Phil Savage Drafts
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So let me get this straight because PHIL O'SAVAGELY speaking, it sounds outrageous. You're saying you draft a LBer near the tippy top of round 2 because he's NOT your ideal 3-4 LBer? That's gonna win you ALOT of football games. What happened to drafting the BEST guy available instead of need?
You also rationalized giving Andra Davis a hefty raise before convicting ME of making over the top statements. I'm sorry but 2-3 years of sweet nothings from #54 and FINALLY re-doing the contract to lower some of the raise did NOT erase the reality of knee-jerk and blind commitment to a LBer that stinks. Take a look on your VCR or Tivo at the 2 LBers that started for us at Buffalo. You'll only see them at the introductions because they were nowhere to be found most of the night on my tv screen.
I've been a Head Coach at the high school level for a team that only lost 2 games so I KNOW good football players when I see them especially on the oline and at LBer. I also worked for the Tampa Bay Bucs when they had their FIRST good season in 1997. We don't have a Derrick Brooks here or a Hardy Nickerson. Neither guy was going to be WHO they became BECAUSE of the Coach. They were STUDS before they wore a Bucs uniform. Jon Gruden wasn't a BETTER Coach than Tony Dungy - he had a BETETR QB so they played with more leads AND margin of error than Dilfer was capable of getting Dungy. When you play with leads on defense - offenses are as predictable as you'd like them to be in the 2nd half.
Do the Steelers SUCK now that Cowher is gone? Why not? Not that this is the rule BUT did the Ravens even NEED Brian Billick to win the Superbowl? Not really. And Jon Gruden's Superbowl W was actually an outcome where his defense scored 4 of the TDs. Was he BETTER at teaching defense to talented defenders? Hell no! Both Coaches had Monte Kiffen as their DC. Guys like Herm Edwards, Rod Marinelli and Lovie Smith were never DCs in Tampa. They were position coaches.
When I think of our overall talent level as I've seen so MANY opposing defenses scoring critical TDs on our offense - the first question I ask myself is: 1) Besides the Giants game WHEN have we ever seen our defense scoring in a close game in the last 4 years? That's being a playmaker. That Denver game BEGGED for just 1 guy to make a play on defense. Just 1 and yet they were the team with MORE injuries on their defense just like Indy was. When those teams' backups look as good or better than our starters - I QUESTION our overall talent.
Like I've said so many times, in the 80s I was constantly saying "wow, this guy is a steal." I say this about Cribbs and I said it about Davon Holly but that's about it. I think you have strong emotional ties to Phil Savage clouding your judgement. I think BOTH the Head Coach and the GM gotta go. I haven't waivered on that just because I said RAC didn't look like he sucked at coaching when he had a GREAT Supervisor and talented group to coach. Phil's first interview he said he was going to improve the draft and continuity. We still count FAR too much on FAs and our depth sucks. There's only 1 lineman (#3 overall) on either side of the ball drafted by Phil in 4 years that's good enough to participate in games on Sundays. You think it's terrific - I think it's killed us to date. We agree to disagree. This conversation started with me complimenting you but the more you think you've educated me the less I can give you credit for.
- Tom F.
To be a great team in the NFL...you have to be pumping on all cylinders. 4 years ago, we had none. We lacked talent, coaching, mentallity, schemes...the whole nine yards. Since, we've had improvements. The talent may still need improvement, but not as much as coaching and mentallity.
The Browns will continue to get better if they continue to work on the weakest link. Right now, our Talent is not the weakest link. However, sometime in the future it could be. It all depends on how well the other weaker links are repaired.
To be a great team in the NFL...you have to be pumping on all cylinders. 4 years ago, we had none. We lacked talent, coaching, mentallity, schemes...the whole nine yards. Since, we've had improvements. The talent may still need improvement, but not as much as coaching and mentallity.
The Browns will continue to get better if they continue to work on the weakest link. Right now, our Talent is not the weakest link. However, sometime in the future it could be. It all depends on how well the other weaker links are repaired.
Here's areas we need to address soon:
Age at Center - Fraley was demoted in Philly by a better player
Tucker's age and injury resume
Shaffer has been getting beat as 2 sacks to Mathis remind us
McGinest's age and wear and tear
Joe J's age and wear and tear
Donte Stallworth - we're the 4th straight team that won't be interested in keeping him.
Sean Jones - not the same STUD I saw last year after 1 more knee surgery
Depth at corner now that Holly had a knee reconstructed
Talent at LBer, which obviously means depth as well
a Speedrusher that GETS to the QB
a NEW starting RB
Winslow had at least 3 knee surgeries and lost about 3 steps (ie; countless pushoff flags & can't block DEs)
How many draft picks are filling in on either line outside of our #3 overall? That has to improve.
Who's our deep threat opposite Edwards?
Who's our reliable possession receiver?
Who is our quality NT sub when Shaun Rogers needs oxygen for 50% of our defensive reps?
Are we 2 deep on the 3 man front with Smith being out?
Considering this is the free agency era - we're not as set as people think. We need these things above before we learn who stays and who sprays.
- Tom F.
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@jadbf said:
NO and once again. What I was commenting on that you decided to take WAAAAY WAAAY WAAY out of context, was your comment that "D'Qwell Jackson is Savages idea of the ideal linebacker".That statement is so over the top it's not even funny. As I proved to you. Jackson was not his ideal choice, but what savage thought was the best linebacker left in that draft, and linebacker was a position of need for this team.
So let me get this straight because PHIL O'SAVAGELY speaking, it sounds outrageous. You're saying you draft a LBer near the tippy top of round 2 because he's NOT your ideal 3-4 LBer? That's gonna win you ALOT of football games. What happened to drafting the BEST guy available instead of need?
You also rationalized giving Andra Davis a hefty raise before convicting ME of making over the top statements. I'm sorry but 2-3 years of sweet nothings from #54 and FINALLY re-doing the contract to lower some of the raise did NOT erase the reality of knee-jerk and blind commitment to a LBer that stinks. Take a look on your VCR or Tivo at the 2 LBers that started for us at Buffalo. You'll only see them at the introductions because they were nowhere to be found most of the night on my tv screen.
I've been a Head Coach at the high school level for a team that only lost 2 games so I KNOW good football players when I see them especially on the oline and at LBer. I also worked for the Tampa Bay Bucs when they had their FIRST good season in 1997. We don't have a Derrick Brooks here or a Hardy Nickerson. Neither guy was going to be WHO they became BECAUSE of the Coach. They were STUDS before they wore a Bucs uniform. Jon Gruden wasn't a BETTER Coach than Tony Dungy - he had a BETTER QB so they played with more leads AND margin of error than Dilfer was capable of getting Dungy. When you play with leads on defense - opposing offenses are as predictable as you'd like them to be in the 2nd half (ie; our NY Giant W). When Dungy got Manning for his QB - he was teaching the SAME exact principles, techniques and schemes he taught in Tampa. He just FINALLY got that margin of error GOOD QBs provide their defenses and vice versa.
Do the Steelers SUCK now that Cowher is gone? Why not? Not that this is the rule BUT did the Ravens even NEED Brian Billick to win the Superbowl? Not really. And Jon Gruden's Superbowl W was actually an outcome where his defense scored 4 of the TDs. Was he BETTER at teaching defense to talented defenders? Hell no! Both Coaches had Monte Kiffen as their DC. Guys like Herm Edwards, Rod Marinelli and Lovie Smith were never DCs in Tampa. They were position coaches.
When I think of our overall talent level as I've seen so MANY opposing defenses scoring critical TDs on our offense - the first question I ask myself is: 1) Besides the Giants game WHEN have we ever seen our defense scoring in a close game in the last 4 years? That's being a playmaker. That Denver game BEGGED for just 1 guy to make a play on defense. Just 1 and yet they were the team with MORE injuries on their defense just like Indy was. When those teams' backups look as good or better than our starters - I QUESTION our overall talent.
Like I've said so many times, in the 80s I was constantly saying "wow, this guy is a steal." I say this about Cribbs and I said it about Davon Holly but that's about it. I think you have strong emotional ties to Phil Savage clouding your judgement. I think BOTH the Head Coach and the GM gotta go. I haven't waivered on that just because I said RAC didn't look like he sucked at coaching when he had a GREAT Supervisor and talented group to coach. Phil's first interview he said he was going to improve the draft and continuity. We still count FAR too much on FAs and our depth sucks. There's only 1 lineman (#3 overall) on either side of the ball drafted by Phil in 4 years that's good enough to participate in games on Sundays. You think it's terrific - I think it's killed us to date. We agree to disagree. This conversation started with me complimenting you but the more you think you've educated me the less I can give you credit for.
- Tom F. (This started with me complimenting you. However, you have a dying interest for this situation to be exclusively RAC sucking and I wish it was that easy but it's not. Phil's 1st speech was the draft is why he is here and all you can show me are Josh Cribbs, 2 #3s overall, Eric Wright and who else tearing it up after 4 years?)
So let me get this straight because PHIL O'SAVAGELY speaking, it sounds outrageous. You're saying you draft a LBer near the tippy top of round 2 because he's NOT your ideal 3-4 LBer? That's gonna win you ALOT of football games. What happened to drafting the BEST guy available instead of need?
You also rationalized giving Andra Davis a hefty raise before convicting ME of making over the top statements. I'm sorry but 2-3 years of sweet nothings from #54 and FINALLY re-doing the contract to lower some of the raise did NOT erase the reality of knee-jerk and blind commitment to a LBer that stinks. Take a look on your VCR or Tivo at the 2 LBers that started for us at Buffalo. You'll only see them at the introductions because they were nowhere to be found most of the night on my tv screen.
I've been a Head Coach at the high school level for a team that only lost 2 games so I KNOW good football players when I see them especially on the oline and at LBer. I also worked for the Tampa Bay Bucs when they had their FIRST good season in 1997. We don't have a Derrick Brooks here or a Hardy Nickerson. Neither guy was going to be WHO they became BECAUSE of the Coach. They were STUDS before they wore a Bucs uniform. Jon Gruden wasn't a BETTER Coach than Tony Dungy - he had a BETTER QB so they played with more leads AND margin of error than Dilfer was capable of getting Dungy. When you play with leads on defense - opposing offenses are as predictable as you'd like them to be in the 2nd half (ie; our NY Giant W). When Dungy got Manning for his QB - he was teaching the SAME exact principles, techniques and schemes he taught in Tampa. He just FINALLY got that margin of error GOOD QBs provide their defenses and vice versa.
Do the Steelers SUCK now that Cowher is gone? Why not? Not that this is the rule BUT did the Ravens even NEED Brian Billick to win the Superbowl? Not really. And Jon Gruden's Superbowl W was actually an outcome where his defense scored 4 of the TDs. Was he BETTER at teaching defense to talented defenders? Hell no! Both Coaches had Monte Kiffen as their DC. Guys like Herm Edwards, Rod Marinelli and Lovie Smith were never DCs in Tampa. They were position coaches.
When I think of our overall talent level as I've seen so MANY opposing defenses scoring critical TDs on our offense - the first question I ask myself is: 1) Besides the Giants game WHEN have we ever seen our defense scoring in a close game in the last 4 years? That's being a playmaker. That Denver game BEGGED for just 1 guy to make a play on defense. Just 1 and yet they were the team with MORE injuries on their defense just like Indy was. When those teams' backups look as good or better than our starters - I QUESTION our overall talent.
Like I've said so many times, in the 80s I was constantly saying "wow, this guy is a steal." I say this about Cribbs and I said it about Davon Holly but that's about it. I think you have strong emotional ties to Phil Savage clouding your judgement. I think BOTH the Head Coach and the GM gotta go. I haven't waivered on that just because I said RAC didn't look like he sucked at coaching when he had a GREAT Supervisor and talented group to coach. Phil's first interview he said he was going to improve the draft and continuity. We still count FAR too much on FAs and our depth sucks. There's only 1 lineman (#3 overall) on either side of the ball drafted by Phil in 4 years that's good enough to participate in games on Sundays. You think it's terrific - I think it's killed us to date. We agree to disagree. This conversation started with me complimenting you but the more you think you've educated me the less I can give you credit for.
- Tom F. (This started with me complimenting you. However, you have a dying interest for this situation to be exclusively RAC sucking and I wish it was that easy but it's not. Phil's 1st speech was the draft is why he is here and all you can show me are Josh Cribbs, 2 #3s overall, Eric Wright and who else tearing it up after 4 years?)
Flugs, Great Post you nailed it 100%, too many people want to make excuses of why Savage has done some of the things he has done and you are one of the first people here to point this out.
We all knew Andra Davis SUCKS so why give the guy a new contract, you don't think we could have replaced him with any player better? Why did Savage draft D'qwell Jackson if he was not the linebacker he wanted, myself at the time of the draft I said why are we drafting a 225 Lb guy to play inside LB in a 3-4 defense and then you trade a Jeff Faine to move up in the draft to take Jackson, its the same when we selected Travis Wilson in the 3rd round another reach pick instead of taking the best player available.
How many guys have we drafted on the o-lines and d-lines who have done nothing, why is Sowells still on the roster if we won't play him.
What people fail to mention is if Wilson had turned out to be any good we would have not to spend money on Stallworth, if Sowells was any good we would not have had to spend money on Steinbach, now we are going to have to draft or sign as a free agent to upgrade at LB because of Wimbly and a saftey because Pool is nothing special.
Flugs, I keep trying to tell people its not all RAC but he seems the easier guy to blame, I keep saying to folks name ONE PLAYMAKER on this defense when we need a play made, this defense has 2 guys Shaun Rogers and Eric Wright who could start for just about every team in the league and thats all regarding our defense.
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To be a great team in the NFL...you have to be pumping on all cylinders. 4 years ago, we had none. We lacked talent, coaching, mentallity, schemes...the whole nine yards. Since, we've had improvements. The talent may still need improvement, but not as much as coaching and mentallity.
The Browns will continue to get better if they continue to work on the weakest link. Right now, our Talent is not the weakest link. However, sometime in the future it could be. It all depends on how well the other weaker links are repaired.
Here's areas we need to address soon:
Age at Center - Fraley was demoted in Philly by a better player
Tucker's age and injury resume
Shaffer has been getting beat as 2 sacks to Mathis remind us
McGinest's age and wear and tear
Joe J's age and wear and tear
Donte Stallworth - we're the 4th straight team that won't be interested in keeping him.
Sean Jones - not the same STUD I saw last year after 1 more knee surgery
Depth at corner now that Holly had a knee reconstructed
Talent at LBer, which obviously means depth as well
a Speedrusher that GETS to the QB
a NEW starting RB
Winslow had at least 3 knee surgeries and lost about 3 steps (ie; countless pushoff flags & can't block DEs)
How many draft picks are filling in on either line outside of our #3 overall? That has to improve.
Who's our deep threat opposite Edwards?
Who's our reliable possession receiver?
Who is our quality NT sub when Shaun Rogers needs oxygen for 50% of our defensive reps?
Are we 2 deep on the 3 man front with Smith being out?
Considering this is the free agency era - we're not as set as people think. We need these things above before we learn who stays and who sprays.
- Tom F.
Here's areas we need to address soon:
Age at Center - Fraley was demoted in Philly by a better player
Tucker's age and injury resume
Shaffer has been getting beat as 2 sacks to Mathis remind us
McGinest's age and wear and tear
Joe J's age and wear and tear
Donte Stallworth - we're the 4th straight team that won't be interested in keeping him.
Sean Jones - not the same STUD I saw last year after 1 more knee surgery
Depth at corner now that Holly had a knee reconstructed
Talent at LBer, which obviously means depth as well
a Speedrusher that GETS to the QB
a NEW starting RB
Winslow had at least 3 knee surgeries and lost about 3 steps (ie; countless pushoff flags & can't block DEs)
How many draft picks are filling in on either line outside of our #3 overall? That has to improve.
Who's our deep threat opposite Edwards?
Who's our reliable possession receiver?
Who is our quality NT sub when Shaun Rogers needs oxygen for 50% of our defensive reps?
Are we 2 deep on the 3 man front with Smith being out?
Considering this is the free agency era - we're not as set as people think. We need these things above before we learn who stays and who sprays.
- Tom F.
But People want to say we have all this talent and this team is only a few players away.
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So let me get this straight because PHIL O'SAVAGELY speaking, it sounds outrageous. You're saying you draft a LBer near the tippy top of round 2 because he's NOT your ideal 3-4 LBer? That's gonna win you ALOT of football games. What happened to drafting the BEST guy available instead of need?
You also rationalized giving Andra Davis a hefty raise before convicting ME of making over the top statements. I'm sorry but 2-3 years of sweet nothings from #54 and FINALLY re-doing the contract to lower some of the raise did NOT erase the reality of knee-jerk and blind commitment to a LBer that stinks. Take a look on your VCR or Tivo at the 2 LBers that started for us at Buffalo. You'll only see them at the introductions because they were nowhere to be found most of the night on my tv screen.
I've been a Head Coach at the high school level for a team that only lost 2 games so I KNOW good football players when I see them especially on the oline and at LBer. I also worked for the Tampa Bay Bucs when they had their FIRST good season in 1997. We don't have a Derrick Brooks here or a Hardy Nickerson. Neither guy was going to be WHO they became BECAUSE of the Coach. They were STUDS before they wore a Bucs uniform. Jon Gruden wasn't a BETTER Coach than Tony Dungy - he had a BETTER QB so they played with more leads AND margin of error than Dilfer was capable of getting Dungy. When you play with leads on defense - opposing offenses are as predictable as you'd like them to be in the 2nd half (ie; our NY Giant W). When Dungy got Manning for his QB - he was teaching the SAME exact principles, techniques and schemes he taught in Tampa. He just FINALLY got that margin of error GOOD QBs provide their defenses and vice versa.
Do the Steelers SUCK now that Cowher is gone? Why not? Not that this is the rule BUT did the Ravens even NEED Brian Billick to win the Superbowl? Not really. And Jon Gruden's Superbowl W was actually an outcome where his defense scored 4 of the TDs. Was he BETTER at teaching defense to talented defenders? Hell no! Both Coaches had Monte Kiffen as their DC. Guys like Herm Edwards, Rod Marinelli and Lovie Smith were never DCs in Tampa. They were position coaches.
When I think of our overall talent level as I've seen so MANY opposing defenses scoring critical TDs on our offense - the first question I ask myself is: 1) Besides the Giants game WHEN have we ever seen our defense scoring in a close game in the last 4 years? That's being a playmaker. That Denver game BEGGED for just 1 guy to make a play on defense. Just 1 and yet they were the team with MORE injuries on their defense just like Indy was. When those teams' backups look as good or better than our starters - I QUESTION our overall talent.
Like I've said so many times, in the 80s I was constantly saying "wow, this guy is a steal." I say this about Cribbs and I said it about Davon Holly but that's about it. I think you have strong emotional ties to Phil Savage clouding your judgement. I think BOTH the Head Coach and the GM gotta go. I haven't waivered on that just because I said RAC didn't look like he sucked at coaching when he had a GREAT Supervisor and talented group to coach. Phil's first interview he said he was going to improve the draft and continuity. We still count FAR too much on FAs and our depth sucks. There's only 1 lineman (#3 overall) on either side of the ball drafted by Phil in 4 years that's good enough to participate in games on Sundays. You think it's terrific - I think it's killed us to date. We agree to disagree. This conversation started with me complimenting you but the more you think you've educated me the less I can give you credit for.
- Tom F. (This started with me complimenting you. However, you have a dying interest for this situation to be exclusively RAC sucking and I wish it was that easy but it's not. Phil's 1st speech was the draft is why he is here and all you can show me are Josh Cribbs, 2 #3s overall, Eric Wright and who else tearing it up after 4 years?)
Flugs, Great Post you nailed it 100%, too many people want to make excuses of why Savage has done some of the things he has done and you are one of the first people here to point this out.
We all knew Andra Davis SUCKS so why give the guy a new contract, you don't think we could have replaced him with any player better? Why did Savage draft D'qwell Jackson if he was not the linebacker he wanted, myself at the time of the draft I said why are we drafting a 225 Lb guy to play inside LB in a 3-4 defense and then you trade a Jeff Faine to move up in the draft to take Jackson, its the same when we selected Travis Wilson in the 3rd round another reach pick instead of taking the best player available.
How many guys have we drafted on the o-lines and d-lines who have done nothing, why is Sowells still on the roster if we won't play him.
What people fail to mention is if Wilson had turned out to be any good we would have not to spend money on Stallworth, if Sowells was any good we would not have had to spend money on Steinbach, now we are going to have to draft or sign as a free agent to upgrade at LB because of Wimbly and a saftey because Pool is nothing special.
Flugs, I keep trying to tell people its not all RAC but he seems the easier guy to blame, I keep saying to folks name ONE PLAYMAKER on this defense when we need a play made, this defense has 2 guys Shaun Rogers and Eric Wright who could start for just about every team in the league and thats all regarding our defense.
its the same when we selected Travis Wilson in the 3rd round another reach pick instead of taking the best player available.
That's just false.
If you watched Savage's post-draft presser, you heard him talk about how their scouts were surprised that Wilson fell into their laps. Draft gurus had predicted that Wilson would be take late Round 2/early Round 3.
So when he was still on the board, the Browns thought they were taking BPA, despite having more pressing needs at other positions.
Wilson was a bad pick, but it wasn't an example of a "reach pick"; it was of a guy not living up to expectations.
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its the same when we selected Travis Wilson in the 3rd round another reach pick instead of taking the best player available.
That's just false.
If you watched Savage's post-draft presser, you heard him talk about how their scouts were surprised that Wilson fell into their laps. Draft gurus had predicted that Wilson would be take late Round 2/early Round 3.
So when he was still on the board, the Browns thought they were taking BPA, despite having more pressing needs at other positions.
Wilson was a bad pick, but it wasn't an example of a "reach pick"; it was of a guy not living up to expectations.
Aloysius said:
That's just false.If you watched Savage's post-draft presser, you heard him talk about how their scouts were surprised that Wilson fell into their laps. Draft gurus had predicted that Wilson would be take late Round 2/early Round 3.
So when he was still on the board, the Browns thought they were taking BPA, despite having more pressing needs at other positions.
Wilson was a bad pick, but it wasn't an example of a "reach pick"; it was of a guy not living up to expectations.
Hmm, do Northcutt, Dr. Q and Andre Davis ring a bell?
Seemed like everyone of them were tabbed as mid first rounders by our staff so they couldn't possibly afford to pass on them in the second.
Sounds like a bad trend with this franchise. When Paper Mache' Northcutt has had the best career of the bunch that's almost disgusting.
KJ I'll approve, although that dude made Ozzie look like a stud after the catch.
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We all knew Andra Davis SUCKS so why give the guy a new contract, you don't think we could have replaced him with any player better?
Okay, let's settle this one minor point once and for all so we can get past it. Who should the Browns have signed instead of Davis? I already listed the other FAs that season. Which one wouldve been a better fit for us? -
Aloysius said:
That's just false.If you watched Savage's post-draft presser, you heard him talk about how their scouts were surprised that Wilson fell into their laps. Draft gurus had predicted that Wilson would be take late Round 2/early Round 3.
So when he was still on the board, the Browns thought they were taking BPA, despite having more pressing needs at other positions.
Wilson was a bad pick, but it wasn't an example of a "reach pick"; it was of a guy not living up to expectations.
Hmm, do Northcutt, Dr. Q and Andre Davis ring a bell?
Seemed like everyone of them were tabbed as mid first rounders by our staff so they couldn't possibly afford to pass on them in the second.
Sounds like a bad trend with this franchise. When Paper Mache' Northcutt has had the best career of the bunch that's almost disgusting.
KJ I'll approve, although that dude made Ozzie look like a stud after the catch.
Hmm, do Northcutt, Dr. Q and Andre Davis ring a bell?
Seemed like everyone of them were tabbed as mid first rounders by our staff so they couldn't possibly afford to pass on them in the second.
Yeah, it's not a good sign when a guy was supposed to go early but then slides. Often, it means that even the team who drafted the supposed "steal" had a couple scouts who gave him a high grade, but also one or two who thought he was terrible.
For instance, take this scout's take on Alan Branch:
“One of the most difficult parts of scouting is when you know a guy is going to be a top-15 pick and you have to tell everyone in the room you don’t see it, that the guy is going to be a bust. How many evaluators can put their nuts on the line and go against the room? I gave (Cardinals DT) Alan Branch a sixth-round grade. We stuck him in the second round (collectively as a group on the draft board). I laughed. He was slow-twitched, played soft and had no instincts. He could stare you in the eyes and there was no intensity. And that’s how I hear he’s been in Arizona. He was not hard to figure out.”
Still, it's clear that Phil thought that Wilson was BPA, not that he was reaching for the best receiver he could find.
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its the same when we selected Travis Wilson in the 3rd round another reach pick instead of taking the best player available.
That's just false.
If you watched Savage's post-draft presser, you heard him talk about how their scouts were surprised that Wilson fell into their laps. Draft gurus had predicted that Wilson would be take late Round 2/early Round 3.
So when he was still on the board, the Browns thought they were taking BPA, despite having more pressing needs at other positions.
Wilson was a bad pick, but it wasn't an example of a "reach pick"; it was of a guy not living up to expectations.
Aloysius said:
That's just false.If you watched Savage's post-draft presser, you heard him talk about how their scouts were surprised that Wilson fell into their laps. Draft gurus had predicted that Wilson would be take late Round 2/early Round 3.
So when he was still on the board, the Browns thought they were taking BPA, despite having more pressing needs at other positions.
Wilson was a bad pick, but it wasn't an example of a "reach pick"; it was of a guy not living up to expectations.
These are receivers selected after Travis Wilson playing and productive:
Brandon Marshall-Denver
James Avant - Philadelphia
Domenix Hixon NY Giants
I believe all those guys would have been better choices than Travis Wilson
Here is a list of other players drafted after Travis Wilson and the invisable man Issac Sowells
Davis Pittman-LB-Ravens, Fred Keiaho-LB Colts, Max Jean Gilles-G-Eagles, Ko Simpson-S-Bills
Jahri Evans- T-Saints, Stephen Tulloch-LB-Titans, Barry Coefield-DT-Giants, Elvis Dumervil-DE/LB-Broncos
Leon Washington-RB-Jets
With the exception of Pittman and Washington all the guys I listed are starters and major contributors on their teams yet we were stuck drafting Wilson Leon Williams and Issac Sowells and what production have those 3 guys given the Browns.
Keep telling me how great Savage is at drafting
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We all knew Andra Davis SUCKS so why give the guy a new contract, you don't think we could have replaced him with any player better?
Okay, let's settle this one minor point once and for all so we can get past it. Who should the Browns have signed instead of Davis? I already listed the other FAs that season. Which one wouldve been a better fit for us?Okay, let's settle this one minor point once and for all so we can get past it. Who should the Browns have signed instead of Davis? I already listed the other FAs that season. Which one wouldve been a better fit for us?
2007 Linebacker Free Agents
Adalius Thomas, London Fletcher, Kawika Mitchell and Boss bailey was available for trade by the Lions.
Do you think any of those guys are better than Andra Davis
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We all knew Andra Davis SUCKS so why give the guy a new contract, you don't think we could have replaced him with any player better?
Okay, let's settle this one minor point once and for all so we can get past it. Who should the Browns have signed instead of Davis? I already listed the other FAs that season. Which one wouldve been a better fit for us?Okay, let's settle this one minor point once and for all so we can get past it. Who should the Browns have signed instead of Davis? I already listed the other FAs that season. Which one wouldve been a better fit for us?
Talking 2006 Free Agents there was not much there in the free agent market that being said why not pursue a trade for a inside linebacker.
Why play a 3-4 defense if you don't have inside linebackers, thats another problem I have with RAC and Savage they never had a competent nose tackle or inside linebackers and insisted on playing a 3-4. I might be wrong but I believe D'Qwell Jackson might be pretty good as a weakside outside linebacker in a 4-3.
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We all knew Andra Davis SUCKS so why give the guy a new contract, you don't think we could have replaced him with any player better?
Okay, let's settle this one minor point once and for all so we can get past it. Who should the Browns have signed instead of Davis? I already listed the other FAs that season. Which one wouldve been a better fit for us?Okay, let's settle this one minor point once and for all so we can get past it. Who should the Browns have signed instead of Davis? I already listed the other FAs that season. Which one wouldve been a better fit for us?
So you're saying we haven't had FOUR years to bring in someone better than Andra Davis? No wonder why you adore Phil Savage. Looks like the Davis discussion was ended. PLEASE!
The Saints got Jonathan Vilma this last offseason didn't they? Dhani Jones is actually BETTER than Cincy ever thought he'd be. Defense ain't their problem there. Bart Scott tested free agency but didn't get the attractive offfers. London Fletcher has great instincts and is better than anyone we have especially Davis.
Tupa, you ACT like there's noone else if Phil kept someone and yet I see teams getting NEW Lbers they'r ehappy with every year. Us? Isn't LBer one of the top complaints over the years?
I mean one of our most pathetic days as a franchise put Andra Davis on center stage for his INABILITY to tackle a RB that chose NOT to run around him. Actually 2 matchups worth of 6 quarters showed me Lewis had 500 yards on our defense featuring the Wide World of Wonderful from Davis. Phil HAD to see that if he was conscious in Balt at the time. HOW does one see that and think - "I gotta lock that kid up as a priority?"
There's better all over the place. Pittsburgh's defense in 2008 prolly scored more points than our passing game. If you think Phil Savage deserves tenure and gold stars for that - then God bless ya! I really don't see all this abundance of talent you and JADBF see on our team.
- Tom F.
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The Saints got Vilma b/c the Jets realized that he doesnt fit a 3-4. RAC runs a 3-4. Vilma is not an option. Adalius Thomas is an OLB, always has been as far as I can tell. Even if he was capable of playing ILB, why would he want to? He was offered $20 guaranteed to play the position he likes for the Super Bowl champions. What do you think Phil shouldve done about that? Bart Scott never wanted to play here. He left before a serious offer was ever made. That was fairly well covered as I recall. Cato June was also available at one point. He's a great linebacker...if you're playing cover 2. But we dont.
If you want to play a 4-3, take that up with RAC and Lerner. As far as I can tell, Savage doesnt have much control over that. He needed 3-4 ILBs, and Bart Scott is the only one you've mentioned.
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The Saints got Vilma b/c the Jets realized that he doesnt fit a 3-4. RAC runs a 3-4. Vilma is not an option. Adalius Thomas is an OLB, always has been as far as I can tell. Even if he was capable of playing ILB, why would he want to? He was offered $20 guaranteed to play the position he likes for the Super Bowl champions. What do you think Phil shouldve done about that? Bart Scott never wanted to play here. He left before a serious offer was ever made. That was fairly well covered as I recall. Cato June was also available at one point. He's a great linebacker...if you're playing cover 2. But we dont.
If you want to play a 4-3, take that up with RAC and Lerner. As far as I can tell, Savage doesnt have much control over that. He needed 3-4 ILBs, and Bart Scott is the only one you've mentioned.
The Saints got Vilma b/c the Jets realized that he doesnt fit a 3-4. RAC runs a 3-4. Vilma is not an option. Adalius Thomas is an OLB, always has been as far as I can tell. Even if he was capable of playing ILB, why would he want to? He was offered $20 guaranteed to play the position he likes for the Super Bowl champions. What do you think Phil shouldve done about that? Bart Scott never wanted to play here. He left before a serious offer was ever made. That was fairly well covered as I recall. Cato June was also available at one point. He's a great linebacker...if you're playing cover 2. But we dont.
If you want to play a 4-3, take that up with RAC and Lerner. As far as I can tell, Savage doesnt have much control over that. He needed 3-4 ILBs, and Bart Scott is the only one you've mentioned.
So you are saying that there are no linebackers in the entire NFL that Phil could have got better than Andra Davis?As Flugs, mentioned I don't see all the talent we have on this team and Phil has obtained that you and JADBF see.
Such a talented team with a 4-8 record uh uh uh, I know if we had better coaching we would be 8-4
How many Browns players can you name me in the top 5 in the position they play? Other than Shaun Rogers and Josh Cribbs I don't see any.
What draft pick has Savage made other than the 3rd pick in 2 drafts would you say looks like he can become a star player or even a Pro Bowl player?
Do you think a Greg Jennings, Brandon Jacobs, Justin Tuck, Brandon Marshall just a few guys Phil bypassed would look good in a Browns uniform, I would see all of those guys are true playmakers something Phil has lacked in drafting
For all the talk about Butch Davis he got us in the playoffs one year, how many winning season have Phil and RAC given us? ONE WINNING SEASON IN 4 YEARS..........Thats not very good.
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Okay, so I guess we're no at the point where everyone agrees that re-signing Andra Davis in '06 was a reasonable thing to do. I mean, how do you let a guy go when he's just notched 149 tackles, 4 stuffs, and 2 sacks for your defense & there aren't any decent FA's available?
The only question is whether we should have done more the last two offseasons to upgrade his spot.
Toop's already covered the '07 guys. I'd just add that Adalius Thomas has played some ILB in the past, but he's a better OLB. And IIRC, he was adamant about signing with a team on the east coast (didn't want to move his family).
In the '07 draft, I don't know where you'd get the ILB. Don't draft Joe Thomas? Brady Quinn? Eric Wright? Brandon McDonald?
A lot of people don't know this, but the Browns were planning to take ILB Desmond Bishop in Round 6, but the Packers took him right before we were on the board.
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Davis sucks. Good GM's dont overpay for shitty players. They might find an equally shitty player to take their place, but they won't overpay anyone. Saves cap space.
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Davis sucks. Good GM's dont overpay for shitty players. They might find an equally shitty player to take their place, but they won't overpay anyone. Saves cap space.
Davis sucks. Good GM's dont overpay for shitty players. They might find an equally shitty player to take their place, but they won't overpay anyone. Saves cap space.
After they lopped off the last two years & cut his '08 pay, Davis's deal basically amounted to a 3 year, $11.475M deal (Initially, it was a 5 year, $20M deal).
That same offseason, the Cowboys gave ILB Akin Ayodele a 5 year, $17.5M deal.
Very similar players, very similar production over the past three years (Andra: 232 TT, 1 SK, 3 INT; Ayodele: 194 TT, 1 SK, 4 INT). We shortened Andra's deal; the Cowboys traded Ayodele to Miami.
So if re-signing Davis makes Phil a bad GM, then Bill Parcells & Jerry Jones are also pretty bad.
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@jadbf said:
Quit using facts for comparison AlYou're just too in love with Savage.
Don't you know how easy it is to be a GM, Draft all the best linebackers and get every great FA to sign for you?
it's very easy. I'm going to try it next week.
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@jadbf said:
Quit using facts for comparison AlYou're just too in love with Savage.
Don't you know how easy it is to be a GM, Draft all the best linebackers and get every great FA to sign for you?
Sounds like a plan. -
@jadbf said:
hmmm...butch davis got them to the playoffs with a 9-7 record....This team with the talent savage brought in was 10-6 last year.......
and guess how many winning seasons Davis had????? uh yeah that 1 9-7
Huge difference there yes there is.....
Tell me what playoff game we played in with that 10-6 record
How many teams with winning records did we beat
You say you like to debate but you only point out things to try to make you look good, I'd rather go 7-9 and make the playoffs than 10-6 and staying at home saying if the Colts had played well we would of won when he had the easiest schedule in football and still missed the playoffs but then again you keep saying all this talent we have as we sit today at 4-8 staring a 4-12 season or maybe 5-11 in the face. if we had so much talent that Savage brought in we would have a winning record.........I know your answer its all RAC's fault we need better coaching not better players.
You say this team with the talent Savage brought in was 10-6 last year......well that same talent with more added talent has us at 4-8 and looking at another losing season........so you want to tell about all that talent.....where is all that talent JADBF
What does Bill Parcells like to say......YOU ARE WHAT YOU ARE AND WE ARE A 4-8 TEAM LESS TALENTED THAN MANY HOMERS WANT TO ADMIT
How many people had the Browns winning the AFC North? going deep in the playoffs? having more than 6 Pro Bowl players
What about all the talk was this is the year we bypass the Steelers.......looks like many people were WRONG
We all were fooled by last seasons easy schedule that produced 10 wins.......time to admit the truth
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