How did the Defense get so bad?
-
I lost count of how many 4th down stops we didn’t make last night. I don’t even need fingers to count how many 4th down stops we made.
bagels were 8 of 18 on 3rd..and 5 out of 5 on 4ths...glad to help...our back 7 is astoundingly bad..
-
I don't know how this is shocking. Other than All-World Ward, nobody in the back 7 can cover at all.
Maybe Kevin Johnson or Greedy will help, but unless and until they get full speed, this season is going to be a lot of 35-30, 42-38, and Parkey shanking game winners. Phillips and Wilson aren't improving the pass D any.. watching Burrow pick this team apart means it's going to be a long season. They need to upgrade the pass D both at safety and LB after this season.
I don't know how this is shocking. Other than All-World Ward, nobody in the back 7 can cover at all.
Maybe Kevin Johnson or Greedy will help, but unless and until they get full speed, this season is going to be a lot of 35-30, 42-38, and Parkey shanking game winners. Phillips and Wilson aren't improving the pass D any.. watching Burrow pick this team apart means it's going to be a long season. They need to upgrade the pass D both at safety and LB after this season.
And I don't think this offense (read: Baker Mayfield) is dynamic enough to consistently put up 25-30 points a game to overcome this defense.
And Greedy needs to get on the field - before he's officially considered an injury-prone player who cannot be depended upon. I believe he's missed over a 1/3 of the NFL games he's been eligible to play in.
-
Just for reference, here's how the Browns defenses fared in the four seasons with Joe Schobert:
2016: Allowed 28.3 points per game (16th out of 16 AFC teams)
2017: Allowed 25.6 points per game (15th/16)
2018: Allowed 24.5 points per game (11th/16)
2019: Allowed 24.6 points per game (12th/16)
As I said before, when was this defense good?
Just for reference, here's how the Browns defenses fared in the four seasons with Joe Schobert:
2016: Allowed 28.3 points per game (16th out of 16 AFC teams)
2017: Allowed 25.6 points per game (15th/16)
2018: Allowed 24.5 points per game (11th/16)
2019: Allowed 24.6 points per game (12th/16)
As I said before, when was this defense good?
I never thought it was good, but during the worst years it was definitely better than the awful O we had, so I guess the offense doing better than the defense makes some people worry aabout the defense.
-
I don't know how this is shocking. Other than All-World Ward, nobody in the back 7 can cover at all.
Maybe Kevin Johnson or Greedy will help, but unless and until they get full speed, this season is going to be a lot of 35-30, 42-38, and Parkey shanking game winners. Phillips and Wilson aren't improving the pass D any.. watching Burrow pick this team apart means it's going to be a long season. They need to upgrade the pass D both at safety and LB after this season.
And I don't think this offense (read: Baker Mayfield) is dynamic enough to consistently put up 25-30 points a game to overcome this defense.
And Greedy needs to get on the field - before he's officially considered an injury-prone player who cannot be depended upon. I believe he's missed over a 1/3 of the NFL games he's been eligible to play in.
And I don't think this offense (read: Baker Mayfield) is dynamic enough to consistently put up 25-30 points a game to overcome this defense.
And Greedy needs to get on the field - before he's officially considered an injury-prone player who cannot be depended upon. I believe he's missed over a 1/3 of the NFL games he's been eligible to play in.
We need ball control. I think we can do this if we continue to run block well. Limit possessions by the other team. Get a few splash plays from Garrett and Co.
I’m with you on Greedy.
-
-
I wonder how many pass rush wins he had against quite a few double teams?
-
And I don't think this offense (read: Baker Mayfield) is dynamic enough to consistently put up 25-30 points a game to overcome this defense.
And Greedy needs to get on the field - before he's officially considered an injury-prone player who cannot be depended upon. I believe he's missed over a 1/3 of the NFL games he's been eligible to play in.
We need ball control. I think we can do this if we continue to run block well. Limit possessions by the other team. Get a few splash plays from Garrett and Co.
I’m with you on Greedy.
We need ball control. I think we can do this if we continue to run block well. Limit possessions by the other team. Get a few splash plays from Garrett and Co.
I’m with you on Greedy.
It's amazing how that works. Better run game = better clock management, better field position, better run option passing game and, better red zone scoring ( more 7s not 3s) and give the defense a rest which helps them perform better.
Hunt + Chubb will wear out the opposing defenses later in the game.
That's why better all around teams are successful like Baltimore for one example.
-
And I don't think this offense (read: Baker Mayfield) is dynamic enough to consistently put up 25-30 points a game to overcome this defense.
And Greedy needs to get on the field - before he's officially considered an injury-prone player who cannot be depended upon. I believe he's missed over a 1/3 of the NFL games he's been eligible to play in.
We need ball control. I think we can do this if we continue to run block well. Limit possessions by the other team. Get a few splash plays from Garrett and Co.
I’m with you on Greedy.
We need ball control. I think we can do this if we continue to run block well. Limit possessions by the other team. Get a few splash plays from Garrett and Co.
I’m with you on Greedy.
I don't think the O will put up much more than 24 per game, while probably giving up 30+ most games.
-
I wonder how many pass rush wins he had against quite a few double teams?
I wonder how many pass rush wins he had against quite a few double teams?
Not one that I saw... and he saw a lot of dbls.. more if you count chips.
But if an O has to use two to block him, then that's a win in my book.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Just for reference, here's how the Browns defenses fared in the four seasons with Joe Schobert:
2016: Allowed 28.3 points per game (16th out of 16 AFC teams)
2017: Allowed 25.6 points per game (15th/16)
2018: Allowed 24.5 points per game (11th/16)
2019: Allowed 24.6 points per game (12th/16)
As I said before, when was this defense good?
I never thought it was good, but during the worst years it was definitely better than the awful O we had, so I guess the offense doing better than the defense makes some people worry aabout the defense.
I never thought it was good, but during the worst years it was definitely better than the awful O we had, so I guess the offense doing better than the defense makes some people worry aabout the defense.
I never remember it being anywhere close to this bad. Many people gave us a break week 1 because it was the Ravens, but now we looked exactly the same against the Bengals and it's scaring me.
I think what's frustrating is we have a QB that could really win some games if he got some breaks. When was the last time Baker got a defensive TD? A special teams score? Shit, how many 3 and outs does Baker get from HIS defense? How about stopping a team on 4th down? Nope, Baker doesn't get ANY of that.
Think of it this way. What is Baker's record if he's on the Steelers? Those jerkoffs ALWAYS seem to have a good defense, and I can promise you this, we won't be able to run the ball on the Steelers all willy-nilly. It just doesn't work that way against them, AND Baker won't have time to throw. Just how it is.
Can you imagine how good we'd be if teams feared our defense? With our running game, our TEs, and our OL and WRs? Shit, we could play ball control and eat up teams and the clock at the same time. However, if we can't stop ANYONE, we're going to lose a ton of games because outscoring other people on a constant basis is going to be extremely difficult. Can we do it? I think we proved that we can, but it's not a terrific map to success.
I know playing GM is obviously much harder than it looks, but the one trade I wanted for our Browns was the one for Khalil Mack. I literally would have traded just about whatever they wanted to get him. Myles and Mack on the same team would have been so stupid. Teams wouldn't be able to drop back without serious problems.
Listen, I realize the injuries to Johnson, Greedy, and Mack didn't help, and I know Delpit was supposed to be a big deal, but geeeeeeeez. I don't expect some massive turnaround when most of our injured return, but they HAVE to help, right? RIGHT?! ?
-
For the love of God... not everything was going to be addressed in this one off-season.
We've made obviously progress on one side of the ball... be happy for now.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
PFF's 5th takeaway of 5...
Denzel Ward is getting closer to top-tier status at the position
Remember when the Browns took Denzel Ward fourth overall in the 2018 NFL Draft, prompting nearly everyone to say it was crazy to select him over edge rusher Bradley Chubb? Well, Cleveland was very much correct in doing so, as Ward is on the path to becoming a premier NFL corner in the NFL. And last night verified that.
Ward was our 16th-ranked cornerback entering the 2020 season after playing at a high level in his first two years in the NFL. In that span, he produced the ninth-best coverage grade in the league when lined up at outside corner. Against Cincinnati, Ward and the rest of the Browns’ defensive backs had a tough test with the bevy of passes Burrow threw, but the third-year corner held his own and effectively shut down (Green and Higgins as) I mentioned above.
Ward saw ample reps in single coverage throughout the game, and he won far more often than he lost. On such plays, Ward recorded an 86.5 coverage grade, allowing just three of nine targets to be caught for 19 yards (one was a score) while forcing four incompletions. And of those nine, Ward had his man in tight coverage on seven (only one was caught).
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-five-takeaways-cleveland-browns-win-cincinnati-bengals-week-2-2020
-
PFF's 5th takeaway of 5...
Denzel Ward is getting closer to top-tier status at the position
Remember when the Browns took Denzel Ward fourth overall in the 2018 NFL Draft, prompting nearly everyone to say it was crazy to select him over edge rusher Bradley Chubb? Well, Cleveland was very much correct in doing so, as Ward is on the path to becoming a premier NFL corner in the NFL. And last night verified that.
Ward was our 16th-ranked cornerback entering the 2020 season after playing at a high level in his first two years in the NFL. In that span, he produced the ninth-best coverage grade in the league when lined up at outside corner. Against Cincinnati, Ward and the rest of the Browns’ defensive backs had a tough test with the bevy of passes Burrow threw, but the third-year corner held his own and effectively shut down (Green and Higgins as) I mentioned above.
Ward saw ample reps in single coverage throughout the game, and he won far more often than he lost. On such plays, Ward recorded an 86.5 coverage grade, allowing just three of nine targets to be caught for 19 yards (one was a score) while forcing four incompletions. And of those nine, Ward had his man in tight coverage on seven (only one was caught).
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-five-takeaways-cleveland-browns-win-cincinnati-bengals-week-2-2020
PFF's 5th takeaway of 5...
I was already thinking of posting a thread about who people thought was our best Def player of the night. Much as I loved Garrett's strip and his
occupation of multiple defenders, it was Ward who really looked like the great CB we expected him to be. I told my wife the WRs should have just
left their uniforms off when he was covering 'em because he looked like a second form fitting uni without committing PIs. Green is a great receiver but
Ward clearly had him rattled.
-
For the love of God... not everything was going to be addressed in this one off-season.
We've made obviously progress on one side of the ball... be happy for now.
-
PFF's 5th takeaway of 5...
I was already thinking of posting a thread about who people thought was our best Def player of the night. Much as I loved Garrett's strip and his
occupation of multiple defenders, it was Ward who really looked like the great CB we expected him to be. I told my wife the WRs should have just
left their uniforms off when he was covering 'em because he looked like a second form fitting uni without committing PIs. Green is a great receiver but
Ward clearly had him rattled.
I was already thinking of posting a thread about who people thought was our best Def player of the night. Much as I loved Garrett's strip and his
occupation of multiple defenders, it was Ward who really looked like the great CB we expected him to be. I told my wife the WRs should have just
left their uniforms off when he was covering 'em because he looked like a second form fitting uni without committing PIs. Green is a great receiver but
Ward clearly had him rattled.
Ward was brilliant and so was Terrence Mitchell. I have no idea how we managed to keep Mitchell again because he's definitely good enough to start. Technically I guess he DOES start for us because Greedy never plays. Lol.
Is Greedy even better than him? I'm not actually sure he is. Our problems on defense don't have anything to do with our outside corners. It's our slot corner, our safeties, and our linebackers. For example, on that first Bengals TD to their TE, our new safety Harrison was about a year late helping out and I'm pretty sure he was benched after that.
That Delpit injury really hurts and I just hate it for the kid. But I don't know how much help Mack is going to be. I never thought he was that good to begin with, so I really hope people aren't expecting some massive miracle in the middle of our defense. He was a 5th rounder for a reason, but I guess it's possible we found a diamond. To me, the biggest boon to our defense is going to be Kevin Johnson. That guy can cover the slot and will really be an unbelievable upgrade over Tavier Thomas, who should never be seen again except for special teams. Thomas has been targeted approximately 50 times and has given up 50 completions.
-
PFF's 5th takeaway of 5...
I was already thinking of posting a thread about who people thought was our best Def player of the night. Much as I loved Garrett's strip and his
occupation of multiple defenders, it was Ward who really looked like the great CB we expected him to be. I told my wife the WRs should have just
left their uniforms off when he was covering 'em because he looked like a second form fitting uni without committing PIs. Green is a great receiver but
Ward clearly had him rattled.
it was Ward who really looked like the great CB
Too hard for me to judge without a game-long all-22... but can't argue against him either.
Had you asked your question, then I would have said Richardson... seemed like he played on Cinci's side of the LOS all nite long...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
The best Browns' D since 1980? Marty era.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/1988_roster.htm
-
Pro bowlers first teamers since 1988 three Matthews, Minefield, Dixon....... that's it three. Offence and defense, Kosar was 1st team in 1987.
And 1988 was the year the BROWNS used 5 starters, Kosar only started in 9 games.
Fontenot started was 0-1 passing and Danielson finished the game. Five different starters in 16 games went 10-6 made the wc game lost to Houston 24-23....what a season. Five different starters and still made the playoffs, one for the trivia contests went 10-7 overall. Normally with 5 starters you go 7-9 if you're lucky. Oh and RB Fontenot was in GB the next season, 40 receptions and 17 rushes finished his career with GB the next year 30 receptions and 17 rushes again. More BROWNS and GB trivia.
Passing
No. Player Age Pos G GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A Y/C Y/G Rate QBR Sk Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk% 4QC GWD 19 Bernie Kosar 25 QB 9 9 6-3-0 156 259 60.2 1890 10 3.9 7 2.7 77 7.3 6.9 12.1 210.0 84.3 25 172 6.05 5.64 8.8 3 3 10 Mike Pagel 28 5 4 2-2-0 71 134 53.0 736 3 2.2 4 3.0 28 5.5 4.6 10.4 147.2 64.1 1 9 5.39 4.50 0.7 12 Don Strock 38 4 2 2-0-0 55 91 60.4 736 6 6.6 5 5.5 41 8.1 6.9 13.4 184.0 85.2 4 26 7.47 6.37 4.2 1 1 18 Gary Danielson 37 2 1 0-1-0 31 52 59.6 324 0 0.0 1 1.9 26 6.2 5.4 10.5 162.0 69.7 6 43 4.84 4.07 10.3 0 1 28 Herman Fontenot 25 16 1 0 1 0.0 0 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 39.6 0 0 0.00 0.00 Defense & Fumbles ProBowl....* 1st-tm All-Pro
- Glossary*
Games Def Interceptions Fumbles Tackles No. Player Age Pos G GS Int Yds TD Lng PD FF Fmb FR Yds TD Sk Comb Solo Ast TFL QBHits Sfty Team Total 26.9 16 20 319 1 75 3 32 23 -28 1 37 59 Mike Johnson 26 LILB 16 16 2 36 0 31 1 0 0 0 0 0.0 132 132 0 57 Clay Matthews* 32 ROLB 16 16 0 2 0 0 6.0 101 101 0 48 Brian Washington 23 SS 16 14 3 104 1 75 0.5 69 69 0 92 Michael Dean Perry 23 16 2 2 0 2 10 1 6.0 25 25 0 51 Eddie Johnson 29 RILB 15 8 2 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 3.0 44 Earnest Byner 26 RB 16 16 5 2 0 0 0.0 22 Felix Wright 29 FS 16 16 5 126 0 53 1 1 0 0 0.0 34 Kevin Mack 26 FB 11 11 5 1 0 0 0.0 12 Don Strock 38 4 2 4 2 -2 0 0.0 72 Charles Buchanan 24 9 0 5.0 1 56 David Grayson 24 LOLB 16 14 5.0 91 Sam Clancy 30 LDE 16 12 4.5 23 Mark Harper 27 13 1 2 13 0 8 0 1 0 0 1.0 88 Reggie Langhorne 25 WR 16 16 3 1 0 0 0.0 42 Tim Manoa 24 16 4 4 0 0 0 0.0 89 Gerald McNeil 26 16 0 3 1 0 0 0.0 31 Frank Minnifield*+ 28 LCB 15 15 4 16 0 13 0.0 29 Hanford Dixon* 30 RCB 15 15 2 24 0 24 0 1 0 0 0.0 78 Carl Hairston 36 RDE 14 13 3.0 35 Will Hill 25 16 1 0 1 0 0 1.0 19 Bernie Kosar 25 QB 9 9 0 2 0 0 0.0 73 Gregg Rakoczy 23 C 16 16 2 0 -16 0 0.0 4 Max Runager 32 13 0 1 1 -16 0 0.0 85 Clarence Weathers 26 wr 16 6 2 0 0 0 0.0 18 Gary Danielson 37 2 1 1 0 -4 0 0.0 95 Marlon Jones 24 16 1 1.0 10 Mike Pagel 28 5 4 0 1 0 0 0.0 84 Webster Slaughter 24 WR 8 8 1 0 0 0 0.0 70 Larry Williams 25 LG 14 14 0 1 0 0 0.0 -
I never thought it was good, but during the worst years it was definitely better than the awful O we had, so I guess the offense doing better than the defense makes some people worry aabout the defense.
I never remember it being anywhere close to this bad. Many people gave us a break week 1 because it was the Ravens, but now we looked exactly the same against the Bengals and it's scaring me.
I think what's frustrating is we have a QB that could really win some games if he got some breaks. When was the last time Baker got a defensive TD? A special teams score? Shit, how many 3 and outs does Baker get from HIS defense? How about stopping a team on 4th down? Nope, Baker doesn't get ANY of that.
Think of it this way. What is Baker's record if he's on the Steelers? Those jerkoffs ALWAYS seem to have a good defense, and I can promise you this, we won't be able to run the ball on the Steelers all willy-nilly. It just doesn't work that way against them, AND Baker won't have time to throw. Just how it is.
Can you imagine how good we'd be if teams feared our defense? With our running game, our TEs, and our OL and WRs? Shit, we could play ball control and eat up teams and the clock at the same time. However, if we can't stop ANYONE, we're going to lose a ton of games because outscoring other people on a constant basis is going to be extremely difficult. Can we do it? I think we proved that we can, but it's not a terrific map to success.
I know playing GM is obviously much harder than it looks, but the one trade I wanted for our Browns was the one for Khalil Mack. I literally would have traded just about whatever they wanted to get him. Myles and Mack on the same team would have been so stupid. Teams wouldn't be able to drop back without serious problems.
Listen, I realize the injuries to Johnson, Greedy, and Mack didn't help, and I know Delpit was supposed to be a big deal, but geeeeeeeez. I don't expect some massive turnaround when most of our injured return, but they HAVE to help, right? RIGHT?! ?
we looked exactly the same against the Bengals and it's scaring me
He picked us apart over the middle before the rush could get home where something called a LB is supposed to be - but we have zilch. And so that will be the season. Again.. because this isn't the first time we've had decent outside DB play but nada over the middle.
If a rookie with no preseason can do it.. veterans around the league will paraphrase the Nike ad from the 90's - "anything he can do I can do better"
Call it doom and gloom - or call it self-scouting. Accept reality on reality's terms.. shows where we need to improve to win.
It takes top units on both sides of the ball to actually win a title.. myths about O or D being the "only" side that matters rely more on luck and hyperbole.
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
we looked exactly the same against the Bengals and it's scaring me
He picked us apart over the middle before the rush could get home where something called a LB is supposed to be - but we have zilch. And so that will be the season. Again.. because this isn't the first time we've had decent outside DB play but nada over the middle.
If a rookie with no preseason can do it.. veterans around the league will paraphrase the Nike ad from the 90's - "anything he can do I can do better"
Call it doom and gloom - or call it self-scouting. Accept reality on reality's terms.. shows where we need to improve to win.
It takes top units on both sides of the ball to actually win a title.. myths about O or D being the "only" side that matters rely more on luck and hyperbole.
He picked us apart over the middle before the rush could get home where something called a LB is supposed to be - but we have zilch. And so that will be the season. Again.. because this isn't the first time we've had decent outside DB play but nada over the middle.
If a rookie with no preseason can do it.. veterans around the league will paraphrase the Nike ad from the 90's - "anything he can do I can do better"
Call it doom and gloom - or call it self-scouting. Accept reality on reality's terms.. shows where we need to improve to win.
It takes top units on both sides of the ball to actually win a title.. myths about O or D being the "only" side that matters rely more on luck and hyperbole.
If our defense didn't go 0/5 on 4th downs the running game would have been on the field more, cinci would not have scoring drives continue against the defense, Cleveland may have score more.
And the BROWNS beat cinci by 12 or more? They won by 5 the line was CLE -6...... what will the line be in WEEK 7 and Burrow doesn't have only 1 week's NFL experience under his belt ? What will that line be which is a good indicator of how the game might go.
Beating Cincinnati by 5 is a win over the weakest team in the AFCN so what will BAL and PIT do with two experienced quarterbacks, well we know what one did on the road so far.
GO BROWNS, should be an interesting year !
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login