Pluto Article on QB
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Formerly Sane said:
The odds don't turn just because you want them to. The odds will turn when the Browns organization turns them, and that will take some serious doing given the current status of the organization. As you pointed out, nothing has worked! Because they have tried multiple flavors of whipped cream on the turd......they gotta get rid of the turd first.
They have gotten rid of all the turds....sometimes many times over. Including a couple of turd owners: Modell/Randy.
And turd GMs: Clark/Savage/Davis/Heckert/Lombardi etc
And turd coaches: Palmer/Davis/Crennel/Mangini/Shurmur/Chud etc.
This team has acted like Romans at a vomitorium. They keep eating and puking and shitting every thing they have.
So, just which turd are you talking about?
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Formerly Sane said:
Yes, they have gotten rid of everybody many times over....and that is part of the problem; successful NFL franchises don't do it that way. They need a flush of everything from the owner down to the ball-boy and they need an owner who is willing to build something successful in-spite of the city where it will exist. Time will tell if this is the guy.....I don't see it.
A billion dollars says he is the guy we will have to stick with.....unless he gets suspended. (but even then we would still have his family)
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I still fail to see how not addressing an organizational hole is somehow considered BETTER than making an attempt to fix it. I don't see the Browns taking a RB with the 4th overall, so what exactly is the point of this pondering? Would we rather see Sammy Watkins taken in that spot and Fales (as an example) with a second rounder?
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Can I get a fuckin' aye?
WSS
Can I get a fuckin' aye?
WSS
AYE! (can't believe no one else Ayed...)
Okay this is kind of off topic...
As you may have figured by now... it's better to start your own thread than expect replies to your self-acknowledged derail.
It's a worthwhile convo... just no place for it here.
There's correlation, I guess. But no causation. Poor reporting, Grossi.
Good way of putting it...
With his examples so heavily skewed to the last three drafts, his attempt to preempt any criticism with "Granted, some have just entered the league in the last few years," showed that even he understood how thin his case was.
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The fallacy of this whole debate is using the Super Bowl wins as the measure of success. No single player is responsible for winning Super Bowls. The value of a QB should be found in measuring wins and losses before and after the player is selected.
"I said, 'I need someone who's going to want to get on the roller coaster with me knowing that it's not always going to be fun,'" -Paul DePodesta -
Formerly Sane said:
But the question is...
1. Are you and all the other radical Browns fans willing to be patient, or do you expect results this year just because worst to first has happened before?
It doesn't matter what we want. We just want wins. The only person whose patience is warranted is the owner...as he makes the ultimate decisions.
We can express what we would like, but it is totally irrelevent to what happens.
2. Are you and all the other radical Browns fans willing to admit that the Browns have sucked because the Browns have sucked, not because the other teams cheat, not because the refs hate the Browns, not because the NFL is against the Browns, blah, blah, blah.
I don't know....how about "all of the above"?
3. Are you and all the other radical Browns fans willing to admit that good players, coaches, and management are not going to come here of their own free will until the Browns earn that consideration, (which is not easy with the city of Cleveland hanging around the Browns neck like an albatross) or are you going to continue to expect Bill Cowher and top named free agents to come in and rescue the Browns from themselves?
Yes, I admit that winning starts with good players/coaches/management, what other way is there? Oh, yea...it is ONLY fucking idiot Steeler fans that think fans have anything to do with winning......and I don't care how those good players/coaches/managers get here.....it can be big names like Cowher, it can be free agents, it can be draft choices. It can be complete unknowns. Everyone was a complete unknown once. The choices of Noll and Cowher were second guessed because they were both fairly unknown quantities at the time. Same with Mike Tomlin.
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The fallacy of this whole debate is using the Super Bowl wins as the measure of success. No single player is responsible for winning Super Bowls. The value of a QB should be found in measuring wins and losses before and after the player is selected.
I dont even think thats fair. Its his stats and the 'ol reliable eyeball test.The fallacy of this whole debate is using the Super Bowl wins as the measure of success. No single player is responsible for winning Super Bowls. The value of a QB should be found in measuring wins and losses before and after the player is selected.
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Formerly Sane said:
2. Are you and all the other radical Browns fans willing to admit that the Browns have sucked because the Browns have sucked, not because the other teams cheat, not because the refs hate the Browns, not because the NFL is against the Browns, blah, blah, blah.
Karlis Missed, I was there. ..and yes, the refs hate the Browns. But you are indeed correct that we've sucked mostly on our own with bonehead front office moves and crappy play on the field.
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Formerly Sane said:
2. Are you and all the other radical Browns fans willing to admit that the Browns have sucked because the Browns have sucked, not because the other teams cheat, not because the refs hate the Browns, not because the NFL is against the Browns, blah, blah, blah.
Karlis Missed, I was there. ..and yes, the refs hate the Browns. But you are indeed correct that we've sucked mostly on our own with bonehead front office moves and crappy play on the field.
Formerly Sane said:
2. Are you and all the other radical Browns fans willing to admit that the Browns have sucked because the Browns have sucked, not because the other teams cheat, not because the refs hate the Browns, not because the NFL is against the Browns, blah, blah, blah.
Karlis Missed, I was there. ..and yes, the refs hate the Browns. But you are indeed correct that we've sucked mostly on our own with bonehead front office moves and crappy play on the field.
He Missed.
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I think the point is more about you don't need an Andrew luck or top 10 QB to go to or win a super bowl. A lot of teams with top 10 QBs haven't had so much SB luck.Of the 10 guys he points out, I'd take 7 of them.
Pluto is an idiot if he is saying only guys to win a SB are good QBs.
I'd take Andrew Luck in a heartbeat.
Andrew Luck is quite possibly a whole different story than the Stafford/Bradford/Flacco first round QBs. Andrew Luck impacts his team in a much bigger way than the others.
Of the guys he pointed out though, I'd probably take Luck/Newton/Ryan/Stafford/Bradford over what we have now. But you take Stafford/Bradford/Ryan (I only really ljke Ryan from these 3) or the other guys and their impact isn't enough to make us playoff worthy anyway.
I think the point is more about you don't need an Andrew luck or top 10 QB to go to or win a super bowl. A lot of teams with top 10 QBs haven't had so much SB luck.
Andrew Luck is quite possibly a whole different story than the Stafford/Bradford/Flacco first round QBs. Andrew Luck impacts his team in a much bigger way than the others.
Of the guys he pointed out though, I'd probably take Luck/Newton/Ryan/Stafford/Bradford over what we have now. But you take Stafford/Bradford/Ryan (I only really ljke Ryan from these 3) or the other guys and their impact isn't enough to make us playoff worthy anyway.
Fuck his point. If you want a QB, you need to draft early and draft right.
Compare Brady as an example to all the other 6th round QB's drafted over the last 20 years. LOL....if you look at percentage of chance, you better draft early.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. -
Formerly Sane said:
2. Are you and all the other radical Browns fans willing to admit that the Browns have sucked because the Browns have sucked, not because the other teams cheat, not because the refs hate the Browns, not because the NFL is against the Browns, blah, blah, blah.
Karlis Missed, I was there. ..and yes, the refs hate the Browns. But you are indeed correct that we've sucked mostly on our own with bonehead front office moves and crappy play on the field.
He Missed.
Zombo said:
He Missed.
Freeze frame this at the 0:57 mark, which is the point where the ball and the goal post come together. If the post had been about 3 feet higher there would have been no doubt. The ball would have missed, or at best it would have clunked off the goal post back onto the field.
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I think the point is more about you don't need an Andrew luck or top 10 QB to go to or win a super bowl. A lot of teams with top 10 QBs haven't had so much SB luck.
Andrew Luck is quite possibly a whole different story than the Stafford/Bradford/Flacco first round QBs. Andrew Luck impacts his team in a much bigger way than the others.
Of the guys he pointed out though, I'd probably take Luck/Newton/Ryan/Stafford/Bradford over what we have now. But you take Stafford/Bradford/Ryan (I only really ljke Ryan from these 3) or the other guys and their impact isn't enough to make us playoff worthy anyway.
Fuck his point. If you want a QB, you need to draft early and draft right.
Compare Brady as an example to all the other 6th round QB's drafted over the last 20 years. LOL....if you look at percentage of chance, you better draft early.
Fuck his point. If you want a QB, you need to draft early and draft right.
Compare Brady as an example to all the other 6th round QB's drafted over the last 20 years. LOL....if you look at percentage of chance, you better draft early.
I agree that that is the best way. 50% of all starting SB QBs in the 21st century have been first round draft picks. (not necessarily high.....some like Rodgers were 24th or Flacco 18th).
But then 50% of them were NOT first round picks. but came from some other round/source (3 were UFAs).
But yes, chances are better to get a QB from the first round than from any other single source.
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Man we beat this QB stuff to death on here, but this is interesting reading.
Man we beat this QB stuff to death on here, but this is interesting reading.
Misleading stat:
From 2002-2011 only 3 QBs in the AFC got a team to a Super Bowl: Ben Roethlisber (2-1:3), Tom Brady, (2-2:4) Peyton Manning (1-1:1)
In the NFC, Kurt Warner pulled out 3, Eli Manning 2, Aaron Rodgers 1, Donovan McNabb 1 , Drew Brees 1
Who wants to bet that every QB listed above will be at minimium a finalist for the Hall of Fame, maybe Eli, Ben, McNabb don't make it. - but I bet 2 Super Bowls gets them in eventually.
You are left with a former MVP - Gannon, All Pro Hasslebeck and guys with a lot of future left to be sorted out.
You need a guy who can play QB. Don't try and over think it.
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If you went back in time you probably wouldn't take Collins/Dilfer/McNabb in the top 10 either.
Given what was otherwise available in the years they came out I would likely disagree. At least about McNabb and Collins.
McNabb had a near HOF career. And Collins had a very long and productive career and won a ton of games.
Even Dilfer got a Super Bowl win.
If you would guarantee me that the QB we take in the top ten of this next draft would get this team a Super Bowl win, I would take that.
Given what was otherwise available in the years they came out I would likely disagree. At least about McNabb and Collins.
McNabb had a near HOF career. And Collins had a very long and productive career and won a ton of games.
Even Dilfer got a Super Bowl win.
If you would guarantee me that the QB we take in the top ten of this next draft would get this team a Super Bowl win, I would take that.
Derek Carr will, I guarantee that.
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Given what was otherwise available in the years they came out I would likely disagree. At least about McNabb and Collins.
McNabb had a near HOF career. And Collins had a very long and productive career and won a ton of games.
Even Dilfer got a Super Bowl win.
If you would guarantee me that the QB we take in the top ten of this next draft would get this team a Super Bowl win, I would take that.
Derek Carr will, I guarantee that.
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I fail to understand all the arguing. The most important position in football is the QB. The difference between a great QB and a decent one is huge in terms of W/L's. So it makes sense that they would be highly valued and if apparently talented, they would go high in the draft. As to whether they pan out to be as effective as projected is another story. Furthermore, for a position that is so important, it's amazing to see how poor NFL teams are at evaluating such talent. How does a Brady fall to the 6th round, how does a 3rd rounder or a undrafted player win the Superbowl? How can a Romo be a walk-on? Seriously, I don't think NFL talent coordinators have a clue. How many times do NHL goalie's taken at #1 not become HOF? How many minor league pitchers projected to be stars, don't achieve that status. Sure there are many examples as nothing is flawless. But figuring out what makes a great NFL QB is apparently a mystery, even to the experts. I saw Doug Flutie, well-passed his prime, carry a team that was completely useless to victory on MNF. Short, old, and with a less than cannon-like arm, but nobody could stop him that night. Fran Tarkington, Warren Moon, and all the highly drafted busts are prime examples of what I'm talking about.
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Man we beat this QB stuff to death on here, but this is interesting reading.
Misleading stat:
From 2002-2011 only 3 QBs in the AFC got a team to a Super Bowl: Ben Roethlisber (2-1:3), Tom Brady, (2-2:4) Peyton Manning (1-1:1)
In the NFC, Kurt Warner pulled out 3, Eli Manning 2, Aaron Rodgers 1, Donovan McNabb 1 , Drew Brees 1
Who wants to bet that every QB listed above will be at minimium a finalist for the Hall of Fame, maybe Eli, Ben, McNabb don't make it. - but I bet 2 Super Bowls gets them in eventually.
You are left with a former MVP - Gannon, All Pro Hasslebeck and guys with a lot of future left to be sorted out.
You need a guy who can play QB. Don't try and over think it.
Misleading stat:
From 2002-2011 only 3 QBs in the AFC got a team to a Super Bowl: Ben Roethlisber (2-1:3), Tom Brady, (2-2:4) Peyton Manning (1-1:1)
In the NFC, Kurt Warner pulled out 3, Eli Manning 2, Aaron Rodgers 1, Donovan McNabb 1 , Drew Brees 1
Who wants to bet that every QB listed above will be at minimium a finalist for the Hall of Fame, maybe Eli, Ben, McNabb don't make it. - but I bet 2 Super Bowls gets them in eventually.
You are left with a former MVP - Gannon, All Pro Hasslebeck and guys with a lot of future left to be sorted out.
You need a guy who can play QB. Don't try and over think it.
I don't think anyone is overthinking it. We all know the Browns need a QB. The question is will these guys be tantamount to the Mannings/Brees/BR/McNabb/Rodger etc types.....or will they be the Christian Ponders/Blaine Gabberts/Brady Quinns/Jamarcus Russells etc. etc. Better to take a brilliant LB than a bust QB.
That is where the thought processes go.
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What exactly does your guarantee consist of?
I don't know what it consists of, but it promises that Carr won't last more than 3 years in Cleveland.
Whatever happened to TR and McCoy?
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The fact that PG has jacked off multiple times all over his Derek Carr poster. That's the only guarantee...
I don't know what it consists of, but it promises that Carr won't last more than 3 years in Cleveland.
Whatever happened to TR and McCoy?
LMAO!!
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