So Kiko isn't being fined?

D Bone

You've been..........Vaporized

VaporTrail

@letsgojackets said:
Oh wow. Imagine that Kiko looks up and then crowns him. Sorry for the shitty thread guys Vaportrail has put me in my place. I won't start any threads from now on. Go Browns.

You have no idea what you're talking about, you can see that he lines up for his ribs at the same time Hoyer decides to drop. It was definitely helmet to helmet, so there is an argument for a flag, but it was clearly not intentional so there's no cogent argument for a fine. Why are you still whining about it?

FairHooker11

@slowburn said:
that's what kiko is paid to do. he won't get fined for a legal hit. if anything he will get a bonus check for a job well done

is Greg Williams back as D coordinator? lol

Tim Couch Pulls Out

Had Hoyer not slid, it would a been a near textbook hit to the ribs, minus Kiko not wrapping up.

However, Hoyer chose to slide instead of stepping out of bounds, which means Kiko hit him higher.

A unfortunate injury, but a clean hit. No fines.

The Gipper

@vaportrail said:

You have no idea what you're talking about, you can see that he lines up for his ribs at the same time Hoyer decides to drop. It was definitely helmet to helmet, so there is an argument for a flag, but it was clearly not intentional so there's no cogent argument for a fine. Why are you still whining about it?

Actually, this view gives me a new perspective on it. Again, the hit to the head had nothing to do with causing the injury...but it is a fact that he does lower his head in order to make helmet to helmet contact.

That is clear to me.

What may also be apparent is that he is allowed to do this...one Hoyer breaks contain and starts to scramble he loses his protection and is just another runner....who, apparently under the rules, can be the subject of a helmet to helmet hit.

Remember the James Harrison hit on Josh Cribbs a couple of years back? He planted the crown of his helmet into Cribb's helmet.....no penalty, no fine, no nothing. This is apparently the same sort of thing.

calfoxwc

You can lead with your helmet? Surely that can't be.... I understand that he's a runner...

but spearing anybody with the helmet surely isn't legal.

gftChris

@calfoxwc said:

You can lead with your helmet? Surely that can't be.... I understand that he's a runner...

but spearing anybody with the helmet surely isn't legal.

It's not even legal to do it as the runner any more. To be fair, he's at most leading half with his helmet, more with his shoulder. Trouble is, if you try to tackle someone with your shoulder, you're head's going to be in the vicinity, you can't lead with your shoulder and leave your head behind...

calfoxwc

ya, but the shoulder straight on, leads with the head first. He could

have side-shoulder bumped him out of bounds in a huge way, sending him flying

out of bounds - but he clearly dove at him helmet first. I don't see an attempt

to hit him with the shoulder there. Or shoved him out of bounds with his hands.

Osiris

@the-gipper said:

Actually, this view gives me a new perspective on it. Again, the hit to the head had nothing to do with causing the injury...but it is a fact that he does lower his head in order to make helmet to helmet contact.

That is clear to me.

What may also be apparent is that he is allowed to do this...one Hoyer breaks contain and starts to scramble he loses his protection and is just another runner....who, apparently under the rules, can be the subject of a helmet to helmet hit.

Remember the James Harrison hit on Josh Cribbs a couple of years back? He planted the crown of his helmet into Cribb's helmet.....no penalty, no fine, no nothing. This is apparently the same sort of thing.

I just have to disagree, he is lowering his head to chest-level before Hoyer drops and ends up with his head at that same level. I don't think the helmet-to-helmet contact is intentional. It wasn't even a direct helmet-to-helmet hit. I love Hoyer, but the injury is on him. He should have either stayed upright and ran out of bounds, or entered a clean QB slide earlier.

gftChris

@calfoxwc said:

ya, but the shoulder straight on, leads with the head first. He could

have side-shoulder bumped him out of bounds in a huge way, sending him flying

out of bounds - but he clearly dove at him helmet first. I don't see an attempt

to hit him with the shoulder there. Or shoved him out of bounds with his hands.

You can see in the gif the arms go round, he's trying to wrap him up, rather than knock him out of bounds. It's just bad luck for the helmet to helmet.

The Gipper

@osiris said:

I just have to disagree, he is lowering his head to chest-level before Hoyer drops and ends up with his head at that same level. I don't think the helmet-to-helmet contact is intentional. It wasn't even a direct helmet-to-helmet hit. I love Hoyer, but the injury is on him. He should have either stayed upright and ran out of bounds, or entered a clean QB slide earlier.

Well, the key phrase as you said is "lowering his helmet".... on that play, to me seeing it, it is completely counterproductive for him to have lowered his helmet. His tackle would have been far more efficient if he had not lowered the helmet. The only purpose I see for him lowering his head is to crashbang into Hoyer's head.

Again...I am not saying that this play was illegal or should have been penalized, nor do I believe at all that the head to head hit had anything to do with the injury (it could actually have been worse had he kept his head up). I just say that lowering his helmet was superfluous.

Tour2ma

From http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000238662/article/new-nfl-rules-crownofhelmet-change-to-help-runner-defender

NEW RULE: A ban on a ball carrier initiating contact with the crown of his helmet in the open field or by a defender while making a tackle.

What the rule changes: A 15-yard penalty will be called if a runner or a tackler initiates forcible contact by delivering a blow with the top/crown of his helmet against an opponent when both players clearly are outside the tackle box (an area extending from tackle-to-tackle and from 3 yards beyond the line of scrimmage to the offensive team's end line). Incidental contact by the helmet of a runner or a tackler against an opponent would not be deemed a foul.

To my eye what helmet to helmet there was, was an incidental, glancing blow.

And clearly from the gif the contact was with the side and not the crown of Alonso's helmet.

hoorta

Just my .02- it clearly should have been a penalty for helmet to helmet, though I believe it was inadvertent contact.. Not enough to warrant a fine. The injury is all on Hoyer for lousy slide technique.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

You're hitting a human around their shoulders with your shoulders.

Your helmets are going to hit.

That doesn't make the hit a helmet-to-helmet hit.

The following is taken from the 2011 NFL Rule Book (pages 73-74) and defines players who are in a defenseless posture. The material is also covered in the 2011 League Policies for Players Manual, distributed to all players in training camp.

It is a foul if a player initiates unnecessary contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture.

(a) Players in a defenseless posture are:

(1) A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass;

(2) A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player;

(3) A runner already in the grasp of a tackler and whose forward progress has been stopped;

(4) A kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air;

(5) A player on the ground at the end of a play;

(6) A kicker/punter during the kick or during the return;

(7) A quarterback at any time after a change of possession, and

(8) A player who receives a blindside block when the blocker is moving toward his own endline and approaches the opponent from behind or from the side.

( Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:

(1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless players head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless player by encircling or grasping him; and

(2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/hairline parts of the helmet against any part of the defenseless players body.

Note: The provisions of (2) do not prohibit incidental contact by the mask or helmet in the course of a conventional tackle on an opponent.

The was no contact whatsoever from the crown of Alonso's helmet. The first contact was made with his shoulder pads and his helmet inadvertently hit Hoyer's.

It's over, drop it.

Lock this shit.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@hoorta said:
Just my .02- it clearly should have been a penalty for helmet to helmet, though I believe it was inadvertent contact.. Not enough to warrant a fine. The injury is all on Hoyer for lousy slide technique.

There is no penalty for incidental helmet to helmet.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@the-gipper said:

Well, the key phrase as you said is "lowering his helmet".... on that play, to me seeing it, it is completely counterproductive for him to have lowered his helmet. His tackle would have been far more efficient if he had not lowered the helmet. The only purpose I see for him lowering his head is to crashbang into Hoyer's head.

Again...I am not saying that this play was illegal or should have been penalized, nor do I believe at all that the head to head hit had anything to do with the injury (it could actually have been worse had he kept his head up). I just say that lowering his helmet was superfluous.

Fair enough.

You lower your entire body and dive at a player and try to keep your head up. It's possible, but it's tough and it's unnatural.

Especially with a 15 pound helmet strapped to your head.

Zombo

@tour2ma said:

Hate to see either QB injured, but...

Both were clean hits.

Both were unfortunate injuries.

Yes.

Let's start acting like AFC North / Old School AFC Central fans that we are quit whining for other team's players to get fined.

Hoyer slid like a tard.

Zombo

DieHardBrownsFan

I looked at it and it was a clean hit. We need lawyers to review it now to determine? Quit whining.

The Gipper

@diehardbrownsfan said:
I looked at it and it was a clean hit. We need lawyers to review it now to determine? Quit whining.

You always need lawyers.

Nice Brian Sipe Avatar. That's new, no?

Clevfan4life

it was legal. If one of our guys had hit a qb like that and got flagged we'd all be throwing our tv sets out the window and baying for referee blood. It sucks it happened to our guy but holy fuck u get a flag these days for whispering softly in a qb's ear if it would be alright with him if you gently laid him to the ground. I mean fuck football is getting dangerously close to unwatcheable.