Bold idea that would change the landscape of sports in Cleveland
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You know Flug….old time football, was over in early December. Championships before Christmas.
I keep seeing people say that. My stock answer is if Football was meant to be played in cold crappy weather, why are all the college bowl games played in places like Pasadena, Miami, Tampa, Mobile, Dallas, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Tempe?
The answer is nobody would have gone if they were played in places like Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, NYC, Green Bay, Fargo.
College bowl games are a whole different animal. It's a getaway (for most schools), and at one time, a huge reward for a great season. The college/university VIPs aren't going to go freeze, or risk their conference pride in the snow.
College bowl games are a whole different animal. It's a getaway (for most schools), and at one time, a huge reward for a great season. The college/university VIPs aren't going to go freeze, or risk their conference pride in the snow.
Fair enough. College season are largely over around Thanksgiving The weather hasn't turned all that bad in late Nov, early Dec.
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Zombo said:
I don't know how you fit an NFL stadium and all of the extra parking in the footprint of Progressive. I don't think this was thought through.
Zombo
You don't unless you want to move a freeway or two and the parking for 50,000+++ ? And why get rid of the Jake to begin with ?
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Zombo said:
I don't know how you fit an NFL stadium and all of the extra parking in the footprint of Progressive. I don't think this was thought through.
Zombo
Well we could revisit history and raise our BP....
Art lied. He couldn't share, wouldn't share and wanted no part of the Gateway Project.
Of course, the shock wave that followed resulted in some hasty decisions....mandates by the NFL to get our team back, taxpayer/politician woes, etc.
Let's just hope Cleveland never has to go through something like this again.
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Like I first brought up, you have to think about the footprint you need. Then you need to think about parking options. You can't have available parking two miles away. You need 30,000 spots inside a mile or so.. Baseball and basketball need half of that or less. The majority of fans go to games with 1-2 with them, no matter the sport. You usually go with the spouse, or a kid, or kids. a friend or two.
I go to games single a lot, but am far from the norm, being 600 miles away.. I usually see 2-3-4 people in cars
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
Like I first brought up, you have to think about the footprint you need. Then you need to think about parking options. You can't have available parking two miles away. You need 30,000 spots inside a mile or so.. Baseball and basketball need half of that or less. The majority of fans go to games with 1-2 with them, no matter the sport. You usually go with the spouse, or a kid, or kids. a friend or two.
I go to games single a lot, but am far from the norm, being 600 miles away.. I usually see 2-3-4 people in cars
Like I first brought up, you have to think about the footprint you need. Then you need to think about parking options. You can't have available parking two miles away. You need 30,000 spots inside a mile or so.. Baseball and basketball need half of that or less. The majority of fans go to games with 1-2 with them, no matter the sport. You usually go with the spouse, or a kid, or kids. a friend or two.
I go to games single a lot, but am far from the norm, being 600 miles away.. I usually see 2-3-4 people in cars
True on some carpooling but there's also the other area demands on parking like people going to the bars and hotels that want to be in the area. And the Jake is next door to the Gund when there's something going on there.
Plus Indians games draw 10 to 30,000 fans a football game would easily double that. Affordable parking is the #1 complaint or problem wherever you go for big draw venues followed by hotel space.
Where could you put new stadiums unless you tear down and rebuild on site -or- the sometimes less popular go to a greenfield site far from the city overcrowding and start new with the acres and acres of accessible parking......but you lose the city feel and ambiance of the team.
The Cleveland Avon Lake Browns !?
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Like I first brought up, you have to think about the footprint you need. Then you need to think about parking options. You can't have available parking two miles away. You need 30,000 spots inside a mile or so.. Baseball and basketball need half of that or less. The majority of fans go to games with 1-2 with them, no matter the sport. You usually go with the spouse, or a kid, or kids. a friend or two.
I go to games single a lot, but am far from the norm, being 600 miles away.. I usually see 2-3-4 people in cars
Like I first brought up, you have to think about the footprint you need. Then you need to think about parking options. You can't have available parking two miles away. You need 30,000 spots inside a mile or so.. Baseball and basketball need half of that or less. The majority of fans go to games with 1-2 with them, no matter the sport. You usually go with the spouse, or a kid, or kids. a friend or two.
I go to games single a lot, but am far from the norm, being 600 miles away.. I usually see 2-3-4 people in cars
I did a fairly close aerial inspection (google maps) of Cleveland, and honestly I do not see any footprint big enough to support a stadium and the parking you say is needed. There may be some old industrial sites in the Flats, but traffic in and out of there would be a nightmare. There may be some space south of I480.....but then you are getting into the suburbs. Or unless you take up valuable park land, which the parks would not give up....and besides, the terrain in those park areas would not be suitable...hill/streams/rivers. You could maybe find land in Brunswick or Medina County.
Or...hey, something like this: take over a golf course and build it there. Like, say, Sleepy Hollow, or ones near Fairview Park. Golf courses are going out of business like crazy around here. The oldest golf course in Summit County is going out.
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Like I first brought up, you have to think about the footprint you need. Then you need to think about parking options. You can't have available parking two miles away. You need 30,000 spots inside a mile or so.. Baseball and basketball need half of that or less. The majority of fans go to games with 1-2 with them, no matter the sport. You usually go with the spouse, or a kid, or kids. a friend or two.
I go to games single a lot, but am far from the norm, being 600 miles away.. I usually see 2-3-4 people in cars
I did a fairly close aerial inspection (google maps) of Cleveland, and honestly I do not see any footprint big enough to support a stadium and the parking you say is needed. There may be some old industrial sites in the Flats, but traffic in and out of there would be a nightmare. There may be some space south of I480.....but then you are getting into the suburbs. Or unless you take up valuable park land, which the parks would not give up....and besides, the terrain in those park areas would not be suitable...hill/streams/rivers. You could maybe find land in Brunswick or Medina County.
Or...hey, something like this: take over a golf course and build it there. Like, say, Sleepy Hollow, or ones near Fairview Park. Golf courses are going out of business like crazy around here. The oldest golf course in Summit County is going out.
I did a fairly close aerial inspection (google maps) of Cleveland, and honestly I do not see any footprint big enough to support a stadium and the parking you say is needed. There may be some old industrial sites in the Flats, but traffic in and out of there would be a nightmare. There may be some space south of I480.....but then you are getting into the suburbs. Or unless you take up valuable park land, which the parks would not give up....and besides, the terrain in those park areas would not be suitable...hill/streams/rivers. You could maybe find land in Brunswick or Medina County.
Or...hey, something like this: take over a golf course and build it there. Like, say, Sleepy Hollow, or ones near Fairview Park. Golf courses are going out of business like crazy around here. The oldest golf course in Summit County is going out.
What did Rodney Dangerfield say about golf courses and cemeteries, the two biggest wastes of real estate there is. (Caddyshack)
Golf courses make great housing developments all landscaped out -or- maybe a good starting point for a mega stadium complex with parking !
GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND! -
A domed stadium is objectively better for the city. We just need a plan to get to one
Just an honest question for you Woody. Have you ever been to an NFL game in a Dome? (FWIW, I've been to five different ones) Sure, you can get more use out of it, but that's about all. Just my personal opinion about watching a game in a dome. Save your money, watch the game at home on your widescreen. You'll save a lot of money not having to buy a ticket, and the beer is 1\10th the cost. That's the ambiance, like sitting in your living room, and incidentally there's an NFL game going on. If that's what you prefer by all means build a dome.
I'm not going to dig them up, but there's plenty of articles by economists that the financial benefits of shelling out tons of money for these stadiums is vastly overstated.
I considered that. I was just going with proposal in the article. I clearly don't have all the details. I am sure there are other tracts of land that could be used. Even county wide. Nothing says it would have to be smack downtown. More and more teams are doing that because you just don't have the space in downtown areas.
No space? Exactly Russ. You'd need gobs of money just to clear a big enough footprint in a developed area. See below.
True on some carpooling but there's also the other area demands on parking like people going to the bars and hotels that want to be in the area. And the Jake is next door to the Gund when there's something going on there.
Plus Indians games draw 10 to 30,000 fans a football game would easily double that. Affordable parking is the #1 complaint or problem wherever you go for big draw venues followed by hotel space.
Where could you put new stadiums unless you tear down and rebuild on site -or- the sometimes less popular go to a greenfield site far from the city overcrowding and start new with the acres and acres of accessible parking......but you lose the city feel and ambiance of the team.
The Cleveland Avon Lake Browns !?
1) Regarding parking. You want close in, it's getting crazy. I love Steve's GNATS Tailgate, but Burke started charging $40 bucks this year. I'll hike from our under the bridge lot that's still only $10. If you want really nuts, parking for the Super Bowl at Jerry World was $100.
2) Boy do I have a Greenfield site for you. That will NEVER happen. The old Richfield Coliseum property. Cleveland isn't going to give up the tax revenue, and collateral gameday revenue from parking and bars.
Don't forget the Sin Tax either. If you build a new stadium its going to have to be somewhere in Cuyahoga county. And probably in Cleveland. Got any ideas for a depressed area where you could clear around a square mile with decent road access? Or a golf course?
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I did a fairly close aerial inspection (google maps) of Cleveland, and honestly I do not see any footprint big enough to support a stadium and the parking you say is needed. There may be some old industrial sites in the Flats, but traffic in and out of there would be a nightmare. There may be some space south of I480.....but then you are getting into the suburbs. Or unless you take up valuable park land, which the parks would not give up....and besides, the terrain in those park areas would not be suitable...hill/streams/rivers. You could maybe find land in Brunswick or Medina County.
Or...hey, something like this: take over a golf course and build it there. Like, say, Sleepy Hollow, or ones near Fairview Park. Golf courses are going out of business like crazy around here. The oldest golf course in Summit County is going out.
What did Rodney Dangerfield say about golf courses and cemeteries, the two biggest wastes of real estate there is. (Caddyshack)
Golf courses make great housing developments all landscaped out -or- maybe a good starting point for a mega stadium complex with parking !
What did Rodney Dangerfield say about golf courses and cemeteries, the two biggest wastes of real estate there is. (Caddyshack)
Golf courses make great housing developments all landscaped out -or- maybe a good starting point for a mega stadium complex with parking !
Well, that is just what is happening to a couple of them around here. Brookside Country Club in Norton, perhaps the oldest golf course in Summit Co. has been sold to real estate developers.
Valley View...gone. Brandywine CC....gone. Both Summit Co. Pine Valley near me here in Medina Co. almost suffered the same fate, but apparently the land developer has decided that it will be saved.
I a guessing that Millenials just don't like to play golf as much as older generations.
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A domed stadium is objectively better for the city. We just need a plan to get to one
Just an honest question for you Woody. Have you ever been to an NFL game in a Dome? (FWIW, I've been to five different ones) Sure, you can get more use out of it, but that's about all. Just my personal opinion about watching a game in a dome. Save your money, watch the game at home on your widescreen. You'll save a lot of money not having to buy a ticket, and the beer is 1\10th the cost. That's the ambiance, like sitting in your living room, and incidentally there's an NFL game going on. If that's what you prefer by all means build a dome.
I'm not going to dig them up, but there's plenty of articles by economists that the financial benefits of shelling out tons of money for these stadiums is vastly overstated.
I considered that. I was just going with proposal in the article. I clearly don't have all the details. I am sure there are other tracts of land that could be used. Even county wide. Nothing says it would have to be smack downtown. More and more teams are doing that because you just don't have the space in downtown areas.
No space? Exactly Russ. You'd need gobs of money just to clear a big enough footprint in a developed area. See below.
True on some carpooling but there's also the other area demands on parking like people going to the bars and hotels that want to be in the area. And the Jake is next door to the Gund when there's something going on there.
Plus Indians games draw 10 to 30,000 fans a football game would easily double that. Affordable parking is the #1 complaint or problem wherever you go for big draw venues followed by hotel space.
Where could you put new stadiums unless you tear down and rebuild on site -or- the sometimes less popular go to a greenfield site far from the city overcrowding and start new with the acres and acres of accessible parking......but you lose the city feel and ambiance of the team.
The Cleveland Avon Lake Browns !?
1) Regarding parking. You want close in, it's getting crazy. I love Steve's GNATS Tailgate, but Burke started charging $40 bucks this year. I'll hike from our under the bridge lot that's still only $10. If you want really nuts, parking for the Super Bowl at Jerry World was $100.
2) Boy do I have a Greenfield site for you. That will NEVER happen. The old Richfield Coliseum property. Cleveland isn't going to give up the tax revenue, and collateral gameday revenue from parking and bars.
Don't forget the Sin Tax either. If you build a new stadium its going to have to be somewhere in Cuyahoga county. And probably in Cleveland. Got any ideas for a depressed area where you could clear around a square mile with decent road access? Or a golf course?
Just an honest question for you Woody. Have you ever been to an NFL game in a Dome? (FWIW, I've been to five different ones) Sure, you can get more use out of it, but that's about all. Just my personal opinion about watching a game in a dome. Save your money, watch the game at home on your widescreen. You'll save a lot of money not having to buy a ticket, and the beer is 1\10th the cost. That's the ambiance, like sitting in your living room, and incidentally there's an NFL game going on. If that's what you prefer by all means build a dome.
I'm not going to dig them up, but there's plenty of articles by economists that the financial benefits of shelling out tons of money for these stadiums is vastly overstated.
No space? Exactly Russ. You'd need gobs of money just to clear a big enough footprint in a developed area. See below.
1) Regarding parking. You want close in, it's getting crazy. I love Steve's GNATS Tailgate, but Burke started charging $40 bucks this year. I'll hike from our under the bridge lot that's still only $10. If you want really nuts, parking for the Super Bowl at Jerry World was $100.
2) Boy do I have a Greenfield site for you. That will NEVER happen. The old Richfield Coliseum property. Cleveland isn't going to give up the tax revenue, and collateral gameday revenue from parking and bars.
Don't forget the Sin Tax either. If you build a new stadium its going to have to be somewhere in Cuyahoga county. And probably in Cleveland. Got any ideas for a depressed area where you could clear around a square mile with decent road access? Or a golf course?
The Richfield Coliseum site is now owned by the Cuyahoga Valley NP, and will never be developed that way again. That is not to say that there aren't many other privately owned sites with as much space around the outer rim of Cleveland that could be looked at.
Think about all the teams that carry the name of a city....that don't play in that city: Both NY teams. Buffalo Bills. Washington Redskins. Miami Dolphins. I believe that the new "LA" stadium will not actually be in LA, will it? San Francisco 49ers play 40 miles from SFO. Maybe some other. And, of course don't foget the "regional named teams": New England, Minnesota, Tennessee, Arizona, Carolina.
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MT.Scott golf course out here they just shortened the course and built homes around it
Where is "here" again?
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Just an honest question for you Woody. Have you ever been to an NFL game in a Dome? (FWIW, I've been to five different ones) Sure, you can get more use out of it, but that's about all. Just my personal opinion about watching a game in a dome. Save your money, watch the game at home on your widescreen. You'll save a lot of money not having to buy a ticket, and the beer is 1\10th the cost. That's the ambiance, like sitting in your living room, and incidentally there's an NFL game going on. If that's what you prefer by all means build a dome.
I'm not going to dig them up, but there's plenty of articles by economists that the financial benefits of shelling out tons of money for these stadiums is vastly overstated.
No space? Exactly Russ. You'd need gobs of money just to clear a big enough footprint in a developed area. See below.
1) Regarding parking. You want close in, it's getting crazy. I love Steve's GNATS Tailgate, but Burke started charging $40 bucks this year. I'll hike from our under the bridge lot that's still only $10. If you want really nuts, parking for the Super Bowl at Jerry World was $100.
2) Boy do I have a Greenfield site for you. That will NEVER happen. The old Richfield Coliseum property. Cleveland isn't going to give up the tax revenue, and collateral gameday revenue from parking and bars.
Don't forget the Sin Tax either. If you build a new stadium its going to have to be somewhere in Cuyahoga county. And probably in Cleveland. Got any ideas for a depressed area where you could clear around a square mile with decent road access? Or a golf course?
The Richfield Coliseum site is now owned by the Cuyahoga Valley NP, and will never be developed that way again. That is not to say that there aren't many other privately owned sites with as much space around the outer rim of Cleveland that could be looked at.
Think about all the teams that carry the name of a city....that don't play in that city: Both NY teams. Buffalo Bills. Washington Redskins. Miami Dolphins. I believe that the new "LA" stadium will not actually be in LA, will it? San Francisco 49ers play 40 miles from SFO. Maybe some other. And, of course don't foget the "regional named teams": New England, Minnesota, Tennessee, Arizona, Carolina.
The Richfield Coliseum site is now owned by the Cuyahoga Valley NP, and will never be developed that way again. That is not to say that there aren't many other privately owned sites with as much space around the outer rim of Cleveland that could be looked at.
Think about all the teams that carry the name of a city....that don't play in that city: Both NY teams. Buffalo Bills. Washington Redskins. Miami Dolphins. I believe that the new "LA" stadium will not actually be in LA, will it? San Francisco 49ers play 40 miles from SFO. Maybe some other. And, of course don't foget the "regional named teams": New England, Minnesota, Tennessee, Arizona, Carolina.
Didn't realize the National Park acquired the Richfield site Gipper. Regarding the new Rams digs SoFi Stadium- it's in Inglewood, southwest of LA.
Taking a quick look at satellite imagery of the Cleveland area- it's slim pickings to find open land. Highland Golf Course, and nothing until you get way out on the SW side near La Grange or Medina. Plenty of Parks- which are off limits to development.
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The Richfield Coliseum site is now owned by the Cuyahoga Valley NP, and will never be developed that way again. That is not to say that there aren't many other privately owned sites with as much space around the outer rim of Cleveland that could be looked at.
Think about all the teams that carry the name of a city....that don't play in that city: Both NY teams. Buffalo Bills. Washington Redskins. Miami Dolphins. I believe that the new "LA" stadium will not actually be in LA, will it? San Francisco 49ers play 40 miles from SFO. Maybe some other. And, of course don't foget the "regional named teams": New England, Minnesota, Tennessee, Arizona, Carolina.
Didn't realize the National Park acquired the Richfield site Gipper. Regarding the new Rams digs SoFi Stadium- it's in Inglewood, southwest of LA.
Taking a quick look at satellite imagery of the Cleveland area- it's slim pickings to find open land. Highland Golf Course, and nothing until you get way out on the SW side near La Grange or Medina. Plenty of Parks- which are off limits to development.
Didn't realize the National Park acquired the Richfield site Gipper. Regarding the new Rams digs SoFi Stadium- it's in Inglewood, southwest of LA.
Taking a quick look at satellite imagery of the Cleveland area- it's slim pickings to find open land. Highland Golf Course, and nothing until you get way out on the SW side near La Grange or Medina. Plenty of Parks- which are off limits to development.
Right...unless they start tearing down a whole neighborhood (blighted?)...or commercial district.
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Zombo said:
I don't know how you fit an NFL stadium and all of the extra parking in the footprint of Progressive. I don't think this was thought through.
Zombo
Parking is all over the place... That wouldn't be as big a deal as your other point - trying to fit a 65,000+ seat retractable domed football stadium into the footprint of what was a 43,000 seat baseball park. That could be interesting.
I'm trying to find how big the footprint of Progressive Field is in comparison to Seattle's CenturyLink Stadium - a football field that was creatively "crammed" into a relatively small area, but haven't yet.
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Zombo said:
I don't know how you fit an NFL stadium and all of the extra parking in the footprint of Progressive. I don't think this was thought through.
Zombo
Parking is all over the place... That wouldn't be as big a deal as your other point - trying to fit a 65,000+ seat retractable domed football stadium into the footprint of what was a 43,000 seat baseball park. That could be interesting.
I'm trying to find how big the footprint of Progressive Field is in comparison to Seattle's CenturyLink Stadium - a football field that was creatively "crammed" into a relatively small area, but haven't yet.
Parking is all over the place... That wouldn't be as big a deal as your other point - trying to fit a 65,000+ seat retractable domed football stadium into the footprint of what was a 43,000 seat baseball park. That could be interesting.
I'm sure if Modell had gone along- that site would have been configured completely differently. Of course by now, at 35+ years old- that stadium would be considered obsolete.
Did look it up- the oldest NFL stadium that hasn't been totally reconfigured (that's Soldier Field) is Arrowhead (1972) and will probably be in use for at least another 20 years. It was built to last. BTW- since you're looking for a new stadium- Kansas City also did it right. It's outside of town, the Royals stadium is next door, with probably a square mile of parking surrounding it. The Tailgating there is legendary.
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Didn't realize the National Park acquired the Richfield site Gipper. Regarding the new Rams digs SoFi Stadium- it's in Inglewood, southwest of LA.
Taking a quick look at satellite imagery of the Cleveland area- it's slim pickings to find open land. Highland Golf Course, and nothing until you get way out on the SW side near La Grange or Medina. Plenty of Parks- which are off limits to development.
Right...unless they start tearing down a whole neighborhood (blighted?)...or commercial district.
Right...unless they start tearing down a whole neighborhood (blighted?)...or commercial district.
I mean, in a city that at one time had over 900,000 people, and now has under 400,000, you have to think there's some room SOMEWHERE... ?
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Parking is all over the place... That wouldn't be as big a deal as your other point - trying to fit a 65,000+ seat retractable domed football stadium into the footprint of what was a 43,000 seat baseball park. That could be interesting.
I'm sure if Modell had gone along- that site would have been configured completely differently. Of course by now, at 35+ years old- that stadium would be considered obsolete.
Did look it up- the oldest NFL stadium that hasn't been totally reconfigured (that's Soldier Field) is Arrowhead (1972) and will probably be in use for at least another 20 years. It was built to last. BTW- since you're looking for a new stadium- Kansas City also did it right. It's outside of town, the Royals stadium is next door, with probably a square mile of parking surrounding it. The Tailgating there is legendary.
Did look it up- the oldest NFL stadium that hasn't been totally reconfigured (that's Soldier Field) is Arrowhead (1972) and will probably be in use for at least another 20 years. It was built to last. BTW- since you're looking for a new stadium- Kansas City also did it right. It's outside of town, the Royals stadium is next door, with probably a square mile of parking surrounding it. The Tailgating there is legendary.
Your feeling on watching a football game indoors is akin to my thoughts on building stadiums in the sticks and surrounding them with parking lots.
Zero ambiance.
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