The Browns GM/Coach Search - from a Patsfan's perspective
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I think I speak for most Patriots fans - and probably most football fans - when I say that I hope things turn around in Cleveland. Such a storied organization like the Browns and its dedicated and "football smart" fans deserve to have a strong organization.
Sadly, what I'm watching with Lerner and his infatuation with Mangini right now makes me worry.
A few thoughts of mine:
The key to success is excellence in the front office and on the field (and yes, that might mean clearing house). That means a GM and Coach need to be on completely the same page - and while they don't always 100% agree, they have the same goals and types of players and overall scheme in mind, and serve as a check and balance to make sure goals are met.
That's what works for Pioli and Belichick - and frankly, I don't think Pioli feels like he's undervalued in NE - he's a key part of Belichick's success (and we hope his presumably internal successor will continue that good work with Belichick if he decides to move on).
With a coach the caliber of Belichick, who could conceivably serve as a defacto GM if he had the time (which no coach does) it makes sense to hire a coach first. There's a few other coaches out there that fall into that category - but Mangini is NOT one of them.
Having Lerner even entertain the notion of hiring a coach like Mangini before deciding on a GM should be a BIG red flag to everyone in Cleveland. Mangini might not be the worst coach out there - but his sub- .479 total record in three years can't be solely blamed on Brett Favre either. I'd say that record accurately portrays what you'd be getting in Mangnini.
Even this season, as much as people want to blame 9-7 season (really, what should have been an 8-8 season if Dick Jauron had't given the Jets a win with a bonehead move) on a mediocre former HoF QB, look around the league and you'll see that there are plenty of successful teams who did far more with far less than the Jets had. And keep in mind that the Jets gave Mangini more than just a new QB - they gave him $140 million worth of off-season free agents. And for that they get an 8-8 record.
Also be wary of Mangini's player relations. He abdicated too much control during his tenure in New York and its questionable whether he can change his ways or redefine himself. As much as some Jets players might be singing his praises today, part of that is the fact that they knew they could manipulate Mangini. There were more than a few players in NY who were able to force him to trade them or force him into giving a contract extension.
In short, Mangini let the inmates run the asylum - and I'm sure there's plently of folks in the Browns front office pulling for him for exactly that reason, wanting to hold onto their jobs.
What you should want is a Coach and GM who can build enough of a commitment to quality and excellence in the locker room and the front office to inspire a winning attitude. With such an environment an organization can have an All-Pro Injured Reserve team and still have the quality backups (thanks to a good GM) continue the winning ways (like the 11-5 Patriots for example)
So here's hoping Lerner makes the right choice for the fans in Cleveland - but this infatuation Mangnini makes me worry for you guys.
Good luck on a good, if not great 2009 season.
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I think I speak for most Patriots fans - and probably most football fans - when I say that I hope things turn around in Cleveland. Such a storied organization like the Browns and its dedicated and "football smart" fans deserve to have a strong organization.
Sadly, what I'm watching with Lerner and his infatuation with Mangini right now makes me worry.
A few thoughts of mine:
The key to success is excellence in the front office and on the field (and yes, that might mean clearing house). That means a GM and Coach need to be on completely the same page - and while they don't always 100% agree, they have the same goals and types of players and overall scheme in mind, and serve as a check and balance to make sure goals are met.
That's what works for Pioli and Belichick - and frankly, I don't think Pioli feels like he's undervalued in NE - he's a key part of Belichick's success (and we hope his presumably internal successor will continue that good work with Belichick if he decides to move on).
With a coach the caliber of Belichick, who could conceivably serve as a defacto GM if he had the time (which no coach does) it makes sense to hire a coach first. There's a few other coaches out there that fall into that category - but Mangini is NOT one of them.
Having Lerner even entertain the notion of hiring a coach like Mangini before deciding on a GM should be a BIG red flag to everyone in Cleveland. Mangini might not be the worst coach out there - but his sub- .479 total record in three years can't be solely blamed on Brett Favre either. I'd say that record accurately portrays what you'd be getting in Mangnini.
Even this season, as much as people want to blame 9-7 season (really, what should have been an 8-8 season if Dick Jauron had't given the Jets a win with a bonehead move) on a mediocre former HoF QB, look around the league and you'll see that there are plenty of successful teams who did far more with far less than the Jets had. And keep in mind that the Jets gave Mangini more than just a new QB - they gave him $140 million worth of off-season free agents. And for that they get an 8-8 record.
Also be wary of Mangini's player relations. He abdicated too much control during his tenure in New York and its questionable whether he can change his ways or redefine himself. As much as some Jets players might be singing his praises today, part of that is the fact that they knew they could manipulate Mangini. There were more than a few players in NY who were able to force him to trade them or force him into giving a contract extension.
In short, Mangini let the inmates run the asylum - and I'm sure there's plently of folks in the Browns front office pulling for him for exactly that reason, wanting to hold onto their jobs.
What you should want is a Coach and GM who can build enough of a commitment to quality and excellence in the locker room and the front office to inspire a winning attitude. With such an environment an organization can have an All-Pro Injured Reserve team and still have the quality backups (thanks to a good GM) continue the winning ways (like the 11-5 Patriots for example)
So here's hoping Lerner makes the right choice for the fans in Cleveland - but this infatuation Mangnini makes me worry for you guys.
Good luck on a good, if not great 2009 season.
I think I speak for most Patriots fans - and probably most football fans - when I say that I hope things turn around in Cleveland. Such a storied organization like the Browns and its dedicated and "football smart" fans deserve to have a strong organization.
Sadly, what I'm watching with Lerner and his infatuation with Mangini right now makes me worry.
A few thoughts of mine:
The key to success is excellence in the front office and on the field (and yes, that might mean clearing house). That means a GM and Coach need to be on completely the same page - and while they don't always 100% agree, they have the same goals and types of players and overall scheme in mind, and serve as a check and balance to make sure goals are met.
That's what works for Pioli and Belichick - and frankly, I don't think Pioli feels like he's undervalued in NE - he's a key part of Belichick's success (and we hope his presumably internal successor will continue that good work with Belichick if he decides to move on).
With a coach the caliber of Belichick, who could conceivably serve as a defacto GM if he had the time (which no coach does) it makes sense to hire a coach first. There's a few other coaches out there that fall into that category - but Mangini is NOT one of them.
Having Lerner even entertain the notion of hiring a coach like Mangini before deciding on a GM should be a BIG red flag to everyone in Cleveland. Mangini might not be the worst coach out there - but his sub- .479 total record in three years can't be solely blamed on Brett Favre either. I'd say that record accurately portrays what you'd be getting in Mangnini.
Even this season, as much as people want to blame 9-7 season (really, what should have been an 8-8 season if Dick Jauron had't given the Jets a win with a bonehead move) on a mediocre former HoF QB, look around the league and you'll see that there are plenty of successful teams who did far more with far less than the Jets had. And keep in mind that the Jets gave Mangini more than just a new QB - they gave him $140 million worth of off-season free agents. And for that they get an 8-8 record.
Also be wary of Mangini's player relations. He abdicated too much control during his tenure in New York and its questionable whether he can change his ways or redefine himself. As much as some Jets players might be singing his praises today, part of that is the fact that they knew they could manipulate Mangini. There were more than a few players in NY who were able to force him to trade them or force him into giving a contract extension.
In short, Mangini let the inmates run the asylum - and I'm sure there's plently of folks in the Browns front office pulling for him for exactly that reason, wanting to hold onto their jobs.
What you should want is a Coach and GM who can build enough of a commitment to quality and excellence in the locker room and the front office to inspire a winning attitude. With such an environment an organization can have an All-Pro Injured Reserve team and still have the quality backups (thanks to a good GM) continue the winning ways (like the 11-5 Patriots for example)
So here's hoping Lerner makes the right choice for the fans in Cleveland - but this infatuation Mangnini makes me worry for you guys.
Good luck on a good, if not great 2009 season.
No, you can't blame everything on Brett Favre, but I think the 4-12 season in '07 had a little to do with his Qb's going a combined 15 TD's - 19 INT's and his starting running back having only 1 TD..
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A pats fan who doesn't like Mangini? Nearly as rare as a Lions fan who doesn't like Matt Millen...
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Don't tell me it's so bad in Cleveland that you guys are already rationalizing why it'd be good to hire Mangini.
I'd have thought it would be a complete fan revolt - but I do understand that there's the Kool Aid factor - and that if Lerner pulls the trigger you're going to HAVE to convince yourselves its a good move.
But beyond that, are there really some fans who actually think that would be a smart move?
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Don't tell me it's so bad in Cleveland that you guys are already rationalizing why it'd be good to hire Mangini.
I'd have thought it would be a complete fan revolt - but I do understand that there's the Kool Aid factor - and that if Lerner pulls the trigger you're going to HAVE to convince yourselves its a good move.
But beyond that, are there really some fans who actually think that would be a smart move?
Don't tell me it's so bad in Cleveland that you guys are already rationalizing why it'd be good to hire Mangini.
I'd have thought it would be a complete fan revolt - but I do understand that there's the Kool Aid factor - and that if Lerner pulls the trigger you're going to HAVE to convince yourselves its a good move.
But beyond that, are there really some fans who actually think that would be a smart move?
NO NO NO It would not be a smart move to hire Mangini.......This will be as big a mistake as Romeo Crennel was
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Don't tell me it's so bad in Cleveland that you guys are already rationalizing why it'd be good to hire Mangini.
I'd have thought it would be a complete fan revolt - but I do understand that there's the Kool Aid factor - and that if Lerner pulls the trigger you're going to HAVE to convince yourselves its a good move.
But beyond that, are there really some fans who actually think that would be a smart move?
Don't tell me it's so bad in Cleveland that you guys are already rationalizing why it'd be good to hire Mangini.
I'd have thought it would be a complete fan revolt - but I do understand that there's the Kool Aid factor - and that if Lerner pulls the trigger you're going to HAVE to convince yourselves its a good move.
But beyond that, are there really some fans who actually think that would be a smart move?
I'm pretty sure no one cares what you think.
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Don't tell me it's so bad in Cleveland that you guys are already rationalizing why it'd be good to hire Mangini.
I'd have thought it would be a complete fan revolt - but I do understand that there's the Kool Aid factor - and that if Lerner pulls the trigger you're going to HAVE to convince yourselves its a good move.
But beyond that, are there really some fans who actually think that would be a smart move?
I'm pretty sure no one cares what you think.
I'm pretty sure no one cares what you think.
Stay Classy Cleveland.
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Don't tell me it's so bad in Cleveland that you guys are already rationalizing why it'd be good to hire Mangini.
I'd have thought it would be a complete fan revolt - but I do understand that there's the Kool Aid factor - and that if Lerner pulls the trigger you're going to HAVE to convince yourselves its a good move.
But beyond that, are there really some fans who actually think that would be a smart move?
I'm pretty sure no one cares what you think.
I'm pretty sure no one cares what you think.
I think you're right. Forget everything I said.
Mods - please delete this thread. Lerner nor Cleveland fans need any additional perspective. You're right - Mangini is the perfect choice for this organization and Cleveland will get exactly the type of team they deserve.
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Wow, you guys are assholes. That was a great post from that Pat's fan. Thanks JoesixPat, thanks for taking the time.
I guess one could apply the ole "that's what we thought when you guys hired Belichick" cry ... but that's what those who drank the kool-aid here in Cleveland might have thought, but many of us could see what Belichick was building and it eventually lead to the Ravens taking home the Lombardy. Can you say the same for the Jet's? What has Mangini built up there?
Belichick was side-swiped at the end here by the announcement of the move, but he assembled a pretty damn good football team before the carpet was pulled out from under him. He made the difficult roster moves that we cry for someone to come in and do today. He stock piled the draft picks that landed the Ravens Ray Lewis & Jonathan Ogden.
WTF has Mangini done?
I appreciate this Pat's fans perspective on how Belichick and Pioli worked together ... much better insight than one of our bias opinions.
I happen to like these opposing fans (Jets & Pats) views on this subject, if you don't have anything constructive to counter than don't reply.
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Zombo said:
Yeah, we thought the same thing when you guys hired Belichick.Zombo
Who is this "WE"
I predicted Bill Belichik would be a SB winning head coach BEFORE the Browns ever went to the playoffs.
As far as being "football smart", I don't necessarily disagree, HOWEVER, the bulk of you on this board are indeed so blinded by emotion more often than not you can't see the forrest for the trees.
As much as you think I am automatically negative I find you guys to be sheep. It doesn't matter what the browns do, you guys think shit is gold. Seriously, think about how long you chnted In Sewage We Trust, and supported shit like dilfer, Frye and William Green.
Many here still think the Browns are a better franchise than the Bengals, or that Crennell is the secret to Belichik's HOF success.
Ridiculous fans, thats what Browns fans have become.
As far as Mangini goes, I'll take him over Ferentz, but would rather have Shanahan.
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Wow, you guys are assholes. That was a great post from that Pat's fan. Thanks JoesixPat, thanks for taking the time.
I guess one could apply the ole "that's what we thought when you guys hired Belichick" cry ... but that's what those who drank the kool-aid here in Cleveland might have thought, but many of us could see what Belichick was building and it eventually lead to the Ravens taking home the Lombardy. Can you say the same for the Jet's? What has Mangini built up there?
Belichick was side-swiped at the end here by the announcement of the move, but he assembled a pretty damn good football team before the carpet was pulled out from under him. He made the difficult roster moves that we cry for someone to come in and do today. He stock piled the draft picks that landed the Ravens Ray Lewis & Jonathan Ogden.
WTF has Mangini done?
I appreciate this Pat's fans perspective on how Belichick and Pioli worked together ... much better insight than one of our bias opinions.
I happen to like these opposing fans (Jets & Pats) views on this subject, if you don't have anything constructive to counter than don't reply.
Wow, you guys are assholes. That was a great post from that Pat's fan. Thanks JoesixPat, thanks for taking the time.
I guess one could apply the ole "that's what we thought when you guys hired Belichick" cry ... but that's what those who drank the kool-aid here in Cleveland might have thought, but many of us could see what Belichick was building and it eventually lead to the Ravens taking home the Lombardy. Can you say the same for the Jet's? What has Mangini built up there?
Belichick was side-swiped at the end here by the announcement of the move, but he assembled a pretty damn good football team before the carpet was pulled out from under him. He made the difficult roster moves that we cry for someone to come in and do today. He stock piled the draft picks that landed the Ravens Ray Lewis & Jonathan Ogden.
WTF has Mangini done?
I appreciate this Pat's fans perspective on hos Belichick and pioli worked together ... much better insight than one of our bias opinions.
I happen to like these opposing fans (Jets & Pats) views on this subject, if you don't have anything constructive to counter than don't reply.
I'd take a long look in the mirror at who the asshole is..
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Wow, you guys are assholes. That was a great post from that Pat's fan. Thanks JoesixPat, thanks for taking the time.
I guess one could apply the ole "that's what we thought when you guys hired Belichick" cry ... but that's what those who drank the kool-aid here in Cleveland might have thought, but many of us could see what Belichick was building and it eventually lead to the Ravens taking home the Lombardy. Can you say the same for the Jet's? What has Mangini built up there?
Belichick was side-swiped at the end here by the announcement of the move, but he assembled a pretty damn good football team before the carpet was pulled out from under him. He made the difficult roster moves that we cry for someone to come in and do today. He stock piled the draft picks that landed the Ravens Ray Lewis & Jonathan Ogden.
WTF has Mangini done?
I appreciate this Pat's fans perspective on hos Belichick and pioli worked together ... much better insight than one of our bias opinions.
I happen to like these opposing fans (Jets & Pats) views on this subject, if you don't have anything constructive to counter than don't reply.
I'd take a long look in the mirror at who the asshole is..
I'd take a long look in the mirror at who the asshole is..
Thanks asshole, I did just that and came to the conclusion that I would much rather be entertained by a Pats fans perspective on the subject of Mangini & Pioli than your pussy take that nobody cares for their opinion.
If you don't care for their opinion or are just going to put up some weak-ass shit about Farve than don't post because your replies here in this thread are among the dumbest.
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I'm kind of with Stan on this - you guys sometimes have a habit of not giving other fans a fair chance to give you some outside perspective on things. The guy simply was giving some insight on a coach he has experience with in NE, and yes it was only an opinion, but clearly he didn't need to be briushed aside like that.
We're all frustrated in Cleveland and I for one do not want Mangini. Doesn't make me correct, but it doesn't mean the guy from Boston doesn't mean well by coming here.
Some of you become completely unspooled at the thought of anyone coming here to talk football. They're not all idiots, IMO.
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Wow, you guys are assholes. That was a great post from that Pat's fan. Thanks JoesixPat, thanks for taking the time.
I guess one could apply the ole "that's what we thought when you guys hired Belichick" cry ... but that's what those who drank the kool-aid here in Cleveland might have thought, but many of us could see what Belichick was building and it eventually lead to the Ravens taking home the Lombardy. Can you say the same for the Jet's? What has Mangini built up there?
Belichick was side-swiped at the end here by the announcement of the move, but he assembled a pretty damn good football team before the carpet was pulled out from under him. He made the difficult roster moves that we cry for someone to come in and do today. He stock piled the draft picks that landed the Ravens Ray Lewis & Jonathan Ogden.
WTF has Mangini done?
I appreciate this Pat's fans perspective on how Belichick and Pioli worked together ... much better insight than one of our bias opinions.
I happen to like these opposing fans (Jets & Pats) views on this subject, if you don't have anything constructive to counter than don't reply.
Wow, you guys are assholes. That was a great post from that Pat's fan. Thanks JoesixPat, thanks for taking the time.
I guess one could apply the ole "that's what we thought when you guys hired Belichick" cry ... but that's what those who drank the kool-aid here in Cleveland might have thought, but many of us could see what Belichick was building and it eventually lead to the Ravens taking home the Lombardy. Can you say the same for the Jet's? What has Mangini built up there?
Belichick was side-swiped at the end here by the announcement of the move, but he assembled a pretty damn good football team before the carpet was pulled out from under him. He made the difficult roster moves that we cry for someone to come in and do today. He stock piled the draft picks that landed the Ravens Ray Lewis & Jonathan Ogden.
WTF has Mangini done?
I appreciate this Pat's fans perspective on how Belichick and Pioli worked together ... much better insight than one of our bias opinions.
I happen to like these opposing fans (Jets & Pats) views on this subject, if you don't have anything constructive to counter than don't reply.
Yes let's listen to a fan of a team Mangini never was the head coach for, played reasonably well against the last 3 years and called them out for cheating and cost them a first round pick and put their 3 super bowls into question. Get serious.
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I'd take a long look in the mirror at who the asshole is..
Thanks asshole, I did just that and came to the conclusion that I would much rather be entertained by a Pats fans perspective on the subject of Mangini & Pioli than your pussy take that nobody cares for their opinion.
If you don't care for their opinion or are just going to put up some weak-ass shit about Farve than don't post because your replies here in this thread are among the dumbest.
Thanks asshole, I did just that and came to the conclusion that I would much rather be entertained by a Pats fans perspective on the subject of Mangini & Pioli than your pussy take that nobody cares for their opinion.
If you don't care for their opinion or are just going to put up some weak-ass shit about Farve than don't post because your replies here in this thread are among the dumbest.
Yikes. Why would a Patriots fan not like Mangini? I just don't get why...oh maybe because I haven't lived in a cave the last 3 years. Why would Patriot fans not like the man who said their God of a head coach cheated his way to 3 super bowls? Oh well.
-Jeff- -
I'm kind of with Stan on this - you guys sometimes have a habit of not giving other fans a fair chance to give you some outside perspective on things. The guy simply was giving some insight on a coach he has experience with in NE, and yes it was only an opinion, but clearly he didn't need to be briushed aside like that.
We're all frustrated in Cleveland and I for one do not want Mangini. Doesn't make me correct, but it doesn't mean the guy from Boston doesn't mean well by coming here.
Some of you become completely unspooled at the thought of anyone coming here to talk football. They're not all idiots, IMO.
I'm kind of with Stan on this - you guys sometimes have a habit of not giving other fans a fair chance to give you some outside perspective on things. The guy simply was giving some insight on a coach he has experience with in NE, and yes it was only an opinion, but clearly he didn't need to be briushed aside like that.
We're all frustrated in Cleveland and I for one do not want Mangini. Doesn't make me correct, but it doesn't mean the guy from Boston doesn't mean well by coming here.
Some of you become completely unspooled at the thought of anyone coming here to talk football. They're not all idiots, IMO.
Not all idiots but definitely biased.
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Wow, you guys are assholes. That was a great post from that Pat's fan. Thanks JoesixPat, thanks for taking the time.
I guess one could apply the ole "that's what we thought when you guys hired Belichick" cry ... but that's what those who drank the kool-aid here in Cleveland might have thought, but many of us could see what Belichick was building and it eventually lead to the Ravens taking home the Lombardy. Can you say the same for the Jet's? What has Mangini built up there?
Belichick was side-swiped at the end here by the announcement of the move, but he assembled a pretty damn good football team before the carpet was pulled out from under him. He made the difficult roster moves that we cry for someone to come in and do today. He stock piled the draft picks that landed the Ravens Ray Lewis & Jonathan Ogden.
WTF has Mangini done?
I appreciate this Pat's fans perspective on how Belichick and Pioli worked together ... much better insight than one of our bias opinions.
I happen to like these opposing fans (Jets & Pats) views on this subject, if you don't have anything constructive to counter than don't reply.
Yes let's listen to a fan of a team Mangini never was the head coach for, played reasonably well against the last 3 years and called them out for cheating and cost them a first round pick and put their 3 super bowls into question. Get serious.
Yes let's listen to a fan of a team Mangini never was the head coach for, played reasonably well against the last 3 years and called them out for cheating and cost them a first round pick and put their 3 super bowls into question. Get serious.
T, am I supposed to listen to a group of fans that have had 3 head coaches in 9 years going on a 4th, hiring their 3rd GM in ten seasons, cannot beat the Steelers, have had 10-11 starting QB's, no playoff victories and two winning seasons? I am pretty sure we could use some outside perspective once in a while - we're developing Stockholm Syndrome, IMO.
I will gladly start listening to anyone outside the Browns community for a while.
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Thanks asshole, I did just that and came to the conclusion that I would much rather be entertained by a Pats fans perspective on the subject of Mangini & Pioli than your pussy take that nobody cares for their opinion.
If you don't care for their opinion or are just going to put up some weak-ass shit about Farve than don't post because your replies here in this thread are among the dumbest.
Yikes. Why would a Patriots fan not like Mangini? I just don't get why...oh maybe because I haven't lived in a cave the last 3 years. Why would Patriot fans not like the man who said their God of a head coach cheated his way to 3 super bowls? Oh well.
Yikes. Why would a Patriots fan not like Mangini? I just don't get why...oh maybe because I haven't lived in a cave the last 3 years. Why would Patriot fans not like the man who said their God of a head coach cheated his way to 3 super bowls? Oh well.
My Bad, you are so right ... let's sink everything we have into a coach who is most famous for squealing and signing Farve out of retirement.
Bring on those opposing fans who aren't bias toward Mangini, to tell us all about all those accomplishments he's never had.
List Mangini's highlights below:
#101.) He squealed on the Pats.
#102.) He Saved Farve from retirement.
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#103.) Belichick had problems in his first gig too ... so this means Mangini will win multi-Super Bowls at his next stop! Yea!
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Yes let's listen to a fan of a team Mangini never was the head coach for, played reasonably well against the last 3 years and called them out for cheating and cost them a first round pick and put their 3 super bowls into question. Get serious.
T, am I supposed to listen to a group of fans that have had 3 head coaches in 9 years going on a 4th, hiring their 3rd GM in ten seasons, cannot beat the Steelers, have had 10-11 starting QB's, no playoff victories and two winning seasons? I am pretty sure we could use some outside perspective once in a while - we're developing Stockholm Syndrome, IMO.
I will gladly start listening to anyone outside the Browns community for a while.
T, am I supposed to listen to a group of fans that have had 3 head coaches in 9 years going on a 4th, hiring their 3rd GM in ten seasons, cannot beat the Steelers, have had 10-11 starting QB's, no playoff victories and two winning seasons? I am pretty sure we could use some outside perspective once in a while - we're developing Stockholm Syndrome, IMO.
I will gladly start listening to anyone outside the Browns community for a while.
That's more than fair. I'll admit I overreacted. But I will stick to not listening to someone who hates the guy who might get hired here.
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