Nick Chubb among 3 Browns named to the Pro Bowl

[Tour2ma]

Can't bemoan other Browns being overlooked until you see who was selected.

Richardson is the first name that popped to mind here, but I can't argue with these selected DTs...

Teller? Still needs PassPro work... especially compared to...

Landry? Nope... I'm good with these.

Ward?

[Orion]

Ward shoulda' made it hands down.

[TexasAg1969]

@orion said:

Ward shoulda' made it hands down.

Too many games on the sidelines.

[Gunz41]

@the-gipper said:

Again, reputation

What I said has nothing to do with reputation.

Teller could very well have not made it because he was a "no name" before the year, but that has nothing to do with MY STATEMENT. 

And while there are places like PFF that rank players on their performance, it isn't reliable in my opinion. And OL is more based on eye test compared to positions with counting stats.

Not that it is surprising (not even wrong), but fans from any team will want to use something like PFF when it benefits their bias, but disregard it when it doesn't. That is part of being a fan and having that bias.

But just as an example: 

RB: Damien Harris is the 2nd ranked RB, only trailing Henry.

TE: Richard Rogers 2nd, only behind Kelce.

DT: Steelers have 3 and 4 with Heyward and Alualu. Trails only Darnold and Vea

Not to mention, while he is very good, Watson is the 3rd QB. Only behind Mahomes and Rodgers. 

[The Gipper]

@gunz41 said:

What I said has nothing to do with reputation.

My meaning is that  DeCastro made it on reputation, for as you pointed out he has missed a number of games. 

Teller could very well have not made it because he was a "no name" before the year, but that has nothing to do with MY STATEMENT. 

And while there are places like PFF that rank players on their performance, it isn't reliable in my opinion. And OL is more based on eye test compared to positions with counting stats.

Not that it is surprising (not even wrong), but fans from any team will want to use something like PFF when it benefits their bias, but disregard it when it doesn't. That is part of being a fan and having that bias.

But just as an example: 

RB: Damien Harris is the 2nd ranked RB, only trailing Henry.

TE: Richard Rogers 2nd, only behind Kelce.

DT: Steelers have 3 and 4 with Heyward and Alualu. Trails only Darnold and Vea

Not to mention, while he is very good, Watson is the 3rd QB. Only behind Mahomes and Rodgers. 

Watson does also have the 2rd most passing yards in the league behind Mahomes,  I believe.  Plus he has a 27-6  TD to Int. ratio.  So, I guess they are going by that.

[Gunz41]

@the-gipper said:

Well as I said, my belief is that Decastro shouldn't have been either, but he also did play 1+ more games, and his missed games were the beginning of season.

My point with Watson wasn't that he should/shouldn't be Pro Bowl. I am saying by PFF he 3rd. I know there is some way to see the full rankings, but I didn't look past the PFF website that was only showing me 3. But I believe that I remember seeing Ward as 76th or something Sunday night. Just off of that one player alone, that shows how skewed it can be. And while I have been very impressed with Teller, him being 1st of all guards is inaccurate, especially when factoring in his missed time. I think the same for Decastro, and I think the same for their 2nd guard who is Zach Martin as he has missed a bunch of time. Teller isn't even the best guard on his team, Bitonio is, and he was PFF 3rd.

Honestly it is more of a tangent on PFF and how a good amount use it (not here) as a barometer.

Here is last years:

QB: Wilson, Mahomes, Jackson, Tannehill, Brees

RB: Chubb, McCaffrey, Ekeler, Jones, Henry

WR: Thomas, Godwin, Jones, Adams, Hopkins 

TE: Kittle, Kelce, Andrews, Waller, Higbee

OT: Ramczyk, Schwartz, Stanley, Johnson, Collins

OG: Brooks, Nelson, Martin, Yanda, 

C : Kelce, Jones, Jensen, 

EDGE: T Watt, Z Smith, Campbell, N Bosa, J Bosa

DT: Donald, Heyward, Jarrett, Cox, Jones

LB: Kendricks, Davis, David, Kuechly, A Johnson 

CB: Sherman, Gilmore, Hayward, Peters, Dunbar 

S: Harris, Simmons, Smith, Adams, Williams 

So there I only did top 5, but here are a couple other stats from that list

The #1 overall player was Kittle.

DeMarcus Lawrence (who 99.9% thought he didn't meet his contract) was ranked ahead of: Graham, Clowney, Buckner.

The 6th QB was Cousins, then Rodgers, Watson, Dak

There were multiple S over Fitzpatrick, multiple LB over Leonard.

The MVP was the 3rd at his position, the defensive player of year 2nd at his position, the Ground (RB) player of year 5th at his position.

[Tour2ma]

@gunz41 said:

And OL is more based on eye test compared to positions with counting stats.

Not really...

For one thing there are stats associated with OL play... mostly in PassPro such as pressures allowed.

But if a grader knows OL play, then it's easy to determine assignments and once you do that the success... or failure... to carry out that assignments. It's actually a good deal easier than grading WRs where adherence to a route is very subjective... at least it's easier for me.

[Gunz41]

@tour2ma said:

Not really...

For one thing there are stats associated with OL play... mostly in PassPro such as pressures allowed.

But if a grader knows OL play, then it's easy to determine assignments and once you do that the success... or failure... to carry out that assignments. It's actually a good deal easier than grading WRs where adherence to a route is very subjective... at least it's easier for me.

Yes, I realize that. My point being that there aren't as many counting stats. I never said there were no counting stats. 

Gotta Remember I'm not just some guy who only looks at things through fan eyes, as the same can be said of you. I have done more than enough grading to last a lifetime.

So my definition of "eye test" is meant much more than just who looks better. 

[Neo]

Any one of our O-linemen could have gone. No Bitonio, Tretter, Wills? No Kareem Hunt? Decastro over Teller? 

What the hell is wrong with these people?

[Gunz41]

@neo said:

Any one of our O-linemen could have gone. No Bitonio, Tretter, Wills? No Kareem Hunt? Decastro over Teller? 

What the hell is wrong with these people?

Bitonio is one of them.

Chubb

Bitonio 

Garrett 

[calfoxwc]

Two Browns that SHOULD have been listed at All-Pro:

https://www.brownsnation.com/2-browns-players-who-should-have-made-the-pro-bowl/

[Tour2ma]

Baker and Goodson?

Certainly Baker has the stats, but again have to look at who beat him out... Mahommes, Allen and Watson. Of these maybe you can argue vs. Watson, but he's playing really well on... can even say carrying... a pretty bad team.

Of course if you'd like to make the case against Allen, then by all means do so.

Goodson? The two ILBs named were Darius Leonard and Tremaine Edmunds. Stiff competition there...

[tiamat63]

Jano and Teller are my only arguments.  Right now there are almost half dozen AFC QB's that have had a better year than Baker. 

As for Goodson? Not quite the "name"... Yet.   But he is showing he could get there.

[SdBacker80]

I think Conklin has played well this year - maybe even Pro Bowl worthy.

[Flugel]

@calfoxwc said:

Two Browns that SHOULD have been listed at All-Pro:

https://www.brownsnation.com/2-browns-players-who-should-have-made-the-pro-bowl/

All Pro and Pro Bowl aren't always the same thing.  For example, Jack Conklin was named 1st Team All Pro in his rookie year while he was only a Pro Bowl Alternate (meaning he didn't get the fan vote to make the Pro Bowl initially).  Tony Jones (T-Bone) always got screwed in the voting until he played for Denver (not being drafted - didn't help him in the popularity contests/votes). 

I think Conklin had a very good season for us and I'm glad that was acknowledged in the post before mine.  Our entire OL played well inclusive of all the next man-up opportunists.   Fun season!

[The Gipper]

@flugel said:

All Pro and Pro Bowl aren't always the same thing.  For example, Jack Conklin was named 1st Team All Pro in his rookie year while he was only a Pro Bowl Alternate (meaning he didn't get the fan vote to make the Pro Bowl initially).  Tony Jones (T-Bone) always got screwed in the voting until he played for Denver (not being drafted - didn't help him in the popularity contests/votes). 

I think Conklin had a very good season for us and I'm glad that was acknowledged in the post before mine.  Our entire OL played well inclusive of all the next man-up opportunists.   Fun season!

2019 ALL Pro team.   I guess there are several "services" that name an All Pro team:

Teams[edit]

Offense Position First team Second team Quarterback Lamar Jackson, Baltimore (AP, PFWA, SN) Russell Wilson, Seattle (AP-2) Running back Christian McCaffrey, Carolina (AP, PFWA, SN) Derrick Henry, Tennessee (PFWA) Dalvin Cook, Minnesota (SN) Derrick Henry, Tennessee (AP-2) Flex Christian McCaffrey, Carolina (AP) Derrick Henry, Tennessee (AP-2) Tight end George Kittle, San Francisco (AP, PFWA) Travis Kelce, Kansas City (SN) Travis Kelce, Kansas City (AP-2) Wide receiver Michael Thomas, New Orleans (AP, PFWA, SN) DeAndre Hopkins, Houston (AP, SN) Julio Jones, Atlanta (PFWA) Julio Jones, Atlanta (AP-2) Chris Godwin, Tampa Bay (AP-2) Left tackle Ronnie Stanley, Baltimore (AP) David Bakhtiari, Green Bay (AP-2) Left guard Quenton Nelson, Indianapolis (AP) Joel Bitonio, Cleveland (AP-2t) Joe Thuney, New England (AP-2t) Center Jason Kelce, Philadelphia (AP, PFWA, SN) Rodney Hudson, Oakland (AP-2) Right guard Zack Martin, Dallas (AP) Marshal Yanda, Baltimore (AP-2) Right tackle Ryan Ramczyk, New Orleans (AP) Mitchell Schwartz, Kansas City (AP-2) Tackle Laremy Tunsil, Houston (SN) David Bakhtiari, Green Bay (SN) Ryan Ramczyk, New Orleans (PFWA) Ronnie Stanley, Baltimore (PFWA)   Guard Quenton Nelson, Indianapolis (PFWA, SN) Marshal Yanda, Baltimore (PFWA) Zack Martin, Dallas (SN)   Special teams Position First team Second team Kicker Justin Tucker, Baltimore (AP, PFWA, SN) Josh Lambo, Jacksonville (AP-2) Punter Brett Kern, Tennessee (AP, PFWA, SN) Tress Way, Washington (AP-2) Kick returner Cordarrelle Patterson, Chicago (AP, PFWA, SN) Mecole Hardman, Kansas City (AP-2) Punt returner Deonte Harris, New Orleans (AP, PFWA, SN) Diontae Johnson, Pittsburgh (AP-2) Special teams Matthew Slater, New England (AP, PFWA) Cordarrelle Patterson, Chicago (AP-2t) J. T. Gray, New Orleans (AP-2t)

[The Gipper]

Defense
Position	First team	Second team
Edge rusher	Chandler Jones, Arizona (AP) T. J. Watt, Pittsburgh (AP) Cameron Jordan, New Orleans (PFWA, SN) Joey Bosa, Los Angeles Chargers (SN) Danielle Hunter, Minnesota (PFWA)	Cameron Jordan, New Orleans (AP-2) Shaq Barrett, Tampa Bay (AP-2)
Interior lineman	Aaron Donald, Los Angeles Rams (AP, PFWA, SN) Cameron Heyward, Pittsburgh (AP, PFWA, SN)	Grady Jarrett, Atlanta (AP-2) DeForest Buckner, San Francisco (AP-2)
Linebacker	Bobby Wagner, Seattle (AP, PFWA, SN) Demario Davis, New Orleans (AP) Eric Kendricks, Minnesota (AP) T. J. Watt, Pittsburgh (PFWA, SN) Chandler Jones, Arizona (PFWA, SN)	Darius Leonard, Indianapolis (AP-2) Luke Kuechly, Carolina (AP-2) T. J. Watt, Pittsburgh (AP-2)
Cornerback	Stephon Gilmore, New England (AP, PFWA, SN) Tre'Davious White, Buffalo (AP, PFWA, SN)	Richard Sherman, San Francisco (AP-2) Marcus Peters, Baltimore (AP-2)
Safety	Jamal Adams, New York Jets (AP, PFWA, SN) Minkah Fitzpatrick, Pittsburgh (AP, PFWA, SN)	Justin Simmons, Denver (AP-2) Tyrann Mathieu, Kansas City (AP-2)
Defensive back	Marlon Humphrey, Baltimore (AP-t) Marcus Peters, Baltimore (AP-t) Tyrann Mathieu, Kansas City (AP-t)