB was the killer. You could see the wheels aturnin', "Second team!!?? WTF!!??" No real competitor wants the hear congrats for second team and Baker is the ultimate competitor.
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It was obvious in the first two episodes of 'Hard Knocks' that Mayfield wanted nothing to do with Hue.
I think that scene where he is congratulating Baker for becoming the second team QB was the killer. You could see the wheels aturnin', "Second team!!?? WTF!!??" No real competitor wants the hear congrats for second team and Baker is the ultimate competitor.
I think that scene where he is congratulating Baker for becoming the second team QB was the killer. You could see the wheels aturnin', "Second team!!?? WTF!!??" No real competitor wants the hear congrats for second team and Baker is the ultimate competitor.
agree, than rub some dirt on it by not getting a single preseason snap with the 1's. Clueless can shut his phone down the rest of the coach hirings
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It's not just Collins unfortunately.. it's every LB.
Collins was #4 and Schobert was #1 in missed tackles - amongst the entire league's linebackers. Schobert was only decent against the pass this year, his runstops were more of a drag-down 6 yards beyond LOS. And kirksey was a non-effort non-factor right after he signed a big contract.
Trade who you can, reduce if they'll take a reduction --- else just cut 'em. Cut 'em all and let the Giants overpay for them.
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
It's not just Collins unfortunately.. it's every LB.
Collins was #4 and Schobert was #1 in missed tackles - amongst the entire league's linebackers. Schobert was only decent against the pass this year, his runstops were more of a drag-down 6 yards beyond LOS. And kirksey was a non-effort non-factor right after he signed a big contract.
Trade who you can, reduce if they'll take a reduction --- else just cut 'em. Cut 'em all and let the Giants overpay for them.
It's not just Collins unfortunately.. it's every LB.
Collins was #4 and Schobert was #1 in missed tackles - amongst the entire league's linebackers. Schobert was only decent against the pass this year, his runstops were more of a drag-down 6 yards beyond LOS. And kirksey was a non-effort non-factor right after he signed a big contract.
Trade who you can, reduce if they'll take a reduction --- else just cut 'em. Cut 'em all and let the Giants overpay for them.
Kirksey got hurt the Chiefs game, and didn’t play the last 6-7 games. He’s gonna be back next year and do some good things
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It's not just Collins unfortunately.. it's every LB.
Collins was #4 and Schobert was #1 in missed tackles - amongst the entire league's linebackers. Schobert was only decent against the pass this year, his runstops were more of a drag-down 6 yards beyond LOS. And kirksey was a non-effort non-factor right after he signed a big contract.
Trade who you can, reduce if they'll take a reduction --- else just cut 'em. Cut 'em all and let the Giants overpay for them.
It's not just Collins unfortunately.. it's every LB.
Collins was #4 and Schobert was #1 in missed tackles - amongst the entire league's linebackers. Schobert was only decent against the pass this year, his runstops were more of a drag-down 6 yards beyond LOS. And kirksey was a non-effort non-factor right after he signed a big contract.
Trade who you can, reduce if they'll take a reduction --- else just cut 'em. Cut 'em all and let the Giants overpay for them.
Avery was great
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It's not just Collins unfortunately.. it's every LB.
Collins was #4 and Schobert was #1 in missed tackles - amongst the entire league's linebackers. Schobert was only decent against the pass this year, his runstops were more of a drag-down 6 yards beyond LOS. And kirksey was a non-effort non-factor right after he signed a big contract.
Trade who you can, reduce if they'll take a reduction --- else just cut 'em. Cut 'em all and let the Giants overpay for them.
Avery was great
Avery was great
Yea, if you ignore his next-to-last rating against the pass.
Kirksey got hurt the Chiefs game, and didn’t play the last 6-7 games. He’s gonna be back next year and do some good things
And was below league average [46.1 on PFF] before he got hurt. His season before was the aberration, not the rule. His actual value is nowhere near the contract he was given.
Put away the rose-colored glasses and evaluate the reality of the players we have. At no point do i not appreciate their dedication and sacrifice... they're just not good enough.
One long-term problem this organization has faced is actually drafting LB.. the last 3 LB's we drafted in the first round have all been busts [Craig Powell was the last 1st-round pick before we were Modelled, then Wimbley and Mingo]
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
It's not just Collins unfortunately.. it's every LB.
Collins was #4 and Schobert was #1 in missed tackles - amongst the entire league's linebackers. Schobert was only decent against the pass this year, his runstops were more of a drag-down 6 yards beyond LOS. And kirksey was a non-effort non-factor right after he signed a big contract.
Trade who you can, reduce if they'll take a reduction --- else just cut 'em. Cut 'em all and let the Giants overpay for them.
It's not just Collins unfortunately.. it's every LB.
Collins was #4 and Schobert was #1 in missed tackles - amongst the entire league's linebackers. Schobert was only decent against the pass this year, his runstops were more of a drag-down 6 yards beyond LOS. And kirksey was a non-effort non-factor right after he signed a big contract.
Trade who you can, reduce if they'll take a reduction --- else just cut 'em. Cut 'em all and let the Giants overpay for them.
Yep and Pluto says we are going LB heavy in this draft/FA.
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I can’t remember how many times I’ve seen a center or nose guard take plays off. Lazy bastards!
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If you can bring in better, ship him, if you can't, keep him.
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Avery was great
Yea, if you ignore his next-to-last rating against the pass.
Kirksey got hurt the Chiefs game, and didn’t play the last 6-7 games. He’s gonna be back next year and do some good things
And was below league average [46.1 on PFF] before he got hurt. His season before was the aberration, not the rule. His actual value is nowhere near the contract he was given.
Put away the rose-colored glasses and evaluate the reality of the players we have. At no point do i not appreciate their dedication and sacrifice... they're just not good enough.
One long-term problem this organization has faced is actually drafting LB.. the last 3 LB's we drafted in the first round have all been busts [Craig Powell was the last 1st-round pick before we were Modelled, then Wimbley and Mingo]
Yea, if you ignore his next-to-last rating against the pass.
And was below league average [46.1 on PFF] before he got hurt. His season before was the aberration, not the rule. His actual value is nowhere near the contract he was given.
Put away the rose-colored glasses and evaluate the reality of the players we have. At no point do i not appreciate their dedication and sacrifice... they're just not good enough.
I’m not opposed to acquiring a stud LB through draft or FA but currently I feel the DT opposite to Larry Ogunjobi is the main priority.
What I don’t think a lot of people don’t get about Kirksey and his contact is that it seems potential based.
4 years: 6 mil/year, 8 mil, 10 mil, 10.5 mil. He is a physically gifted player, and it has shown throughout his career. By the time he’s making that money, he’ll be making plays. He has been a Brown his whole career.
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Yea, if you ignore his next-to-last rating against the pass.
And was below league average [46.1 on PFF] before he got hurt. His season before was the aberration, not the rule. His actual value is nowhere near the contract he was given.
Put away the rose-colored glasses and evaluate the reality of the players we have. At no point do i not appreciate their dedication and sacrifice... they're just not good enough.
I’m not opposed to acquiring a stud LB through draft or FA but currently I feel the DT opposite to Larry Ogunjobi is the main priority.
What I don’t think a lot of people don’t get about Kirksey and his contact is that it seems potential based.
4 years: 6 mil/year, 8 mil, 10 mil, 10.5 mil. He is a physically gifted player, and it has shown throughout his career. By the time he’s making that money, he’ll be making plays. He has been a Brown his whole career.
I’m not opposed to acquiring a stud LB through draft or FA but currently I feel the DT opposite to Larry Ogunjobi is the main priority.
What I don’t think a lot of people don’t get about Kirksey and his contact is that it seems potential based.
4 years: 6 mil/year, 8 mil, 10 mil, 10.5 mil. He is a physically gifted player, and it has shown throughout his career. By the time he’s making that money, he’ll be making plays. He has been a Brown his whole career.
All that said if White from LSU is still there @ #17, we've got to take him. The guy is the next MLB dominator. And I hope we seriously consider moving up to take him if we have not done anything in FA.
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Good is the key word in your statement. Good players shouldn't count almost $12 million against the cap, at least IMO. If he's down to restructure that's awesome but I'd have zero qualms cutting the cord. A group with Joe, Kirksey, Avery, insert FA and a top round pick would be just fine with me.
Isn’t he the only super bowl vet we have?
I was upset with his effort at times but Collins is a talented/experienced LB and we need those.
Isn’t he the only super bowl vet we have?
I was upset with his effort at times but Collins is a talented/experienced LB and we need those.
Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.
Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry
Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.
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I can’t remember how many times I’ve seen a center or nose guard take plays off. Lazy bastards!
I can’t remember how many times I’ve seen a center or nose guard take plays off. Lazy bastards!
You might if you ever watched the line play instead of following the ball.
I suppose you don't remember ever seeing an NT/DT trot off the field when it's 3rd and long either...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Isn’t he the only super bowl vet we have?
I was upset with his effort at times but Collins is a talented/experienced LB and we need those.
Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.
Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry
Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.
Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.
Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry
Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.
We paid what we needed to pay at the time to keep a quality player in CLE. Remember we traded for him in a contract year and we not anywhere near "good" at the time... not really the way to judge him.
As for your comps, five rush artists and two MLBs, kinda apples and oranges there. He's never been given any of those roles on a full time basis. Had he been would he have shown as brightly? Doubtful as he doesn't seem to have the first step those guys do, but not impossible to imagine.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
That he wouldn't play hard after getting paid. I think there's some truth to that. Collins had games where he was everywhere, and others I didn't hear his name. There are other problems with him, too. For one, he was number 4 in the LEAGUE in missed tackles (according to PFF. Schobert was 1st. Yeesh). The other thing is missed big plays. Jamie Collins dropped two pick-6 interceptions, one was the easiest you've ever seen. I forget the exact games, but those were EXACTLY the plays our money was supposed to buy. Game-changing plays. We didn't get those.
Dorsey couldn't rebuild the worst team ever in 1 year, but he was pretty close.
Somebody made a good point the other day. If we had a top 5 kicker, we're probably 10-6. Not having a quality kicker changed how we played.
I can see through his “lack of” effort. He got traded to the F’n Browns guys. Let’s take off those Brownie/orange shades.
He was playing soft to avoid injury on a “bad” team. He played hard in the ATL game when the team started to figure out: “hey, we don’t suck”
one pick was the raiders game, he alligator armed a huge int(tough play) and the other he dropped a Driskell pick 6 at Cinci for sure. He doesn’t have great hands.
Dont get it confused, the roster was semi built with a #1 and #4 overall picks, Dorsey is a smart business man by coming to Cleveland to work his magic.
If we had a kicker(Greg Joseph has a future) we’d still have Hue.. so I’m ok with the end result....
I can see through his “lack of” effort. He got traded to the F’n Browns guys. Let’s take off those Brownie/orange shades.
He was playing soft to avoid injury on a “bad” team. He played hard in the ATL game when the team started to figure out: “hey, we don’t suck”
one pick was the raiders game, he alligator armed a huge int(tough play) and the other he dropped a Driskell pick 6 at Cinci for sure. He doesn’t have great hands.
Dont get it confused, the roster was semi built with a #1 and #4 overall picks, Dorsey is a smart business man by coming to Cleveland to work his magic.
If we had a kicker(Greg Joseph has a future) we’d still have Hue.. so I’m ok with the end result....
Came to this thread late, but that's the same way I feel. He looked amazing vs the Falcons, and played well every game after it.
I'm not crazy about him but agree with others, there's no rush to dump him until the decisions on coaching staff are made.
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I can’t remember how many times I’ve seen a center or nose guard take plays off. Lazy bastards!
You might if you ever watched the line play instead of following the ball.
I suppose you don't remember ever seeing an NT/DT trot off the field when it's 3rd and long either...
You might if you ever watched the line play instead of following the ball.
I suppose you don't remember ever seeing an NT/DT trot off the field when it's 3rd and long either...
I’ll ask. I know a long time pro NG. QBs must be good at faking it too. Taking plays off in the pros? It happens. Then they’re ex pros. But I will ask oh arrogant all knowing one
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Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.
Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry
Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.
We paid what we needed to pay at the time to keep a quality player in CLE. Remember we traded for him in a contract year and we not anywhere near "good" at the time... not really the way to judge him.
As for your comps, five rush artists and two MLBs, kinda apples and oranges there. He's never been given any of those roles on a full time basis. Had he been would he have shown as brightly? Doubtful as he doesn't seem to have the first step those guys do, but not impossible to imagine.
We paid what we needed to pay at the time to keep a quality player in CLE. Remember we traded for him in a contract year and we not anywhere near "good" at the time... not really the way to judge him.
As for your comps, five rush artists and two MLBs, kinda apples and oranges there. He's never been given any of those roles on a full time basis. Had he been would he have shown as brightly? Doubtful as he doesn't seem to have the first step those guys do, but not impossible to imagine.
Sure, at the time I wasn't mad at the contract and completely agree. Only way we were going to get ANY FA's the last five years was to overpay them greatly.
I just use that data to suggest that going into next season, his rate of pay IMO doesn't equate to similar (admittedly somewhat different) players at the position. Point is, it's fair to say he's getting paid at a superstar (or very near) level and I'm not sure he's played close to that at all. Seeing he's also hit the 30 year old mark and as I've described the guys we know we're gonna have to pay, I don't see how his contract gets justified.
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Isn’t he the only super bowl vet we have?
I was upset with his effort at times but Collins is a talented/experienced LB and we need those.
Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.
Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry
Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.
Eh, I'm not sure how much that matters really.
Let me put it a different way. Going into the season Collins was the 7th highest paid player at the position. The guys above him? Von Miller, Justin Houston, Melvin Ingram, Robert Quinn, and Clay Matthews. The two guys below him are Kuechly and Nick Perry
Do you (you being figurative here) really see Jamie Collins in that group of people? I sure as hell don't. As noted, with guys we're going to need to pay in the current 4 year salary cap period, paying this dude almost $12 million for decent, but not great, play doesn't add up. I'd be very surprised to see him on his current deal next year.
I compared your list to an NFL LB stats page, and it’s kind of a tough call to determine who should make what based on them. Guys like Von Miller and Matthews have flashier sack totals, but literally less than half the total tackle numbers that Collins has. Sort of begs the question what is a tackle worth? Or a sack? Or an interception?
Both Schobert and Collins were in the top 30, mostly based on tackles, but both had some complimentary sacks and such in there too.
They both played a whole lotta snaps, so their total tackle numbers should be high. Another indicator that he is basically one of our main dudes on defense. Affording his contract at this point in time is not an issue. There simply is no sense of urgency to get rid of or restructure his contract.
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