Wouldn't Gruden be an upgrade?
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No need to be rude. You're decidedly vague in your explanations, hence the questions.
If you're not sure if it's player IQ or coaching then how can you say it's the coaching?
I apologize if I seemed brash, I sincerely did believe you didn't understand what I was talking about so I reiterated.
And one thing I do admire about Mangini is how hard he has this team playing despite the level of talent, or lack thereof.
But when these losses pile up, the excuses people make for Mangini need to stop as his clock is ticking. Somewhere in this mix, Mangini needs to be held accountable. Surely, we can agree on that.
I apologize if I seemed brash, I sincerely did believe you didn't understand what I was talking about so I reiterated.
And one thing I do admire about Mangini is how hard he has this team playing despite the level of talent, or lack thereof.
But when these losses pile up, the excuses people make for Mangini need to stop as his clock is ticking. Somewhere in this mix, Mangini needs to be held accountable. Surely, we can agree on that.
But you just said it right there the level of talent on this team is the problem, you cant polish a turd. No coaching change will fix that. Now the fact is this team is playing one of the hardest if not the hardest schedule in the league this season, and that I feel has more to do with the losses then anything. If we had a weaker schedule says the chiefs we would be better off.
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I apologize if I seemed brash, I sincerely did believe you didn't understand what I was talking about so I reiterated.
And one thing I do admire about Mangini is how hard he has this team playing despite the level of talent, or lack thereof.
But when these losses pile up, the excuses people make for Mangini need to stop as his clock is ticking. Somewhere in this mix, Mangini needs to be held accountable. Surely, we can agree on that.
But you just said it right there the level of talent on this team is the problem, you cant polish a turd. No coaching change will fix that. Now the fact is this team is playing one of the hardest if not the hardest schedule in the league this season, and that I feel has more to do with the losses then anything. If we had a weaker schedule says the chiefs we would be better off.
Dawgfanforever88 said:
But you just said it right there the level of talent on this team is the problem, you cant polish a turd. No coaching change will fix that. Now the fact is this team is playing one of the hardest if not the hardest schedule in the league this season, and that I feel has more to do with the losses then anything. If we had a weaker schedule says the chiefs we would be better off.For the record, one can still not be dealt with all the cards and STILL be responsible for performance.
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Dawgfanforever88 said:
But you just said it right there the level of talent on this team is the problem, you cant polish a turd. No coaching change will fix that. Now the fact is this team is playing one of the hardest if not the hardest schedule in the league this season, and that I feel has more to do with the losses then anything. If we had a weaker schedule says the chiefs we would be better off.For the record, one can still not be dealt with all the cards and STILL be responsible for performance.
For the record, one can still not be dealt with all the cards and STILL be responsible for performance.
Like Gruden and Dungy in Tampa bay?
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For the record, one can still not be dealt with all the cards and STILL be responsible for performance.
Like Gruden and Dungy in Tampa bay?
Dawgfanforever88 said:
Like Gruden and Dungy in Tampa bay?Clever.
And what happened? They got fired.
I'm not quite sure what you were trying to impose.
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Dawgfanforever88 said:
Like Gruden and Dungy in Tampa bay?Clever.
And what happened? They got fired.
I'm not quite sure what you were trying to impose.
Clever.
And what happened? They got fired.
I'm not quite sure what you were trying to impose.
That the talent level on the team got Gruden fired. Like I said No coach could do any better. Even the legendary coaches had trouble when there teams lacked talent. Chuck Noll, Bill Walsh, Vince Lombardi all started out with wins in the single digits.
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Clever.
And what happened? They got fired.
I'm not quite sure what you were trying to impose.
That the talent level on the team got Gruden fired. Like I said No coach could do any better. Even the legendary coaches had trouble when there teams lacked talent. Chuck Noll, Bill Walsh, Vince Lombardi all started out with wins in the single digits.
Dawgfanforever88 said:
That the talent level on the team got Gruden fired. Like I said No coach could do any better. Even the legendary coaches had trouble when there teams lacked talent. Chuck Noll, Bill Walsh, Vince Lombardi all started out with wins in the single digits.Yes, but at times, you HAVE to pull the plug on a project when it seems long and behold, there's no substantial improvement.
Think business: an employee enters the position promising to make strides in an effort to boost revenue/gain clients etc. After year 1, the boss looks over the evaluation report and realizes that person A has not done all too well with the options ang resources at his disposal. Does he fire him? He could, but he chooses not to and gives person A the benefit of the doubt in hopes that the last quarter's sales were a sign of the future. 2nd fiscal year comes around and he realizes that despite the chance, no significant improvement has been made and the momentum riding from the year before has become stale. What do you do now? Let him ride the door to mediocrity or bring in another reliable employee who has the experience and ingenuity to turn it around?
I'm not saying we do it for sure ATM, but if the Browns end up with a top 5 pick this year, it's pretty obvious that Mangini needs a change of scenery. And surely, going by your logic, if the Browns underachieve by the end of the year again, shouldn't the Browns fire Mangini with the likes of the other all-time greats, no?
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Dawgfanforever88 said:
That the talent level on the team got Gruden fired. Like I said No coach could do any better. Even the legendary coaches had trouble when there teams lacked talent. Chuck Noll, Bill Walsh, Vince Lombardi all started out with wins in the single digits.Yes, but at times, you HAVE to pull the plug on a project when it seems long and behold, there's no substantial improvement.
Think business: an employee enters the position promising to make strides in an effort to boost revenue/gain clients etc. After year 1, the boss looks over the evaluation report and realizes that person A has not done all too well with the options ang resources at his disposal. Does he fire him? He could, but he chooses not to and gives person A the benefit of the doubt in hopes that the last quarter's sales were a sign of the future. 2nd fiscal year comes around and he realizes that despite the chance, no significant improvement has been made and the momentum riding from the year before has become stale. What do you do now? Let him ride the door to mediocrity or bring in another reliable employee who has the experience and ingenuity to turn it around?
I'm not saying we do it for sure ATM, but if the Browns end up with a top 5 pick this year, it's pretty obvious that Mangini needs a change of scenery. And surely, going by your logic, if the Browns underachieve by the end of the year again, shouldn't the Browns fire Mangini with the likes of the other all-time greats, no?
Yes, but at times, you HAVE to pull the plug on a project when it seems long and behold, there's no substantial improvement.
Think business: an employee enters the position promising to make strides in an effort to boost revenue/gain clients etc. After year 1, the boss looks over the evaluation report and realizes that person A has not done all too well with the options ang resources at his disposal. Does he fire him? He could, but he chooses not to and gives person A the benefit of the doubt in hopes that the last quarter's sales were a sign of the future. 2nd fiscal year comes around and he realizes that despite the chance, no significant improvement has been made and the momentum riding from the year before has become stale. What do you do now? Let him ride the door to mediocrity or bring in another reliable employee who has the experience and ingenuity to turn it around?
I'm not saying we do it for sure ATM, but if the Browns end up with a top 5 pick this year, it's pretty obvious that Mangini needs a change of scenery.
No, thats not obvious at all, all it means is that the team was not good enough. I'm sure the Steelers are glad they did'nt take that route with Chuck Noll in his second season of coaching them 5-9 .357 win percentage
What you need to look for is if the team is staying competitive and not quitting if the team quits on the coach then you get rid of him.
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The fact of the matter is that this team is on the verge of being very good. The next draft will finally infuse the team with real talent, and we will be a force to be reckoned with on both sides of the ball. Starting over on either side is not the way to go.
If you have been paying attention you would see that Daboll has called good games the last few weeks. I mean Come on it doesn't get any more difficult then @ the steelers with a rookie QB starting his very first game.
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Yes, but at times, you HAVE to pull the plug on a project when it seems long and behold, there's no substantial improvement.
Think business: an employee enters the position promising to make strides in an effort to boost revenue/gain clients etc. After year 1, the boss looks over the evaluation report and realizes that person A has not done all too well with the options ang resources at his disposal. Does he fire him? He could, but he chooses not to and gives person A the benefit of the doubt in hopes that the last quarter's sales were a sign of the future. 2nd fiscal year comes around and he realizes that despite the chance, no significant improvement has been made and the momentum riding from the year before has become stale. What do you do now? Let him ride the door to mediocrity or bring in another reliable employee who has the experience and ingenuity to turn it around?
I'm not saying we do it for sure ATM, but if the Browns end up with a top 5 pick this year, it's pretty obvious that Mangini needs a change of scenery.
No, thats not obvious at all, all it means is that the team was not good enough. I'm sure the Steelers are glad they did'nt take that route with Chuck Noll in his second season of coaching them 5-9 .357 win percentage
What you need to look for is if the team is staying competitive and not quitting if the team quits on the coach then you get rid of him.
Dawgfanforever88 said:
No, thats not obvious at all, all it means is that the team was not good enough. I'm sure the Steelers are glad they did'nt take that route with Chuck Noll in his second season of coaching them 5-9 .357 win percentageWhat you need to look for is if the team is staying competitive and not quitting if the team quits on the coach then you get rid of him.
Well this is clearly one of those things you can't argue. So let's just agree to disagree.
I just think there are much viable options at HC than Mangini, who, never had a good track record with the Jets to begin with. If fans of every team he has been on dont like him, then something is going on.
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Dawgfanforever88 said:
No, thats not obvious at all, all it means is that the team was not good enough. I'm sure the Steelers are glad they did'nt take that route with Chuck Noll in his second season of coaching them 5-9 .357 win percentageWhat you need to look for is if the team is staying competitive and not quitting if the team quits on the coach then you get rid of him.
Well this is clearly one of those things you can't argue. So let's just agree to disagree.
I just think there are much viable options at HC than Mangini, who, never had a good track record with the Jets to begin with. If fans of every team he has been on dont like him, then something is going on.
Well this is clearly one of those things you can't argue. So let's just agree to disagree.
I just think there are much viable options at HC than Mangini, who, never had a good track record with the Jets to begin with. If fans of every team he has been on dont like him, then something is going on.
Mangini had a fine track record in new york, its the media that villainized him so much. It didnt help either that he was the main whistle blower on ESPN's favorite coach and team. There was a reason so many players spoke up for him.
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Well this is clearly one of those things you can't argue. So let's just agree to disagree.
I just think there are much viable options at HC than Mangini, who, never had a good track record with the Jets to begin with. If fans of every team he has been on dont like him, then something is going on.
Mangini had a fine track record in new york, its the media that villainized him so much. It didnt help either that he was the main whistle blower on ESPN's favorite coach and team. There was a reason so many players spoke up for him.
Dawgfanforever88 said:
Mangini had a fine track record in new york, its the media that villainized him so much. It didnt help either that he was the main whistle blower on ESPN's favorite coach and team. There was a reason so many players spoke up for him.This is where the top is blown off.
Living in New York for the past 5 years for school, I can assuredly tell you that Mangini did not perform as well you think. His ceiling in New York was above average at best, but his basements were an 8-3 start collapse. I understand you like him, but cmon, the excuses for Mangini are ridiculous.
Gruden is a superior coach, it doesn't make sense to defend a guy many have deemed 'sketchy' in the lightest sense of the word.
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@junkyard-dawg said:
Funny stuff. Dungy's Team? I think you meant Rich McKay's team. He afterall was the GM who acquired the talent, built the roster and brought in the coaching staffs, not Tony Dungy. He was also the one who sent the Bucs into cap HELL while trading away premier pics for Gruden. It's kind of hard for any HC to right a sinking ship without 1st or 2nd round picks for three years. Interesting enough however, by year #3 they returned to winning before losing during an injury plagued season. It is what it is, but it isn't really fair to put all of the issues apon Grudens shoulders for issues that existed before he even arrived. There was a reason the Bucs HAD TO trade for a head coach. NOBODY wanted the job! Ask Parcells, he was offered ALOT of money but said no thank you after seeing where that team was headed.Funny thing about the other guy, I keep hearing about how Dungy somehow built that team, their defense and was the mastermind behind it all. Assuming the fans stating this are correct then he's also largely responsible for their collapse. Also interesting is for being such an architect during his entire tenure in Indy he was unable to ever build a defense worth a shit, plus ironically inherited the offense he had there, but noone ever mentions any of that.
Anyways Gruden is a good coach, i'd love to have him here. Going further back he took over a garbage Raiders team that was 4-12, had them 8-8 within a season and in the AFC Championships by year three. Interesting still, by year four he had the Raiders in the Superbowl had the referees not decided to call an obvious fumble an "incomplete pass" handing the game to a team that was recently caught cheating in OTHER ways. Anyways here's a gentlemen who had a horrible team rebuilt and a bogus call away from the Superbowl who then takes over another team, wins the Superbowl with them(against his former team no less), then has to rebuild them yet by year #3 has them back into the playoffs three out of four seasons.
I'm NOT getting my hopes up but yeah, i'd be pretty happy if it happens. An experienced, PROVEN head coach with big game success? Especially with a top 3 in the NFL GM who comes from the same system as that Gruden runs? Sign me up! I'm down for that. I don't hate Mangini, he's really good at building a base for someone else to build on and I think he has that base somewhat built. I get the not wanting to play musical coach and what not but i'm fairly certain Gruden would be our last head coach for awhile.
This is also the best timing we'll likely find to transition over. The Oline isn't bad, the DB's aren't bad, we have somewhat of a running game all of which are universal. Mangini or no Mangini we still need a Free Safety. Mangini or not we still need an ILB/another ILB. The D.L. needs rebuilt either way. Still need at least 1 more CB. Still need upgrades at WR, the QB situation is still a question mark ect. They all need new personnel one way or another no matter if we keep the current coach or replace him.
Someone recently mentioned switching back to the 4-3 and it being an issue. How so? Rodgers is an absolute beast in the 4-3, Fujita is a solid WLB, Gocong is a really good SLB leaving MLB, which we need either way. Even staying with the 3-4 we need defensive ends. Rubin and Mitchell can play in the 4-3. Need a FS either way as well. Point being we already have players who can play either and have needs at the same positions either way. It's clear we're not going to win this season so if the decision is made this upcoming offseason is the time to do it.
It would be an issue. Rogers is no longer the player he was. Fujita was let go by saints for a reason, and then there is the learning curve of switching D's which all the players will have to go through. It is just a bad Idea plain and simple to change.
And gruden did win with Dungy's team Rich Mckay drafted for Dungy and Gruden the pieces to the puzzle were already there. The GM always drafts for the coach not for himself it causes major problems, Which we saw with Romeo and Phil.
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Dawgfanforever88 said:
Mangini had a fine track record in new york, its the media that villainized him so much. It didnt help either that he was the main whistle blower on ESPN's favorite coach and team. There was a reason so many players spoke up for him.This is where the top is blown off.
Living in New York for the past 5 years for school, I can assuredly tell you that Mangini did not perform as well you think. His ceiling in New York was above average at best, but his basements were an 8-3 start collapse. I understand you like him, but cmon, the excuses for Mangini are ridiculous.
Gruden is a superior coach, it doesn't make sense to defend a guy many have deemed 'sketchy' in the lightest sense of the word.
This is where the top is blown off.
Living in New York for the past 5 years for school, I can assuredly tell you that Mangini did not perform as well you think. His ceiling in New York was above average at best, but his basements were an 8-3 start collapse. I understand you like him, but cmon, the excuses for Mangini are ridiculous.
Gruden is a superior coach, it doesn't make sense to defend a guy many have deemed 'sketchy' in the lightest sense of the word.
Thats just it you were in New york if Mangini went 10-6, 4-12 and 9-7( it wouldve been a lot better if Favres arm hadn't fallen off) Mangini would still be coaching there. Like i said the media there HATES him, and apparently for a lot of the people that live/lived there the irrational hate is contagious.
And when you say "many deemed sketchy" you mean the media correct? gotcha.
and winning with someone elses team does not make you superior it makes you Rex ryan.
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This is where the top is blown off.
Living in New York for the past 5 years for school, I can assuredly tell you that Mangini did not perform as well you think. His ceiling in New York was above average at best, but his basements were an 8-3 start collapse. I understand you like him, but cmon, the excuses for Mangini are ridiculous.
Gruden is a superior coach, it doesn't make sense to defend a guy many have deemed 'sketchy' in the lightest sense of the word.
Thats just it you were in New york if Mangini went 10-6, 4-12 and 9-7( it wouldve been a lot better if Favres arm hadn't fallen off) Mangini would still be coaching there. Like i said the media there HATES him, and apparently for a lot of the people that live/lived there the irrational hate is contagious.
And when you say "many deemed sketchy" you mean the media correct? gotcha.
and winning with someone elses team does not make you superior it makes you Rex ryan.
Dawgfanforever88 said:
Thats just it you were in New york if Mangini went 10-6, 4-12 and 9-7( it wouldve been a lot better if Favres arm hadn't fallen off) Mangini would still be coaching there. Like i said the media there HATES him, and apparently for a lot of the people that live/lived there the irrational hate is contagious.And when you say "many deemed sketchy" you mean the media correct? gotcha.
and winning with someone elses team does not make you superior it makes you Rex ryan.
It's funny how you antagonize the NY media for villainizing Mangini.
The media doesn't 'hate' him. I listen to just about every sports show in Manhattan and i'd say it's about 50/50. But thats neither here nor there, we're not talking about Mangini in NY, we're talking about Mangini in Cleveland. you continually bring up coaches of the past and other situations that happen, but the fact of the matter is, this team is underperforming. Do you honestly believe that Mangini is what's best for this team? If so, then there's no point in debating this forward.
It's not all too hard to understand.
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Dawgfanforever88 said:
Thats just it you were in New york if Mangini went 10-6, 4-12 and 9-7( it wouldve been a lot better if Favres arm hadn't fallen off) Mangini would still be coaching there. Like i said the media there HATES him, and apparently for a lot of the people that live/lived there the irrational hate is contagious.And when you say "many deemed sketchy" you mean the media correct? gotcha.
and winning with someone elses team does not make you superior it makes you Rex ryan.
It's funny how you antagonize the NY media for villainizing Mangini.
The media doesn't 'hate' him. I listen to just about every sports show in Manhattan and i'd say it's about 50/50. But thats neither here nor there, we're not talking about Mangini in NY, we're talking about Mangini in Cleveland. you continually bring up coaches of the past and other situations that happen, but the fact of the matter is, this team is underperforming. Do you honestly believe that Mangini is what's best for this team? If so, then there's no point in debating this forward.
It's not all too hard to understand.
It's funny how you antagonize the NY media for villainizing Mangini.
The media doesn't 'hate' him. I listen to just about every sports show in Manhattan and i'd say it's about 50/50. But thats neither here nor there, we're not talking about Mangini in NY, we're talking about Mangini in Cleveland. you continually bring up coaches of the past and other situations that happen, but the fact of the matter is, this team is underperforming. Do you honestly believe that Mangini is what's best for this team? If so, then there's no point in debating this forward.
It's not all too hard to understand.
And it is very apparent you don't know how bad the media is up there I have family in jersey(about 15 mins away from NYC) and its a night and day comparison to the media out here, but you just admitted its the media who deem him sketchy not the players or anyone else that matters so that point is moot
Underperfoming? that my friend is not a fact it is an opinion. We've already had this discussion not even the great coaches could do a thing with this team, and they didn't with theirs in there first 2-3 seasons.
Do you honestly believe he's as bad as the media says he is and Holmgren didn't know what he was doing when he retained him to allow his system more time to develop?
Dude this is a message board. Conversation with varying view points is what happens here if you can't handle an argument then what are you here for?
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It's funny how you antagonize the NY media for villainizing Mangini.
The media doesn't 'hate' him. I listen to just about every sports show in Manhattan and i'd say it's about 50/50. But thats neither here nor there, we're not talking about Mangini in NY, we're talking about Mangini in Cleveland. you continually bring up coaches of the past and other situations that happen, but the fact of the matter is, this team is underperforming. Do you honestly believe that Mangini is what's best for this team? If so, then there's no point in debating this forward.
It's not all too hard to understand.
And it is very apparent you don't know how bad the media is up there I have family in jersey(about 15 mins away from NYC) and its a night and day comparison to the media out here, but you just admitted its the media who deem him sketchy not the players or anyone else that matters so that point is moot
Underperfoming? that my friend is not a fact it is an opinion. We've already had this discussion not even the great coaches could do a thing with this team, and they didn't with theirs in there first 2-3 seasons.
Do you honestly believe he's as bad as the media says he is and Holmgren didn't know what he was doing when he retained him to allow his system more time to develop?
Dude this is a message board. Conversation with varying view points is what happens here if you can't handle an argument then what are you here for?
Dawgfanforever88 said:
And it is very apparent you don't know how bad the media is up there I have family in jersey(about 15 mins away from NYC) and its a night and day comparison to the media out here, but you just admitted its the media who deem him sketchy not the players or anyone else that matters so that point is mootUnderperfoming? that my friend is not a fact it is an opinion. We've already had this discussion not even the great coaches could do a thing with this team, and they didn't with theirs in there first 2-3 seasons.
Do you honestly believe he's as bad as the media says he is and Holmgren didn't know what he was doing when he retained him to allow his system more time to develop?
Dude this is a message board. Conversation with varying view points is what happens here if you can't handle an argument then what are you here for?
Irony: you heavily predicating fact from opinion, than going on to say it's "apparent" I don't know my own media when that is an opinion in and out of itself. I'm a journalism student, these media pundits often lecture around my institution, so yes, I know the media pretty damn well.
Big difference between living in Manhattan (me) and having FAMILY (not you) living in New Jersey. Fact of the matter is, it isn't New York. And living among these media monsters you so claim, I clearly know more about the in and outs of my own city than someone who doesn't even live here, and for all I know, in this state. I'm not inept of my environment as you choose to believe. It's 50/50, not 100% 'Mangini hate'.
Plain and simple, if you continually fail your job (which is to win), you get need to get fired. It happened to great coaches, and it's going to continue to happen. Your love for Mangini isn't going to distill this notion.
And message boards are for discussion. Yes, they leave room for arguements and debates, but when the same points are continually brought up and trivial facts are risen, it does not warrant a response. Hence, 'message board' where one so aptly chooses to answer. It has nothing to do with one's ability to, lol 'handle it'. Beating a dead horse only leaves one dumber than they came in.
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And just to add, Holmgren didn't necessarily keep Mangini because he thought he was what was best for this franchise, he kept him because he gave him the benefit of the doubt. That doubt is peeking up again, my friend.
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And just to add, Holmgren didn't necessarily keep Mangini because he thought he was what was best for this franchise, he kept him because he gave him the benefit of the doubt. That doubt is peeking up again, my friend.
And just to add, Holmgren didn't necessarily keep Mangini because he thought he was what was best for this franchise, he kept him because he gave him the benefit of the doubt. That doubt is peeking up again, my friend.
Has Holmgren said anything? No he hasn't. Like I've said before the only people that are talking about him getting fired are misinformed fans and well..... that's it the media really isn't talking about because there aren't any rumblings of it happening, and if there were you can bet we would be hearing about it like We've been hearing about with Singletary and Del Rio.
Those great coaches weren't fired after the first 2 seasons for a reason. Because its a terrible way to go about running a football team it always takes 3 seasons for anything positive to happen.
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And just to add, Holmgren didn't necessarily keep Mangini because he thought he was what was best for this franchise, he kept him because he gave him the benefit of the doubt. That doubt is peeking up again, my friend.
Has Holmgren said anything? No he hasn't. Like I've said before the only people that are talking about him getting fired are misinformed fans and well..... that's it the media really isn't talking about because there aren't any rumblings of it happening, and if there were you can bet we would be hearing about it like We've been hearing about with Singletary and Del Rio.
Those great coaches weren't fired after the first 2 seasons for a reason. Because its a terrible way to go about running a football team it always takes 3 seasons for anything positive to happen.
Dawgfanforever88 said:
Has Holmgren said anything? No he hasn't. Like I've said before the only people that are talking about him getting fired are misinformed fans and well..... that's it the media really isn't talking about because there aren't any rumblings of it happening, and if there were you can bet we would be hearing about it like We've been hearing about with Singletary and Del Rio.Those great coaches weren't fired after the first 2 seasons for a reason. Because its a terrible way to go about running a football team it always takes 3 seasons for anything positive to happen.
There's no staple as to how long a coach needs to stay. Zorn left after 2 years, for example. And it's not a terrible way to go about running a football team as long the reasoning justifiable.
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