For sanity sake, let's list Dorsey's mistakes...
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When they were unsalvageable, he’d cut his own: Callaway, Whitehead and Corbett. Productive players who weren’t his guys were inactivated or dispensed of otherwise.
Like Tretter, Bitonio, Ogunjobi, Garrett, Schobert, Kirksey (who didn't play much but would have started both Dorsey years)...
You make Dorsey out to be different than EVERY new GM who stocks his team with HIS guys. You don't think that's going to happen in the next season or two?
Like Tretter, Bitonio, Ogunjobi, Garrett, Schobert, Kirksey (who didn't play much but would have started both Dorsey years)...
You make Dorsey out to be different than EVERY new GM who stocks his team with HIS guys. You don't think that's going to happen in the next season or two?
He was head of football operations his mandate is to build a team not create holes just to bring his guys in which happened all too often. This is an unfortunate trait of many GMs but it’s still a flaw.
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Not many here were giving short odds of Kirk and Schobert being here for 2020. And Ogun did not exactly capitalize on his opportunity in 2019.
Meanwhile back at the thread...
Dorsey brought in both Robinson and Hubbard... and stuck with them for two years.
And how many OGs did he bring in to replace the failed Corbett replacement of Zeitler? 3? 4?
... so there's that.
The man had a major blind spot when it came to the OL. Same was true in KC
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
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Dorsey's downfall was hiring Fred Kitchens as HC. I believe If he would have kept the same coaches from the year before with Greg Williams as HC the Browns would have made the play offs this year and we would not be in this position. Williams brought discipline to the table which was sorely lacking this season with Kitchens.
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Dorsey's downfall was hiring Fred Kitchens as HC. I believe If he would have kept the same coaches from the year before with Greg Williams as HC the Browns would have made the play offs this year and we would not be in this position. Williams brought discipline to the table which was sorely lacking this season with Kitchens.
Dorsey's downfall was hiring Fred Kitchens as HC. I believe If he would have kept the same coaches from the year before with Greg Williams as HC the Browns would have made the play offs this year and we would not be in this position. Williams brought discipline to the table which was sorely lacking this season with Kitchens.
I think you are correct but like everybody else I thought Freddy was something of a wunderkind and would be snapped up immediately without the promotion by another team.
I don't agree with these conclusions, or anyone's, concerning Baker and the ever-present chip on his shoulder. I personally like that attitude like I did with Namath and Favre and even Jim McMahon.
Still a great deal of the players the article point to as being suspect are young it should be improving the second and third year. Might they grow into their roles as well as kitchens?
Of course it's too late now so the next regime will get a fresh 18 months to get to the Superbowl before they are fired.
WSS
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Dorsey's downfall was hiring Fred Kitchens as HC. I believe If he would have kept the same coaches from the year before with Greg Williams as HC the Browns would have made the play offs this year and we would not be in this position. Williams brought discipline to the table which was sorely lacking this season with Kitchens.
I think you are correct but like everybody else I thought Freddy was something of a wunderkind and would be snapped up immediately without the promotion by another team.
I don't agree with these conclusions, or anyone's, concerning Baker and the ever-present chip on his shoulder. I personally like that attitude like I did with Namath and Favre and even Jim McMahon.
Still a great deal of the players the article point to as being suspect are young it should be improving the second and third year. Might they grow into their roles as well as kitchens?
Of course it's too late now so the next regime will get a fresh 18 months to get to the Superbowl before they are fired.
WSS
I think you are correct but like everybody else I thought Freddy was something of a wunderkind and would be snapped up immediately without the promotion by another team.
I don't agree with these conclusions, or anyone's, concerning Baker and the ever-present chip on his shoulder. I personally like that attitude like I did with Namath and Favre and even Jim McMahon.
Still a great deal of the players the article point to as being suspect are young it should be improving the second and third year. Might they grow into their roles as well as kitchens?
WSS
The Browns had a nice turnaround last season after Hue Jackson was fired and Greg Williams took over as interm HC. I thought Williams earned the HC position this season with how the team responded after he was the HC last season.
I'm not sure about Kitchens growing into a HC. Even with giving him a learning curve as a rookie HC the team didn't improve by the end of the season but seemed to be going backwards. I think Baker will be better with a better offensive line that can give him time to throw.
Dorsey did bring in some good talent at the skill positions but not so well with the offensive line.
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Not many here were giving short odds of Kirk and Schobert being here for 2020. And Ogun did not exactly capitalize on his opportunity in 2019.
Meanwhile back at the thread...
Dorsey brought in both Robinson and Hubbard... and stuck with them for two years.
And how many OGs did he bring in to replace the failed Corbett replacement of Zeitler? 3? 4?
... so there's that.
The man had a major blind spot when it came to the OL. Same was true in KC
Not many here were giving short odds of Kirk and Schobert being here for 2020. And Ogun did not exactly capitalize on his opportunity in 2019.
Meanwhile back at the thread...
Dorsey brought in both Robinson and Hubbard... and stuck with them for two years.
And how many OGs did he bring in to replace the failed Corbett replacement of Zeitler? 3? 4?
... so there's that.
The man (Dorsey) had a major blind spot when it came to the OL. Same was true in KC
No kidding.... Reading the article Steve posted, besides fixing the OL, it sure looks like there's just too many holes in the roster elsewhere to be realistically fixed in just one off season.
http://www.clevsworld.com/2019/12/the-browns-2019-failures-rest-most.html?m=1
WSS
Article of the year Steve- it should be required reading for any Browns fan. I've posted elsewhere it may look like hell to the rest of the NFL (same old Browns being Brownsian), but Haslam made the correct call demanding Dorsey relinquish final say on a lot of issues... Here's a couple nuggets from the article...
"Similarly, adopting John Dorsey’s message, Freddie was empowered to stubbornly ignore the mistakes he made week after week in attempting to make Baker, OBJ and Jarvis the focus of the offense instead of what the Browns did the best – run the football."
I said elsewhere Haslam's mantra for the front office is "plays well with others" Dorsey couldn't...
"It is time for the Browns to understand what Kansas City figured out a few years ago. A good organization does not need John Dorsey. It needs grown men who can put their egos aside and work together toward a common goal."
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Another nice article London.
What I fear though from the article....
"Paul DePodesta running the head coaching search could ultimately result in another bad head coaching hire for this team, but it won't be because of his past as a baseball executive."
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Not many here were giving short odds of Kirk and Schobert being here for 2020. And Ogun did not exactly capitalize on his opportunity in 2019.
Meanwhile back at the thread...
Dorsey brought in both Robinson and Hubbard... and stuck with them for two years.
And how many OGs did he bring in to replace the failed Corbett replacement of Zeitler? 3? 4?
... so there's that.
The man (Dorsey) had a major blind spot when it came to the OL. Same was true in KC
No kidding.... Reading the article Steve posted, besides fixing the OL, it sure looks like there's just too many holes in the roster elsewhere to be realistically fixed in just one off season.
http://www.clevsworld.com/2019/12/the-browns-2019-failures-rest-most.html?m=1
WSS
Article of the year Steve- it should be required reading for any Browns fan. I've posted elsewhere it may look like hell to the rest of the NFL (same old Browns being Brownsian), but Haslam made the correct call demanding Dorsey relinquish final say on a lot of issues... Here's a couple nuggets from the article...
"Similarly, adopting John Dorsey’s message, Freddie was empowered to stubbornly ignore the mistakes he made week after week in attempting to make Baker, OBJ and Jarvis the focus of the offense instead of what the Browns did the best – run the football."
I said elsewhere Haslam's mantra for the front office is "plays well with others" Dorsey couldn't...
"It is time for the Browns to understand what Kansas City figured out a few years ago. A good organization does not need John Dorsey. It needs grown men who can put their egos aside and work together toward a common goal."
No kidding.... Reading the article Steve posted, besides fixing the OL, it sure looks like there's just too many holes in the roster elsewhere to be realistically fixed in just one off season.
Article of the year Steve- it should be required reading for any Browns fan. I've posted elsewhere it may look like hell to the rest of the NFL (same old Browns being Brownsian), but Haslam made the correct call demanding Dorsey relinquish final say on a lot of issues... Here's a couple nuggets from the article...
"Similarly, adopting John Dorsey’s message, Freddie was empowered to stubbornly ignore the mistakes he made week after week in attempting to make Baker, OBJ and Jarvis the focus of the offense instead of what the Browns did the best – run the football."
I said elsewhere Haslam's mantra for the front office is "plays well with others" Dorsey couldn't...
"It is time for the Browns to understand what Kansas City figured out a few years ago. A good organization does not need John Dorsey. It needs grown men who can put their egos aside and work together toward a common goal."
That's what I thought when I gave it it's own thread, I didn't mean to clutter the place up but I think it covered almost everything. In a reasonable and even-handed way with a lack of sugar coating.
WSS
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Well, this thread has done some good for our sanity. WC Steve's article sure pointed out a lot of stuff that we saw but may have been obscured by the trees (can't see the forest for the trees). In fairness to Dorsey, he DID see the OL tackle problems and brought in some guys for it....and the OLine play DID in fact improve over the latter half of 2018....but 2019 did not demonstrate that improvement.
...and many of us DID NOT like that he let Darren Fells go, so I'm glad to see that the article supported our feelings.
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I absolutely love that you keep posting Pete Smith's garbage.
I actually know this tool. He's a local JV high school assistant coach (or was) who fancies himself as a football guru. Like you with Sashi, Pete had to be put on suicide watch when the Browns fired Joe Banner. He's a dork who never came close to actually playing a second of football who desperately wants the DePodestas, Sashi Browns and Joe Banners of the world to be relevant to validate his dream of being something in football, and the John Dorseys of the world are keeping him from it.
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I absolutely love that you keep posting Pete Smith's garbage.
I actually know this tool. He's a local JV high school assistant coach (or was) who fancies himself as a football guru. Like you with Sashi, Pete had to be put on suicide watch when the Browns fired Joe Banner. He's a dork who never came close to actually playing a second of football who desperately wants the DePodestas, Sashi Browns and Joe Banners of the world to be relevant to validate his dream of being something in football, and the John Dorseys of the world are keeping him from it.
I absolutely love that you keep posting Pete Smith's garbage.
I actually know this tool. He's a local JV high school assistant coach (or was) who fancies himself as a football guru. Like you with Sashi, Pete had to be put on suicide watch when the Browns fired Joe Banner. He's a dork who never came close to actually playing a second of football who desperately wants the DePodestas, Sashi Browns and Joe Banners of the world to be relevant to validate his dream of being something in football, and the John Dorseys of the world are keeping him from it.
He has a decent gig writing for SI whereas you spend most of your day throwing insults at someone thousands of miles away via the Internet
I’m not sure he’s the tool when sat in a room with you to be honest Dutchie
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I absolutely love that you keep posting Pete Smith's garbage.
I actually know this tool. He's a local JV high school assistant coach (or was) who fancies himself as a football guru. Like you with Sashi, Pete had to be put on suicide watch when the Browns fired Joe Banner. He's a dork who never came close to actually playing a second of football who desperately wants the DePodestas, Sashi Browns and Joe Banners of the world to be relevant to validate his dream of being something in football, and the John Dorseys of the world are keeping him from it.
He has a decent gig writing for SI whereas you spend most of your day throwing insults at someone thousands of miles away via the Internet
I’m not sure he’s the tool when sat in a room with you to be honest Dutchie
He has a decent gig writing for SI whereas you spend most of your day throwing insults at someone thousands of miles away via the Internet
I’m not sure he’s the tool when sat in a room with you to be honest Dutchie
When you threatened to quit this board and stormed off when you were called out for being a whiny bitch, were your tears extra salty?
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I absolutely love that you keep posting Pete Smith's garbage.
I actually know this tool. He's a local JV high school assistant coach (or was) who fancies himself as a football guru. Like you with Sashi, Pete had to be put on suicide watch when the Browns fired Joe Banner. He's a dork who never came close to actually playing a second of football who desperately wants the DePodestas, Sashi Browns and Joe Banners of the world to be relevant to validate his dream of being something in football, and the John Dorseys of the world are keeping him from it.
I absolutely love that you keep posting Pete Smith's garbage.
I actually know this tool. He's a local JV high school assistant coach (or was) who fancies himself as a football guru. Like you with Sashi, Pete had to be put on suicide watch when the Browns fired Joe Banner. He's a dork who never came close to actually playing a second of football who desperately wants the DePodestas, Sashi Browns and Joe Banners of the world to be relevant to validate his dream of being something in football, and the John Dorseys of the world are keeping him from it.
Besides hating Landry (and Chad Thomas) his takes are usually pretty good plus they're good enough for Sports Illustrated to pay him for them.
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I absolutely love that you keep posting Pete Smith's garbage.
I actually know this tool. He's a local JV high school assistant coach (or was) who fancies himself as a football guru. Like you with Sashi, Pete had to be put on suicide watch when the Browns fired Joe Banner. He's a dork who never came close to actually playing a second of football who desperately wants the DePodestas, Sashi Browns and Joe Banners of the world to be relevant to validate his dream of being something in football, and the John Dorseys of the world are keeping him from it.
Besides hating Landry (and Chad Thomas) his takes are usually pretty good plus they're good enough for Sports Illustrated to pay him for them.
Besides hating Landry (and Chad Thomas) his takes are usually pretty good plus they're good enough for Sports Illustrated to pay him for them.
I specifically loved how he kept telling us for years how Barkevious Mingo was a great pick for the Browns, and Mangini's first draft was genius because he refused to ever admit he was wrong. His love for Joe Banner was PoG/Saquon creepy... ?
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Besides hating Landry (and Chad Thomas) his takes are usually pretty good plus they're good enough for Sports Illustrated to pay him for them.
I specifically loved how he kept telling us for years how Barkevious Mingo was a great pick for the Browns, and Mangini's first draft was genius because he refused to ever admit he was wrong. His love for Joe Banner was PoG/Saquon creepy... ?
I specifically loved how he kept telling us for years how Barkevious Mingo was a great pick for the Browns, and Mangini's first draft was genius because he refused to ever admit he was wrong. His love for Joe Banner was PoG/Saquon creepy... ?
Doesn't Mingo have a SB ring with the Patriots? We're victims of innumerable scheme changes that hasn't enhanced our players strengths.
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