Mangini. PICK A DAMN QB ALREADY!!!!
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Pretty sure he did not suck for all of 2007. And if you are saying a season and half that must be what you mean since he only played half a season last year. Or if you want to count last year as a full year then BQ sucked for a season.
I know BQ only played "one" healthy game last year, funny how his injured games don't count but DA's do. I think the people that say the Browns do not have a QB they can count on in camp is far more accurate than BQ is a Star. BQ got a 104 rating against a horrible and I mean horrible pass defense of the Denver Broncos and then in the next game and a half he drove that rating down to 66.6. I know, but he hurt his finger. Well the same coaching staff that thought DA should play with a concussion is the same coaching staff that thought BQ should play with a hurt finger.
I don't think anything bad of BQ for wanting to play injured just like I don't think anything bad for DA wanting to play with a concussion. After all you want your starting QB to want to play and to think that the team is always better off with them in the game. That is a win for both QBs as far as character goes.
This is DA's last 8 games of 2007 5 wins and 3 losses. For falling apart and sucking that is not bad for a team that has not won allot of games since a return to the NFL.
Everybody says they got the book on DA in the second half of the year. Please notice that in the bad weather conditions that are often seen the the Ohio area that the Browns were on average throwing the ball 33.75 times a game. I think if you are on average throwing the ball 34 times a game I think the defense can pretty much figure what is coming regardless of the QB. In the horrible conditions in Cincy the Browns threw the ball 48 times ( Yes I know DA had 2 ints at the end of the half that were horrible). Yes DA did not play well at the end of the year but he did lead the Browns to 5 - 3 record (5 - 2 when everybody says he played well) and had to pretty much win or lose the games on his arm.
Do notice that the games that the coaches had DA "manage" the game by throwing fewer than 30 times the Browns went 3 - 0. The games that the coaches called over 40 passes the Browns were 0 - 2 and games where DA had to throw only 35 to 38 times the Browns went 2 - 1.
CLE 16 35 123 3 0 16 2 5 0 6 Steelers Loss
CLE 24 38 274 0 1 50 4 -4 1 2 Ravens Win
CLE 24 35 253 2 1 25 Texans Win
CLE 21 41 304 2 2 67 2 10 0 10 Cardnials Loss
CLE 16 29 185 2 1 45 3 3 0 5 Jets Win
CLE 9 24 137 0 0 25 1 0 0 0 Buffalo Win
CLE 29 48 251 2 4 22 1 6 0 6 Bengals Loss
CLE 11 20 152 1 1 45 1 0 0 0 49ers Win
As far as 2008 goes DA started the season with a concussion and without his receivers, except for BE which at the beginning of last season he might had been better off without. Now IF you took out the start of the season when DA was effected by the concussion these are his stats for the final 6 games he started.
CLE 15 24 138 1 1 20 4 11 0 11 Cincy Win
CLE 18 29 310 2 0 70 4 -2 0 0 NYG WIN
CLE 14 37 136 1 0 20 3 4 0 3 Wash Loss
CLE 14 27 246 1 0 53 Jags Win
CLE 17 33 219 2 1 28 2 8 0 6 Ravens Loss
CLE 16 26 110 0 0 20 2 5 0 3 Colts Loss - After coming in for BQ the week before and NOT sparking the Browns.
In a season the Browns went 4 - 12 (3 starts by DA were losses at the beginning of the year with a concussion) in DA's last 6 starts the Browns went 3 wins and 3 losses and in the 5 games previous to being benched DA was 3 wins and 2 losses. Not trying to say that DA had a good year last year, because he didn't. But if you look at his healthy starts (like people like to do with BQ) then he was really not that bad with a rating in the 80's.
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cmac12 - I think its honorable that you are trying to level the QB debate.
The truth is, nobody knows how either will perform - it's a long time since DA or BQ played in a regular season game, and they've both been through a rigorous training camp. Both have probably improved considerably, so I say we leave the QB debate alone (unlikely) and let Mangini decide.
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@shepwrite said:
If Quinn were coming off 18 starts with a 69 passer rating, this conversation would be COMPLETELY different. He's coming off one healthy start with a 104 passer rating.And a healthy preseason start with a 44 something... which pretty much matches every other game he's played in so far.
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Z -
I think shep is probably referring more to progress than results in a meaningless August game. Because the result of our magical 2007 season is that we weren't playing in January.
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@shepwrite said:
If Quinn were coming off 18 starts with a 69 passer rating, this conversation would be COMPLETELY different. He's coming off one healthy start with a 104 passer rating.And a healthy preseason start with a 44 something... which pretty much matches every other game he's played in so far.
And a healthy preseason start with a 44 something... which pretty much matches every other game he's played in so far.
LOL, you want people to still give DA a chance and you are trying to set a "par" for Brady Quinn, who hasn't started but a couple of games in his career.
Keep twisting....
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And a healthy preseason start with a 44 something... which pretty much matches every other game he's played in so far.
LOL, you want people to still give DA a chance and you are trying to set a "par" for Brady Quinn, who hasn't started but a couple of games in his career.
Keep twisting....
LOL, you want people to still give DA a chance and you are trying to set a "par" for Brady Quinn, who hasn't started but a couple of games in his career.
Keep twisting....
My point is that Shep likes to tout BQ's 104 against a team that gave up an average rating of 98/99 last season as proof that BQ's a superstar in waiting. He's done little yet to prove anything. He might pan out, but he's likely gonna have a lot of mishaps along the way. Hopefully the guys here who've been so critical of DA will hold their criticisms when BQ does the same stuff.... then again they'll probably be too embarrassed to speak when they realize it isn't just DA that can't have consistent superstar level performances.
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I am not argueing that DA should be the starter. I was trying to point out that at least statistically DA did not perform that poorly over the last 17 games if you take into account his concussion (first 3 games last year), bad weather conditions and BAD play calling (34 passes a game with 3 games out of 5 with 38 or more passes in the latter part of the year). And I am making that statement in context of him being a young QB and not a seasoned veteran.
I left out the concussion games because several people on this board like to leave out BQs injured games. And if you only want to compare BQ after 3 starts to DA after 3 starts (that was in 2006 pre 2007) then you have very similar stats for both of them. But funny part is that DA actually had a higher completion % than BQ and according to Pluto Da had a 63% completion percentage on short passes compared to BQ at 54%.
I understand why people want to move on from DA, so be it. But to this point BQ has mirrored DA very closely on overall production (this includes last year BQ 66.6 rating and DA 66.5 rating). And if BQ starts off this year like DA did in 2007 then I think that everybody would be very happy. As a matter of fact I think that if BQ goes 5 - 3 in his last eight games of the year that most people will be very happy.
And I have not looked it up but I would bet there are many many Maxwell Trophy Winners that went on to have very bad NFL careers.
What I would agree with you on is that BQ will be the starter this year. But I don't think I would be too excited about a QB that can not do more than slightly better than the 32nd ranked passer over the last 18 starts (Take your word for it, but I think last week showed how much QB rating is worth). Especially when to this point BQ has mirrored DA, at least in overall stats.
And if wins are what matters since 2007 5 - 2 first half of year 5 - 3 second half of year 2008 0 - 3 (with concussion) 3 - 2 (Benched for BQ) 0 -1 (after BQ injured and then injured himself, great OL that year). And yes the coaching staff is the same one that started DA with a concussion as started BQ with the injured finger. If it counts for BQ then it counts for DA, can't have it both ways.
But again, I understand that you want to see what BQ can do and that is fair and I have said before is probably the right thing to do. Just I don't think DA sucks as much as many have said (not all just many).
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Zombo said:
Brady Quinn is playing excellent football? We still haven't scored. He threw the ball away in the end zone. There is video evidence of that.How is anyone on an offense that hasn't scored since November playing excellent football?
How low have our standards fallen?
Zombo
This is what Flugs and I talk about on the phone and it ain't whispering sweet nothings. You just brought up our standards falling? Are you freaking serious Z?
We are the ones holding a higher standard than DA over 27 starts. We (amongst many, many others) want a better QB than what we've had and we certainly won't know until Queenie gets his shot at it.
It's about a better player at the QB position giving us a chance to be a decent football team. Nothing more, nothing less.
I think he's going to be a pretty good player, but he needs his shot.
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@inspecta said:
This post just goes to show how little you know about Browns fans. We don't tolerate shitty play at the QB position, and while some of us may give a leash, in the end we will come down on BQ just as hard as we did DA if after 20 something starts he's still playing shitty.Nobody on this board has loyalty to BQ that surpasses that of the team. NOBODY.
I can agree that you might not. But people started coming down on DA long before 20 starts. It was much closer to right after the Seahawk game. In those 8 starts DA went 5 - 3. He did not play well but as I posted earlier 3 - 0 when he "Managed" the game, 0 - 2 when he threw the ball over 40 times which is of course what you should be doing in the middle of winter in the midwest. DA played horrible against Cincy, can't argue with that. But why did he throw the ball over 40 times (those 2 ints at end of half all on DA by way).
I agree that it is time to give BQ a shot, I just don't think DA is as bad as many believe. He is still young and with good coaching he will improve. It is now BQs turn to keep DA on the bench. The ball was in DAs court last year and he did not step up, I agree with that. Now it is BQ's turn to step up, lets see how he does over a full season. If there is still a question about who the starter should be next year then it is time to draft a new QB.
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I am not argueing that DA should be the starter. I was trying to point out that at least statistically DA did not perform that poorly over the last 17 games if you take into account his concussion (first 3 games last year), bad weather conditions and BAD play calling (34 passes a game with 3 games out of 5 with 38 or more passes in the latter part of the year). And I am making that statement in context of him being a young QB and not a seasoned veteran.
I left out the concussion games because several people on this board like to leave out BQs injured games. And if you only want to compare BQ after 3 starts to DA after 3 starts (that was in 2006 pre 2007) then you have very similar stats for both of them. But funny part is that DA actually had a higher completion % than BQ and according to Pluto Da had a 63% completion percentage on short passes compared to BQ at 54%.
I understand why people want to move on from DA, so be it. But to this point BQ has mirrored DA very closely on overall production (this includes last year BQ 66.6 rating and DA 66.5 rating). And if BQ starts off this year like DA did in 2007 then I think that everybody would be very happy. As a matter of fact I think that if BQ goes 5 - 3 in his last eight games of the year that most people will be very happy.
And I have not looked it up but I would bet there are many many Maxwell Trophy Winners that went on to have very bad NFL careers.
What I would agree with you on is that BQ will be the starter this year. But I don't think I would be too excited about a QB that can not do more than slightly better than the 32nd ranked passer over the last 18 starts (Take your word for it, but I think last week showed how much QB rating is worth). Especially when to this point BQ has mirrored DA, at least in overall stats.
And if wins are what matters since 2007 5 - 2 first half of year 5 - 3 second half of year 2008 0 - 3 (with concussion) 3 - 2 (Benched for BQ) 0 -1 (after BQ injured and then injured himself, great OL that year). And yes the coaching staff is the same one that started DA with a concussion as started BQ with the injured finger. If it counts for BQ then it counts for DA, can't have it both ways.
But again, I understand that you want to see what BQ can do and that is fair and I have said before is probably the right thing to do. Just I don't think DA sucks as much as many have said (not all just many).
And I have not looked it up but I would bet there are many many Maxwell Trophy Winners that went on to have very bad NFL careers.
The Browns had two of them on the depth chart BEHIND that lousy QB DA. I recall Shep touting BQ's winning of the Maxwell many times this last 2 years, eerily silent on the fact that Dorsey also won the Maxwell and being a Maxwell finalist more times than Quinn.
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@hiwaygal said:
(Although, I really think that GB game the other day left no doubt...but I'm just a casual observer.)I have seen you defend yourself a little bit here and there for having an opinion. We're all casual observers and you are on point most of the time, so no need to qualify what you have to say. I am not going for conscending here, it is just that you know your shit, so throw it up there and have at it.
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@shepwrite said:
I'm just watching, Z. He looked really good. He didn't have the penalty, he didn't miss the kick, he didn't miss the hot read, and he didn't drop the ball in the end zone. Seriously, he should've been 9 of 10 with a TD. It's a fake game, so it really doesn't matter, but he looked really good. He looked really good in the scrimmage. He's looked really good in practice lately.That's really good.
Shep
I do like the 'few' posts you make and the 'occaisional' thread here and there. But in order to keep my dinner down, i may need to put you on ignore till regular season begins.
If i had my dead horse icon handy, it would be sizzling hot at this point.
Dano- carry on.
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Zombo said:
He should have been ... but he threw an interception in the end zone instead. It happened.Look, if you want to go the "getting over an injury" route, "learning a new system" route, or the "Braylon dropped the ball" route ... then the Anderson Camp has the same excuses.
If every Braylon drop is counted as a catch, and all ensuing turnovers after a drop are erased and replaced with TDs ... then what is Anderson's rating last year?
I understand Quinn moved the ball, says the right things and had some nice practices ... I just want him to show me a little more on gamedays. Like a touchdown or something.
When he goes out and looks like he is fully in command of this offense and that we are going to score a lot of points under his command ... then he will be named the starter and I will be really happy.
Can we just wait until he does it first?
Zombo
I'm so pumped for our first TD!!!
Sorry, i can't even fake excitement at this point. Let the guy start and get this holy hell of a preseason and rebuilding phase over with. My joy af RAC being gone has faded, i need more ammo and regular season is a ways away.
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Zombo said:
I just want him to show me a little more on gamedays. Like a touchdown or something.When he goes out and looks like he is fully in command of this offense and that we are going to score a lot of points under his command ... then he will be named the starter and I will be really happy.
First, why don't you give him a chance to show you on gamedays? You've seen what - 2 1/2 games worth? He did go out and score TD's or something.
Second, we are not going to score a lot of points this year. Our D needs to make up for some young mistakes and it won't, and our running game needs a ton of yards which it won't get. But expecting a lot of points? You're setting yourself up for disappointment with those crazy expectations.
Start simple: Run the ball and stop the run first. Then build the team off of that. The last thing we want is for our young QB to chuck it down the field left and right - that is not who he is right now, and that is not who we are right now. Not yet.
I just want competance at the position:
Run the offense, move the chains, lead the team, make some plays.
DO NOT try to be a savior. DO NOT try to put it all on your shoulders. DO NOT take stupid chances to make a play. DO NOT think more of your arm than what it is.
DO play within yourself. DO take what the defense gives you. DO study your ass off. DO be patient in your development.
Quinn does not have to be any other QB than who he is. I am not looking for the next Ryan or Flacco or Sanchez or Stafford. I am looking for Quinn.
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DA was worst at completing short passes last year, Quinn was worse just in fewer games. DA had the worst pass completion, Quinn was worse, just in fewer games. At least 2 of the passes that BE dropped were game changers that would had been easy TDs and one was against Baltimore that if he did not drop BQ would not had gotten the start against Denver.
Stop giving reasons why DA should not start and stick with the reasons that BQ should start. Stick with his performance this year, stick with he has played slightly better than DA in practice and had a much better preseason game.
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Zombo said:
I just am going to hold back my praise until he actually does it, that's all. I look forward to seeing it. I really do ... not being a dick here.I've always knew where you stood and I understand it. It is logical. Show me. I don't know if he has it, I just know DA can't overcome something. Not sure what it is, but it is a downer. Too many WTF drives, throws and games from him. And lets be honest if Quinn does the same thing we'll just let him take DA's spot while we look for yet another savior.
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@shepwrite said:
If Braylon doesn't drop the touchdown, the interception doesn't happen. Doesn't mean I don't think the interception was a gaffe -- it was -- I'm just putting some numbers behind my opinion that he looked really good. That's all.If Braylon doesn't drop the touchdown, the interception doesn't happen.... and the Browns win the Baltimore game in week 9 of '08 and the Browns are sitting at 4 and 4 with likely wins coming up over Denver and Buffalo.......
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@shepwrite said:
I'm just watching, Z. He looked really good. He didn't have the penalty, he didn't miss the kick, he didn't miss the hot read, and he didn't drop the ball in the end zone. Seriously, he should've been 9 of 10 with a TD. It's a fake game, so it really doesn't matter, but he looked really good. He looked really good in the scrimmage. He's looked really good in practice lately.That's really good.
Shep
I do like the 'few' posts you make and the 'occaisional' thread here and there. But in order to keep my dinner down, i may need to put you on ignore till regular season begins.
If i had my dead horse icon handy, it would be sizzling hot at this point.
Dano- carry on.
Shep
I do like the 'few' posts you make and the 'occaisional' thread here and there. But in order to keep my dinner down, i may need to put you on ignore till regular season begins.
If i had my dead horse icon handy, it would be sizzling hot at this point.
Dano- carry on.
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