Kiper's Big Board
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Dawgfanforever88 said:
He's not up there because he isnt first round talentThat is where you are wrong.
He is first round talent. It just depends on if a team is willing to be the trend setter and scrap all this "WildDawg" stuff and just make it the base O.
Someone is going to do it sooner or later, win, and then everyone is going to be looking for qbs who can fit the new wave of the NFL.
Nobody can tell me Tebow isn't first round talent.
Did i make you happy Alo??
I do admit he might not be drafted there, and that is a shame. If he is there in round 2, the Browns better take him. He is WAY better than ANY qb we have on our team.
He is going to work out from under center a good deal this year just to satisfy the needs of the old school football thinkers.
The era of the drop back QB is about done. You might as well catch the wave early because in 4-5 years, colleges won't have any drop back QBs to recruit.
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mz. said:
Couldn't disagree more. I think the days of drafting shotgun/pistol/spread offense QB prospects in early rounds and trying to convert them to traditional dropback passers is what's dead.Six or seven years from now one of us will be proven wrong.
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It will be you proven wrong 'peen.
The simple fact is that the NFL starting 11 on defenses are WAY too athletic for the "athletic" QB other than the rare exception.
Barring rule changes that change the complexity of the game, the QB's job remains passing the football. Plain and simple.
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GAY BUCKEYE ALERT
Pryor will be what Peens is talking about, but I don't see it becoming commonplace. Pryor is a freak.
Is a pig's ass pork? -
It will be you proven wrong 'peen.
The simple fact is that the NFL starting 11 on defenses are WAY too athletic for the "athletic" QB other than the rare exception.
Barring rule changes that change the complexity of the game, the QB's job remains passing the football. Plain and simple.
It will be you proven wrong 'peen.
The simple fact is that the NFL starting 11 on defenses are WAY too athletic for the "athletic" QB other than the rare exception.
Barring rule changes that change the complexity of the game, the QB's job remains passing the football. Plain and simple.
Hey Grey.......maybe so....but we aren't talking about not passing the ball.
Tebow passes the ball pretty darn well.
When you get down to it....passing out of a shotgun is a better system.
Look at it this way....on the games final play, do QB's up under center or in the gun??
I would assume that when a coach needs to make a passing play, he lines his QB in the position where he has the best chance for success.
A few of you may not be able to see it now.....but you will.
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Aloysius said:
Not a big of Dunlap, at least not yet. His physical tools are beyond impressive, but the guy doesn't appear comfortable rushing with his hand down. He seems to prefer standing up & running straight at a guard. That bulldozes college o-linemen, but he'll need to do more to be successful at the next level.On a perhaps related note, he plays with too high a pad level. For a guy that big & athletic, he gets knocked back by fullbacks way too frequently.
He has #1 pick potential but could easily go the way of Calais Campbell & Michael Johnson.
He's still got technique to learn to be sure. As a true sophomore, I don't expect too much. But he's got a ton of physical tools. He just turned 20 in February, and is still growing into his frame. He's listed anywhere from 6'6" to 6'8", depending on who you read. The reality of it seems to be right around 6'7". And he wears 290 lbs like a power forward. He's a killer in the weight room. Word is, his target weight may be 300-305. This kid has a ton of potential. But he has to mature his football skills.
Of course, I still like Campbell. He just had to learn how to work. He was so physically gifted, he didn't have to work at the U. And, I'm not sure anyone ever suggested it to him. That wasn't exactly a bastion of discipline.
I think Johnson's going to turn out to be OK. He's a guy with great tools, but to your point, never really put it together. I think he's going to be another lanky end. If he works his ass off he'll be Derrick Burgess. But I'm thinking he might end up nicked up frequently if he doesn't have the discipline to bulk up. It's hard to say though. He's a great 3rd/4th round pick. That's exactly the kind of chance you want to take.
But, I'm really interested to see Dunlap this season.
-jj
I think Johnson's going to turn out to be OK. He's a guy with great tools, but to your point, never really put it together. I think he's going to be another lanky end. If he works his ass off he'll be Derrick Burgess. But I'm thinking he might end up nicked up frequently if he doesn't have the discipline to bulk up. It's hard to say though. He's a great 3rd/4th round pick. That's exactly the kind of chance you want to take.
In Cinci's case, they may have been better off getting their future center in the 3rd round (Antoine Caldwell) and a pass rusher in the 4th (Victor Butler?). But I agree about picking up great tools guys on Day 2 (or 3...whatever it is now). That said, you want to avoid "don't give a sh*t" guys, like Alan Branch.
I've read articles taking both sides on Michael Johnson: some say he's soft, others claim he was playing with a sports hernia last year. Unfortunately, it's hard to get to the truth on any of this stuff.
I guess we'll get an answer on the field over the next few years.
But, I'm really interested to see Dunlap this season.
Me too. Also looking forward to watching the other 5-6 guys on that defense who could be future 1st round picks.
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wat about tim tebow
He's not up there because he isnt first round talent
Dawgfanforever88 said:
He's not up there because he isnt first round talentRight. I mean, in the past we have had these great college QBs whose game did not translate to the pros. Tommy Frazier and Eric Crouch from Nebraska come to mind.
And riddle me this: In the last 30 years here are the Quarterbacks who have won the Heisman Trophy:
Erich Crouch, Nebraska
Jason White, Oklahoma
Chris Weinke, FSU
Danny Wuerffel, Florida
Charlie White, FSU
Gino Torretta, Miami
Andre Ware, Houston
Matt Leinert, USC
Troy Smith, Ohio St.
Vinny Testaverde, Miami
Doug Flutie, Boston College
(plus Tebow and Bradford who are still in school)
The book is still out on Leinert and Smith who are now backups. All the others are now out of the game. Flutie had a somewhat spotty pro career (he was very underrated in fact).
The only quality pro of this bunch has been Vinny Interceptaverde....and he didn't get that nickname for nothing.
That means of course that the track record isn't good for Tebow and Bradford. Perhaps they will break out of the mold.
I personally think the Colt McCoy would be the prime QB candidate right now.
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Colt McCoy had a 76% completion percentage even with no real running game last year...unreal. He will be a GREAT Qb in the Nfl. I have no doubts at all. I've not said that since I called out Cutler a few years ago. McCoy will be better because his work ethic an attitude are impeccable. Dude is a Baller!
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Dawgfanforever88 said:
He's not up there because he isnt first round talentThat is where you are wrong.
He is first round talent. It just depends on if a team is willing to be the trend setter and scrap all this "WildDawg" stuff and just make it the base O.
Someone is going to do it sooner or later, win, and then everyone is going to be looking for qbs who can fit the new wave of the NFL.
Nobody can tell me Tebow isn't first round talent.
Did i make you happy Alo??
I do admit he might not be drafted there, and that is a shame. If he is there in round 2, the Browns better take him. He is WAY better than ANY qb we have on our team.
He is going to work out from under center a good deal this year just to satisfy the needs of the old school football thinkers.
The era of the drop back QB is about done. You might as well catch the wave early because in 4-5 years, colleges won't have any drop back QBs to recruit.
That is where you are wrong.
He is first round talent. It just depends on if a team is willing to be the trend setter and scrap all this "WildDawg" stuff and just make it the base O.
Someone is going to do it sooner or later, win, and then everyone is going to be looking for qbs who can fit the new wave of the NFL.
Nobody can tell me Tebow isn't first round talent.
Did i make you happy Alo??
I do admit he might not be drafted there, and that is a shame. If he is there in round 2, the Browns better take him. He is WAY better than ANY qb we have on our team.
He is going to work out from under center a good deal this year just to satisfy the needs of the old school football thinkers.
The era of the drop back QB is about done. You might as well catch the wave early because in 4-5 years, colleges won't have any drop back QBs to recruit.
I think that is highly speculative. Kiper, Scout.com, etc. etc. all these other services that have a decent track record don't rate him high on pro potential. I don't know if you are claiming that you know something they don't. Certainly they could be wrong. After all, we all go back to the proverbial "Tom Brady was only a 6th round pick" example to see where everyone missed on something. And of course the record of first round QB flops is legion. Still, where there is smoke their is fire.
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GAY BUCKEYE ALERT
Pryor will be what Peens is talking about, but I don't see it becoming commonplace. Pryor is a freak.
GAY BUCKEYE ALERT
Pryor will be what Peens is talking about, but I don't see it becoming commonplace. Pryor is a freak.
OK, well a Mike Vick type QB can bring a team some success, but when was the last time a guy like that led his team to the Super Bowl? Win or lose.
I don't think you can call McNabb that type of QB. Certainly there have been mobile QBs, like McNabb, Steve Young, Elway and others, but really, your most successful winning QBs have been more the dropback type. Brady,P. Manning, E. Manning Warner, Big Gay Ben has escapability but he is no WildDawg type guy, and many others.
Yes, I think the pro game would have to change considerably to allow a Vick, Tebow, Pryor type QB to be the norm of a championship caliber QB.
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@inspecta said:
I think it all depends on how the offense is run. Michael Vick was supposed to revolutionize the position, but then it became apparent he was just a glorified running back.If you're gonna have a hybrid they better be good as hell in both aspects of the game, running and passing. That's what made Steve Young so dangerous, and Elway. Those were both great passers who wouldn't blink an eye taking the ball and running 20-25 yards down the field when all the DB's were down field in coverage.
It's funny we have this conversation because my buddy and I were talking about this in the late 90's (no shit). We talked about having an offense that consisted of having two QB's lining up in the backfield, both who could run and both who could pass. It would create fits for defenses. Imagine snapping to one QB who rolls out to the right with the defense in persuit, only to toss the ball back across the field (still behind LOS) back to your other QB, who then makes a snap decision to run the ball outright or pass the ball. Imagine having to chase that shit for 60 minutes as a defensive player? Of course execution would be essential. If the defense tries to take away the pass back to the other QB, then that means they have players dedicated to stopping your 2nd QB, which would leave the 1st QB free to run with it or pass the ball.
I have a notebook full of plays with this offense drawn up on it. Usually the formation is two QB's in the shotgun, with two TE and two WR, a pretty balanced formation. You can leave TE in to block to pick up blitzes, but this offense absolutely loves the blitz because it can beat the blitz with quick passes.
The one offense I do NOT like though is that A-11 bullshit that they're running in some high schools. It doesn't even look like the game of football and I thank God those formations are illegal in the NFL, and I pray they stay illegal.
Didn't the Ravens try a little of this sort of thing with Troy Smith and Fluke-o in the same backfield?
And, I suspect in Philly this year they may try some of it with McNabb and Vick.
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But Tebow may not even play QB at the next level.
The fact of the matter is you simply can't be a passing/running generalist and play QB in the NFL. The athletes you are facing are too big, too fast, too smart, too agile for a generalist. So, you have to be an ELITE passer. (Just read this board.
) What I'm telling you is there is no way you'll see the college ranks churn out 32 QB's who are both ELITE passers and ELITE running backs.That's what's required. Vick was probably the closest we've seen and he didn't revolutionize anything AND there's only one of him.
I don't put Elway, Tarkington, Young, McNabb in that category. They are/were opportunistic runners. You aren't building a game plan that requires 5, 10, or more rushes from them in a game.
Again, I question if we'll ever see one, let alone many, QB's who are:
- ELITE passers
- ELITE rushers
- Durable enough to handle both roles
Not as long a the rules are what the rules are and guys like Ray Lewis, Polawannahaircut, and Mario Williams are on the other side of the line of scrimmage. The NFL requires specialists because of the extreme skill and ability of the athletes. College requires the same, albeit at a lesser level, so a Tebow can thrive at that level.
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Colt McCoy had a 76% completion percentage even with no real running game last year...unreal. He will be a GREAT Qb in the Nfl. I have no doubts at all. I've not said that since I called out Cutler a few years ago. McCoy will be better because his work ethic an attitude are impeccable. Dude is a Baller!
Colt McCoy had a 76% completion percentage even with no real running game last year...unreal. He will be a GREAT Qb in the Nfl. I have no doubts at all. I've not said that since I called out Cutler a few years ago. McCoy will be better because his work ethic an attitude are impeccable. Dude is a Baller!
Since I don't like Tebow much personally, and I don't want anyone to match Archie's dual Heisman record, I will vote for McCoy if he performs up to the standard he has set thus far.
(Past Heisman winners have a vote right?.....oh, wait, the Heisman Trophy wasn't instituted yet when The Gipper played ball....so I guess they won't let me vote )
Well, do you think if the Heisman had been instituted when George Gipp played that he would have won it?
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Colt McCoy had a 76% completion percentage even with no real running game last year...unreal. He will be a GREAT Qb in the Nfl. I have no doubts at all. I've not said that since I called out Cutler a few years ago. McCoy will be better because his work ethic an attitude are impeccable. Dude is a Baller!
Colt McCoy had a 76% completion percentage even with no real running game last year...unreal. He will be a GREAT Qb in the Nfl. I have no doubts at all. I've not said that since I called out Cutler a few years ago. McCoy will be better because his work ethic an attitude are impeccable. Dude is a Baller!
He's a great person and a good leader, but arm strength could be an issue. When he throws off his back foot, he gets almost nothing on the ball. That led to picks in the Oklahoma State and Kansas games (the one against Kansas was called back on a penalty). We'll see if he improves this year, but I expect he'll draw more interest from WCO teams.
As for Tebow, that windup release is going to be an issue. During last year's LSU game, safety Harry Coleman was able to deflect a couple passes because he had so much time to break on the ball. And Coleman's not all that special a safety: imagine what guys like Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu will do to Tebow's game.
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Gipp, you forgot about Carson Palmer (Heisman winner in '02).
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I think that is highly speculative.
It is...and homer tinted as well...but that is what I know. I know you can win with that guy on your side.
I have seen two national championships in the last three years and while early, at this point, I like my chances for a 3rd in four.
The only question with Tim is can he play under center? That's it.
Word is this season he is going to play under center a good deal of the time. If he manages that, which i feel he will, watch him move up to the top of the 1st round.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
And Coleman's not all that special a safety: imagine what guys like Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu will do to Tebow's game.
My point exactly about the NFL being a highly specialized game requiring ELITE skills. Way too much to ask for a blend of Tom Brady/Adrian Peterson in one human being.
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I think that is highly speculative.
It is...and homer tinted as well...but that is what I know. I know you can win with that guy on your side.
I have seen two national championships in the last three years and while early, at this point, I like my chances for a 3rd in four.
The only question with Tim is can he play under center? That's it.
Word is this season he is going to play under center a good deal of the time. If he manages that, which i feel he will, watch him move up to the top of the 1st round.
It is...and homer tinted as well...but that is what I know. I know you can win with that guy on your side.
I have seen two national championships in the last three years and while early, at this point, I like my chances for a 3rd in four.
The only question with Tim is can he play under center? That's it.
Word is this season he is going to play under center a good deal of the time. If he manages that, which i feel he will, watch him move up to the top of the 1st round.
You know that you can win a college game with that guy on your side. But then half those Heisman winning QBs that didn't do anything in the pros could win you a college game with them on your side. What does Tebow bring that Eric Crouch didn't? Not much if anything.
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Aloysius said:
Gipp, you forgot about Carson Palmer (Heisman winner in '02).Oops, OK. And he is about the best of the lot, fair to say. 'Cept maybe Vinny?
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Colt McCoy had a 76% completion percentage even with no real running game last year...unreal. He will be a GREAT Qb in the Nfl. I have no doubts at all. I've not said that since I called out Cutler a few years ago. McCoy will be better because his work ethic an attitude are impeccable. Dude is a Baller!
He's a great person and a good leader, but arm strength could be an issue. When he throws off his back foot, he gets almost nothing on the ball. That led to picks in the Oklahoma State and Kansas games (the one against Kansas was called back on a penalty). We'll see if he improves this year, but I expect he'll draw more interest from WCO teams.
As for Tebow, that windup release is going to be an issue. During last year's LSU game, safety Harry Coleman was able to deflect a couple passes because he had so much time to break on the ball. And Coleman's not all that special a safety: imagine what guys like Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu will do to Tebow's game.
Aloysius said:
He's a great person and a good leader, but arm strength could be an issue. When he throws off his back foot, he gets almost nothing on the ball. That led to picks in the Oklahoma State and Kansas games (the one against Kansas was called back on a penalty). We'll see if he improves this year, but I expect he'll draw more interest from WCO teams.As for Tebow, that windup release is going to be an issue. During last year's LSU game, safety Harry Coleman was able to deflect a couple passes because he had so much time to break on the ball. And Coleman's not all that special a safety: imagine what guys like Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu will do to Tebow's game.
I've had the chance to watch him since he was a freshman and regardless of what the scouts say on arm strength, I say he has a great arm but more importantly accurate,consistent,evasive and makes big plays with feet when needed i.e doesn't take sacks but the most important to me is plays huge in big games, wins big games and is the epitomy of leader on and off field. If I have the #1 overall next year and I have ANY questions at QB he is my #1 overall pick without question....over Bradford.
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