Mangini. PICK A DAMN QB ALREADY!!!!

AZBrowns

@drunkandstoopid said:
It just amazes me that the players who sucked in '06 and '08 suddenly became good for 10 wins in '07, and DA was lucky enough to be along for the ride.
You know, I don't really care who QBs the team this year, but I'll stick up for any QB who's getting knocked when there's a whole lot of blame to be spread elsewhere. DA is nowhere as bad as you and a few others paint him to be.

Does the word "injuries", mean anything to you? If you recall, Braylon Edwards tore his ACL in LATE 2005. That's an injury that takes a year to recover from. Kellen Winslow, who actually tied the team record for receptions in a season the year BEFORE DA started all of those games in 2007, didn't get significantly better with DA. In 2006, this team didn't have Jamal Lewis. In 2006 this team didn't have Thomas or Steinbach.

Even with all of that in play, Braylon still needed to play out of his mind that season for Anderson to even sniff a 56% completion rate.

In 2008, the team didn't give up as many sacks with DA under center as you think, but was dealing with injuries in and out of that line all season. BRaylon was injured in camp, but sucked no matter who was throwing him the ball and when you do factor in all of his drops, Anderson's numbers really don't improve drastically enough to reflect a repeat performance of the year befvore.

That's what you DA guys seem to forget - Browns injuries, no Joe Thomas, Eric Steinbach or Jamal Lewis. Braylon Edwards had ZERO explosiveness in 2006 because he was playing most of the season with a bum ACL.

These are legit factors and points more to the case that everything fell into place for Anderson in 2007. Yet, when 2008 hits and he screws up, every excuse in the book is made for him.

Drunkandstoopid

@azbrowns said:
Does the word "injuries", mean anything to you? If you recall, Braylon Edwards tore his ACL in LATE 2005. That's an injury that takes a year to recover from. Kellen Winslow, who actually tied the team record for receptions in a season the year BEFORE DA started all of thiose games means DA didn't do squat for him. In 2006, this team didn't have Jamal Lewis. In 2006 this team didn't have Thomas or Steinbach.
Even with all of that in play, Braylon still needed to play out of his mind that season for Anderson to even sniff a 56% completion rate.

In 2008, the team didn't give up as many sacks with DA under center as you think, but was dealing with injuries in and out of that line all season. BRaylon was injured in camp, but sucked no matter who was throwing him the ball and when you do factor in all of his drops, Anderson's numbers really don't improve drastically enough to reflect a repeat performance of the year befvore.

That's what you DA guys seem to forget - Browns injuries, no Joe Thomas, Eric Steinbach or Jamal Lewis. Braylon Edwards had ZERO explosiveness in 2006 because he was playing most of the season with a bum ACL.

These are legit factors and points more to the case that everything fell into place for Anderson in 2007. Yet, when 2008 hits and he screws up, every excuse in the book is made for him.

You just kind of made my point. DA was not surrounded by healthy players in '08, while coming off a concussion himself. BE was coming off his heel and 3-4 weeks of no practice, our #2 receiver was named Steptoe... lots of misfortune at the start of the year, the team's performance doesn't all hang on the head of DA.

AZBrowns

@drunkandstoopid said:
You just kind of made my point. DA was not surrounded by healthy players in '08, while coming off a concussion himself. BE was coming off his heel and 3-4 weeks of no practice, our #2 receiver was named Steptoe... lots of misfortune at the start of the year, the team's performance doesn't all hang on the head of DA.

See, but you're missing the point. A good quarterback in the NFL can at least overcome that to the point where they won't be ranked outside of the top 30 in QB rating at the end of the year. Anderson has yet to prove he can. When he plays loose, he can light a defense up like he did against the Giants last year. However, when the pressure is on him, he folds like a cheap suit. It's not like a gradual fall off for DA either. It's completely night and day.

All he had to do was manage the offense by utilizing the short route more often and learning a little touch, but he hasn't and therefore, when you take away his long game, he is simply a bad quarterback at this point.

Tobalaz

You know what scares me?

If Quinn can't clearly pull away DA (and we all saw how pathetic DA was last season and the last few games the season before AND the probowl) then we can safely assume that we don't have a real qb on this roster.

If we've got to draft another one I'll be PO'ed.

And WHY don't we have any vet qbs in here to help all the young guys?

And isn't our current qb coach the guy who farked Couch up? And we want him to DEVELOP 3 young guys?!

As the start of the season gets closer I'm getting closer to an all out panic attack.

Drunkandstoopid

@tobalaz said:
You know what scares me?
If Quinn can't clearly pull away DA (and we all saw how pathetic DA was last season and the last few games the season before AND the probowl) then we can safely assume that we don't have a real qb on this roster.

If we've got to draft another one I'll be PO'ed.

And WHY don't we have any vet qbs in here to help all the young guys?

And isn't our current qb coach the guy who farked Couch up? And we want him to DEVELOP 3 young guys?!

As the start of the season gets closer I'm getting closer to an all out panic attack.

I can't believe some people bring up the Pro bowl, like it really matters. I watched it, Anderson was thrown in when the team was behind, and it's pretty obvious he was told to air it out, not "manage" it. He had a bad rating for the game @ 34.6. The thing is, 2 years earlier a QB named Tom Brady had a 21.8 passer's rating in the Pro Bowl... he must be pathetic too if Pro Bowl results count for anything.

Riffer X

@drunkandstoopid said:
I can't believe some people bring up the Pro bowl, like it really matters. I watched it, Anderson was thrown in when the team was behind, and it's pretty obvious he was told to air it out, not "manage" it. He had a bad rating for the game @ 34.6. The thing is, 2 years earlier a QB named Tom Brady had a 21.8 passer's rating in the Pro Bowl... he must be pathetic too if Pro Bowl results count for anything.

Drunky I think it's sweet how you guys love to use the term Pro Bowler when describing your Derek Bear, but then turn around and throw a hissy when someone recalls how putrid, rancid and unadulterated pitiful he was in that game. He was so freaking bad that guys were looking around shaking their heads at one another.

Does it matter? Absolutely, cuz it showed exactly how bad he can be when he's not on. He was horrifically inaccurate and chucking the ball around like a total moron.

He actually embarrassed me as a Browns fan that day........and I think Winslow and Edwards were a little taken aback themselves.

Tobalaz

@drunkandstoopid said:
I can't believe some people bring up the Pro bowl, like it really matters. I watched it, Anderson was thrown in when the team was behind, and it's pretty obvious he was told to air it out, not "manage" it. He had a bad rating for the game @ 34.6. The thing is, 2 years earlier a QB named Tom Brady had a 21.8 passer's rating in the Pro Bowl... he must be pathetic too if Pro Bowl results count for anything.

OK, then take out the Pro Bowl and he still sucked more ass than a gay guy at a salad tossing convention for a season and a half straight.

The Pro Bowl jusy happened to be IDEAL circumstances and he still choked

cmac12

Pretty sure he did not suck for all of 2007. And if you are saying a season and half that must be what you mean since he only played half a season last year. Or if you want to count last year as a full year then BQ sucked for a season.

I know BQ only played "one" healthy game last year, funny how his injured games don't count but DA's do. I think the people that say the Browns do not have a QB they can count on in camp is far more accurate than BQ is a Star. BQ got a 104 rating against a horrible and I mean horrible pass defense of the Denver Broncos and then in the next game and a half he drove that rating down to 66.6. I know, but he hurt his finger. Well the same coaching staff that thought DA should play with a concussion is the same coaching staff that thought BQ should play with a hurt finger.

I don't think anything bad of BQ for wanting to play injured just like I don't think anything bad for DA wanting to play with a concussion. After all you want your starting QB to want to play and to think that the team is always better off with them in the game. That is a win for both QBs as far as character goes.

This is DA's last 8 games of 2007 5 wins and 3 losses. For falling apart and sucking that is not bad for a team that has not won allot of games since a return to the NFL.

Everybody says they got the book on DA in the second half of the year. Please notice that in the bad weather conditions that are often seen the the Ohio area that the Browns were on average throwing the ball 33.75 times a game. I think if you are on average throwing the ball 34 times a game I think the defense can pretty much figure what is coming regardless of the QB. In the horrible conditions in Cincy the Browns threw the ball 48 times ( Yes I know DA had 2 ints at the end of the half that were horrible). Yes DA did not play well at the end of the year but he did lead the Browns to 5 - 3 record (5 - 2 when everybody says he played well) and had to pretty much win or lose the games on his arm.

Do notice that the games that the coaches had DA "manage" the game by throwing fewer than 30 times the Browns went 3 - 0. The games that the coaches called over 40 passes the Browns were 0 - 2 and games where DA had to throw only 35 to 38 times the Browns went 2 - 1.

CLE 16 35 123 3 0 16 2 5 0 6 Steelers Loss

CLE 24 38 274 0 1 50 4 -4 1 2 Ravens Win

CLE 24 35 253 2 1 25 Texans Win

CLE 21 41 304 2 2 67 2 10 0 10 Cardnials Loss

CLE 16 29 185 2 1 45 3 3 0 5 Jets Win

CLE 9 24 137 0 0 25 1 0 0 0 Buffalo Win

CLE 29 48 251 2 4 22 1 6 0 6 Bengals Loss

CLE 11 20 152 1 1 45 1 0 0 0 49ers Win

As far as 2008 goes DA started the season with a concussion and without his receivers, except for BE which at the beginning of last season he might had been better off without. Now IF you took out the start of the season when DA was effected by the concussion these are his stats for the final 6 games he started.

CLE 15 24 138 1 1 20 4 11 0 11 Cincy Win

CLE 18 29 310 2 0 70 4 -2 0 0 NYG WIN

CLE 14 37 136 1 0 20 3 4 0 3 Wash Loss

CLE 14 27 246 1 0 53 Jags Win

CLE 17 33 219 2 1 28 2 8 0 6 Ravens Loss

CLE 16 26 110 0 0 20 2 5 0 3 Colts Loss - After coming in for BQ the week before and NOT sparking the Browns.

In a season the Browns went 4 - 12 (3 starts by DA were losses at the beginning of the year with a concussion) in DA's last 6 starts the Browns went 3 wins and 3 losses and in the 5 games previous to being benched DA was 3 wins and 2 losses. Not trying to say that DA had a good year last year, because he didn't. But if you look at his healthy starts (like people like to do with BQ) then he was really not that bad with a rating in the 80's.

kosar_win

cmac12 - I think its honorable that you are trying to level the QB debate.

The truth is, nobody knows how either will perform - it's a long time since DA or BQ played in a regular season game, and they've both been through a rigorous training camp. Both have probably improved considerably, so I say we leave the QB debate alone (unlikely) and let Mangini decide.

? mz.

Pretty low, Z.

At this point, I'm just looking for a pulse.

Drunkandstoopid

@shepwrite said:
If Quinn were coming off 18 starts with a 69 passer rating, this conversation would be COMPLETELY different. He's coming off one healthy start with a 104 passer rating.

And a healthy preseason start with a 44 something... which pretty much matches every other game he's played in so far.

Legacy Fan

Z -

I think shep is probably referring more to progress than results in a meaningless August game. Because the result of our magical 2007 season is that we weren't playing in January.

AZBrowns

@drunkandstoopid said:
And a healthy preseason start with a 44 something... which pretty much matches every other game he's played in so far.

LOL, you want people to still give DA a chance and you are trying to set a "par" for Brady Quinn, who hasn't started but a couple of games in his career.

Keep twisting....

Drunkandstoopid

@azbrowns said:
LOL, you want people to still give DA a chance and you are trying to set a "par" for Brady Quinn, who hasn't started but a couple of games in his career.
Keep twisting....

My point is that Shep likes to tout BQ's 104 against a team that gave up an average rating of 98/99 last season as proof that BQ's a superstar in waiting. He's done little yet to prove anything. He might pan out, but he's likely gonna have a lot of mishaps along the way. Hopefully the guys here who've been so critical of DA will hold their criticisms when BQ does the same stuff.... then again they'll probably be too embarrassed to speak when they realize it isn't just DA that can't have consistent superstar level performances.

cmac12

I am not argueing that DA should be the starter. I was trying to point out that at least statistically DA did not perform that poorly over the last 17 games if you take into account his concussion (first 3 games last year), bad weather conditions and BAD play calling (34 passes a game with 3 games out of 5 with 38 or more passes in the latter part of the year). And I am making that statement in context of him being a young QB and not a seasoned veteran.

I left out the concussion games because several people on this board like to leave out BQs injured games. And if you only want to compare BQ after 3 starts to DA after 3 starts (that was in 2006 pre 2007) then you have very similar stats for both of them. But funny part is that DA actually had a higher completion % than BQ and according to Pluto Da had a 63% completion percentage on short passes compared to BQ at 54%.

I understand why people want to move on from DA, so be it. But to this point BQ has mirrored DA very closely on overall production (this includes last year BQ 66.6 rating and DA 66.5 rating). And if BQ starts off this year like DA did in 2007 then I think that everybody would be very happy. As a matter of fact I think that if BQ goes 5 - 3 in his last eight games of the year that most people will be very happy.

And I have not looked it up but I would bet there are many many Maxwell Trophy Winners that went on to have very bad NFL careers.

What I would agree with you on is that BQ will be the starter this year. But I don't think I would be too excited about a QB that can not do more than slightly better than the 32nd ranked passer over the last 18 starts (Take your word for it, but I think last week showed how much QB rating is worth). Especially when to this point BQ has mirrored DA, at least in overall stats.

And if wins are what matters since 2007 5 - 2 first half of year 5 - 3 second half of year 2008 0 - 3 (with concussion) 3 - 2 (Benched for BQ) 0 -1 (after BQ injured and then injured himself, great OL that year). And yes the coaching staff is the same one that started DA with a concussion as started BQ with the injured finger. If it counts for BQ then it counts for DA, can't have it both ways.

But again, I understand that you want to see what BQ can do and that is fair and I have said before is probably the right thing to do. Just I don't think DA sucks as much as many have said (not all just many).

Riffer X

Zombo said:
Brady Quinn is playing excellent football? We still haven't scored. He threw the ball away in the end zone. There is video evidence of that.
How is anyone on an offense that hasn't scored since November playing excellent football?

How low have our standards fallen?

Zombo

This is what Flugs and I talk about on the phone and it ain't whispering sweet nothings. You just brought up our standards falling? Are you freaking serious Z?

We are the ones holding a higher standard than DA over 27 starts. We (amongst many, many others) want a better QB than what we've had and we certainly won't know until Queenie gets his shot at it.

It's about a better player at the QB position giving us a chance to be a decent football team. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think he's going to be a pretty good player, but he needs his shot.

cmac12

@inspecta said:
This post just goes to show how little you know about Browns fans. We don't tolerate shitty play at the QB position, and while some of us may give a leash, in the end we will come down on BQ just as hard as we did DA if after 20 something starts he's still playing shitty.
Nobody on this board has loyalty to BQ that surpasses that of the team. NOBODY.

I can agree that you might not. But people started coming down on DA long before 20 starts. It was much closer to right after the Seahawk game. In those 8 starts DA went 5 - 3. He did not play well but as I posted earlier 3 - 0 when he "Managed" the game, 0 - 2 when he threw the ball over 40 times which is of course what you should be doing in the middle of winter in the midwest. DA played horrible against Cincy, can't argue with that. But why did he throw the ball over 40 times (those 2 ints at end of half all on DA by way).

I agree that it is time to give BQ a shot, I just don't think DA is as bad as many believe. He is still young and with good coaching he will improve. It is now BQs turn to keep DA on the bench. The ball was in DAs court last year and he did not step up, I agree with that. Now it is BQ's turn to step up, lets see how he does over a full season. If there is still a question about who the starter should be next year then it is time to draft a new QB.

Drunkandstoopid

@cmac12 said:
And I have not looked it up but I would bet there are many many Maxwell Trophy Winners that went on to have very bad NFL careers.

The Browns had two of them on the depth chart BEHIND that lousy QB DA. I recall Shep touting BQ's winning of the Maxwell many times this last 2 years, eerily silent on the fact that Dorsey also won the Maxwell and being a Maxwell finalist more times than Quinn.

Vegasdogg

@hiwaygal said:
(Although, I really think that GB game the other day left no doubt...but I'm just a casual observer.)

I have seen you defend yourself a little bit here and there for having an opinion. We're all casual observers and you are on point most of the time, so no need to qualify what you have to say. I am not going for conscending here, it is just that you know your shit, so throw it up there and have at it.

hammertime

@shepwrite said:
I'm just watching, Z. He looked really good. He didn't have the penalty, he didn't miss the kick, he didn't miss the hot read, and he didn't drop the ball in the end zone. Seriously, he should've been 9 of 10 with a TD. It's a fake game, so it really doesn't matter, but he looked really good. He looked really good in the scrimmage. He's looked really good in practice lately.
That's really good.

Shep

I do like the 'few' posts you make and the 'occaisional' thread here and there. But in order to keep my dinner down, i may need to put you on ignore till regular season begins.

If i had my dead horse icon handy, it would be sizzling hot at this point.

Dano- carry on.