The 'Who you watching?' 2020 thread.

tiamat63

Well at least I have time to watch more tape? *shrugs*

I'll do this "live" of sorts. I'll routinely edit and update the post - or just reply to this thread post by post as I watch. Dugger plays in a heavy quarters base system though with some man coverage and pass off calls.

Speaking of pass offs, theone where I want to write my first observation about is @ 0:41 seconds. That's cover 1 with the Mike backer playing the low hole. So when you face a situation where you have intermediate to deep crossers, you either have, what my team refers to as a "bounce" call - safety passes each others primary coverage off and we pick up the switch. Or you simply play through it by checking where your low hole coverage has leveraged and playing underneath or over top of opposite receiver. In this case, it's one of those where I'd love to work with the Browns personnel and ask my own questions to potential prospects. Because I see Dugger playing the pass off technique, while the corresponding safety, who was in man coverage, continues to pursue the whole way through.

Either way, what sets great safety play apart is the cerebral aspect. Can't have mental lapses like that on routine plays and expect to play DB in the NFL. I would just like to know WHO had the lapse as to assign credit or bust.

tiamat63

Refresher on a "base" quarters system.

Corners will 99% of the time be in man coverage on the outside receivers - numbered 1 through 4 exterior to interior. CB's are on the #1's and play them the whole way. OLB's/nickel will generally be inside shade of the #2's with some exceptions and leverage/alignment preferences vs certain personnel & routes and if they key RUN, they attack run. Safety's will be a yard or two inside eye of the #2 and the read will go off of their initial break in 2x2 sets. If the #2 goes flat and you key pass, then you're going to work to double the #1 and stem from the top down if it isn't a 'ball out' situation. Eyes are big here. Because the #2's can setup double moves or you can get an RPO thrown at you which puts the OLB into a conflict of assignment. They step down to attack the run key, #2 goes flat and you read late... #2 gets open. So those out and ups are becoming real big go to quarters beaters for many coaches. Anyway, if you get to the #1 with eyes back and the ball isn't out, you can work "down" to the #2 if you see the quarterback begin his set and throw. It's 1/3 anticipation, 1/3 study and 1/3 instinct + read/reaction. The MLB usually tracks the back, watches for QB scramble, he can drop into a low hole or some coaches even green dog pressure them. If the RB stays in to protect? Sometimes they have the go to attack if coaches feel good about it.

@ But at 1:13 is a good example of a pre-snap shift in coverage assignment based on motion.

Looks and feels cover 1, but the #3 that motions across the formation means the defense has to shift. So Dugger, instead of being in man coverage now becomes assignment free. When the #2 motions, the boundary safety steps down to take him in coverage. This allows the Mike and WILL backers to read and attack as fit. Where previously If the back releases weak side, he's picked up by the Will and the boundary safety would be dropping assignment free as a rat/robber or deep middle. Sans shift if the RB releases strong side, he's picked up by the Mike and the corresponding backer can, based on call, play low hole/crossers, pressure, spy, etc etc.

LR really likes Dugger in man coverage vs trips because he's the best athlete on the field by a pretty wide margin.

tiamat63

@ 1:20

Eye discipline and understanding of your assignment will always best athletic ability.

The #2's are running a drag/settle here. The drag from the boundary, the settle is from the field... which could either just be a curl or depending on coverage/sight adjustment can carry up field to open space (as he started to but the ball was out) But the #1's are running vertical here and, unless the coaches were inverting coverage or specifically called for a double over top of the #2 I Just.... I literally have zero idea WTF the both safety's were playing here. As I type, it can't be inverted coverage, those CB's are tight and in man. Even showing that kind of look can be risky. Dugger picks up his #2 like he's going vertical but.... that isn't THAT vertical. Usually the OLB/Nickel will carry him up field for 10-12 yards giving then turn him over. Meanwhile the other safety see's his #2 drag shallow, calls under and passes him off, but doesn't double the #1...? Almost like he's expecting the opposite #2 on a deep over his way, but it's not like he's playing him? He just stays flat footed, eyes caught inside on the man he passes off. Because the Mike backer slides with the drag... Soooo? Pause the moment you hit 1:23. You can draw a square around the field side #2 receiver. That's 4 guys that ended up having their eyes lead them to one man. Somebody fucked something up somewhere. This was a home run ball to both #1's and was going to be a touchdown either way.

tiamat63

@ 1:41 is at least straight forward enough to get a grasp on how LR handles trips quite a bit.

CB's in man on the #1's. The read goes between the #2 and #3 from the nickel and Dugger. Which ever receiver immediately goes under, in this case the #2, the linebackers pick up the under/drag/shallow what have you. Then the nickel and the safety double the vertical, in this case, the #3 and the weakside backer gets the RB should he release - which he does. Man, without going a second further, that's a ballsy call against trips. Because if you can get that #2 or #3 in that kind of space underneath, it's ripe for abuse from those pivot routes because there is NOBODY left over there. Corner has been cleared out by his #1 pushing vertical.

Here's a better video on that type of concept.

Tour2ma

tia,

Some folks are projecting Dugger as a hybrid LB. Kind of a po' man's Simmons. Also starting to read same about Chinn. Any thoughts on either?

Also while we're on Safeties... one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fall of Delpit. Wasn't all that long ago he was talked about as a Top 5 lock. Now he's hanging onto the bottom 4th of Rnd 1... and falling into round 2 in some mocks.

tiamat63

@tour2ma said:

tia,

Some folks are projecting Dugger as a hybrid LB. Kind of a po' man's Simmons. Also starting to read same about Chinn. Any thoughts on either?

Also while we're on Safeties... one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fall of Delpit. Wasn't all that long ago he was talked about as a Top 5 lock. Now he's hanging onto the bottom 4th of Rnd 1... and falling into round 2 in some mocks.

I haven't been able to get past my last time stamp on this thread. But I have watched two other games of Dugger. He's an athlete with great straight line speed and size. But he might be the most raw in terms of diagnosing route concepts, leveraging, positioning his body and taking the right angles of any DB in this draft.

Physical tools all look to be there save for some hip fluidity and lateral work that I'm not fond of. @calfoxwc isn't wrong about him being an above average athlete. But at the moment he reminds me of a kid I know who played at Kent. Safety that had to move down to a WILL linebacker roll. Ended up putting on weight and staying there too. Kid is a VERY boom or bust pick. His footwork in man coverage is not good either. A lot of wasted steps just about anywhere you put him. So when I say he's the best athlete on the field - that's how I mean he gets by. If I'm GM? I can't take him early... not the first 3 rounds at least.

Chinn has shown some flashes of the mental game that I posted about earlier. Another raw prospect BUT - happy to report his man coverage looked way better than Dugger's. Especially his closing speed and 2nd nature using that upfield hand to attack the ball.

Delpit is an enigma to me. Good size, good speed, some eye discipline there. But I think when you combine the lack of "Wow" moments with some injury history this season then you get something of a free fall. He may end up being one of those "steady" pro's who drops a round.

Tour2ma

Just reread this thread... glad Flugs' OT thread sent me to find it.

To quote the Dead... What a long, strange trip it's been...

General impression #1: I don't remember player takes evolving more than they have this season. At least that's true of mine...

GI #2: The level of disagreement has to be at an all-time low.

A lot of good work here with no better examples than Safety and OT, but there are huge voids positionally speaking. Some of the void is understandable given the low need we have for some positions (QB, CB, WR, RB) and/or the low quality of the draft for some (TE, Edge). However, there are a couple we might want to get after... LB, IDL, Edge and IOL.

For some of these it just may be a matter of gathering up assessments we've sprinkled around elsewhere. I now I did a bit of an IOL summary in another thread. And while I know I once posted that there is little Edge value beyond Round 1, I have since come across a couple names that I think have a chance to be very good role players... at least in passing situations.

We still have time and this place...

Tour2ma

Here's Ezra... Ezra Cleveland

Only one cutdown... Boise at FSU... watched most of 1st-half (FSU up 31-13).. the game wasn't pretty and neither was Ezra...

PassPro out of a 2-point was pretty damn good... gave up only one pressure. Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.
Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch, but even worse was his ZBS performance. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.
2-point? 3-point? Realized midway thru Q2 that I could predict run/pass by Ezra's stance. Then I finally saw him try to PassPro out of a 3-point... QB was almost killed. Edge was by EZ in a flash... EZ barely got out of his stance.

Ezra Cleveland plays much slower than his Combine numbers would predict. And I don't remember ever saying this about an OT before, but he just plays soft. And I mean it's not just a lack of the "nasty" we like in OL... I've liked a lot of OL who weren't nasty... Cleveland plays soft.

Can he get better? Learn a kick step? Drop his hips? Learn to punch? Learn to hand-fight? Learn to get out of a 3-point? Sure... he looks athletic enough to do all those things.

But when he does none of those things now, then I have to wonder why?

I know a half of tape is very little to come to a snap judgement, but he looks like a Day 3 guy to me...

tiamat63

@tour2ma said:

Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.

Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.

Cam Erving if I didn't see the name at the top of the post.

Especially the "soft" part.

The Gipper

@tiamat63 said:

Cam Erving if I didn't see the name at the top of the post.

Especially the "soft" part.

Yea, but Erving was taken mid first round. This guy is projected mid 2d to 3rd round, no?

tiamat63

@the-gipper said:

Yea, but Erving was taken mid first round. This guy is projected mid 2d to 3rd round, no?

Which is much higher than where Erving should have been drafted originally.

Projection means little in this case. Similar deficiencies in playing style.

Flugel

@tour2ma said:

Here's Ezra... Ezra Cleveland

Only one cutdown... Boise at FSU... watched most of 1st-half (FSU up 31-13).. the game wasn't pretty and neither was Ezra...

PassPro out of a 2-point was pretty damn good... gave up only one pressure. Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.

Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch, but even worse was his ZBS performance. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.

2-point? 3-point? Realized midway thru Q2 that I could predict run/pass by Ezra's stance. Then I finally saw him try to PassPro out of a 3-point... QB was almost killed. Edge was by EZ in a flash... EZ barely got out of his stance.

Ezra Cleveland plays much slower than his Combine numbers would predict. And I don't remember ever saying this about an OT before, but he just plays soft. And I mean it's not just a lack of the "nasty" we like in OL... I've liked a lot of OL who weren't nasty... Cleveland plays soft.

Can he get better? Learn a kick step? Drop his hips? Learn to punch? Learn to hand-fight? Learn to get out of a 3-point? Sure... he looks athletic enough to do all those things.

But when he does none of those things now, then I have to wonder why?

I know a half of tape is very little to come to a snap judgement, but he looks like a Day 3 guy to me...

Good stuff! For some reason I keep thinking of the band that calls themselves "Better than Ezra."

Anyway, I've read some mentions of him kicking inside to OG. In fact, Lindy's Draft Guide rated him as the 2nd best OG. Meanwhile, Athlon's Draft rated him as the 10th best OT but noted as a weak point "Cleveland is a bit fringy for the outside when it comes to athleticism. He struggles to anchor if forced to range to fit in pass protection; he'll have issues with speed-to-power at the next level." The summary read "he might have some limitations in pass protection and ultimately could kick inside, but Cleveland has a good chance to be a long term NFL starter."

Flugel

@flugel said:

Good stuff! For some reason I keep thinking of the band that calls themselves "Better than Ezra."

Anyway, I've read some mentions of him kicking inside to OG. In fact, Lindy's Draft Guide rated him as the 2nd best OG. Meanwhile, Athlon's Draft rated him as the 10th best OT but noted as a weak point "Cleveland is a bit fringy for the outside when it comes to athleticism. He struggles to anchor if forced to range to fit in pass protection; he'll have issues with speed-to-power at the next level." The summary read "he might have some limitations in pass protection and ultimately could kick inside, but Cleveland has a good chance to be a long term NFL starter."

I actually replied to this in the LT Thread and it ended up here. I'm having a flashback to watching Alf ending up in a Gilligan's Island episode. That same night when I asked my brother's pregnant girlfriend if she should be smoking and she said "Don't worry Butch, these aren't the kind that cause low birth weight." The problem was I was already too distracted worrying about what was in my beverage or spaghetti sauce to explain the Alf episode.

Even worse, I am now talking to myself. The good news is there is no arguing...

calfoxwc

@flugel said:

I actually replied to this in the LT Thread and it ended up here. I'm having a flashback to watching Alf ending up in a Gilligan's Island episode. That same night when I asked my brother's pregnant girlfriend if she should be smoking and she said "Don't worry Butch, these aren't the kind that cause low birth weight." The problem was I was already too distracted worrying about what was in my beverage or spaghetti sauce to explain the Alf episode.

Even worse, I am now talking to myself. The good news is there is no arguing...

ALF??? You may have had accidental spillsies of whiskey-spiked root beer into your drink... LOL

Tour2ma

@flugel said:

Good stuff! For some reason I keep thinking of the band that calls themselves "Better than Ezra."

Anyway, I've read some mentions of him kicking inside to OG. In fact, Lindy's Draft Guide rated him as the 2nd best OG. Meanwhile, Athlon's Draft rated him as the 10th best OT but noted as a weak point "Cleveland is a bit fringy for the outside when it comes to athleticism. He struggles to anchor if forced to range to fit in pass protection; he'll have issues with speed-to-power at the next level." The summary read "he might have some limitations in pass protection and ultimately could kick inside, but Cleveland has a good chance to be a long term NFL starter."

How does a guy who plays too high find salvation by moving inside?

@flugel said:

Even worse, I am now talking to myself. The good news is there is no arguing...

I've tried that. Give it time.

tiamat63

I haven't watched a single down of Kenneth Murray, LB, OU until now. I'm 17 seconds into the first game of his that I found (vs Texas). Think I might already love this kid.

Tour2ma

@tiamat63 said:

Cam Erving if I didn't see the name at the top of the post.

Especially the "soft" part.

Some similarities, but Ezra did not self-faceplant that I saw...

Tour2ma

@tiamat63 said:

I haven't watched a single down of Kenneth Murray, LB, OU until now. I'm 17 seconds into the first game of his that I found (vs Texas). Think I might already love this kid.

A while back disparaged this ILB class as a group. I've since learned that I definitely owe Murray an apology. Jury is still out on Queen.

I have liked Harrison's value as a late-2nd, early-3rd pick for a while now.

tiamat63

@tour2ma said:

A while back disparaged this ILB class as a group. I've since learned that I definitely owe Murray an apology. Jury is still out on Queen.

I have liked Harrison's value as a late-2nd, early-3rd pick for a while now.

I'm half way through the Texas game.

Murray will end up being the best looking LB in this class before it's all over IMHO. I really haven't even had much time to go through the backers and watch them save for Harrison. But he just jumps off the screen, it's incredibly difficult to NOT notice him. Everyone screaming about Simmons, but Murray might be THE will linebacker of this group.

edit: Almost forgot, when I'm taking a break from Murray, I'm watching Tega-Wanogho, LT from Auburn. Not sure if you've had a chance to watch him yet...?

The Gipper

@tour2ma said:

A while back disparaged this ILB class as a group. I've since learned that I definitely owe Murray an apology. Jury is still out on Queen.

I have liked Harrison's value as a late-2nd, early-3rd pick for a while now.

Murray was the only ILB taken in round one of our Mock Draft: #23; Queen taken Rd. 2. #34

I took Harrison for the Browns in Rd. 3 at #74.

So, maybe we were right on collectively with those guys?