Cleveland casino a $600 million investment; expert questions proposed sites
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Cleveland's casino will be a $600 million investment.
That's what casino developer Dan Gilbert's representative told the crowd of more than 100 at a public dialogue on casino design, held at Cleveland's City Club Friday evening.
Len Komoroski, representing Gilbert's Rock Ventures LLC, said that Gilbert and his partners want to make sure "this is a first class destination and entity. We are committed to investing more than $600 million here in the Cleveland casino project."
View full sizeKomoroski was one of four panelists at the discussion organized by a group of young professionals calling itself the Cleveland Coalition.
The other speakers were Christopher Diehl, a professor at the Kent State Urban Design Collaborative; Tom Chema, president of Hiram College and former chief executive of the Gateway Economic Development Corp., and David M. Schwarz of Washington, D.C., a well-known architect who designed the expansion of Severance Hall in Cleveland in the late 1990s. Schwarz is currently working on a project for Harrah's Entertainment Inc. in Las Vegas.
Schwarz, who flew into Cleveland for this event and also spent part of the day meeting with Kent design students, shared his puzzlement of the four sites selected as possible casino locations in Cleveland.
The four were part of the Issue 3 measure that voters passed in November. They include the east bank of the Cuyahoga River behind Tower City Center; a site on the W. 3rd St. Peninsula underneath the Lorain-Carnegie bridge, the Scranton Road Peninsula and the Higbee building.
Komoroski left before the other panelists spoke, to head to Quicken Loans arena for the potentially Guinness world-record-breaking "Snuggie" event.
Though Schwarz said he wasn't taking any position on casino locations in Cleveland, he later dismissed two sites out of hand -- the peninsula locations -- as being inconsistent with the pledge he'd been told Gilbert made, that the casino be a place that encourages the flow of traffic in and out of it.
"I don't think you'll have a white elephant, people love to game and it will be used wherever you put it," Schwarz said. "But you may have a great risk of having something that is nothing for downtown, which is a real lost opportunity.
"I'm quite surprised listening to the goals by this group and by the representatives of the developer that the sites are what they are. Two clearly do nothing for downtown.
"The 600 million number wouldn't get you close because the infrastructure to get you to those sites would be so expensive it wouldn't happen. You don't have four sites that would impact downtown. How you site this thing is absolutely critical to what you get. Don't confuse yourselves about this."
Gilbert has said publicly that the measure of success for the casino will not just be how well it does, but how it contributes to the well-being of downtown.
Most casinos -- in Las Vegas and other cities -- have been built as bunkers that discourage gamblers from leaving the building.
And as Komoroski reiterated, the proposed casinos would not be a "bunker," and he mentioned again the importance of "how it's integrated into the downtown fabric."
Diehl mentioned that his students have been coming up with creative ideas for how a casino might look, and mentioned the views of the river that several would have.
Schwarz said bluntly that no casino owners wanted patrons to look at views from the casino. He mentioned casinos built next to the beach in Biloxi, Miss., and that not a single one has a back door to allow patrons to get to the beach.
Of all the casino locations he's studied, Biloxi is the place, Schwarz said, where gaming has had the least positive impact on the city. There, the Beau Rivage casino, for example, is separated by the city by a major 12-lane roadway
In most places like that, "Casino life and city life have nothing to with each other. Municipalities have at best viewed gaming as a necessary evil, and operators have viewed city dwellers as an unfortunate occurrence. There's a mutual distrust," he said.
"Most casinos are on edges, on tracks, on the other side of the river, and the isolation makes them not central to urban life. "
Of the four locations, Schwarz said the one on the Cuyahoga River's east bank behind Tower City and the Higbee's were the only two that would serve the purpose of integrating with city life; he added that he didn't know much about the Higbee's building.
That has mainly been mentioned as the site of a temporary casino, should there be one.
During a question and answer session, Gilbert's Rock Ventures was represented by former U.S. Rep. Dennis Eckart. One of the questions was whether the casino design would fall under Cleveland's building and zoning restrictions and guidelines, even though it would be in a special designated district.
Eckart said that it would.
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What do u guys think about adding Casinos to the City ? I think if they get it right it will add to more fun and economy in Cleveland.
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Well, casinos have been voted in. No sense in further debating. Given that, I really like the idea of turning the Higbee building into the casino! I mean, the building is there. I believe it is empty for the most part, isn't it? Maybe some offices are in it. They would not want it torn down as it is part of the Tower City complex. It certainly seems like it would be more than big enough. You have the mall and the two hotels...the Ritz Carlton and The Sheraton (it is a Sheraton, isn't it?) attached. It would be perfectly integrated into the community with the Rapid also in the same complex. That seems like a winner for the City to me.
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Well, casinos have been voted in. No sense in further debating. Given that, I really like the idea of turning the Higbee building into the casino! I mean, the building is there. I believe it is empty for the most part, isn't it? Maybe some offices are in it. They would not want it torn down as it is part of the Tower City complex. It certainly seems like it would be more than big enough. You have the mall and the two hotels...the Ritz Carlton and The Sheraton (it is a Sheraton, isn't it?) attached. It would be perfectly integrated into the community with the Rapid also in the same complex. That seems like a winner for the City to me.
Well, casinos have been voted in. No sense in further debating. Given that, I really like the idea of turning the Higbee building into the casino! I mean, the building is there. I believe it is empty for the most part, isn't it? Maybe some offices are in it. They would not want it torn down as it is part of the Tower City complex. It certainly seems like it would be more than big enough. You have the mall and the two hotels...the Ritz Carlton and The Sheraton (it is a Sheraton, isn't it?) attached. It would be perfectly integrated into the community with the Rapid also in the same complex. That seems like a winner for the City to me.
It'll be OK for the city but bad for other Ohio destinations that feature leisure activities
I voted no as I don't particulary care to line Gilbert's pockets at the expense of my friends (and me) at the Bay or Thistledown or etc etc
SLots in bars statewide would provide more fair income.
But....
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Well, casinos have been voted in. No sense in further debating. Given that, I really like the idea of turning the Higbee building into the casino! I mean, the building is there. I believe it is empty for the most part, isn't it? Maybe some offices are in it. They would not want it torn down as it is part of the Tower City complex. It certainly seems like it would be more than big enough. You have the mall and the two hotels...the Ritz Carlton and The Sheraton (it is a Sheraton, isn't it?) attached. It would be perfectly integrated into the community with the Rapid also in the same complex. That seems like a winner for the City to me.
It'll be OK for the city but bad for other Ohio destinations that feature leisure activities
I voted no as I don't particulary care to line Gilbert's pockets at the expense of my friends (and me) at the Bay or Thistledown or etc etc
SLots in bars statewide would provide more fair income.
But....
WSS
It'll be OK for the city but bad for other Ohio destinations that feature leisure activities
I voted no as I don't particulary care to line Gilbert's pockets at the expense of my friends (and me) at the Bay or Thistledown or etc etc
SLots in bars statewide would provide more fair income.
But....
WSS
Well, the concern would be also that it really wouldn't be all that great for the city if they did to the Cleveland casino what other casinos do: make themselves a fortress with no contact with the outside community. Once they get you in there they want to blot out the sun and make you stay in their controlled environment and lose your cash to them. In Biloxi, apparently, they built a casino right on the beach, but then didn't put a single door or window in there facing the ocean.
I know that in Vegas, they closed the pools when it got dark in the summer. It was at dusk or after dark that I generally like to take a visit to the pool of a place I am staying. If I visited Vegas now, I wouldn't want to stay in the hotel/casino. I would stay in my time share. They don't treat you like a prisoner.
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Every bum in the city hangs out at Public Square. I liked to stay at the Renaissance, but quit doing so as it just didn't feel all that safe at night with people sleeping on the sidewalk just outside the door and pan handlers always searching for a buck.
If they select the Higbee building, they need to clean up the streets.
I do like the idea of making it easy to get out and make it a part of the downtown life, but that goes against the grain and not sure it will actually come off that way.
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Every bum in the city hangs out at Public Square. I liked to stay at the Renaissance, but quit doing so as it just didn't feel all that safe at night with people sleeping on the sidewalk just outside the door and pan handlers always searching for a buck.
If they select the Higbee building, they need to clean up the streets.
I do like the idea of making it easy to get out and make it a part of the downtown life, but that goes against the grain and not sure it will actually come off that way.
Every bum in the city hangs out at Public Square. I liked to stay at the Renaissance, but quit doing so as it just didn't feel all that safe at night with people sleeping on the sidewalk just outside the door and pan handlers always searching for a buck.
If they select the Higbee building, they need to clean up the streets.
I do like the idea of making it easy to get out and make it a part of the downtown life, but that goes against the grain and not sure it will actually come off that way.
Where's the Soylent Green when ya need it?
WSS
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Every bum in the city hangs out at Public Square. I liked to stay at the Renaissance, but quit doing so as it just didn't feel all that safe at night with people sleeping on the sidewalk just outside the door and pan handlers always searching for a buck.
If they select the Higbee building, they need to clean up the streets.
I do like the idea of making it easy to get out and make it a part of the downtown life, but that goes against the grain and not sure it will actually come off that way.
Where's the Soylent Green when ya need it?
WSS
Where's the Soylent Green when ya need it?
WSS
LOL!
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I was just in Detroit on Wednesday. I drove up in the morning, called on a Customer (Detroit Diesel) in the afternoon, and finished at the Greektown Casino afterwards. I was envious of the Detroit Redwing fans who started to pour into the casino and surrounding restaurants and bars a few hours before the game. They parked at the Casino's free parking decks, came in and tried their hand a bit, grabbed something to eat and a beverage, caught the people-mover (above ground monarail system) to Joe Louis Arena, watched the game, and probably repeated the same feat on the way out. How fun! ... tonight, even though Ed is accomodating me in a loge for the Cavs game, there isn't much to do besides go down, pay for fairly high parking, grab something at the crowded venues that fill-up only because of the game, and leave dodge afterwards.
For all those who knock Detroit, that is still a very fun city and downtown area to visit. I'd vacation there, I love that city ... the Casino's have added a ton to an already interesting city with history and culture.
I laughed when I first read this story about how the want to integrate the Casino's here into the downtown fabric. I wouldn't have understood that concept had it not been for my trip to Detroit two days ago, and those RedWing fans that had to have an awesome night attending the game when surrounding it with gaming, food, and fun in addition to the game.
Don't think for a second that Gilbert isn't bringing Detroits concept to Cleveland, and remember that Gilbert was a longtime Detroit Piston fan and has mimicked much of the Pistons success into his Cleveland Cavaliers team. With Ford Field (Detroit Lions) and Commerica Park (Detroit Tigers) becoming neighbors with Greektown, MGM Grand, and Motor City, I can see where Gilbert is getting his idea's.
What leads you downtown the most? That's right, sporting events, sprinkle in the casino's and your trips to downtown just tripled and everything you do down there will involve a dash into the "bunkers".
I hope the $600 Mil includes a Hotel on the premises, that's a key too.
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Well, casinos have been voted in. No sense in further debating. Given that, I really like the idea of turning the Higbee building into the casino! I mean, the building is there. I believe it is empty for the most part, isn't it? Maybe some offices are in it. They would not want it torn down as it is part of the Tower City complex. It certainly seems like it would be more than big enough. You have the mall and the two hotels...the Ritz Carlton and The Sheraton (it is a Sheraton, isn't it?) attached. It would be perfectly integrated into the community with the Rapid also in the same complex. That seems like a winner for the City to me.
It'll be OK for the city but bad for other Ohio destinations that feature leisure activities
I voted no as I don't particulary care to line Gilbert's pockets at the expense of my friends (and me) at the Bay or Thistledown or etc etc
SLots in bars statewide would provide more fair income.
But....
WSS
It'll be OK for the city but bad for other Ohio destinations that feature leisure activities
I voted no as I don't particulary care to line Gilbert's pockets at the expense of my friends (and me) at the Bay or Thistledown or etc etc
SLots in bars statewide would provide more fair income.
But....
WSS
I agree Steve, placing a Casino out near the Islands would be a huge draw.
Say you live in the Northwestern suburbs of Detroit and it's July, would you get-away to the U.P, downtown, or head for Ohio-Cedar Point-The Lake Erie Islands-Brand New Casino(s)-Water Parks-Restaurants and more?
What a resort that would make the Port Clinton, Catawba, Marblehead, Sandusky area, not to mention the Islands. The weather is always better in that pocket as well, winter or summer.
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Well, casinos have been voted in. No sense in further debating. Given that, I really like the idea of turning the Higbee building into the casino! I mean, the building is there. I believe it is empty for the most part, isn't it? Maybe some offices are in it. They would not want it torn down as it is part of the Tower City complex. It certainly seems like it would be more than big enough. You have the mall and the two hotels...the Ritz Carlton and The Sheraton (it is a Sheraton, isn't it?) attached. It would be perfectly integrated into the community with the Rapid also in the same complex. That seems like a winner for the City to me.
It'll be OK for the city but bad for other Ohio destinations that feature leisure activities
I voted no as I don't particulary care to line Gilbert's pockets at the expense of my friends (and me) at the Bay or Thistledown or etc etc
SLots in bars statewide would provide more fair income.
But....
WSS
It'll be OK for the city but bad for other Ohio destinations that feature leisure activities
I voted no as I don't particulary care to line Gilbert's pockets at the expense of my friends (and me) at the Bay or Thistledown or etc etc
SLots in bars statewide would provide more fair income.
But....
WSS
I agree Steve, placing a Casino out near the Islands would be a huge draw.
Say you live in the Northwestern suburbs of Detroit and it's July, would you get-away to the U.P, downtown, or head for Ohio-Cedar Point-The Lake Erie Islands-Brand New Casino(s)-Water Parks-Restaurants and more?
What a resort that would make the Port Clinton, Catawba, Marblehead, Sandusky area, not to mention the Islands. The weather is always better in that pocket as well, winter or summer.
-
I was just in Detroit on Wednesday. I drove up in the morning, called on a Customer (Detroit Diesel) in the afternoon, and finished at the Greektown Casino afterwards. I was envious of the Detroit Redwing fans who started to pour into the casino and surrounding restaurants and bars a few hours before the game. They parked at the Casino's free parking decks, came in and tried their hand a bit, grabbed something to eat and a beverage, caught the people-mover (above ground monarail system) to Joe Louis Arena, watched the game, and probably repeated the same feat on the way out. How fun! ... tonight, even though Ed is accomodating me in a loge for the Cavs game, there isn't much to do besides go down, pay for fairly high parking, grab something at the crowded venues that fill-up only because of the game, and leave dodge afterwards.
For all those who knock Detroit, that is still a very fun city and downtown area to visit. I'd vacation there, I love that city ... the Casino's have added a ton to an already interesting city with history and culture.
I laughed when I first read this story about how the want to integrate the Casino's here into the downtown fabric. I wouldn't have understood that concept had it not been for my trip to Detroit two days ago, and those RedWing fans that had to have an awesome night attending the game when surrounding it with gaming, food, and fun in addition to the game.
Don't think for a second that Gilbert isn't bringing Detroits concept to Cleveland, and remember that Gilbert was a longtime Detroit Piston fan and has mimicked much of the Pistons success into his Cleveland Cavaliers team. With Ford Field (Detroit Lions) and Commerica Park (Detroit Tigers) becoming neighbors with Greektown, MGM Grand, and Motor City, I can see where Gilbert is getting his idea's.
What leads you downtown the most? That's right, sporting events, sprinkle in the casino's and your trips to downtown just tripled and everything you do down there will involve a dash into the "bunkers".
I hope the $600 Mil includes a Hotel on the premises, that's a key too.
I was just in Detroit on Wednesday. I drove up in the morning, called on a Customer (Detroit Diesel) in the afternoon, and finished at the Greektown Casino afterwards. I was envious of the Detroit Redwing fans who started to pour into the casino and surrounding restaurants and bars a few hours before the game. They parked at the Casino's free parking decks, came in and tried their hand a bit, grabbed something to eat and a beverage, caught the people-mover (above ground monarail system) to Joe Louis Arena, watched the game, and probably repeated the same feat on the way out. How fun! ... tonight, even though Ed is accomodating me in a loge for the Cavs game, there isn't much to do besides go down, pay for fairly high parking, grab something at the crowded venues that fill-up only because of the game, and leave dodge afterwards.
For all those who knock Detroit, that is still a very fun city and downtown area to visit. I'd vacation there, I love that city ... the Casino's have added a ton to an already interesting city with history and culture.
I laughed when I first read this story about how the want to integrate the Casino's here into the downtown fabric. I wouldn't have understood that concept had it not been for my trip to Detroit two days ago, and those RedWing fans that had to have an awesome night attending the game when surrounding it with gaming, food, and fun in addition to the game.
Don't think for a second that Gilbert isn't bringing Detroits concept to Cleveland, and remember that Gilbert was a longtime Detroit Piston fan and has mimicked much of the Pistons success into his Cleveland Cavaliers team. With Ford Field (Detroit Lions) and Commerica Park (Detroit Tigers) becoming neighbors with Greektown, MGM Grand, and Motor City, I can see where Gilbert is getting his idea's.
What leads you downtown the most? That's right, sporting events, sprinkle in the casino's and your trips to downtown just tripled and everything you do down there will involve a dash into the "bunkers".
I hope the $600 Mil includes a Hotel on the premises, that's a key too.
\
Just heard on WKYC this morning that the law makers want to do away with 24/7 bar (end drinking at 0200) and free drinks for gamblers in the Casino's. What is with these morons. If you make a 600 million dollar casino, you go all out. Who cares what PA, MI and WV are doing. We should quit being late followers and be innovators.
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