The GOAT is Leaving New England... And Going to Tampa
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I really hate the GOAT label. No one can really claim that. I prefer the Greatest of His Era title. The game has changed so much I don't think anyone can say a certain player is the GOAT. Jmho.
I really hate the GOAT label. No one can really claim that. I prefer the Greatest of His Era title. The game has changed so much I don't think anyone can say a certain player is the GOAT. Jmho.
Pretty fair comment.
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Otto Graham. Oh, you forgot about him...or don't understand the game.
Lol. Makin sure the youngsters know about Otto!
Don't fret, no one has forgotten about your dear old Otto, but certainly he's not the GOAT. That goes to Brady.
#10 GOAT on one list and #5 on the other.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2726739-the-top-10-quarterbacks-of-all-time
Lol. Makin sure the youngsters know about Otto!
Don't fret, no one has forgotten about your dear old Otto, but certainly he's not the GOAT. That goes to Brady.
#10 GOAT on one list and #5 on the other.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2726739-the-top-10-quarterbacks-of-all-time
Again, just one author's opinion. Recency bias.
We could say that Patrick Mahomes is the GOAT because no one did what he did before in history....like come back 3 times after being behind by double digits in the playoffs.
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oh boy....that's our Gipper!
Yep.....someone who is perfectly accurate with his historic perspectives. The facts are the fact. You may not like them, they may not fit into your personal biases, but they are the facts.
Just because you are young Woody is no reason to be uninformed.
Yep.....someone who is perfectly accurate with his historic perspectives. The facts are the fact. You may not like them, they may not fit into your personal biases, but they are the facts.
Just because you are young Woody is no reason to be uninformed.
Just because you are old doesn't mean you need to be misinformed... and it doesn't give you final say on what is
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
Are we talking about the greatest player to ever play the position or the greatest player relative to the other players in their era?
Given the size and speed of players back when Jim Brown played what do we think Adrian Peterson would have done?
On an objectively, in a vacuum, skill based level players are getting better. Could any WR from the 60s catch the ball like Odell can? Or just compare the average WR.
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
Hope he packs a ton of sanitizer. With a bunch of old folks living there and idiotic spring breakers it's going to be bad there for awhile.
Hope he packs a ton of sanitizer. With a bunch of old folks living there and idiotic spring breakers it's going to be bad there for awhile.
No, it's not. China has already reversed the course. Tampa will be an easier ride than China.
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Are we talking about the greatest player to ever play the position or the greatest player relative to the other players in their era?
Given the size and speed of players back when Jim Brown played what do we think Adrian Peterson would have done?
On an objectively, in a vacuum, skill based level players are getting better. Could any WR from the 60s catch the ball like Odell can? Or just compare the average WR.
Are we talking about the greatest player to ever play the position or the greatest player relative to the other players in their era?
Given the size and speed of players back when Jim Brown played what do we think Adrian Peterson would have done?
On an objectively, in a vacuum, skill based level players are getting better. Could any WR from the 60s catch the ball like Odell can? Or just compare the average WR.
OLmen were 220 lbs in Brown's days.
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I don't know why, but I just have never liked the guy. Just something about him. I think he needs to simply retire. He's fading fast as a QB, and he should quit while people still remember how good he was, not for hanging on too long.
I don't know why, but I just have never liked the guy.
The fact that he owned the Steelers in the playoffs really helped me to like him.
One day ( I hope) the Browns will own the Steelers again, and win the dam AFC North consistently.
Karlis Missed -
Yep.....someone who is perfectly accurate with his historic perspectives. The facts are the fact. You may not like them, they may not fit into your personal biases, but they are the facts.
Just because you are young Woody is no reason to be uninformed.
Just because you are old doesn't mean you need to be misinformed... and it doesn't give you final say on what is
Just because you are old doesn't mean you need to be misinformed... and it doesn't give you final say on what is
No. The fact that I am right does, if you just go by the numbers.
Did your Michifuck education learn you that 10 is more than 9; and that 7 is more than 6. And that 10 is half of 20?
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Are we talking about the greatest player to ever play the position or the greatest player relative to the other players in their era?
Given the size and speed of players back when Jim Brown played what do we think Adrian Peterson would have done?
On an objectively, in a vacuum, skill based level players are getting better. Could any WR from the 60s catch the ball like Odell can? Or just compare the average WR.
Are we talking about the greatest player to ever play the position or the greatest player relative to the other players in their era?
Given the size and speed of players back when Jim Brown played what do we think Adrian Peterson would have done?
On an objectively, in a vacuum, skill based level players are getting better. Could any WR from the 60s catch the ball like Odell can? Or just compare the average WR.
JIm Brown was bigger Than Adrian Peterson: 6'2 232 compared to 6'1" 220. and probably stronger than Adrian Peterson..just based on the fact that he could drag defenders all over the field. And fast? They didn't really measure stuff like 40 times back then.
And could any WR from the 60s catch balls like Odell can? (better question: can any WR from the 2010s catch balls like Odell can...likely not). But I seem to recall that Paul Warfield could do very well.
But here is a clue for you about WRs from the 60s: As a general rule they had to be stouter than WRs today. Or they had to be shifty. Why? Because unlike now, those WRs were banged all over the field. There was no 5 yard illegal contact rule. They had to bang bodies all the down the field on their routes. Even the fast guys had to be tougher, like Charley Taylor.
Again, ask the question: what would today's receivers be like, or have to do to succeed if the rules in place now to protect them were not there. If they could be shoved, pushed, knocked down anywhere, anytime? As long as the ball was not in the air coming to them.
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Are we talking about the greatest player to ever play the position or the greatest player relative to the other players in their era?
Given the size and speed of players back when Jim Brown played what do we think Adrian Peterson would have done?
On an objectively, in a vacuum, skill based level players are getting better. Could any WR from the 60s catch the ball like Odell can? Or just compare the average WR.
OLmen were 220 lbs in Brown's days.
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Just because you are old doesn't mean you need to be misinformed... and it doesn't give you final say on what is
No. The fact that I am right does, if you just go by the numbers.
Did your Michifuck education learn you that 10 is more than 9; and that 7 is more than 6. And that 10 is half of 20?
No. The fact that I am right does, if you just go by the numbers.
Did your Michifuck education learn you that 10 is more than 9; and that 7 is more than 6. And that 10 is half of 20?
Oh please. Let's not bring that subject into it when you've been objectively incorrect on it before.
Hell, you didn't even know what Sam, Will and Mike LBs were and now you're proclaiming your great football knowledge?
Gimme a break
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
Are we talking about the greatest player to ever play the position or the greatest player relative to the other players in their era?
Given the size and speed of players back when Jim Brown played what do we think Adrian Peterson would have done?
On an objectively, in a vacuum, skill based level players are getting better. Could any WR from the 60s catch the ball like Odell can? Or just compare the average WR.
JIm Brown was bigger Than Adrian Peterson: 6'2 232 compared to 6'1" 220. and probably stronger than Adrian Peterson..just based on the fact that he could drag defenders all over the field. And fast? They didn't really measure stuff like 40 times back then.
And could any WR from the 60s catch balls like Odell can? (better question: can any WR from the 2010s catch balls like Odell can...likely not). But I seem to recall that Paul Warfield could do very well.
But here is a clue for you about WRs from the 60s: As a general rule they had to be stouter than WRs today. Or they had to be shifty. Why? Because unlike now, those WRs were banged all over the field. There was no 5 yard illegal contact rule. They had to bang bodies all the down the field on their routes. Even the fast guys had to be tougher, like Charley Taylor.
Again, ask the question: what would today's receivers be like, or have to do to succeed if the rules in place now to protect them were not there. If they could be shoved, pushed, knocked down anywhere, anytime? As long as the ball was not in the air coming to them.
JIm Brown was bigger Than Adrian Peterson: 6'2 232 compared to 6'1" 220. and probably stronger than Adrian Peterson..just based on the fact that he could drag defenders all over the field. And fast? They didn't really measure stuff like 40 times back then.
And could any WR from the 60s catch balls like Odell can? (better question: can any WR from the 2010s catch balls like Odell can...likely not). But I seem to recall that Paul Warfield could do very well.
But here is a clue for you about WRs from the 60s: As a general rule they had to be stouter than WRs today. Or they had to be shifty. Why? Because unlike now, those WRs were banged all over the field. There was no 5 yard illegal contact rule. They had to bang bodies all the down the field on their routes. Even the fast guys had to be tougher, like Charley Taylor.
Again, ask the question: what would today's receivers be like, or have to do to succeed if the rules in place now to protect them were not there. If they could be shoved, pushed, knocked down anywhere, anytime? As long as the ball was not in the air coming to them.
Do you think the guys Brown was dragging around were the same size, strength and speed as the guys AP is dragging around?
Brown was an absolute physical freak for his time. No doubt. But he's much more in line with players we're seeing today.
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
So were DL....so it evened out.
Right.... which hurts your Brown argument
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
We're all wrong.... Gipper's right... even Gipper says so... incessantly...
Matters not that it's a debate of opinions... which Gipper labeled Gorka's articles as being.... because Gipper's opinions are fact... cause math.... or at least numbers...
Engineers love numbers... I was an engineer and I still love them, so I want to play, too.
It was easier for Otto because there were fewer teams and Paul Brown only coached one of those teams.
There... I said it.... and if we still had Signatures, then I'd put it in my Sig.
Now for the "fewer teams" numbers...
- In their first three, AAFC seasons there were only seven other teams divided into two, four-team divisions. In the league's 4th and last season there were six others.
- Each of the first three, regular seasons were 14 games long. The 4th was 12 games long.
- In the AAFC's first two seasons there was a one-game playoff. In the 3rd there were two playoff games because two teams in the Division opposite the Browns finished tied for first and had to playoff for the right to lose to the Browns, who had a Bye week. In the 4th and last there were 3 playoff games, two semi's and the Championship.
- The NFL's regulation seasons were 12 games long. There were one-game playoffs.
Now some Paul Brown numbers...
- During Graham's 10-yr career, spanning '46 thru '55, Paul's Defense ranked first in the league (AAFC or NFL) in fewest points allowed 8 times. The other two years it ranked 2nd. Both of the latter were NFL seasons
- By contrast Paul's Otto-led Offense ranked 1st in points scored three times; 2nd three times; 3rd twice; and 4th twice. All four times we ranked 3rd or lower were NFL seasons.
- For those who prefer total yards as the measure of an Offense: 1st thrice; 2nd once; 3rd twice; 4th once; 5th once; 6th once; and 8th once. The 8th place season was the only one that Motley did not lead the team in rushing during his Browns' career.
Miscellany...
- Excepting his final season Otto's receivers were Dante Lavelli and Max Speedie... both are in the HOF.
- For eight of his ten seasons Otto's FB was HOF'er, Marion Motley.
- For his final eight seasons Otto's HB was 2-time, All-Pro Dub Jones... the player that lead the team in rushing the season that Motley did not. Jones was a very good receiving HB.
- Four of Otto's six highest Passer Rating seasons were in the AAFC and those four included his two best seasons.
Bottom line...
Browns were far and away the class of an inferior league in it's AAFC days. Throughout Otto's career the most consistent facet of the team was it's high-performing Defense. Throughout his HOF career Otto was surrounded by HOF skill players and the team was coached by a HOF coach.
Otto was great... no doubt about it... and there were things that worked against him, e.g., a less than pass-friendly ball and slower travel, but the game was much simpler and he faced defenses that were far less sophisticated than what we see.
So best of his era? Sure...
GOAT? Nope... for me that man ison his way to Tampa.
I can hardly wait to see how wrong my opinion is...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
No. The fact that I am right does, if you just go by the numbers.
Did your Michifuck education learn you that 10 is more than 9; and that 7 is more than 6. And that 10 is half of 20?
Oh please. Let's not bring that subject into it when you've been objectively incorrect on it before.
Hell, you didn't even know what Sam, Will and Mike LBs were and now you're proclaiming your great football knowledge?
Gimme a break
Oh please. Let's not bring that subject into it when you've been objectively incorrect on it before.
Hell, you didn't even know what Sam, Will and Mike LBs were and now you're proclaiming your great football knowledge?
Gimme a break
So, the answer is that Michigan didn't teach you any math.
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JIm Brown was bigger Than Adrian Peterson: 6'2 232 compared to 6'1" 220. and probably stronger than Adrian Peterson..just based on the fact that he could drag defenders all over the field. And fast? They didn't really measure stuff like 40 times back then.
And could any WR from the 60s catch balls like Odell can? (better question: can any WR from the 2010s catch balls like Odell can...likely not). But I seem to recall that Paul Warfield could do very well.
But here is a clue for you about WRs from the 60s: As a general rule they had to be stouter than WRs today. Or they had to be shifty. Why? Because unlike now, those WRs were banged all over the field. There was no 5 yard illegal contact rule. They had to bang bodies all the down the field on their routes. Even the fast guys had to be tougher, like Charley Taylor.
Again, ask the question: what would today's receivers be like, or have to do to succeed if the rules in place now to protect them were not there. If they could be shoved, pushed, knocked down anywhere, anytime? As long as the ball was not in the air coming to them.
Do you think the guys Brown was dragging around were the same size, strength and speed as the guys AP is dragging around?
Brown was an absolute physical freak for his time. No doubt. But he's much more in line with players we're seeing today.
Do you think the guys Brown was dragging around were the same size, strength and speed as the guys AP is dragging around?
Brown was an absolute physical freak for his time. No doubt. But he's much more in line with players we're seeing today.
Brown would have drug around the same guys that AP was dragging around better than AP did.
And FYI, no, he really was not a physical freak compared to some other runners of his day:
Marion Motley was 6'1 238.
Jim Taylor....a bit smaller 6' 1" 220 (same as AP) (the only guy to lead the NFL in rushing besides JB when JB was active)
Cookie Gilchrist 6'3" 251...was leading the AFL in rushing when JB was leading NFL.
Today's LBs and DBs are no bigger than DBs and LBs back in the day.
The only players that are truly bigger are the OL and DL....who, yes, have put on more weight.
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We're all wrong.... Gipper's right... even Gipper says so... incessantly...
Matters not that it's a debate of opinions... which Gipper labeled Gorka's articles as being.... because Gipper's opinions are fact... cause math.... or at least numbers...
Engineers love numbers... I was an engineer and I still love them, so I want to play, too.
It was easier for Otto because there were fewer teams and Paul Brown only coached one of those teams.
There... I said it.... and if we still had Signatures, then I'd put it in my Sig.
Now for the "fewer teams" numbers...
- In their first three, AAFC seasons there were only seven other teams divided into two, four-team divisions. In the league's 4th and last season there were six others.
- Each of the first three, regular seasons were 14 games long. The 4th was 12 games long.
- In the AAFC's first two seasons there was a one-game playoff. In the 3rd there were two playoff games because two teams in the Division opposite the Browns finished tied for first and had to playoff for the right to lose to the Browns, who had a Bye week. In the 4th and last there were 3 playoff games, two semi's and the Championship.
- The NFL's regulation seasons were 12 games long. There were one-game playoffs.
Now some Paul Brown numbers...
- During Graham's 10-yr career, spanning '46 thru '55, Paul's Defense ranked first in the league (AAFC or NFL) in fewest points allowed 8 times. The other two years it ranked 2nd. Both of the latter were NFL seasons
- By contrast Paul's Otto-led Offense ranked 1st in points scored three times; 2nd three times; 3rd twice; and 4th twice. All four times we ranked 3rd or lower were NFL seasons.
- For those who prefer total yards as the measure of an Offense: 1st thrice; 2nd once; 3rd twice; 4th once; 5th once; 6th once; and 8th once. The 8th place season was the only one that Motley did not lead the team in rushing during his Browns' career.
Miscellany...
- Excepting his final season Otto's receivers were Dante Lavelli and Max Speedie... both are in the HOF.
- For eight of his ten seasons Otto's FB was HOF'er, Marion Motley.
- For his final eight seasons Otto's HB was 2-time, All-Pro Dub Jones... the player that lead the team in rushing the season that Motley did not. Jones was a very good receiving HB.
- Four of Otto's six highest Passer Rating seasons were in the AAFC and those four included his two best seasons.
Bottom line...
Browns were far and away the class of an inferior league in it's AAFC days. Throughout Otto's career the most consistent facet of the team was it's high-performing Defense. Throughout his HOF career Otto was surrounded by HOF skill players and the team was coached by a HOF coach.
Otto was great... no doubt about it... and there were things that worked against him, e.g., a less than pass-friendly ball and slower travel, but the game was much simpler and he faced defenses that were far less sophisticated than what we see.
So best of his era? Sure...
GOAT? Nope... for me that man ison his way to Tampa.
I can hardly wait to see how wrong my opinion is...
We're all wrong.... Gipper's right... even Gipper says so... incessantly...
Matters not that it's a debate of opinions... which Gipper labeled Gorka's articles as being.... because Gipper's opinions are fact... cause math.... or at least numbers...
Engineers love numbers... I was an engineer and I still love them, so I want to play, too.
It was easier for Otto because there were fewer teams and Paul Brown only coached one of those teams.
There... I said it.... and if we still had Signatures, then I'd put it in my Sig.
Now for the "fewer teams" numbers...
- In their first three, AAFC seasons there were only seven other teams divided into two, four-team divisions. In the league's 4th and last season there were six others.
- Each of the first three, regular seasons were 14 games long. The 4th was 12 games long.
- In the AAFC's first two seasons there was a one-game playoff. In the 3rd there were two playoff games because two teams in the Division opposite the Browns finished tied for first and had to playoff for the right to lose to the Browns, who had a Bye week. In the 4th and last there were 3 playoff games, two semi's and the Championship.
- The NFL's regulation seasons were 12 games long. There were one-game playoffs.
Now some Paul Brown numbers...
- During Graham's 10-yr career, spanning '46 thru '55, Paul's Defense ranked first in the league (AAFC or NFL) in fewest points allowed 8 times. The other two years it ranked 2nd. Both of the latter were NFL seasons
- By contrast Paul's Otto-led Offense ranked 1st in points scored three times; 2nd three times; 3rd twice; and 4th twice. All four times we ranked 3rd or lower were NFL seasons.
- For those who prefer total yards as the measure of an Offense: 1st thrice; 2nd once; 3rd twice; 4th once; 5th once; 6th once; and 8th once. The 8th place season was the only one that Motley did not lead the team in rushing during his Browns' career.
Miscellany...
- Excepting his final season Otto's receivers were Dante Lavelli and Max Speedie... both are in the HOF.
- For eight of his ten seasons Otto's FB was HOF'er, Marion Motley.
- For his final eight seasons Otto's HB was 2-time, All-Pro Dub Jones... the player that lead the team in rushing the season that Motley did not. Jones was a very good receiving HB.
- Four of Otto's six highest Passer Rating seasons were in the AAFC and those four included his two best seasons.
Bottom line...
Browns were far and away the class of an inferior league in it's AAFC days. Throughout Otto's career the most consistent facet of the team was it's high-performing Defense. Throughout his HOF career Otto was surrounded by HOF skill players and the team was coached by a HOF coach.
Otto was great... no doubt about it... and there were things that worked against him, e.g., a less than pass-friendly ball and slower travel, but the game was much simpler and he faced defenses that were far less sophisticated than what we see.
So best of his era? Sure...
GOAT? Nope... for me that man ison his way to Tampa.
I can hardly wait to see how wrong my opinion is...
AGain.....it is a matter of recency bias that to your mind makes your opinion correct. Which means that you are not necessarily wrong, but you cannot by any objective measure prove you are right. The only objective measure is the record, and Otto wins there....in my opinion.
And again, as was said, it is merely a matter of guys playing in different eras.
Brady the Goat of his era. Unitas Goat of his era. Montana Goat of his era. Otto Goat of his era. So, arguably any of those could be argued to be the Goat.
Again, if it was so easy for Otto, and the Browns to go to those 10 in a row Championship games, then why has no team at any other time in history, before, during or after Otto's time ever gone to more than 4 in a row, . (and only one team did that: Bills, losing all 4).
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