Browns to let Schobert walk
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I'll scratch my head if Kirksey stays on roster but not Schob.
this right here^^ Kirksey in 2017 signed 4y/38M.. to my math that's 9.5M per season.. And were questioning Joe wanting 10M?... maybe Joe's agent wanted more when Dorse was around seeing Kirk's deal? But letting Joe walk at 10M does not made any more cents in the players market... Good Luck to a guy that played his butt off for 700K & get's nothing to SHow#53 for it...?... Another drafted Brown, just done wrong by the suits..
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Mr Me-Aggies, If Schobert went to TAMU you'd give him every alibi in the book inclusive of blaming popcorn vendors.
So now we replace a LBer that played in a Pro Bowl 1 year/led the NFL in tackles another year (the years he wasn't playing injured) with a guy nobody knows what position he's best fit for on a team that desperately needs an elite LT talent at #10 overall? After MG got suspended, who was the only guy making plays and stepping up as a leader on our defense? It was the guy we invested training and development in so now that's he's become the guy we wanted - we'll pass him onto another team to benefit from his experience. Let's just say he's really good, we still need 2 other LBers, 2 OTs, 2 Safeties, 1 dual purpose TE, OL and DL depth. More specifically, we'll still have a LB that can do what Schobert did while we're still neglecting what we should be addressing.
Has anyone considered the TYPE of guy we SHOULD be questioning in terms of big $ is one that was asking other teams to get him outta here under adversity? Just asking....
Pure speculation about the thinking in the Browns FO on my part. None of us knows exactly why they are letting him float out there. I just know his weakest asset is run stopping up the middle.
I just know his weakest asset is run stopping up the middle.
... and that's the key. Joe racked up a lot of plus yardage tackles to help him lead the league. He is simply not a downhill, attacking LB vs the run... and thay may be part of the reason for his success vs the pass.
That said...
Just a average Joe , not a player worthy of 10 + million.
He's a little above average and $10mm/yr is the going rate for MLBs of his level. As others have pointed out we had a shot at a discount and let that window close.
As I've posted before I think Joe brings the skill flexibility to slide outside as well... and that's worth a little extra.
As you alluded to - once upon a time Schwartz was good not great. Now that he's surrounded by better talent...
Wait... What? Loved"the rant", but then you took it too far.
Have you compared our OL when Mitch was last here to those he's manned in KC?
Here's ours... see if you can come close...
Thomas (LT) - Bito (LG) - Mack (C) - Greco (RG) - Schwartz (RT)
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
@gumby73 said:
2 starting Tackles & 1 depth--3* /// 1* starting RG //// 2* TE's /// 1* WR3 /// 2* Safety /// now 2* LB'ers & Taylor was Cut /// 1* Edge /// 1* DT /// 1* slot corner /// does 14 players sound about right?
A bit padded... but even if the count is 10 or 12, we aren't going to satisfactorily fill all the starting holes in one off-season.
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I think that's what it comes down to for me. We were throwing almost 10m a year at Kirk, so the additional scratch in this case isn't enough to hurt my heart or this teams pocket book when we've got it. I'm a big believer in continuity and preventing personnel holes for the sake of pride. I myself think Schob would be best suited sliding to a WILL backer role. Which means we likely kick Mack inside and draft for the position as well (Malik Harrison mid rounds isn't a terrible idea at this current vantage point)
Letting him walk simply means yet another hole for this team to address and, as the theme around here tend to hold true, LB's are the glue that holds a defense together. I just don't think it's very astute of Barry to so easily dismiss being able to properly fill this role.
edit: And a hole left by a solid veteran presence that could greatly have benefited our new and young DC.
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I think that's what it comes down to for me. We were throwing almost 10m a year at Kirk, so the additional scratch in this case isn't enough to hurt my heart or this teams pocket book when we've got it. I'm a big believer in continuity and preventing personnel holes for the sake of pride. I myself think Schob would be best suited sliding to a WILL backer role. Which means we likely kick Mack inside and draft for the position as well (Malik Harrison mid rounds isn't a terrible idea at this current vantage point)
Letting him walk simply means yet another hole for this team to address and, as the theme around here tend to hold true, LB's are the glue that holds a defense together. I just don't think it's very astute of Barry to so easily dismiss being able to properly fill this role.
edit: And a hole left by a solid veteran presence that could greatly have benefited our new and young DC.
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Now wouldn't it be ironic if they take the 240 lb 4.39 speedster in the 1st and make him into the run stopping ILB??
Who are you talking about here? Simmons?
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didnt see this posted on here. Will you guys miss him? I think his best year was last year...but even then he was just average. Wanted 10million a year.
Played in a Pro Bowl 1 year and led the NFL in tackles another year. That said, some people only want to remember him for the year he played with a bad hammy and missed a lot of tackles. PFF doesn't explain that nor should they have to. A lot of the same guys fussed about Jamie Collins when he wasn't nearly 100% coming off a major injury. BB snagged him immediately; and word out of NE is he was performing like a defensive MVP the first half of the 2019 season. When you surround guys like this with better players - they play better. Make sense? It should...
Once upon a time, sucking it up and playing injured was a honorable trait. This is especially so on teams with depleted depth at the position the guy plays.
Here's a concept that seems like a lifetime ago in Cleveland. When you spend a few years to develop a player to the extent he makes a Pro Bowl 1 year and leads the NFL in tackles another year - you've already committed yourself. Consequently, you reward yourself by keeping him while rewarding the player for meeting/exceeding the expectation. For example, an undrafted LT like Tony/T-Bone Jones. Instead of locking Schobert up - Dorsey's ego didn't draft him so he's headed for the open market auction that will pay him a higher salary than we could have extended him for a few months ago IMO. Meanwhile, we've created an opening we didn't need for the growing pains of another unknown we'll get rid of as soon as we learn he's what we wanted. Then we wonder why we have so much turnover while we look to too many learning curves explaining our record again. This game counts on chemistry, continuity and leadership. I don't know about anyone else; but I would have rather had us looking to fill only 2 LBer spots to go with both OT spots, both safety spots, 1 dual purpose TE, DL and OL depth. This draft also has some damn good WRs that could help us for less cake than we're paying OBJ, who may or may not want to be here this time around.
Best examples of continuity albeit a different era. In 78 we drafted Clay Matthews and Ozzie Newsome in the first round. Both guys exemplified leadership, continuity and excellence at their positions while giving us long careers. Throughout their tenure, we reached the playoffs with 2 different QBs/3 different HCs in the 80s more than any other decade in my lifetime as a fan. According to Pro Bowl vet Guard Joe D, Clay played all 4 different LBer positions better than injured starter (except for the position he was projected to play for obvious reasons). He was the leader by example for so many playoff teams we had in the 80s. He had a much better football career at his position than Joe Namath had at his position. Don't believe me? Post Namath's career stats and we'll chat. He was just a better looking Trent Dilfer that won a Superbowl for the large market in NY (while he also had a much better SB than Dilfer). Ozzie was asked to become a TE here; and he had a HOF career at the position for 2 different productive QBs that counted his experience, leadership and reliability. The next HC/Management didn't come along and say "I didn't draft either guy so we're not wasting more money $ on their asss moving forward..." We've only allowed Joe Thomas that type of tenure and he earned Pro Bowl honors every year to perpetuate it. Nobody on defense and only Bitonio have come close to starting as many games here as Joe Thomas.
Sorry for the rant - I just couldn't hold that stuff hostage.
Played in a Pro Bowl 1 year and led the NFL in tackles another year. That said, some people only want to remember him for the year he played with a bad hammy and missed a lot of tackles. PFF doesn't explain that nor should they have to. A lot of the same guys fussed about Jamie Collins when he wasn't nearly 100% coming off a major injury. BB snagged him immediately; and word out of NE is he was performing like a defensive MVP the first half of the 2019 season. When you surround guys like this with better players - they play better. Make sense? It should...
Once upon a time, sucking it up and playing injured was a honorable trait. This is especially so on teams with depleted depth at the position the guy plays.
Here's a concept that seems like a lifetime ago in Cleveland. When you spend a few years to develop a player to the extent he makes a Pro Bowl 1 year and leads the NFL in tackles another year - you've already committed yourself. Consequently, you reward yourself by keeping him while rewarding the player for meeting/exceeding the expectation. For example, an undrafted LT like Tony/T-Bone Jones. Instead of locking Schobert up - Dorsey's ego didn't draft him so he's headed for the open market auction that will pay him a higher salary than we could have extended him for a few months ago IMO. Meanwhile, we've created an opening we didn't need for the growing pains of another unknown we'll get rid of as soon as we learn he's what we wanted. Then we wonder why we have so much turnover while we look to too many learning curves explaining our record again. This game counts on chemistry, continuity and leadership. I don't know about anyone else; but I would have rather had us looking to fill only 2 LBer spots to go with both OT spots, both safety spots, 1 dual purpose TE, DL and OL depth. This draft also has some damn good WRs that could help us for less cake than we're paying OBJ, who may or may not want to be here this time around.
Best examples of continuity albeit a different era. In 78 we drafted Clay Matthews and Ozzie Newsome in the first round. Both guys exemplified leadership, continuity and excellence at their positions while giving us long careers. Throughout their tenure, we reached the playoffs with 2 different QBs/3 different HCs in the 80s more than any other decade in my lifetime as a fan. According to Pro Bowl vet Guard Joe D, Clay played all 4 different LBer positions better than injured starter (except for the position he was projected to play for obvious reasons). He was the leader by example for so many playoff teams we had in the 80s. He had a much better football career at his position than Joe Namath had at his position. Don't believe me? Post Namath's career stats and we'll chat. He was just a better looking Trent Dilfer that won a Superbowl for the large market in NY (while he also had a much better SB than Dilfer). Ozzie was asked to become a TE here; and he had a HOF career at the position for 2 different productive QBs that counted his experience, leadership and reliability. The next HC/Management didn't come along and say "I didn't draft either guy so we're not wasting more money $ on their asss moving forward..." We've only allowed Joe Thomas that type of tenure and he earned Pro Bowl honors every year to perpetuate it. Nobody on defense and only Bitonio have come close to starting as many games here as Joe Thomas.
Sorry for the rant - I just couldn't hold that stuff hostage.
Just a note though on this: When Ozzie and Clay played, there was no free agency in the NFL. That didn't basically come in until the early 90s (and at that point, Clay did go play for the Falcons......but I don't know if it was as a FA. Maybe BB thought he had diminished skills and just got rid of him)
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I think we're in deep shit. It's no secret I can't stand Mack Wilson as a starter, and I have to think Kirko is toast. Who the hell we gonna have back there?
My gut reaction is this is a terrible decision, but I guess we'll see.
I think we're in deep shit. It's no secret I can't stand Mack Wilson as a starter, and I have to think Kirko is toast. Who the hell we gonna have back there?
My gut reaction is this is a terrible decision, but I guess we'll see.
My thoughts as well. I think Kirksey sucks. Mack Wilson was inconsistent all last year and taki didn’t even see the field much
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Mr Me-Aggies, If Schobert went to TAMU you'd give him every alibi in the book inclusive of blaming popcorn vendors.
So now we replace a LBer that played in a Pro Bowl 1 year/led the NFL in tackles another year (the years he wasn't playing injured) with a guy nobody knows what position he's best fit for on a team that desperately needs an elite LT talent at #10 overall? After MG got suspended, who was the only guy making plays and stepping up as a leader on our defense? It was the guy we invested training and development in so now that's he's become the guy we wanted - we'll pass him onto another team to benefit from his experience. Let's just say he's really good, we still need 2 other LBers, 2 OTs, 2 Safeties, 1 dual purpose TE, OL and DL depth. More specifically, we'll still have a LB that can do what Schobert did while we're still neglecting what we should be addressing.
Has anyone considered the TYPE of guy we SHOULD be questioning in terms of big $ is one that was asking other teams to get him outta here under adversity? Just asking....
Pure speculation about the thinking in the Browns FO on my part. None of us knows exactly why they are letting him float out there. I just know his weakest asset is run stopping up the middle.
Pure speculation about the thinking in the Browns FO on my part. None of us knows exactly why they are letting him float out there. I just know his weakest asset is run stopping up the middle.
I busted your chops because I enjoy the way you always keep a sense of humor about you. I agree with some of what you said. However, Schobert led the NFL in tackles on a scheme that only used 2 LBers; so are we holding both DTs just as accountable? Dorsey paid 1 them (Richardson) enough cake where the big feller said "I want me some Cleveland." We improved somewhat at stopping the run inside in 2019 - at least before we lost MG the last 6 weeks. When we lost that clamp, we asked a lot of just 2 LBers IMO.
This isn't aimed at you - I'm just using this reply to get some of this out. The goal of a FO should be to reduce the openings to fill - not increase them. Dorsey gave us Kong Shlong right up the dumpster without the vaseline. Back to back years we lost 2 LTs to jail/prison. Kareem Hunt is a Josh Gordon in training; but he's very fortunate the cops that keep finding him with the wrong company are huge Cleveland fans. We also wasted a draft pick on Gator Done at WR. His hand picked choice of Safety Dumbass Randall showed up to practice with bruises and scratches on his face (after a night out during the week) before he got scratched for a start and placed concussion protocol. We gave up a 17th pick overall for another WR that spent the 2nd half of last season asking opponents to get him out of Cleveland. Some people only want to blame analytics; while it would have been nice to have some type of analysis on what are the types that respond to adversity and who are the types you can't trust. Dorsey inherited a TON of picks and a ton of money and it seemed like he only wanted to trade away picks and players to bring in people from other teams.
Not to mention, whoever the freak saw film of Ticky Tacky's tackling with his fingers and arms only thinking he's gotta have. There wasn't 1 keeper Dorsey and GB sidekicks found in the draft on the OL, inclusive of the very first pick of round 2. And what the hail was up with Cleveland bringing in so many Miami Hurricanes via trade trade and draft during the Dorsey & Sidekicks tenure? Am I missing something or are they off by a couple decades with the time to go all in in Miami Hurricanes. Oppps, I didn't blame analytics - did I? Highsmith went to the U so nobody questioned all the knuckleheads we brought in from there that haven't been worth ball sweat.
The 1 thing he got right was Baker Mayfield, who has a bigger belly than Santa Claus today. There are some fannies that need to be lit and there are some that needed to be out of here. The 1 example of if you bust your tail and keep your head on straight on and off the field (Schobert) seems like the 1 guy even are fans are saying "don't let the door hit you in the asss on the way out." I couldn't get where they are coming from if I tried...
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Played in a Pro Bowl 1 year and led the NFL in tackles another year. That said, some people only want to remember him for the year he played with a bad hammy and missed a lot of tackles. PFF doesn't explain that nor should they have to. A lot of the same guys fussed about Jamie Collins when he wasn't nearly 100% coming off a major injury. BB snagged him immediately; and word out of NE is he was performing like a defensive MVP the first half of the 2019 season. When you surround guys like this with better players - they play better. Make sense? It should...
Once upon a time, sucking it up and playing injured was a honorable trait. This is especially so on teams with depleted depth at the position the guy plays.
Here's a concept that seems like a lifetime ago in Cleveland. When you spend a few years to develop a player to the extent he makes a Pro Bowl 1 year and leads the NFL in tackles another year - you've already committed yourself. Consequently, you reward yourself by keeping him while rewarding the player for meeting/exceeding the expectation. For example, an undrafted LT like Tony/T-Bone Jones. Instead of locking Schobert up - Dorsey's ego didn't draft him so he's headed for the open market auction that will pay him a higher salary than we could have extended him for a few months ago IMO. Meanwhile, we've created an opening we didn't need for the growing pains of another unknown we'll get rid of as soon as we learn he's what we wanted. Then we wonder why we have so much turnover while we look to too many learning curves explaining our record again. This game counts on chemistry, continuity and leadership. I don't know about anyone else; but I would have rather had us looking to fill only 2 LBer spots to go with both OT spots, both safety spots, 1 dual purpose TE, DL and OL depth. This draft also has some damn good WRs that could help us for less cake than we're paying OBJ, who may or may not want to be here this time around.
Best examples of continuity albeit a different era. In 78 we drafted Clay Matthews and Ozzie Newsome in the first round. Both guys exemplified leadership, continuity and excellence at their positions while giving us long careers. Throughout their tenure, we reached the playoffs with 2 different QBs/3 different HCs in the 80s more than any other decade in my lifetime as a fan. According to Pro Bowl vet Guard Joe D, Clay played all 4 different LBer positions better than injured starter (except for the position he was projected to play for obvious reasons). He was the leader by example for so many playoff teams we had in the 80s. He had a much better football career at his position than Joe Namath had at his position. Don't believe me? Post Namath's career stats and we'll chat. He was just a better looking Trent Dilfer that won a Superbowl for the large market in NY (while he also had a much better SB than Dilfer). Ozzie was asked to become a TE here; and he had a HOF career at the position for 2 different productive QBs that counted his experience, leadership and reliability. The next HC/Management didn't come along and say "I didn't draft either guy so we're not wasting more money $ on their asss moving forward..." We've only allowed Joe Thomas that type of tenure and he earned Pro Bowl honors every year to perpetuate it. Nobody on defense and only Bitonio have come close to starting as many games here as Joe Thomas.
Sorry for the rant - I just couldn't hold that stuff hostage.
Just a note though on this: When Ozzie and Clay played, there was no free agency in the NFL. That didn't basically come in until the early 90s (and at that point, Clay did go play for the Falcons......but I don't know if it was as a FA. Maybe BB thought he had diminished skills and just got rid of him)
Just a note though on this: When Ozzie and Clay played, there was no free agency in the NFL. That didn't basically come in until the early 90s (and at that point, Clay did go play for the Falcons......but I don't know if it was as a FA. Maybe BB thought he had diminished skills and just got rid of him)
I did say albeit a different era. Take a look at how old Clay was in the 90s when this happened as well as BB's first comments about Clay when he arrived. We drafted Clay in 78 when he was 22 so 12-14 years later puts him between 34 and 36 years old. He was 32 or 33 years old when he intercepted Jim Kelly at the 2 yard line to preserve the win over Buffalo in the playoffs. He stuck around and played at a high level a lot longer than Chip Banks ever did.
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I just know his weakest asset is run stopping up the middle.
... and that's the key. Joe racked up a lot of plus yardage tackles to help him lead the league. He is simply not a downhill, attacking LB vs the run... and thay may be part of the reason for his success vs the pass.
That said...
Just a average Joe , not a player worthy of 10 + million.
He's a little above average and $10mm/yr is the going rate for MLBs of his level. As others have pointed out we had a shot at a discount and let that window close.
As I've posted before I think Joe brings the skill flexibility to slide outside as well... and that's worth a little extra.
As you alluded to - once upon a time Schwartz was good not great. Now that he's surrounded by better talent...
Wait... What? Loved"the rant", but then you took it too far.
Have you compared our OL when Mitch was last here to those he's manned in KC?
Here's ours... see if you can come close...
Thomas (LT) - Bito (LG) - Mack (C) - Greco (RG) - Schwartz (RT)
Wait... What? Loved"the rant", but then you took it too far.
Have you compared our OL when Mitch was last here to those he's manned in KC?
Here's ours... see if you can come close...
Thomas (LT) - Bito (LG) - Mack (C) - Greco (RG) - Schwartz (RT)
On the line - you have a great point.
My bad on not clarifying the people I meant surrounding Schwartz. I was thinking of who KC has lined up at QB vrs who Cleveland lined up at QB while Schwartz was here. Alex Smith (former #1 overall QB) and Patrick Mahomes (who is as elite at the position as it gets). Any contest?
They also had a rookie RB that was offensive Rookie of the Year in the AFC we never blessed Schwartz with here. We had committees Kyle S made the best of.
They have TE Kelce that keeps drives alive, scores TD and made 5 Pro Bowls. Although Gary Barnidge made a Pro Bowl cameo for us in 2015 the last year Schwartz was here.
And they have a WR on the perimeter that helps put points on the board while he has also made the Pro Bowl on STs.
They also have a 1st round pick at LT that was treated to way better QBing than Joe Thomas ever received here. That's a shame IMO. The last year Joe played we went 1-15 reminding Mack and Schwartz they were smart to depart. Joe's reward the next year? IR and watching 0-16 football followed by retirement.
Does it sound tough to leave Cleveland at the time Schwartz did for offensive body by Andy Reid? Mack chose to go back to offensive body by Kyle S and played with enough talent to appear in a Superbowl. His choice wasn't any tougher than Schwartz's. They went where they got rewarded better for their efforts on the scoreboard. Right after Mack and Schwartz left - Cleveland went 1-31 in 2016 through 2017 (while listening to the masses announce we were tanking). This is the stuff I had in mind with my comments and I think you'll agree with a lot of it.
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didnt see this posted on here. Will you guys miss him? I think his best year was last year...but even then he was just average. Wanted 10million a year.
Played in a Pro Bowl 1 year and led the NFL in tackles another year. That said, some people only want to remember him for the year he played with a bad hammy and missed a lot of tackles. PFF doesn't explain that nor should they have to. A lot of the same guys fussed about Jamie Collins when he wasn't nearly 100% coming off a major injury. BB snagged him immediately; and word out of NE is he was performing like a defensive MVP the first half of the 2019 season. When you surround guys like this with better players - they play better. Make sense? It should...
Once upon a time, sucking it up and playing injured was a honorable trait. This is especially so on teams with depleted depth at the position the guy plays.
Here's a concept that seems like a lifetime ago in Cleveland. When you spend a few years to develop a player to the extent he makes a Pro Bowl 1 year and leads the NFL in tackles another year - you've already committed yourself. Consequently, you reward yourself by keeping him while rewarding the player for meeting/exceeding the expectation. For example, an undrafted LT like Tony/T-Bone Jones. Instead of locking Schobert up - Dorsey's ego didn't draft him so he's headed for the open market auction that will pay him a higher salary than we could have extended him for a few months ago IMO. Meanwhile, we've created an opening we didn't need for the growing pains of another unknown we'll get rid of as soon as we learn he's what we wanted. Then we wonder why we have so much turnover while we look to too many learning curves explaining our record again. This game counts on chemistry, continuity and leadership. I don't know about anyone else; but I would have rather had us looking to fill only 2 LBer spots to go with both OT spots, both safety spots, 1 dual purpose TE, DL and OL depth. This draft also has some damn good WRs that could help us for less cake than we're paying OBJ, who may or may not want to be here this time around.
Best examples of continuity albeit a different era. In 78 we drafted Clay Matthews and Ozzie Newsome in the first round. Both guys exemplified leadership, continuity and excellence at their positions while giving us long careers. Throughout their tenure, we reached the playoffs with 2 different QBs/3 different HCs in the 80s more than any other decade in my lifetime as a fan. According to Pro Bowl vet Guard Joe D, Clay played all 4 different LBer positions better than injured starter (except for the position he was projected to play for obvious reasons). He was the leader by example for so many playoff teams we had in the 80s. He had a much better football career at his position than Joe Namath had at his position. Don't believe me? Post Namath's career stats and we'll chat. He was just a better looking Trent Dilfer that won a Superbowl for the large market in NY (while he also had a much better SB than Dilfer). Ozzie was asked to become a TE here; and he had a HOF career at the position for 2 different productive QBs that counted his experience, leadership and reliability. The next HC/Management didn't come along and say "I didn't draft either guy so we're not wasting more money $ on their asss moving forward..." We've only allowed Joe Thomas that type of tenure and he earned Pro Bowl honors every year to perpetuate it. Nobody on defense and only Bitonio have come close to starting as many games here as Joe Thomas.
Sorry for the rant - I just couldn't hold that stuff hostage.
Played in a Pro Bowl 1 year and led the NFL in tackles another year. That said, some people only want to remember him for the year he played with a bad hammy and missed a lot of tackles. PFF doesn't explain that nor should they have to. A lot of the same guys fussed about Jamie Collins when he wasn't nearly 100% coming off a major injury. BB snagged him immediately; and word out of NE is he was performing like a defensive MVP the first half of the 2019 season. When you surround guys like this with better players - they play better. Make sense? It should...
Once upon a time, sucking it up and playing injured was a honorable trait. This is especially so on teams with depleted depth at the position the guy plays.
Here's a concept that seems like a lifetime ago in Cleveland. When you spend a few years to develop a player to the extent he makes a Pro Bowl 1 year and leads the NFL in tackles another year - you've already committed yourself. Consequently, you reward yourself by keeping him while rewarding the player for meeting/exceeding the expectation. For example, an undrafted LT like Tony/T-Bone Jones. Instead of locking Schobert up - Dorsey's ego didn't draft him so he's headed for the open market auction that will pay him a higher salary than we could have extended him for a few months ago IMO. Meanwhile, we've created an opening we didn't need for the growing pains of another unknown we'll get rid of as soon as we learn he's what we wanted. Then we wonder why we have so much turnover while we look to too many learning curves explaining our record again. This game counts on chemistry, continuity and leadership. I don't know about anyone else; but I would have rather had us looking to fill only 2 LBer spots to go with both OT spots, both safety spots, 1 dual purpose TE, DL and OL depth. This draft also has some damn good WRs that could help us for less cake than we're paying OBJ, who may or may not want to be here this time around.
Best examples of continuity albeit a different era. In 78 we drafted Clay Matthews and Ozzie Newsome in the first round. Both guys exemplified leadership, continuity and excellence at their positions while giving us long careers. Throughout their tenure, we reached the playoffs with 2 different QBs/3 different HCs in the 80s more than any other decade in my lifetime as a fan. According to Pro Bowl vet Guard Joe D, Clay played all 4 different LBer positions better than injured starter (except for the position he was projected to play for obvious reasons). He was the leader by example for so many playoff teams we had in the 80s. He had a much better football career at his position than Joe Namath had at his position. Don't believe me? Post Namath's career stats and we'll chat. He was just a better looking Trent Dilfer that won a Superbowl for the large market in NY (while he also had a much better SB than Dilfer). Ozzie was asked to become a TE here; and he had a HOF career at the position for 2 different productive QBs that counted his experience, leadership and reliability. The next HC/Management didn't come along and say "I didn't draft either guy so we're not wasting more money $ on their asss moving forward..." We've only allowed Joe Thomas that type of tenure and he earned Pro Bowl honors every year to perpetuate it. Nobody on defense and only Bitonio have come close to starting as many games here as Joe Thomas.
Sorry for the rant - I just couldn't hold that stuff hostage.
I agree but this new NFL with a salary cap basically forces teams to make these decisions all the time.
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I don't quite understand why John Dorsey is getting shit for Schobert walking.
The current front office is pretty much the guys who drafted Schobert. If they wanted to keep him, DePodesta and Berry could - or still can - have called him up and said: "We are the people who drafted you, we believed in you then, we believe in you now, and here's a contract offer in line with the going rate for starting MLBs. The previous front office might have been prepared to let you walk, but we are not".
But they haven't.
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I'll scratch my head if Kirksey stays on roster but not Schob.
Gip said it- Moneyball Deja Vu. they keep Chris and he gets hurt again- it won't look good.
I agree but this new NFL with a salary cap basically forces teams to make these decisions all the time.
This shouldn't have been a tough decision. The Browns have the 11th most cap room. Only makes sense if they're saving cap space when the big bills for Garrett and Mayfield come due.... There's teams spending twice as much (Steelers) at LB than the Browns.
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I don't quite understand why John Dorsey is getting shit for Schobert walking.
The current front office is pretty much the guys who drafted Schobert. If they wanted to keep him, DePodesta and Berry could - or still can - have called him up and said: "We are the people who drafted you, we believed in you then, we believe in you now, and here's a contract offer in line with the going rate for starting MLBs. The previous front office might have been prepared to let you walk, but we are not".
But they haven't.
I don't quite understand why John Dorsey is getting shit for Schobert walking.
The current front office is pretty much the guys who drafted Schobert. If they wanted to keep him, DePodesta and Berry could - or still can - have called him up and said: "We are the people who drafted you, we believed in you then, we believe in you now, and here's a contract offer in line with the going rate for starting MLBs. The previous front office might have been prepared to let you walk, but we are not".
But they haven't.
Why wouldn't Dorsey have made an effort to extend his contract during the 2019 season for less $ than being 3-4 weeks out from what the open market in FA will offer him? It's going to cost a lot more now than it would have if this franchise extended some sense of thank you when it should have been. It's now another need...
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Moneyball. Try to get cheap players that they think will be as good as the guys they have that they would have to pay bigger money to like Schobert and Vernon.
The real question is can you really get those guys for the cheaper price? Is Taki Taki going to replace Schobert, or is that going to be Mack Wilson's role?
If they let Schobert walk then as far as I’m concerned that position may be as big of a priority As offensive tackle in the draft or in Free Agency.
Fair to say?
Moneyball. Try to get cheap players that they think will be as good as the guys they have that they would have to pay bigger money to like Schobert and Vernon.
The real question is can you really get those guys for the cheaper price? Is Taki Taki going to replace Schobert, or is that going to be Mack Wilson's role?
If they let Schobert walk then as far as I’m concerned that position may be as big of a priority As offensive tackle in the draft or in Free Agency.
Fair to say?
my thoughts exactly freeing up money for the o-line
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Pure speculation about the thinking in the Browns FO on my part. None of us knows exactly why they are letting him float out there. I just know his weakest asset is run stopping up the middle.
I busted your chops because I enjoy the way you always keep a sense of humor about you. I agree with some of what you said. However, Schobert led the NFL in tackles on a scheme that only used 2 LBers; so are we holding both DTs just as accountable? Dorsey paid 1 them (Richardson) enough cake where the big feller said "I want me some Cleveland." We improved somewhat at stopping the run inside in 2019 - at least before we lost MG the last 6 weeks. When we lost that clamp, we asked a lot of just 2 LBers IMO.
This isn't aimed at you - I'm just using this reply to get some of this out. The goal of a FO should be to reduce the openings to fill - not increase them. Dorsey gave us Kong Shlong right up the dumpster without the vaseline. Back to back years we lost 2 LTs to jail/prison. Kareem Hunt is a Josh Gordon in training; but he's very fortunate the cops that keep finding him with the wrong company are huge Cleveland fans. We also wasted a draft pick on Gator Done at WR. His hand picked choice of Safety Dumbass Randall showed up to practice with bruises and scratches on his face (after a night out during the week) before he got scratched for a start and placed concussion protocol. We gave up a 17th pick overall for another WR that spent the 2nd half of last season asking opponents to get him out of Cleveland. Some people only want to blame analytics; while it would have been nice to have some type of analysis on what are the types that respond to adversity and who are the types you can't trust. Dorsey inherited a TON of picks and a ton of money and it seemed like he only wanted to trade away picks and players to bring in people from other teams.
Not to mention, whoever the freak saw film of Ticky Tacky's tackling with his fingers and arms only thinking he's gotta have. There wasn't 1 keeper Dorsey and GB sidekicks found in the draft on the OL, inclusive of the very first pick of round 2. And what the hail was up with Cleveland bringing in so many Miami Hurricanes via trade trade and draft during the Dorsey & Sidekicks tenure? Am I missing something or are they off by a couple decades with the time to go all in in Miami Hurricanes. Oppps, I didn't blame analytics - did I? Highsmith went to the U so nobody questioned all the knuckleheads we brought in from there that haven't been worth ball sweat.
The 1 thing he got right was Baker Mayfield, who has a bigger belly than Santa Claus today. There are some fannies that need to be lit and there are some that needed to be out of here. The 1 example of if you bust your tail and keep your head on straight on and off the field (Schobert) seems like the 1 guy even are fans are saying "don't let the door hit you in the asss on the way out." I couldn't get where they are coming from if I tried...
I busted your chops because I enjoy the way you always keep a sense of humor about you. I agree with some of what you said. However, Schobert led the NFL in tackles on a scheme that only used 2 LBers; so are we holding both DTs just as accountable? Dorsey paid 1 them (Richardson) enough cake where the big feller said "I want me some Cleveland." We improved somewhat at stopping the run inside in 2019 - at least before we lost MG the last 6 weeks. When we lost that clamp, we asked a lot of just 2 LBers IMO.
This isn't aimed at you - I'm just using this reply to get some of this out. The goal of a FO should be to reduce the openings to fill - not increase them. Dorsey gave us Kong Shlong right up the dumpster without the vaseline. Back to back years we lost 2 LTs to jail/prison. Kareem Hunt is a Josh Gordon in training; but he's very fortunate the cops that keep finding him with the wrong company are huge Cleveland fans. We also wasted a draft pick on Gator Done at WR. His hand picked choice of Safety Dumbass Randall showed up to practice with bruises and scratches on his face (after a night out during the week) before he got scratched for a start and placed concussion protocol. We gave up a 17th pick overall for another WR that spent the 2nd half of last season asking opponents to get him out of Cleveland. Some people only want to blame analytics; while it would have been nice to have some type of analysis on what are the types that respond to adversity and who are the types you can't trust. Dorsey inherited a TON of picks and a ton of money and it seemed like he only wanted to trade away picks and players to bring in people from other teams.
Not to mention, whoever the freak saw film of Ticky Tacky's tackling with his fingers and arms only thinking he's gotta have. There wasn't 1 keeper Dorsey and GB sidekicks found in the draft on the OL, inclusive of the very first pick of round 2. And what the hail was up with Cleveland bringing in so many Miami Hurricanes via trade trade and draft during the Dorsey & Sidekicks tenure? Am I missing something or are they off by a couple decades with the time to go all in in Miami Hurricanes. Oppps, I didn't blame analytics - did I? Highsmith went to the U so nobody questioned all the knuckleheads we brought in from there that haven't been worth ball sweat.
The 1 thing he got right was Baker Mayfield, who has a bigger belly than Santa Claus today. There are some fannies that need to be lit and there are some that needed to be out of here. The 1 example of if you bust your tail and keep your head on straight on and off the field (Schobert) seems like the 1 guy even are fans are saying "don't let the door hit you in the asss on the way out." I couldn't get where they are coming from if I tried...
There just aren't many ILBs good enough to command top $ like $15 million. I mean, Scho is good but not out there making loads of difference-maker or splash plays. I think that's why fans are like "Whatever, get the F out." It's not like he's a Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, Ryan Shazier, Jr Seau, Bobby Wagner or even Devin Bush. If they allow the ILB and S units to become depleted, it could spell trouble. Some feel Mack is not consistent enough.
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I busted your chops because I enjoy the way you always keep a sense of humor about you. I agree with some of what you said. However, Schobert led the NFL in tackles on a scheme that only used 2 LBers; so are we holding both DTs just as accountable? Dorsey paid 1 them (Richardson) enough cake where the big feller said "I want me some Cleveland." We improved somewhat at stopping the run inside in 2019 - at least before we lost MG the last 6 weeks. When we lost that clamp, we asked a lot of just 2 LBers IMO.
This isn't aimed at you - I'm just using this reply to get some of this out. The goal of a FO should be to reduce the openings to fill - not increase them. Dorsey gave us Kong Shlong right up the dumpster without the vaseline. Back to back years we lost 2 LTs to jail/prison. Kareem Hunt is a Josh Gordon in training; but he's very fortunate the cops that keep finding him with the wrong company are huge Cleveland fans. We also wasted a draft pick on Gator Done at WR. His hand picked choice of Safety Dumbass Randall showed up to practice with bruises and scratches on his face (after a night out during the week) before he got scratched for a start and placed concussion protocol. We gave up a 17th pick overall for another WR that spent the 2nd half of last season asking opponents to get him out of Cleveland. Some people only want to blame analytics; while it would have been nice to have some type of analysis on what are the types that respond to adversity and who are the types you can't trust. Dorsey inherited a TON of picks and a ton of money and it seemed like he only wanted to trade away picks and players to bring in people from other teams.
Not to mention, whoever the freak saw film of Ticky Tacky's tackling with his fingers and arms only thinking he's gotta have. There wasn't 1 keeper Dorsey and GB sidekicks found in the draft on the OL, inclusive of the very first pick of round 2. And what the hail was up with Cleveland bringing in so many Miami Hurricanes via trade trade and draft during the Dorsey & Sidekicks tenure? Am I missing something or are they off by a couple decades with the time to go all in in Miami Hurricanes. Oppps, I didn't blame analytics - did I? Highsmith went to the U so nobody questioned all the knuckleheads we brought in from there that haven't been worth ball sweat.
The 1 thing he got right was Baker Mayfield, who has a bigger belly than Santa Claus today. There are some fannies that need to be lit and there are some that needed to be out of here. The 1 example of if you bust your tail and keep your head on straight on and off the field (Schobert) seems like the 1 guy even are fans are saying "don't let the door hit you in the asss on the way out." I couldn't get where they are coming from if I tried...
There just aren't many ILBs good enough to command top $ like $15 million. I mean, Scho is good but not out there making loads of difference-maker or splash plays. I think that's why fans are like "Whatever, get the F out." It's not like he's a Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, Ryan Shazier, Jr Seau, Bobby Wagner or even Devin Bush. If they allow the ILB and S units to become depleted, it could spell trouble. Some feel Mack is not consistent enough.
There just aren't many ILBs good enough to command top $ like $15 million. I mean, Scho is good but not out there making loads of difference-maker or splash plays. I think that's why fans are like "Whatever, get the F out." It's not like he's a Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, Ryan Shazier, Jr Seau, Bobby Wagner or even Devin Bush. If they allow the ILB and S units to become depleted, it could spell trouble. Some feel Mack is not consistent enough.
We fielded 2 LBers in 2019 for God sakes and you want me to pretend he had the setup of Ray Lewis and Bobby Wagner? 1 year we had Peppers lining up in Toronto so Schobert had both inside hook zones that often extended as deep as the goal line so let's not pretend we gave him the Ravens' or Seattle's environment. Ray Lewis had Ed Reed at Safety and Rod Woodson before that(those guys are HOF players). Seattle had a Pro Bowl Safety as well. The Rats also usually had a Pro Bowl guy in front of him like Ngata, or they had Sam Adams and Tony Sirgusa keeping bodies off him upfront. We've never given Schobert any such surroundings. BTW, he was an OLB up until Gregg Williams arrived and kicked him inside. For a walk on at Wisconsin to become Big 10 Defensive Player of the Year before joining us; then changing positions and making a Pro Bowl before he later lead the NFL in Tackles is a better reflection of him than popular opinion in here seems to think. Don't read what your buddies are typing - put a little Joe Friday into this guy. Then tell me why you think I'm overrating him.
Again, Dorsey had an opportunity to extend his contract for far less $ than that throughout last season but Dorsey didn't draft him so the ego of Dorsey gave him 2 middle fingers about the possibility of him staying here. What time today did they change $10 million to $15 million or is this more of that Colin Cowherd-level research you like? If I was Joe Schobert and I met/exceeded the expectations of the team that drafted and developed me - I'd be surprised they would want to add my position to the 2 other openings they have created at LB. If it got to March, I'd get the message I might as well benefit a team that didn't invest time to train/develop me - which wouldn't suck if there was a Pro Bowl NT or 2 good DTs in front of me for the very first time of my career.
I'm glad needing 3 new starting LBers is way more popular than needing 2 new starting LBers on a team that also needs 2 new starters at OT and 2 new starters at Safety. I'm freakin pumped! We can easily afford to let a guy go that led the NFL in tackles 1 season and made a Pro Bowl another. All this time I thought we had money to spend. Why keep continuity, experience and leadership when saving $ has worked so well here since 1999? We're REAL GOOD at drafting LBers and I see 3 brand new openings for starters to prove this. It's why we always win in the AFC North...
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