The 'Who you watching?' 2020 thread.
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tia,
Some folks are projecting Dugger as a hybrid LB. Kind of a po' man's Simmons. Also starting to read same about Chinn. Any thoughts on either?
Also while we're on Safeties... one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fall of Delpit. Wasn't all that long ago he was talked about as a Top 5 lock. Now he's hanging onto the bottom 4th of Rnd 1... and falling into round 2 in some mocks.
tia,
Some folks are projecting Dugger as a hybrid LB. Kind of a po' man's Simmons. Also starting to read same about Chinn. Any thoughts on either?
Also while we're on Safeties... one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fall of Delpit. Wasn't all that long ago he was talked about as a Top 5 lock. Now he's hanging onto the bottom 4th of Rnd 1... and falling into round 2 in some mocks.
I haven't been able to get past my last time stamp on this thread. But I have watched two other games of Dugger. He's an athlete with great straight line speed and size. But he might be the most raw in terms of diagnosing route concepts, leveraging, positioning his body and taking the right angles of any DB in this draft.
Physical tools all look to be there save for some hip fluidity and lateral work that I'm not fond of. @calfoxwc isn't wrong about him being an above average athlete. But at the moment he reminds me of a kid I know who played at Kent. Safety that had to move down to a WILL linebacker roll. Ended up putting on weight and staying there too. Kid is a VERY boom or bust pick. His footwork in man coverage is not good either. A lot of wasted steps just about anywhere you put him. So when I say he's the best athlete on the field - that's how I mean he gets by. If I'm GM? I can't take him early... not the first 3 rounds at least.
Chinn has shown some flashes of the mental game that I posted about earlier. Another raw prospect BUT - happy to report his man coverage looked way better than Dugger's. Especially his closing speed and 2nd nature using that upfield hand to attack the ball.
Delpit is an enigma to me. Good size, good speed, some eye discipline there. But I think when you combine the lack of "Wow" moments with some injury history this season then you get something of a free fall. He may end up being one of those "steady" pro's who drops a round.
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Just reread this thread... glad Flugs' OT thread sent me to find it.
To quote the Dead... What a long, strange trip it's been...
General impression #1: I don't remember player takes evolving more than they have this season. At least that's true of mine...
GI #2: The level of disagreement has to be at an all-time low.
A lot of good work here with no better examples than Safety and OT, but there are huge voids positionally speaking. Some of the void is understandable given the low need we have for some positions (QB, CB, WR, RB) and/or the low quality of the draft for some (TE, Edge). However, there are a couple we might want to get after... LB, IDL, Edge and IOL.
For some of these it just may be a matter of gathering up assessments we've sprinkled around elsewhere. I now I did a bit of an IOL summary in another thread. And while I know I once posted that there is little Edge value beyond Round 1, I have since come across a couple names that I think have a chance to be very good role players... at least in passing situations.
We still have time and this place...
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Here's Ezra... Ezra Cleveland
Only one cutdown... Boise at FSU... watched most of 1st-half (FSU up 31-13).. the game wasn't pretty and neither was Ezra...
- PassPro out of a 2-point was pretty damn good... gave up only one pressure. Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.
- Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch, but even worse was his ZBS performance. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.
- 2-point? 3-point? Realized midway thru Q2 that I could predict run/pass by Ezra's stance. Then I finally saw him try to PassPro out of a 3-point... QB was almost killed. Edge was by EZ in a flash... EZ barely got out of his stance.
Ezra Cleveland plays much slower than his Combine numbers would predict. And I don't remember ever saying this about an OT before, but he just plays soft. And I mean it's not just a lack of the "nasty" we like in OL... I've liked a lot of OL who weren't nasty... Cleveland plays soft.
Can he get better? Learn a kick step? Drop his hips? Learn to punch? Learn to hand-fight? Learn to get out of a 3-point? Sure... he looks athletic enough to do all those things.
But when he does none of those things now, then I have to wonder why?
I know a half of tape is very little to come to a snap judgement, but he looks like a Day 3 guy to me...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Here's Ezra... Ezra Cleveland
Only one cutdown... Boise at FSU... watched most of 1st-half (FSU up 31-13).. the game wasn't pretty and neither was Ezra...
- PassPro out of a 2-point was pretty damn good... gave up only one pressure. Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.
- Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch, but even worse was his ZBS performance. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.
- 2-point? 3-point? Realized midway thru Q2 that I could predict run/pass by Ezra's stance. Then I finally saw him try to PassPro out of a 3-point... QB was almost killed. Edge was by EZ in a flash... EZ barely got out of his stance.
Ezra Cleveland plays much slower than his Combine numbers would predict. And I don't remember ever saying this about an OT before, but he just plays soft. And I mean it's not just a lack of the "nasty" we like in OL... I've liked a lot of OL who weren't nasty... Cleveland plays soft.
Can he get better? Learn a kick step? Drop his hips? Learn to punch? Learn to hand-fight? Learn to get out of a 3-point? Sure... he looks athletic enough to do all those things.
But when he does none of those things now, then I have to wonder why?
I know a half of tape is very little to come to a snap judgement, but he looks like a Day 3 guy to me...
Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.
- Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.
Cam Erving if I didn't see the name at the top of the post.
Especially the "soft" part.
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Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.
- Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.
Cam Erving if I didn't see the name at the top of the post.
Especially the "soft" part.
Cam Erving if I didn't see the name at the top of the post.
Especially the "soft" part.
Yea, but Erving was taken mid first round. This guy is projected mid 2d to 3rd round, no?
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Yea, but Erving was taken mid first round. This guy is projected mid 2d to 3rd round, no?
Which is much higher than where Erving should have been drafted originally.
Projection means little in this case. Similar deficiencies in playing style.
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Here's Ezra... Ezra Cleveland
Only one cutdown... Boise at FSU... watched most of 1st-half (FSU up 31-13).. the game wasn't pretty and neither was Ezra...
- PassPro out of a 2-point was pretty damn good... gave up only one pressure. Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.
- Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch, but even worse was his ZBS performance. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.
- 2-point? 3-point? Realized midway thru Q2 that I could predict run/pass by Ezra's stance. Then I finally saw him try to PassPro out of a 3-point... QB was almost killed. Edge was by EZ in a flash... EZ barely got out of his stance.
Ezra Cleveland plays much slower than his Combine numbers would predict. And I don't remember ever saying this about an OT before, but he just plays soft. And I mean it's not just a lack of the "nasty" we like in OL... I've liked a lot of OL who weren't nasty... Cleveland plays soft.
Can he get better? Learn a kick step? Drop his hips? Learn to punch? Learn to hand-fight? Learn to get out of a 3-point? Sure... he looks athletic enough to do all those things.
But when he does none of those things now, then I have to wonder why?
I know a half of tape is very little to come to a snap judgement, but he looks like a Day 3 guy to me...
Here's Ezra... Ezra Cleveland
Only one cutdown... Boise at FSU... watched most of 1st-half (FSU up 31-13).. the game wasn't pretty and neither was Ezra...
- PassPro out of a 2-point was pretty damn good... gave up only one pressure. Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.
- Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch, but even worse was his ZBS performance. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.
- 2-point? 3-point? Realized midway thru Q2 that I could predict run/pass by Ezra's stance. Then I finally saw him try to PassPro out of a 3-point... QB was almost killed. Edge was by EZ in a flash... EZ barely got out of his stance.
Ezra Cleveland plays much slower than his Combine numbers would predict. And I don't remember ever saying this about an OT before, but he just plays soft. And I mean it's not just a lack of the "nasty" we like in OL... I've liked a lot of OL who weren't nasty... Cleveland plays soft.
Can he get better? Learn a kick step? Drop his hips? Learn to punch? Learn to hand-fight? Learn to get out of a 3-point? Sure... he looks athletic enough to do all those things.
But when he does none of those things now, then I have to wonder why?
I know a half of tape is very little to come to a snap judgement, but he looks like a Day 3 guy to me...
Good stuff! For some reason I keep thinking of the band that calls themselves "Better than Ezra."
Anyway, I've read some mentions of him kicking inside to OG. In fact, Lindy's Draft Guide rated him as the 2nd best OG. Meanwhile, Athlon's Draft rated him as the 10th best OT but noted as a weak point "Cleveland is a bit fringy for the outside when it comes to athleticism. He struggles to anchor if forced to range to fit in pass protection; he'll have issues with speed-to-power at the next level." The summary read "he might have some limitations in pass protection and ultimately could kick inside, but Cleveland has a good chance to be a long term NFL starter."
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Here's Ezra... Ezra Cleveland
Only one cutdown... Boise at FSU... watched most of 1st-half (FSU up 31-13).. the game wasn't pretty and neither was Ezra...
- PassPro out of a 2-point was pretty damn good... gave up only one pressure. Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.
- Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch, but even worse was his ZBS performance. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.
- 2-point? 3-point? Realized midway thru Q2 that I could predict run/pass by Ezra's stance. Then I finally saw him try to PassPro out of a 3-point... QB was almost killed. Edge was by EZ in a flash... EZ barely got out of his stance.
Ezra Cleveland plays much slower than his Combine numbers would predict. And I don't remember ever saying this about an OT before, but he just plays soft. And I mean it's not just a lack of the "nasty" we like in OL... I've liked a lot of OL who weren't nasty... Cleveland plays soft.
Can he get better? Learn a kick step? Drop his hips? Learn to punch? Learn to hand-fight? Learn to get out of a 3-point? Sure... he looks athletic enough to do all those things.
But when he does none of those things now, then I have to wonder why?
I know a half of tape is very little to come to a snap judgement, but he looks like a Day 3 guy to me...
Good stuff! For some reason I keep thinking of the band that calls themselves "Better than Ezra."
Anyway, I've read some mentions of him kicking inside to OG. In fact, Lindy's Draft Guide rated him as the 2nd best OG. Meanwhile, Athlon's Draft rated him as the 10th best OT but noted as a weak point "Cleveland is a bit fringy for the outside when it comes to athleticism. He struggles to anchor if forced to range to fit in pass protection; he'll have issues with speed-to-power at the next level." The summary read "he might have some limitations in pass protection and ultimately could kick inside, but Cleveland has a good chance to be a long term NFL starter."
Good stuff! For some reason I keep thinking of the band that calls themselves "Better than Ezra."
Anyway, I've read some mentions of him kicking inside to OG. In fact, Lindy's Draft Guide rated him as the 2nd best OG. Meanwhile, Athlon's Draft rated him as the 10th best OT but noted as a weak point "Cleveland is a bit fringy for the outside when it comes to athleticism. He struggles to anchor if forced to range to fit in pass protection; he'll have issues with speed-to-power at the next level." The summary read "he might have some limitations in pass protection and ultimately could kick inside, but Cleveland has a good chance to be a long term NFL starter."
I actually replied to this in the LT Thread and it ended up here. I'm having a flashback to watching Alf ending up in a Gilligan's Island episode. That same night when I asked my brother's pregnant girlfriend if she should be smoking and she said "Don't worry Butch, these aren't the kind that cause low birth weight." The problem was I was already too distracted worrying about what was in my beverage or spaghetti sauce to explain the Alf episode.
Even worse, I am now talking to myself. The good news is there is no arguing...
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Good stuff! For some reason I keep thinking of the band that calls themselves "Better than Ezra."
Anyway, I've read some mentions of him kicking inside to OG. In fact, Lindy's Draft Guide rated him as the 2nd best OG. Meanwhile, Athlon's Draft rated him as the 10th best OT but noted as a weak point "Cleveland is a bit fringy for the outside when it comes to athleticism. He struggles to anchor if forced to range to fit in pass protection; he'll have issues with speed-to-power at the next level." The summary read "he might have some limitations in pass protection and ultimately could kick inside, but Cleveland has a good chance to be a long term NFL starter."
I actually replied to this in the LT Thread and it ended up here. I'm having a flashback to watching Alf ending up in a Gilligan's Island episode. That same night when I asked my brother's pregnant girlfriend if she should be smoking and she said "Don't worry Butch, these aren't the kind that cause low birth weight." The problem was I was already too distracted worrying about what was in my beverage or spaghetti sauce to explain the Alf episode.
Even worse, I am now talking to myself. The good news is there is no arguing...
I actually replied to this in the LT Thread and it ended up here. I'm having a flashback to watching Alf ending up in a Gilligan's Island episode. That same night when I asked my brother's pregnant girlfriend if she should be smoking and she said "Don't worry Butch, these aren't the kind that cause low birth weight." The problem was I was already too distracted worrying about what was in my beverage or spaghetti sauce to explain the Alf episode.
Even worse, I am now talking to myself. The good news is there is no arguing...
ALF??? You may have had accidental spillsies of whiskey-spiked root beer into your drink... LOL
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Here's Ezra... Ezra Cleveland
Only one cutdown... Boise at FSU... watched most of 1st-half (FSU up 31-13).. the game wasn't pretty and neither was Ezra...
- PassPro out of a 2-point was pretty damn good... gave up only one pressure. Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.
- Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch, but even worse was his ZBS performance. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.
- 2-point? 3-point? Realized midway thru Q2 that I could predict run/pass by Ezra's stance. Then I finally saw him try to PassPro out of a 3-point... QB was almost killed. Edge was by EZ in a flash... EZ barely got out of his stance.
Ezra Cleveland plays much slower than his Combine numbers would predict. And I don't remember ever saying this about an OT before, but he just plays soft. And I mean it's not just a lack of the "nasty" we like in OL... I've liked a lot of OL who weren't nasty... Cleveland plays soft.
Can he get better? Learn a kick step? Drop his hips? Learn to punch? Learn to hand-fight? Learn to get out of a 3-point? Sure... he looks athletic enough to do all those things.
But when he does none of those things now, then I have to wonder why?
I know a half of tape is very little to come to a snap judgement, but he looks like a Day 3 guy to me...
Good stuff! For some reason I keep thinking of the band that calls themselves "Better than Ezra."
Anyway, I've read some mentions of him kicking inside to OG. In fact, Lindy's Draft Guide rated him as the 2nd best OG. Meanwhile, Athlon's Draft rated him as the 10th best OT but noted as a weak point "Cleveland is a bit fringy for the outside when it comes to athleticism. He struggles to anchor if forced to range to fit in pass protection; he'll have issues with speed-to-power at the next level." The summary read "he might have some limitations in pass protection and ultimately could kick inside, but Cleveland has a good chance to be a long term NFL starter."
Good stuff! For some reason I keep thinking of the band that calls themselves "Better than Ezra."
Anyway, I've read some mentions of him kicking inside to OG. In fact, Lindy's Draft Guide rated him as the 2nd best OG. Meanwhile, Athlon's Draft rated him as the 10th best OT but noted as a weak point "Cleveland is a bit fringy for the outside when it comes to athleticism. He struggles to anchor if forced to range to fit in pass protection; he'll have issues with speed-to-power at the next level." The summary read "he might have some limitations in pass protection and ultimately could kick inside, but Cleveland has a good chance to be a long term NFL starter."
How does a guy who plays too high find salvation by moving inside?
Even worse, I am now talking to myself. The good news is there is no arguing...
I've tried that. Give it time.
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I haven't watched a single down of Kenneth Murray, LB, OU until now. I'm 17 seconds into the first game of his that I found (vs Texas). Think I might already love this kid.
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Movement was decent and as long as he was square, he was in control... or at least he stayed in the way. "Control" is a bit of an overstatement. He does not punch. He does make his chest available to others. The pressure he gave up was due to being rocked by a chest punch.
- Run block out of a 3-point was weak. Drive blocks were beaten by punch. Seemed like every time he tried to flow he ended up being knocked a yard or two behind the LOS.
Cam Erving if I didn't see the name at the top of the post.
Especially the "soft" part.
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I haven't watched a single down of Kenneth Murray, LB, OU until now. I'm 17 seconds into the first game of his that I found (vs Texas). Think I might already love this kid.
I haven't watched a single down of Kenneth Murray, LB, OU until now. I'm 17 seconds into the first game of his that I found (vs Texas). Think I might already love this kid.
A while back disparaged this ILB class as a group. I've since learned that I definitely owe Murray an apology. Jury is still out on Queen.
I have liked Harrison's value as a late-2nd, early-3rd pick for a while now.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I haven't watched a single down of Kenneth Murray, LB, OU until now. I'm 17 seconds into the first game of his that I found (vs Texas). Think I might already love this kid.
A while back disparaged this ILB class as a group. I've since learned that I definitely owe Murray an apology. Jury is still out on Queen.
I have liked Harrison's value as a late-2nd, early-3rd pick for a while now.
A while back disparaged this ILB class as a group. I've since learned that I definitely owe Murray an apology. Jury is still out on Queen.
I have liked Harrison's value as a late-2nd, early-3rd pick for a while now.
I'm half way through the Texas game.
Murray will end up being the best looking LB in this class before it's all over IMHO. I really haven't even had much time to go through the backers and watch them save for Harrison. But he just jumps off the screen, it's incredibly difficult to NOT notice him. Everyone screaming about Simmons, but Murray might be THE will linebacker of this group.
edit: Almost forgot, when I'm taking a break from Murray, I'm watching Tega-Wanogho, LT from Auburn. Not sure if you've had a chance to watch him yet...?
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I haven't watched a single down of Kenneth Murray, LB, OU until now. I'm 17 seconds into the first game of his that I found (vs Texas). Think I might already love this kid.
A while back disparaged this ILB class as a group. I've since learned that I definitely owe Murray an apology. Jury is still out on Queen.
I have liked Harrison's value as a late-2nd, early-3rd pick for a while now.
A while back disparaged this ILB class as a group. I've since learned that I definitely owe Murray an apology. Jury is still out on Queen.
I have liked Harrison's value as a late-2nd, early-3rd pick for a while now.
Murray was the only ILB taken in round one of our Mock Draft: #23; Queen taken Rd. 2. #34
I took Harrison for the Browns in Rd. 3 at #74.
So, maybe we were right on collectively with those guys?
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Had to stop watching Murray for a moment, because when you find good LB play, generally that means there's some quality big boys in front of him.
Neville Gallimore Is. A. Fucking. Dog. Good lord.
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Had to stop watching Murray for a moment, because when you find good LB play, generally that means there's some quality big boys in front of him.
Neville Gallimore Is. A. Fucking. Dog. Good lord.
Neville Gallimore Is. A. Fucking. Dog. Good lord.
that's a bad as$ dawg, i don't want to see anywhere in the AFCN..strong pad level hands, with good reach, that will break your hands off.. does watching Timmy Jernigan come to mind?
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that's a bad as$ dawg, i don't want to see anywhere in the AFCN..strong pad level hands, with good reach, that will break your hands off.. does watching Timmy Jernigan come to mind?
I'm not entirely sure if it's just any one player that comes to mind. He isn't very tall, but he has a great first step and he has boxer like hands. To me that's Aaron Donald. Natural leverage created by height (lack of) and a strong base with quick feet. But he's a bit thicker, 3bills. Maybe 305ish? He has a decent wing span, but he doesn't have such a great one that I would walk him out over a guard every down. So I could see some Timmy J there. He's basically a gap shooting 1tech in an odd front base, then you just kick him around as you see fit. But his burst, violence and pad level give centers and guards fits to their interior shoulder. Almost like a smaller Akiem Hicks?
An interesting, but very fun watch.
edit: Right team, wrong player. A smaller Eddie Goldman.
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Had to stop watching Murray for a moment, because when you find good LB play, generally that means there's some quality big boys in front of him.
Neville Gallimore Is. A. Fucking. Dog. Good lord.
Had to stop watching Murray for a moment, because when you find good LB play, generally that means there's some quality big boys in front of him.
Neville Gallimore Is. A. Fucking. Dog. Good lord.
4 year starter at OU. Recruited by every major college program.
i know It came down to OU and Ohio State. I know OSU was disappointed when they didn’t land him
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Had to stop watching Murray for a moment, because when you find good LB play, generally that means there's some quality big boys in front of him.
Neville Gallimore Is. A. Fucking. Dog. Good lord.
Had to stop watching Murray for a moment, because when you find good LB play, generally that means there's some quality big boys in front of him.
True, but the LB still has to cash in the IDL's effort.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
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