Robert Kraft charged with solicitation
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You make a valid point, but you seem to be set in a view that everyone should know everything about what goes on in a place there are a patron of.
That isn't to say that he is innocent, but to let everything come out before you label him as Joe 2.0. I'll bet you have been, and I have been in a place that sells something illegal "behind the scenes." Say a gas station that sells drugs with a "code word."
I'm not digging into the history of this place, but it would be inconceivable that every massage for every customer was something shady,
If you're going to debate people, you should dig into the history of the place before you challenge people that have researched it. It'll answer some of your questions better than someone you just think has a premature agenda against Robert Kraft.
If you're going to debate people, you should dig into the history of the place before you challenge people that have researched it. It'll answer some of your questions better than someone you just think has a premature agenda against Robert Kraft.
No, not really. I'm saying I am not going to see how long they have been open, etc. That really has nothing to do with my point.
Just answer the question I put in one of these posts, what would be your reaction if it were Baker Mayfield, Joe Thomas, Lebron James, or even someone close to you? If you would have the same reaction, then you aren't one that is the issue with being premature. If you would have a different reaction, then what does that tell you?
Again, I haven't once said he is 100% innocent. My point is within hours of this coming out that he was being vilified, cast judgement upon. And not just for having services done (which is possible, but the brain in me says he could get same thing privately), but for actually being a co conspirator and being part of trafficking.
Just look at some of the things said in this thread.
So since I have not looked up how long the establishment has been open, let's look at a few hypotheticals. Say it has been open a few months, not a lot of time to have a lot of reviews. Been open for years, if this practice had been going that long, don't you think something would have come out by now?
As for he had been there before, the ONLY way these illegal places can function is by having a front as something legal. Which means, that real massages happen there, just like the store where you can buy illegal drugs but they sell legal things as well.
There are other things as well. My entire point isn't that Kraft is this great man, I don't know him, its that there is a possibility that he was involved in nothing nefarious, yet he is being talked about as a monster. And was all this vilification done after a long investigation, and where everything has come out, no it was hrs after the news broke.
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If you're going to debate people, you should dig into the history of the place before you challenge people that have researched it. It'll answer some of your questions better than someone you just think has a premature agenda against Robert Kraft.
No, not really. I'm saying I am not going to see how long they have been open, etc. That really has nothing to do with my point.
Just answer the question I put in one of these posts, what would be your reaction if it were Baker Mayfield, Joe Thomas, Lebron James, or even someone close to you? If you would have the same reaction, then you aren't one that is the issue with being premature. If you would have a different reaction, then what does that tell you?
Again, I haven't once said he is 100% innocent. My point is within hours of this coming out that he was being vilified, cast judgement upon. And not just for having services done (which is possible, but the brain in me says he could get same thing privately), but for actually being a co conspirator and being part of trafficking.
Just look at some of the things said in this thread.
So since I have not looked up how long the establishment has been open, let's look at a few hypotheticals. Say it has been open a few months, not a lot of time to have a lot of reviews. Been open for years, if this practice had been going that long, don't you think something would have come out by now?
As for he had been there before, the ONLY way these illegal places can function is by having a front as something legal. Which means, that real massages happen there, just like the store where you can buy illegal drugs but they sell legal things as well.
There are other things as well. My entire point isn't that Kraft is this great man, I don't know him, its that there is a possibility that he was involved in nothing nefarious, yet he is being talked about as a monster. And was all this vilification done after a long investigation, and where everything has come out, no it was hrs after the news broke.
No, not really. I'm saying I am not going to see how long they have been open, etc. That really has nothing to do with my point.
Just answer the question I put in one of these posts, what would be your reaction if it were Baker Mayfield, Joe Thomas, Lebron James, or even someone close to you? If you would have the same reaction, then you aren't one that is the issue with being premature. If you would have a different reaction, then what does that tell you?
speaking only for myself in my younger days every band member that got married most of the road crew and a lot of our friends would participate in a bachelor party which often included a visit to a house of prostitution. Actually by the time we got there the guest of honor was invariably too drunk to complete the bargain we made. Money did change hands for services promised. I'm not a personal fan of strip clubs but I know a lot of guys who are and frequent them on occasion. I have no idea the life situations of any of the females involved and it never occurred to any of us to ask. But I will assume that every guy on this board even if he has not personally participated in any like this, he knows someone who has. Has human trafficking ever been part of the conversation with any of you guys before you entered a cat house, spoke to a pimp or stood outside a strip bar? Just asking.
Again, I haven't once said he is 100% innocent. My point is within hours of this coming out that he was being vilified, cast judgement upon. And not just for having services done (which is possible, but the brain in me says he could get same thing privately), but for actually being a co conspirator and being part of trafficking.
Just look at some of the things said in this thread.
So since I have not looked up how long the establishment has been open, let's look at a few hypotheticals. Say it has been open a few months, not a lot of time to have a lot of reviews. Been open for years, if this practice had been going that long, don't you think something would have come out by now?
As for he had been there before, the ONLY way these illegal places can function is by having a front as something legal. Which means, that real massages happen there, just like the store where you can buy illegal drugs but they sell legal things as well.
There are other things as well. My entire point isn't that Kraft is this great man, I don't know him, its that there is a possibility that he was involved in nothing nefarious, yet he is being talked about as a monster. And was all this vilification done after a long investigation, and where everything has come out, no it was hrs after the news broke.
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I have only been tangentially following this story......but....as a lawyer....I kind of have questions about the focus of this investigation. (and what I have to say has nothing to do with Robert Kraft....unless in fact he knew about and was involved in the sex trafficking and essential "slavery" of the women involved):
Was the focus to stop the "sex slave ring"? Or merely to catch the Johns who were patronizing the place?
I heard that they arrested anywhere from 25 ot 200 hundred "patrons".
I also hear that they have video tape of these guys doing what they..and the women did?
So, I have to ask: IF their target were the operators of the facility...and IF their goal was to "rescue" if you will the women being held against their will....then how the hell did they get videotape?
It seems that the police almost would have have to had permission from the proprietors to do the filming....unless it was somehow done surreptitiously. Should not the proprietors have been the main people they were after?
And if they were wanting to "free" the women.....why would they allow things to go on through hundreds of videos.....and why would the investigators allow these women to undergo hundreds of supposedly "forced or involuntary" sex acts before they did something about it?
Why, upon having some indication that it was indeed a "sex slave" operation, would the police not have immediately gone in and questioned the proprietors and questioned the women, and close the place down.....instead of allowing what I heard was about 200 people undertake the "services" being provided by this place.
It reeks of something being rotten in Denmark.....It looks possibly that they were just trying to catch Johns....and not bust up an operation where these women were being held against their will.
These would be some of the questions that Kraft's lawyers could likely bring up (not that that would necessarily be a defense to paying for a hooker).
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If they were sex slaves, why were they not saved immediately?
What is more important, freeing slaves or seeing how many people show up for a blowjob?
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
If they were sex slaves, why were they not saved immediately?
What is more important, freeing slaves or seeing how many people show up for a blowjob?
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If they were sex slaves, why were they not saved immediately?
What is more important, freeing slaves or seeing how many people show up for a blowjob?
If they were sex slaves, why were they not saved immediately?
What is more important, freeing slaves or seeing how many people show up for a blowjob?
And how long had this been going on under the full knowledge of the authorities and to what purpose?
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
You make a valid point, but you seem to be set in a view that everyone should know everything about what goes on in a place there are a patron of.
That isn't to say that he is innocent, but to let everything come out before you label him as Joe 2.0. I'll bet you have been, and I have been in a place that sells something illegal "behind the scenes." Say a gas station that sells drugs with a "code word."
I'm not digging into the history of this place, but it would be inconceivable that every massage for every customer was something shady,
If you're going to debate people, you should dig into the history of the place before you challenge people that have researched it. It'll answer some of your questions better than someone you just think has a premature agenda against Robert Kraft.
If you're going to debate people, you should dig into the history of the place before you challenge people that have researched it. It'll answer some of your questions better than someone you just think has a premature agenda against Robert Kraft.
I'll wait until some of that research is verified Flugs...
If there was suspected sex trafficking going on- why wait months, instead of shutting down the places immediately? So they could bust some high profile Johns?
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Well I guess now it's official.
WSS
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Well I guess now it's official.
WSS
Well I guess now it's official.
WSS
What TMZ would pay for that video.
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If you're going to debate people, you should dig into the history of the place before you challenge people that have researched it. It'll answer some of your questions better than someone you just think has a premature agenda against Robert Kraft.
I'll wait until some of that research is verified Flugs...
If there was suspected sex trafficking going on- why wait months, instead of shutting down the places immediately? So they could bust some high profile Johns?
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I have only been tangentially following this story......but....as a lawyer....I kind of have questions about the focus of this investigation. (and what I have to say has nothing to do with Robert Kraft....unless in fact he knew about and was involved in the sex trafficking and essential "slavery" of the women involved):
Was the focus to stop the "sex slave ring"? Or merely to catch the Johns who were patronizing the place?
I heard that they arrested anywhere from 25 ot 200 hundred "patrons".
I also hear that they have video tape of these guys doing what they..and the women did?
So, I have to ask: IF their target were the operators of the facility...and IF their goal was to "rescue" if you will the women being held against their will....then how the hell did they get videotape?
It seems that the police almost would have have to had permission from the proprietors to do the filming....unless it was somehow done surreptitiously. Should not the proprietors have been the main people they were after?
And if they were wanting to "free" the women.....why would they allow things to go on through hundreds of videos.....and why would the investigators allow these women to undergo hundreds of supposedly "forced or involuntary" sex acts before they did something about it?
Why, upon having some indication that it was indeed a "sex slave" operation, would the police not have immediately gone in and questioned the proprietors and questioned the women, and close the place down.....instead of allowing what I heard was about 200 people undertake the "services" being provided by this place.
It reeks of something being rotten in Denmark.....It looks possibly that they were just trying to catch Johns....and not bust up an operation where these women were being held against their will.
These would be some of the questions that Kraft's lawyers could likely bring up (not that that would necessarily be a defense to paying for a hooker).
I have only been tangentially following this story......but....as a lawyer....I kind of have questions about the focus of this investigation. (and what I have to say has nothing to do with Robert Kraft....unless in fact he knew about and was involved in the sex trafficking and essential "slavery" of the women involved):
Was the focus to stop the "sex slave ring"? Or merely to catch the Johns who were patronizing the place?
I heard that they arrested anywhere from 25 ot 200 hundred "patrons".
I also hear that they have video tape of these guys doing what they..and the women did?
So, I have to ask: IF their target were the operators of the facility...and IF their goal was to "rescue" if you will the women being held against their will....then how the hell did they get videotape?
It seems that the police almost would have have to had permission from the proprietors to do the filming....unless it was somehow done surreptitiously. Should not the proprietors have been the main people they were after?
And if they were wanting to "free" the women.....why would they allow things to go on through hundreds of videos.....and why would the investigators allow these women to undergo hundreds of supposedly "forced or involuntary" sex acts before they did something about it?
Why, upon having some indication that it was indeed a "sex slave" operation, would the police not have immediately gone in and questioned the proprietors and questioned the women, and close the place down.....instead of allowing what I heard was about 200 people undertake the "services" being provided by this place.
It reeks of something being rotten in Denmark.....It looks possibly that they were just trying to catch Johns....and not bust up an operation where these women were being held against their will.
These would be some of the questions that Kraft's lawyers could likely bring up (not that that would necessarily be a defense to paying for a hooker).
Without going into even more about Kraft, as I still think my point is correct (and that is even with saying he could be guilty), what you are saying is very interesting. If the agenda was to stop trafficking, then the months long sting just doesn't look good.
From an article I read (isnt it amazing guys, I can read), it sounds like it's been going on for months, and after allegedly having evidence they were allowed to use hidden cameras. I also read that they were interviewing patrons after they came out.
Even if all the reports are true, something just doesn't add up. It doesn't make sense that a criminal organization would be that oblivious and not have protection for themselves. And if what some have suggested (no not just on here) that just assumed that people going to this place had to be involved with illegal things, well then if everyone doing that then undercover agents would have participated as well.
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And how long had this been going on under the full knowledge of the authorities and to what purpose?
WSS
Even if a few hours it was to long. Seems the attitude was "she has already licked one lollypop, what's another 20?"
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If you're going to debate people, you should dig into the history of the place before you challenge people that have researched it. It'll answer some of your questions better than someone you just think has a premature agenda against Robert Kraft.
I'll wait until some of that research is verified Flugs...
If there was suspected sex trafficking going on- why wait months, instead of shutting down the places immediately? So they could bust some high profile Johns?
I'll wait until some of that research is verified Flugs...
If there was suspected sex trafficking going on- why wait months, instead of shutting down the places immediately? So they could bust some high profile Johns?
Why wait? Great question Larry; but it is Florida where the most recent state elections still necessitated recounts.
That said. The place was being investigated for trafficking and prostitution. Now there's a bunch of arrests for soliciting prostitution thanks in large to cameras helping to expedite proof of sexual activity. My guess is the suspected trafficking stuff takes longer to research fully and prove. For example, some of the Asian Employees were sleeping/living there which seems like something pretty important to dig deeper on in investigations such as why? how long? etc... Then, it's how did they get there and where are they from and even how old are they. Also, what keeps them there? I'm sure there's way more to research.
Busting 25 high profile Johns might not make you and others happy Larry - but it might open enough blind eyes to what and where human trafficking can go. I KEEP hearing human trafficking is a huge problem and yet I've rarely read/heard about any arrests for it anywhere in this country for such a big alleged problem. Even in this case, the people that are getting arrested are getting arrested for solicitation of prostitution (not trafficking). They have to peel off layers to get to the trafficking and who's responsible.
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I'll wait until some of that research is verified Flugs...
If there was suspected sex trafficking going on- why wait months, instead of shutting down the places immediately? So they could bust some high profile Johns?
Why wait? Great question Larry; but it is Florida where the most recent state elections still necessitated recounts.
That said. The place was being investigated for trafficking and prostitution. Now there's a bunch of arrests for soliciting prostitution thanks in large to cameras helping to expedite proof of sexual activity. My guess is the suspected trafficking stuff takes longer to research fully and prove. For example, some of the Asian Employees were sleeping/living there which seems like something pretty important to dig deeper on in investigations such as why? how long? etc... Then, it's how did they get there and where are they from and even how old are they. Also, what keeps them there? I'm sure there's way more to research.
Busting 25 high profile Johns might not make you and others happy Larry - but it might open enough blind eyes to what and where human trafficking can go. I KEEP hearing human trafficking is a huge problem and yet I've rarely read/heard about any arrests for it anywhere in this country for such a big alleged problem. Even in this case, the people that are getting arrested are getting arrested for solicitation of prostitution (not trafficking). They have to peel off layers to get to the trafficking and who's responsible.
Why wait? Great question Larry; but it is Florida where the most recent state elections still necessitated recounts.
That said. The place was being investigated for trafficking and prostitution. Now there's a bunch of arrests for soliciting prostitution thanks in large to cameras helping to expedite proof of sexual activity. My guess is the suspected trafficking stuff takes longer to research fully and prove. For example, some of the Asian Employees were sleeping/living there which seems like something pretty important to dig deeper on in investigations such as why? how long? etc... Then, it's how did they get there and where are they from and even how old are they. Also, what keeps them there? I'm sure there's way more to research.
Busting 25 high profile Johns might not make you and others happy Larry - but it might open enough blind eyes to what and where human trafficking can go. I KEEP hearing human trafficking is a huge problem and yet I've rarely read/heard about any arrests for it anywhere in this country for such a big alleged problem. Even in this case, the people that are getting arrested are getting arrested for solicitation of prostitution (not trafficking). They have to peel off layers to get to the trafficking and who's responsible.
Well...that is why I question the focus of the investigation. It sounds almost like it is just being given superficial treatment. They seem to have gone for the quick easy collars: grab a few of the Johns. The hard stuff....the important stuff...the stuff you delineate that needs to be done in this investigation into human trafficking seems perhaps to have been given short shrift. With some high profile arrests of a few Johns....the actual traffickers will see that and close up and move out before the authorities are able to get after them.
To use an analogy....it seems that they have busted a few guys for possession of a few meth tablets.....but have failed to go after the dealers/the manufacturers, the head of the cartel. (But at least in that venue...they HAVE gone after the head of one cartel...El Chapo, it seems) Do they have a bead on identifying and arresting the El Chapo of the sex traffic trade? Seems, perhaps not. (of course, we don't know....but it seems that way)
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Why wait? Great question Larry; but it is Florida where the most recent state elections still necessitated recounts.
That said. The place was being investigated for trafficking and prostitution. Now there's a bunch of arrests for soliciting prostitution thanks in large to cameras helping to expedite proof of sexual activity. My guess is the suspected trafficking stuff takes longer to research fully and prove. For example, some of the Asian Employees were sleeping/living there which seems like something pretty important to dig deeper on in investigations such as why? how long? etc... Then, it's how did they get there and where are they from and even how old are they. Also, what keeps them there? I'm sure there's way more to research.
Busting 25 high profile Johns might not make you and others happy Larry - but it might open enough blind eyes to what and where human trafficking can go. I KEEP hearing human trafficking is a huge problem and yet I've rarely read/heard about any arrests for it anywhere in this country for such a big alleged problem. Even in this case, the people that are getting arrested are getting arrested for solicitation of prostitution (not trafficking). They have to peel off layers to get to the trafficking and who's responsible.
Well...that is why I question the focus of the investigation. It sounds almost like it is just being given superficial treatment. They seem to have gone for the quick easy collars: grab a few of the Johns. The hard stuff....the important stuff...the stuff you delineate that needs to be done in this investigation into human trafficking seems perhaps to have been given short shrift. With some high profile arrests of a few Johns....the actual traffickers will see that and close up and move out before the authorities are able to get after them.
To use an analogy....it seems that they have busted a few guys for possession of a few meth tablets.....but have failed to go after the dealers/the manufacturers, the head of the cartel. (But at least in that venue...they HAVE gone after the head of one cartel...El Chapo, it seems) Do they have a bead on identifying and arresting the El Chapo of the sex traffic trade? Seems, perhaps not. (of course, we don't know....but it seems that way)
Well...that is why I question the focus of the investigation. It sounds almost like it is just being given superficial treatment. They seem to have gone for the quick easy collars: grab a few of the Johns. The hard stuff....the important stuff...the stuff you delineate that needs to be done in this investigation into human trafficking seems perhaps to have been given short shrift. With some high profile arrests of a few Johns....the actual traffickers will see that and close up and move out before the authorities are able to get after them.
To use an analogy....it seems that they have busted a few guys for possession of a few meth tablets.....but have failed to go after the dealers/the manufacturers, the head of the cartel. (But at least in that venue...they HAVE gone after the head of one cartel...El Chapo, it seems) Do they have a bead on identifying and arresting the El Chapo of the sex traffic trade? Seems, perhaps not. (of course, we don't know....but it seems that way)
When does it become "human trafficking" and not a prostitute\ pimp situation? Hmmm, the under cover guys slips the girls an extra hundred and tells them you didn't see me plant that camera? Somebody had to know they were being watched.
Not saying this isn't what Flugels says it is, or human trafficking doesn't exist in the USA, but the way this was handled is mighty odd.
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Well...that is why I question the focus of the investigation. It sounds almost like it is just being given superficial treatment. They seem to have gone for the quick easy collars: grab a few of the Johns. The hard stuff....the important stuff...the stuff you delineate that needs to be done in this investigation into human trafficking seems perhaps to have been given short shrift. With some high profile arrests of a few Johns....the actual traffickers will see that and close up and move out before the authorities are able to get after them.
To use an analogy....it seems that they have busted a few guys for possession of a few meth tablets.....but have failed to go after the dealers/the manufacturers, the head of the cartel. (But at least in that venue...they HAVE gone after the head of one cartel...El Chapo, it seems) Do they have a bead on identifying and arresting the El Chapo of the sex traffic trade? Seems, perhaps not. (of course, we don't know....but it seems that way)
When does it become "human trafficking" and not a prostitute\ pimp situation? Hmmm, the under cover guys slips the girls an extra hundred and tells them you didn't see me plant that camera? Somebody had to know they were being watched.
Not saying this isn't what Flugels says it is, or human trafficking doesn't exist in the USA, but the way this was handled is mighty odd.
When does it become "human trafficking" and not a prostitute\ pimp situation? Hmmm, the under cover guys slips the girls an extra hundred and tells them you didn't see me plant that camera?
Not saying this isn't what Flugels says it is, or human trafficking doesn't exist in the USA, but the way this was handled is mighty odd.
I think the basic thing is to say: have they been brought in against their will? Are they doing what they are doing essentially against their will? Are they free to come and go (no pun intended) as they choose? Can they quit and go home...or go wherever they want at any time? Lots of people have jobs they may not like or want to do...but keep them for the money they can make. But they are not slaves to it. The real question is: are these girls/women slaves to it?
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oh and of course choc has all the answers wow so tell us choco since you come off as someone who hangs out with the rich and famous please tell us of your life experiences of how billionaires spend their time are they petting puppies or smashing their skulls in cause they can get away with it,tell us choco
couldnt have missed the point anymore...when someone says, "i dont think kraft would have...." it typically means "i dont think I would have..."
unless you have a billion dollars, how can you even fathom how one would act? i dont know what i would do with that much money, but i dont have any problems being honest with myself. maybe i'd grab a kilo, go bang high end girls, -buy a football team and enjoy the limelight. perhaps, if i was inclined, maybe id want a constant supply of foreign girls that i can use at any time. frankly, none of us know anything about kraft other than whats in the media, so how about refraining from "knowing" what another person would do?
couldnt have missed the point anymore...when someone says, "i dont think kraft would have...." it typically means "i dont think I would have..."
unless you have a billion dollars, how can you even fathom how one would act? i dont know what i would do with that much money, but i dont have any problems being honest with myself. maybe i'd grab a kilo, go bang high end girls, -buy a football team and enjoy the limelight. perhaps, if i was inclined, maybe id want a constant supply of foreign girls that i can use at any time. frankly, none of us know anything about kraft other than whats in the media, so how about refraining from "knowing" what another person would do?
grabbing a kilo and banging girls would seem like the logical thing to do
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couldnt have missed the point anymore...when someone says, "i dont think kraft would have...." it typically means "i dont think I would have..."
unless you have a billion dollars, how can you even fathom how one would act? i dont know what i would do with that much money, but i dont have any problems being honest with myself. maybe i'd grab a kilo, go bang high end girls, -buy a football team and enjoy the limelight. perhaps, if i was inclined, maybe id want a constant supply of foreign girls that i can use at any time. frankly, none of us know anything about kraft other than whats in the media, so how about refraining from "knowing" what another person would do?
grabbing a kilo and banging girls would seem like the logical thing to do
grabbing a kilo and banging girls would seem like the logical thing to do
Seriously, you got to spend it on something right?
WSS
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The women he solicited were citizens....one was the spa manager. They both had valid state drivers liscrnses as well as massage liscenses. Just decent hardworking murican girls getting caught up in this bullshit, let em work i say !!!!
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Best part of that arrticle was "strong video evidence" in bold. Lmfao....kraft got his own peepee tape now
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