Pavano Traded
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I don't see any of it as a personal attack, and I'm not trying to attack anyone else...I'm just talking Tribe. The fact of the matter is, this section of the board has been dominated by about 4 or 5 regular posters, and all of a sudden there are dozens coming on here not just to talk baseball, but to rip on my favorite team. Which is completely fine, I'm just going to have to defend my team.
If you're upset about losing some good players and having the '09 season declared over....it's understandable. Being a fan of any Cleveland sports team can be pretty agonizing. But when people are going to call for Dolan and Shapiro's heads and call us the Pittsburgh Pirates or Oakland Raiders....I just want to hear why, and hope the people will have a decent argument.
Everyone can have their own opinions, but when they start calling people out...like I said, I just hope they can back it up.
I don't see any of it as a personal attack, and I'm not trying to attack anyone else...I'm just talking Tribe. The fact of the matter is, this section of the board has been dominated by about 4 or 5 regular posters, and all of a sudden there are dozens coming on here not just to talk baseball, but to rip on my favorite team. Which is completely fine, I'm just going to have to defend my team.
You're a terrific soldier, CIMO. The same *exact* thing has happened throughout the various changes of this site, from when we were at CBS or some such place to thefullcleveland to here. Without fail, there have always been 4 or 5 regular posters until a deadline deal was made. Then - look out board! Many Browns fans (seriously - Browns fans!) would then find their way here and post all sorts of grumblings. The Colon deal was an especially perfect example. Really wish that thread was still available on Internet Archive.
It is what it is. I understand the gripes and appreciate the posts from people who reasonably talk about why such-and-such deal affects their fandom. In particular, BrownB499 offered up a terrific post. Unfortunately, those types of posts are rare and you're far more likely to run into a guy like Adam who is going to give up the *entire sport* because the Indians traded Carl Pavano. After all, we're a simple subculture of a Browns board.
FWIW, here's the initial thread where we talked about acquiring Pavano:
http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2116
Beanpot
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FWIW, Rosenthal's latest "Full Count" video mentions that Masterson was throwing 93-97 mph in his last appearance, prompting questions about his ability to close games.
http://msn.foxsports.com/video?vid=26a77a3...5c-810131f6548b
Beanpot
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I don't see any of it as a personal attack, and I'm not trying to attack anyone else...I'm just talking Tribe. The fact of the matter is, this section of the board has been dominated by about 4 or 5 regular posters, and all of a sudden there are dozens coming on here not just to talk baseball, but to rip on my favorite team. Which is completely fine, I'm just going to have to defend my team.
You're a terrific soldier, CIMO. The same *exact* thing has happened throughout the various changes of this site, from when we were at CBS or some such place to thefullcleveland to here. Without fail, there have always been 4 or 5 regular posters until a deadline deal was made. Then - look out board! Many Browns fans (seriously - Browns fans!) would then find their way here and post all sorts of grumblings. The Colon deal was an especially perfect example. Really wish that thread was still available on Internet Archive.
It is what it is. I understand the gripes and appreciate the posts from people who reasonably talk about why such-and-such deal affects their fandom. In particular, BrownB499 offered up a terrific post. Unfortunately, those types of posts are rare and you're far more likely to run into a guy like Adam who is going to give up the *entire sport* because the Indians traded Carl Pavano. After all, we're a simple subculture of a Browns board.
FWIW, here's the initial thread where we talked about acquiring Pavano:
http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2116
Beanpot
You're a terrific soldier, CIMO. The same *exact* thing has happened throughout the various changes of this site, from when we were at CBS or some such place to thefullcleveland to here. Without fail, there have always been 4 or 5 regular posters until a deadline deal was made. Then - look out board! Many Browns fans (seriously - Browns fans!) would then find their way here and post all sorts of grumblings. The Colon deal was an especially perfect example. Really wish that thread was still available on Internet Archive.
Yep, as cocky as it sounds, I just hope some of these guys coming over understand that it's "our turf".... so to speak. Everyone can have their opinions, and I'm always fine talking Tribe with anyone, but I won't just sit back while so many people are ripping the organization I'm a fan of.
FWIW, here's the initial thread where we talked about acquiring Pavano:
http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2116
Beanpot
Ah...look at how young I was. Excited about Lewis, the Raffys and Kerry f'in Wood. Good find.
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FWIW, Rosenthal's latest "Full Count" video mentions that Masterson was throwing 93-97 mph in his last appearance, prompting questions about his ability to close games.
http://msn.foxsports.com/video?vid=26a77a3...5c-810131f6548b
Beanpot
FWIW, Rosenthal's latest "Full Count" video mentions that Masterson was throwing 93-97 mph in his last appearance, prompting questions about his ability to close games.
http://msn.foxsports.com/video?vid=26a77a3...5c-810131f6548b
Beanpot
I sure hope not. I think we have enough of our current crop of young bullpen guys with closer potential, even if there's no Papelbons or Nathans in the bunch. Pretty much any of Lewis, either Perez, Sipp and Todd should be able to pitch the 9th inning. I want to see how Masterson looks as a starter, especially with his ground ball ability.
Side note....watching the game now I just caught that he's wearing #63, same as Betancourt. Pretty strange.
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You're a terrific soldier, CIMO. The same *exact* thing has happened throughout the various changes of this site, from when we were at CBS or some such place to thefullcleveland to here. Without fail, there have always been 4 or 5 regular posters until a deadline deal was made. Then - look out board! Many Browns fans (seriously - Browns fans!) would then find their way here and post all sorts of grumblings. The Colon deal was an especially perfect example. Really wish that thread was still available on Internet Archive.
Yep, as cocky as it sounds, I just hope some of these guys coming over understand that it's "our turf".... so to speak. Everyone can have their opinions, and I'm always fine talking Tribe with anyone, but I won't just sit back while so many people are ripping the organization I'm a fan of.
FWIW, here's the initial thread where we talked about acquiring Pavano:
http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2116
Beanpot
Ah...look at how young I was. Excited about Lewis, the Raffys and Kerry f'in Wood. Good find.
Yep, as cocky as it sounds, I just hope some of these guys coming over understand that it's "our turf".... so to speak. Everyone can have their opinions, and I'm always fine talking Tribe with anyone, but I won't just sit back while so many people are ripping the organization I'm a fan of.
No, I totally understand. It's maddening to read throw-away comments and then try and decide if it's worth your time to refute 'em. Personally, I've found that it's not at all worth the time. This isn't a shot at the format, but it's clear that the audience is made up of Browns fans who happen to follow the Tribe casually. Good luck breaking out OPS+ or UZR around these parts. You're more likely to run into a guy who calls one of your stats "made up" than you are a person who cares to take the time to explain why a certain stat shouldn't be given much weight.
I guess we should be happy for the extra traffic.
Or not.
FWIW, I share your frustrations.
Beanpot
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I don't mean to be a random poster, but I have a quick question about the game tonight.
Why did Masterson get replaced after 4 innings? I didn't get a chance to see the game, but from looking at his statline, he looked to be doing pretty good. Only had 1 ER and a 61 PC. Did he get some kind of injury?
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I don't mean to be a random poster, but I have a quick question about the game tonight.
Why did Masterson get replaced after 4 innings? I didn't get a chance to see the game, but from looking at his statline, he looked to be doing pretty good. Only had 1 ER and a 61 PC. Did he get some kind of injury?
I don't mean to be a random poster, but I have a quick question about the game tonight.
Why did Masterson get replaced after 4 innings? I didn't get a chance to see the game, but from looking at his statline, he looked to be doing pretty good. Only had 1 ER and a 61 PC. Did he get some kind of injury?
He's still converting from his bullpen role, he was on a pitch count of 60.
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I don't mean to be a random poster, but I have a quick question about the game tonight.
Why did Masterson get replaced after 4 innings? I didn't get a chance to see the game, but from looking at his statline, he looked to be doing pretty good. Only had 1 ER and a 61 PC. Did he get some kind of injury?
He's still converting from his bullpen role, he was on a pitch count of 60.
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But, many people UNDERSTAND the plan. Don't assume we don't know what it is because we don't like how the last DECADE of seeing this plan in action has turned out. We are upset that it's a perpetual wait-and-see-three-years-down-the-road plan.
Eh. I've tried to explain myself in about 10 different threads now so I guess I won't try anymore. But I'll sum it up. When Shapiro came on board, it was a complete rebuild. 2005-now was our window for contention. From 2005-2008 we added and re-signed a few players to $10M+/year contracts, locked up Sizemore and Fausto through 2012, added role players here and there, and lost a total of one significant player due to trade or free agency...CC (two if you consider Millwood significant). And we only lost him at the deadline before he was going to leave through FA. '
So now, trade deadline '09, we decided we weren't going to be a realistic contender...and entered rebuild #2. This hasn't been the plan for the past decade...it's the been the plan for the past couple weeks.
And, to me at least, anyone upset or shocked about losing Carl Pavano definitely doesn't understand the plan.
Eh. I've tried to explain myself in about 10 different threads now so I guess I won't try anymore. But I'll sum it up. When Shapiro came on board, it was a complete rebuild. 2005-now was our window for contention. From 2005-2008 we added and re-signed a few players to $10M+/year contracts, locked up Sizemore and Fausto through 2012, added role players here and there, and lost a total of one significant player due to trade or free agency...CC (two if you consider Millwood significant). And we only lost him at the deadline before he was going to leave through FA. '
So now, trade deadline '09, we decided we weren't going to be a realistic contender...and entered rebuild #2. This hasn't been the plan for the past decade...it's the been the plan for the past couple weeks.
And, to me at least, anyone upset or shocked about losing Carl Pavano definitely doesn't understand the plan.
Meh I might consider Coco Crisp a significant player for the tribe, as he did have good numbers for us when he was here. Milton Bradley had a few good years, but I understand why he was traded. Casey Blake was as good as anyone we have to fill his position currently. Everyone knew Millwood wasn't going to be around here long.
No matter how you slice it, with the exception of one ALCS appearance, Indians fans have been hearing continuously how good the team was going to be 2-3 years down the road. I distinctly remember reading an article in 2001 (when Shapiro became GM) the goal was to win a championship 2-3 years down the road, not 4-7 years. So, since 2001, we have been constantly hearing how good the tribe will be 2-3 years down the road, with just one playoff appearance. Nearly a decade.
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We get Yohan Pino. Obviously I've never heard of him, but here's a Twins blogger's thoughts...
Usually, "PTBNL" translates to "rubbish". In this case Cleveland actually managed to pry a player of use from a deal that basically translated to a salary dump.
http://www.twinkietown.com/2009/8/29/10066...rning-breakfastPino, an undrafted right-hander from Venezuela, was on his first stint at triple-A at age 25. He started six games for the Red Wings, the first time he was exclusively starting since his rookie-league season with Elizabethton in 2005. In spite of posting very solid numbers (1.11 WHIP, 8.0 K/9, 3.86 ERA), he managed just a 1-2 record. Of course that has less to do with his performance than other factors. His FIP was an impressive 3.39.
In spite of being a bit of a fly-ball pitcher, Pino's done a solid job of avoiding the gopher ball, and in general has been outstanding with the opposition posting a meager .235 BABIP.
Brad Weiss at Twin Cities Dugout did an excellent scouting report on Pino back in March. The highlights:
Mid to upper-80's fastball
Great breaking stuff, his strikeout pitch(es)
Breaking ball(s) and off-speed pitch make the fastball better
He's worked every role from starter to closer, and has succeeded with them all
In spite of not having that sexy fastball, he can be a strong contributor with a good arm, and he can ring up some strikeouts
http://twins.scout.com/2/845132.html
And Lastoria...
The Indians may have got more than originally thought for Pavano. While Pino is hardly an impact prospect, he is a quality pitcher who provides much needed depth to the Indians upper level pitching ranks. His fastball sits at 88-91 MPH with good sink, and he relies on his ability to change speed and command and control his three pitch mix of fastball-curveball-slider. His fastball has good movement, and he has a good feel for both of his secondary offerings with his curveball considered a plus pitch. His versatility to pitch in the bullpen or start and his exceptional command of all three of his offerings are two of his biggest strengths. His biggest asset may be his durable arm which has shown to be quite resilient and able to handle a heavy workload be it working back-to-back nights or throwing multiple innings several relief appearances in a row. He is not currently on the 40-man roster, but he is up for roster protection this offseason.
http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/2009...o-catch-in.html -
Yohan Pino is now 2-0 in his two starts for Columbus, going 14 innings and giving up 12 hits, 2 walks, and striking out 14.
For the year he's at 9-3 with a 2.83 ERA, batters are hitting .232 off him and he's struck out 122 in 127 innings.
Something for nothing indeed.
Made even better when you consider what we're paying for, here's Cousineau from the DiaTribe...
As for the trade of Pavano (which I would have been more upset had they kept him), chew on these numbers that may not be exactly accurate, but are going to be close enough that it should erase any question as to whether Pavano should have been moved and in short order:
http://clevelandtribeblog.blogspot.com/200...h-new-plan.htmlPavano’s Base Salary
Indians – $1M in base salary
Twins – $500K in base salary
Both the Indians and Twins were at the 2/3 mark of their season at 108 games when the trade was made and Pavano’s base salary was $1.5M.
Before looking at his incentives , know that Pavano had 21 starts, 125 1/3 IP when the trade was made with 10 likely starts, if he’s on a 5-man schedule for the rest of the season.
Let’s put the conservative numbers of 9 more starts and 45 more IP (only 5 IP per start).
Pavano’s Incentives
Indians – $100K for his 18th start, $100K for his 20th start
Twins – $100K for his 22nd start, $200K for his 24th start, $200K for his 26th start, $200 K for his 28th start, $250K for his 30th start; $100K for 130th IP, $100K for 140th IP, $100K for 150th IP, $150K for 160th IP, $150K for 170th IP
He could hit more incentives, earning $300K for a 32nd start, $350K each for a 33rd and 34th start, and $400K for a 35th start with inning incentives coming in at $200k for his 180th IP, $250K each for his 190, 200, and 210th IP, $300K for his 215th IP, $400K for his 225th IP, and $500K for his 235th IP.
But if you’re talking about reasonably expected results, here are the projected totals:
Indians – $1.2M
Twins – $1.85M
If Pavano was going to hit those incentives, in what world does paying Pavano close to $2M for the rest of the season make sense?
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