For sanity sake, let's list Dorsey's mistakes...
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John Dorsey is known for his high graded draft talent. Has good connections with most players agents for insights.. 1) Dorsey's largest issue was Acting the part "of the smartest man in the room" in any event. His confidence was smug & almost rude at times (senior bowl/Combine). Add Jimmy Haslams tude in & you got to wonder how it became Dee & Jimmy Haslam so quickly.. Let's be honest, On the inside, Dorsey could spin the media without giving a direct answer to any of them.. 2) On the Outside.. Dorsey seemed ok with Freddie & his players being smug & playing with his same cockiness..I felt first hint of this when JD met every FA with the new Freddie's slogan "If you don't wear B & O you don't matter".. After..3) Each game week seemed to have a drama target that would show up about 3 days prior to the game. Coach nor GM would shut it down. Add this to a 4) GM & coach that approved wrong visors, wrong cleats, wrong pant lenght & special watch needs. With over 100 yellow flags.
Yep! I may have been The Dorse biggest fan. But every man has his faults in this business. I do wish John Dorsey good luck in his next position...and As we all know, The good guys all get better without The Haslam's...
HaPPy NeW Year!! ? ??
Good therapeutic post idea Orion. Citing Gumby’s post because it’s pure gold.
I’ll pitch in cutting Reiter at the tail end of camp last year. I think he woulda been a fit for our OLine issues this year.
I’ll pitch in cutting Reiter at the tail end of camp last year.
Yeah, I thought he helped us when he played. But as I recall, he didn't play long because he got hurt.
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
As Tour2ma stated elsewhere on this forum: Inability to play nice with others that also ended his tenure in KC.
Myguyism, if he didn't bring you into the building your days were numbered no matter how talented you were or could contribute to the scheme. Shelton should've been retained for run blocking, Ogunjobi is more of a rotational NT and is terrible against the run. News is now leaking that the inactives list was also dictated by him which explains Njoku, Higgins and Avery's absences.
Dorsey is also someone who didn't hesitate to get rid of HIS guys, if they weren't working out, which blows a bit of a hole in your theory.
Dorsey is also someone who didn't hesitate to get rid of HIS guys, if they weren't working out, which blows a bit of a hole in your theory.
When they were unsalvageable, he’d cut his own: Callaway, Whitehead and Corbett. Productive players who weren’t his guys were inactivated or dispensed of otherwise.
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I’ll pitch in cutting Reiter at the tail end of camp last year.
Yeah, I thought he helped us when he played. But as I recall, he didn't play long because he got hurt.
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Dorsey is also someone who didn't hesitate to get rid of HIS guys, if they weren't working out, which blows a bit of a hole in your theory.
When they were unsalvageable, he’d cut his own: Callaway, Whitehead and Corbett. Productive players who weren’t his guys were inactivated or dispensed of otherwise.
When they were unsalvageable, he’d cut his own: Callaway, Whitehead and Corbett. Productive players who weren’t his guys were inactivated or dispensed of otherwise.
Like Tretter, Bitonio, Ogunjobi, Garrett, Schobert, Kirksey (who didn't play much but would have started both Dorsey years)...
You make Dorsey out to be different than EVERY new GM who stocks his team with HIS guys. You don't think that's going to happen in the next season or two?
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Dorsey is also someone who didn't hesitate to get rid of HIS guys, if they weren't working out, which blows a bit of a hole in your theory.
When they were unsalvageable, he’d cut his own: Callaway, Whitehead and Corbett. Productive players who weren’t his guys were inactivated or dispensed of otherwise.
When they were unsalvageable, he’d cut his own: Callaway, Whitehead and Corbett. Productive players who weren’t his guys were inactivated or dispensed of otherwise.
This is why we're screwed. The new gm will get rid of a bunch of good players just because they're not HIS guys. The only one safe is Garrett. If Baker is shipped out or they draft his replacement and undermine him, it will be 10x as dumb as firing Dorsey
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Not sure where he'd have helped us this season, but in any case cutting anyone who then immediately becomes a two-year starter for the claiming team and then gets a contract extension does not display the best of judgement.
He played guard too. I’m an unabashed Tretter fan, so not advocating for a change at Center.
He played guard too. I’m an unabashed Tretter fan, so not advocating for a change at Center.
Everyone here should be an unabashed Tretter fan. Dude has played his heart out for us, usually hurt, and has played well.
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He played guard too. I’m an unabashed Tretter fan, so not advocating for a change at Center.
Everyone here should be an unabashed Tretter fan. Dude has played his heart out for us, usually hurt, and has played well.
Everyone here should be an unabashed Tretter fan. Dude has played his heart out for us, usually hurt, and has played well.
AND, something that doesn't seem to matter much, he's a good guy.
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When they were unsalvageable, he’d cut his own: Callaway, Whitehead and Corbett. Productive players who weren’t his guys were inactivated or dispensed of otherwise.
Like Tretter, Bitonio, Ogunjobi, Garrett, Schobert, Kirksey (who didn't play much but would have started both Dorsey years)...
You make Dorsey out to be different than EVERY new GM who stocks his team with HIS guys. You don't think that's going to happen in the next season or two?
Like Tretter, Bitonio, Ogunjobi, Garrett, Schobert, Kirksey (who didn't play much but would have started both Dorsey years)...
You make Dorsey out to be different than EVERY new GM who stocks his team with HIS guys. You don't think that's going to happen in the next season or two?
He was head of football operations his mandate is to build a team not create holes just to bring his guys in which happened all too often. This is an unfortunate trait of many GMs but it’s still a flaw.
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Not many here were giving short odds of Kirk and Schobert being here for 2020. And Ogun did not exactly capitalize on his opportunity in 2019.
Meanwhile back at the thread...
Dorsey brought in both Robinson and Hubbard... and stuck with them for two years.
And how many OGs did he bring in to replace the failed Corbett replacement of Zeitler? 3? 4?
... so there's that.
The man had a major blind spot when it came to the OL. Same was true in KC
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
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Dorsey's downfall was hiring Fred Kitchens as HC. I believe If he would have kept the same coaches from the year before with Greg Williams as HC the Browns would have made the play offs this year and we would not be in this position. Williams brought discipline to the table which was sorely lacking this season with Kitchens.
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Dorsey's downfall was hiring Fred Kitchens as HC. I believe If he would have kept the same coaches from the year before with Greg Williams as HC the Browns would have made the play offs this year and we would not be in this position. Williams brought discipline to the table which was sorely lacking this season with Kitchens.
Dorsey's downfall was hiring Fred Kitchens as HC. I believe If he would have kept the same coaches from the year before with Greg Williams as HC the Browns would have made the play offs this year and we would not be in this position. Williams brought discipline to the table which was sorely lacking this season with Kitchens.
I think you are correct but like everybody else I thought Freddy was something of a wunderkind and would be snapped up immediately without the promotion by another team.
I don't agree with these conclusions, or anyone's, concerning Baker and the ever-present chip on his shoulder. I personally like that attitude like I did with Namath and Favre and even Jim McMahon.
Still a great deal of the players the article point to as being suspect are young it should be improving the second and third year. Might they grow into their roles as well as kitchens?
Of course it's too late now so the next regime will get a fresh 18 months to get to the Superbowl before they are fired.
WSS
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Dorsey's downfall was hiring Fred Kitchens as HC. I believe If he would have kept the same coaches from the year before with Greg Williams as HC the Browns would have made the play offs this year and we would not be in this position. Williams brought discipline to the table which was sorely lacking this season with Kitchens.
I think you are correct but like everybody else I thought Freddy was something of a wunderkind and would be snapped up immediately without the promotion by another team.
I don't agree with these conclusions, or anyone's, concerning Baker and the ever-present chip on his shoulder. I personally like that attitude like I did with Namath and Favre and even Jim McMahon.
Still a great deal of the players the article point to as being suspect are young it should be improving the second and third year. Might they grow into their roles as well as kitchens?
Of course it's too late now so the next regime will get a fresh 18 months to get to the Superbowl before they are fired.
WSS
I think you are correct but like everybody else I thought Freddy was something of a wunderkind and would be snapped up immediately without the promotion by another team.
I don't agree with these conclusions, or anyone's, concerning Baker and the ever-present chip on his shoulder. I personally like that attitude like I did with Namath and Favre and even Jim McMahon.
Still a great deal of the players the article point to as being suspect are young it should be improving the second and third year. Might they grow into their roles as well as kitchens?
WSS
The Browns had a nice turnaround last season after Hue Jackson was fired and Greg Williams took over as interm HC. I thought Williams earned the HC position this season with how the team responded after he was the HC last season.
I'm not sure about Kitchens growing into a HC. Even with giving him a learning curve as a rookie HC the team didn't improve by the end of the season but seemed to be going backwards. I think Baker will be better with a better offensive line that can give him time to throw.
Dorsey did bring in some good talent at the skill positions but not so well with the offensive line.
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Not many here were giving short odds of Kirk and Schobert being here for 2020. And Ogun did not exactly capitalize on his opportunity in 2019.
Meanwhile back at the thread...
Dorsey brought in both Robinson and Hubbard... and stuck with them for two years.
And how many OGs did he bring in to replace the failed Corbett replacement of Zeitler? 3? 4?
... so there's that.
The man had a major blind spot when it came to the OL. Same was true in KC
Not many here were giving short odds of Kirk and Schobert being here for 2020. And Ogun did not exactly capitalize on his opportunity in 2019.
Meanwhile back at the thread...
Dorsey brought in both Robinson and Hubbard... and stuck with them for two years.
And how many OGs did he bring in to replace the failed Corbett replacement of Zeitler? 3? 4?
... so there's that.
The man (Dorsey) had a major blind spot when it came to the OL. Same was true in KC
No kidding.... Reading the article Steve posted, besides fixing the OL, it sure looks like there's just too many holes in the roster elsewhere to be realistically fixed in just one off season.
http://www.clevsworld.com/2019/12/the-browns-2019-failures-rest-most.html?m=1
WSS
Article of the year Steve- it should be required reading for any Browns fan. I've posted elsewhere it may look like hell to the rest of the NFL (same old Browns being Brownsian), but Haslam made the correct call demanding Dorsey relinquish final say on a lot of issues... Here's a couple nuggets from the article...
"Similarly, adopting John Dorsey’s message, Freddie was empowered to stubbornly ignore the mistakes he made week after week in attempting to make Baker, OBJ and Jarvis the focus of the offense instead of what the Browns did the best – run the football."
I said elsewhere Haslam's mantra for the front office is "plays well with others" Dorsey couldn't...
"It is time for the Browns to understand what Kansas City figured out a few years ago. A good organization does not need John Dorsey. It needs grown men who can put their egos aside and work together toward a common goal."
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Another nice article London.
What I fear though from the article....
"Paul DePodesta running the head coaching search could ultimately result in another bad head coaching hire for this team, but it won't be because of his past as a baseball executive."
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Not many here were giving short odds of Kirk and Schobert being here for 2020. And Ogun did not exactly capitalize on his opportunity in 2019.
Meanwhile back at the thread...
Dorsey brought in both Robinson and Hubbard... and stuck with them for two years.
And how many OGs did he bring in to replace the failed Corbett replacement of Zeitler? 3? 4?
... so there's that.
The man (Dorsey) had a major blind spot when it came to the OL. Same was true in KC
No kidding.... Reading the article Steve posted, besides fixing the OL, it sure looks like there's just too many holes in the roster elsewhere to be realistically fixed in just one off season.
http://www.clevsworld.com/2019/12/the-browns-2019-failures-rest-most.html?m=1
WSS
Article of the year Steve- it should be required reading for any Browns fan. I've posted elsewhere it may look like hell to the rest of the NFL (same old Browns being Brownsian), but Haslam made the correct call demanding Dorsey relinquish final say on a lot of issues... Here's a couple nuggets from the article...
"Similarly, adopting John Dorsey’s message, Freddie was empowered to stubbornly ignore the mistakes he made week after week in attempting to make Baker, OBJ and Jarvis the focus of the offense instead of what the Browns did the best – run the football."
I said elsewhere Haslam's mantra for the front office is "plays well with others" Dorsey couldn't...
"It is time for the Browns to understand what Kansas City figured out a few years ago. A good organization does not need John Dorsey. It needs grown men who can put their egos aside and work together toward a common goal."
No kidding.... Reading the article Steve posted, besides fixing the OL, it sure looks like there's just too many holes in the roster elsewhere to be realistically fixed in just one off season.
Article of the year Steve- it should be required reading for any Browns fan. I've posted elsewhere it may look like hell to the rest of the NFL (same old Browns being Brownsian), but Haslam made the correct call demanding Dorsey relinquish final say on a lot of issues... Here's a couple nuggets from the article...
"Similarly, adopting John Dorsey’s message, Freddie was empowered to stubbornly ignore the mistakes he made week after week in attempting to make Baker, OBJ and Jarvis the focus of the offense instead of what the Browns did the best – run the football."
I said elsewhere Haslam's mantra for the front office is "plays well with others" Dorsey couldn't...
"It is time for the Browns to understand what Kansas City figured out a few years ago. A good organization does not need John Dorsey. It needs grown men who can put their egos aside and work together toward a common goal."
That's what I thought when I gave it it's own thread, I didn't mean to clutter the place up but I think it covered almost everything. In a reasonable and even-handed way with a lack of sugar coating.
WSS
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Well, this thread has done some good for our sanity. WC Steve's article sure pointed out a lot of stuff that we saw but may have been obscured by the trees (can't see the forest for the trees). In fairness to Dorsey, he DID see the OL tackle problems and brought in some guys for it....and the OLine play DID in fact improve over the latter half of 2018....but 2019 did not demonstrate that improvement.
...and many of us DID NOT like that he let Darren Fells go, so I'm glad to see that the article supported our feelings.
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