QB is the TOP Pick. What Happens if the Hoyer Experiment Fails?
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@Canton Mike
Peyton had way hurtin' numbers his rookie season and anyone saying at the time he was a potential HOFer was thought to have lost their minds.
I'm sorry, but you just made a RIDICULOUS statement!
We were not talking about 1st SEASONS. The draft happens BEFORE that, remember? Peyton Manning was definitely classed as "elite" pre draft & has proven that true. Don't come off with that "rookie season" shit with me.
Mike
Noted.I'm sorry, but you just made a RIDICULOUS statement!
We were not talking about 1st SEASONS. The draft happens BEFORE that, remember? Peyton Manning was definitely classed as "elite" pre draft & has proven that true. Don't come off with that "rookie season" shit with me.
Mike
Maybe try to relax. My 'Peyton' comment was only meant to differentiate Peyton from Luck...whom had way better rookie numbers than Peyton regardless of where they were drafted.
Otherwise I totally agree with your comment that includes the Luck/Peyton reference.
Farmer & Pettine will make up their OWN minds (may have already!). What I don't get is how some of you folks think that just because a QB is rated #1, #2, #3, etc in THIS draft, he's ELITE????? There are concerns with all these QBs this year. There is NO Peyton or Andrew in this draft. There MAY be a Tom or Russell (or we may already have him), but we don't know that & I sure as hell wouldn't trade up for ANY of these QBs this year. IMHO, trade down if anything. I trust these pro's ability to make the right decision.
As someone posted earlier, don't break the bank on a question mark, fill needs, then trade picks down the road when we can afford to do that.
None of us really know what'll happen, so I'm just gonna sit back & enjoy the ride with Farmer & Pettine driving. Then I'll support the Browns Team they put on the field.
Mike
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Hoyer failing is as likely as Gordon failing a piss test. If that happens I don't give a shot who we have at QB we aren't winning any ball games.
I just don't see a superstar QB worthy of a 4 in the draft. Bortles maybe? That really only if Watkins is gone.
So basically, you don't think we have a shot of improving next season at all? Is that where others are coming from too?
So basically, you don't think we have a shot of improving next season at all? Is that where others are coming from too?
Not sure where you made that connection? Are you just trying to make it for into you're argument against not picking a QB at 4?
I definitely think we could be better, we could also be a wash and break about where we did this year. There are a lot of holes that need filled.
To the point you've been making through the thread. I think taking a QB at 4 -IS- taking a flyer, not drafting Watkins/Mack. This year there are no 'sure things' at QB but there are at OT, WR, LB. Bortles. Manziel and Bridge could suck balls like Weeden did and McCarron and Garropollo could become studs like Flacco and Wilson.
I don't think drafting Watkins is taking a flyer nor is drafting Mack, drafting 1 of the 3 QBs is taking a flyer. It's a decision F&P might make but I still think it's a flyer.
I want them to draft Watkins instead of a QB because I think they could be really good next year and the immediate future. If I wanted them to draft a QB it would be because I don't think they will be much for the next year or two and they can throw those to grooming a rookie QB.
Hope that cleared things up.
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and he also hired a guy to do the job as GM and build a team that will field the best results.
not bet it all on some yahoo.
would you want your job resting on JF?
let's meet back here same time next year and see who says what then.
i might be calling you a genious or you be saying i was right. we'll see.
If I were the GM and the owner said get me JF, then I'd damn well get him. Sometimes you have the let the sphincter loosen up and pull the trigger when you have the guy in your sights thats going to bring this team back to glory despite what the naysayers think.
LOL @ Mike... you know you can't quit us... (and I'm not channeling Brokeback anything...)
Nice to see all the McCarron lovers blooming with the spring flowers. Where y'all been?
If I were the GM and the owner said get me JF, then I'd damn well get him. Sometimes you have the let the sphincter loosen up and pull the trigger when you have the guy in your sights thats going to bring this team back to glory despite what the naysayers think.
Here's the thing... Jimmy would never say "get me JF". How do I know? Because Haslam has proven he is not the 2nd coming of Jerry Jones (thank God).
He just ran off two guys who were feeding him BS and put a real football guy in charge of his "personnel" department... Farmer. I have no doubt that Farmer did not stick around here to take personnel orders from Haslam.
Haslam will set the franchise goals and approve the budget, He will not dictate the means of achieving the goals. It's what real businessmen do.
If JF lands in CLE, then it will be because in Farmer's judgment, he's the guy.
I don't see it happening... I would not like it... but I would accept it. Ditto for any of the other so-called "top prospects" in the 2014 draft.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
LOL @ Mike... you know you can't quit us... (and I'm not channeling Brokeback anything...)
Nice to see all the McCarron lovers blooming with the spring flowers. Where y'all been?
If I were the GM and the owner said get me JF, then I'd damn well get him. Sometimes you have the let the sphincter loosen up and pull the trigger when you have the guy in your sights thats going to bring this team back to glory despite what the naysayers think.
Here's the thing... Jimmy would never say "get me JF". How do I know? Because Haslam has proven he is not the 2nd coming of Jerry Jones (thank God).
He just ran off two guys who were feeding him BS and put a real football guy in charge of his "personnel" department... Farmer. I have no doubt that Farmer did not stick around here to take personnel orders from Haslam.
Haslam will set the franchise goals and approve the budget, He will not dictate the means of achieving the goals. It's what real businessmen do.
If JF lands in CLE, then it will be because in Farmer's judgment, he's the guy.
I don't see it happening... I would not like it... but I would accept it. Ditto for any of the other so-called "top prospects" in the 2014 draft.
LOL @ Mike... you know you can't quit us... (and I'm not channeling Brokeback anything...)
Nice to see all the McCarron lovers blooming with the spring flowers. Where y'all been?
Here's the thing... Jimmy would never say "get me JF". How do I know? Because Haslam has proven he is not the 2nd coming of Jerry Jones (thank God).
He just ran off two guys who were feeding him BS and put a real football guy in charge of his "personnel" department... Farmer. I have no doubt that Farmer did not stick around here to take personnel orders from Haslam.
Haslam will set the franchise goals and approve the budget, He will not dictate the means of achieving the goals. It's what real businessmen do.
If JF lands in CLE, then it will be because in Farmer's judgment, he's the guy.
I don't see it happening... I would not like it... but I would accept it. Ditto for any of the other so-called "top prospects" in the 2014 draft.
this 100%.
i'd have to root for anyone that's on the roster to make the browns better.
doesn't mean i won't have the 'Please get better soon Johnny' or 'Please God let Johnny walk again!' tshirts in full production the first time he gets carried off with the field spitting out teeth and grass. (moneymaker hollar!).
just kidding. hey the kid might be lights out. if he lands here don't expect me to be a gay JF fan like a lot of you already are. like dress up like him with a girl's wig on, fake freckles and a short brown skirt chuggin beer from a keg and smokin blunts. nope those days are long gone. HA!
i have a feeling we'll be watching JF's maturation process from afar. unless farmer has the meanest poker face in town.
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This draft doesn't really have the "elite" qbs that are worth a #4 pick. What it does have aarea bunch of sleeper QBs that may be elite. While its hard to find that Russell Wilson or tom Brady, I rather take my chances later in the draft on one of these guys than waste a top pick on a qb who isn't worth the pick.
BPA! Load the draft. Pick up mccarron, mettwnberger, Murray or whoever later.
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XxDaBuckeyexX said:
so youre against the top 3 at 4, and also at say 16-20? Past failures shouldn't stop us from making moves that makes sense. How does Brady Quinn factor in to whether whoever we pick there succeeds?
IMO Bortles is the only one that makes sense @ #4- and he'll probably be gone. Bridgewater could easily be a new rendition of the oft injured Sam Bradford. Manziel's game may not translate to the pros. Carr shows Weeden tendencies to collapse under pressure.
The guys who are hot to push all the chips in on a qb this year are prematurely throwing Hoyer under the bus, just my .02 .
XxDaBuckeyexX said:
But you can never plan on getting someone next year if you need an upgrade this year. Pick a guy out of this class. Jimmies win now attitude says he probably agrees with me.
You're totally missing the point- you don't draft for need if the talent isn't there. I'll take a Mack or Watkins over any of the top qbs. BTW, a "win now" attitude rarely works with a rookie qb running the show. There isn't any Andrew Luck in this draft- sorry about that.
No, the smart thing may well be to follow (hate to say it) the Steelers model- draft your franchise qb last. Incidentally, that also worked quite well for Kansas City last year-via a trade. As was pointed out- none of last year's NFL Final Four drafted their qb in the first round. Of last year's top 20 qbs- only 10 were drafted in the top 5, so if we have a guy targeted in 2015, it may well be possible to trade up then to grab him.
IMO Bortles is the only one that makes sense @ #4- and he'll probably be gone. Bridgewater could easily be a new rendition of the oft injured Sam Bradford. Manziel's gam e may not translate to the pros. Carr shows Weeden tendencies to collapse under pressure.
The guys who are hot to push all the chips in on a qb this year are prematurely throwing Hoyer under the bus, just my .02 .
You're totally missing the point- you don't draft for need if the talent isn't there. I'll take a Mack or Watkins over any of the top qbs. BTW, a "win now" attitude rarely works with a rookie qb running the show. There isn't any Andrew Luck in this draft- sorry about that.
No, the smart thing may well be to follow (hate to say it) the Steelers model- draft your franchise qb last. Incidentally, that also worked quite well for Kansas City last year-via a trade. As was pointed out- none of last year's NFL Final Four drafted their qb in the first round. Of last year's top 20 qbs- only 10 were drafted in the top 5, so if we have a guy targeted in 2015, it may well be possible to trade up then to grab him.
None of the final four drafted their guy in the first round however one was the #1 overall pick
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It's very simple... If they like a QB, they draft him at #4. It could be any of the 4 QBs. We have so many damn picks and this is such a deep draft, why not use our pick on a QB? Sure, we'd be missing out on guys like Mack, Clowney, Watkins, and the top OTs, but we don't need #1s at any of those positions... we already have them.
So, to all you QB-haters, I already feel bad for you b/c we're using that 1st pick on a QB... We'll still be able to get a great WR2, a good ILB and RB, and probably even a CB2 somewhere else in the draft, so calm down. I just hope whichever QB they pick, he gets a chance to sit behind Hoyer until he's ready...
#Justsayin' -
It's very simple... If they like a QB, they draft him at #4. It could be any of the 4 QBs. We have so many damn picks and this is such a deep draft, why not use our pick on a QB? Sure, we'd be missing out on guys like Mack, Clowney, Watkins, and the top OTs, but we don't need #1s at any of those positions... we already have them.
So, to all you QB-haters, I already feel bad for you b/c we're using that 1st pick on a QB... We'll still be able to get a great WR2, a good ILB and RB, and probably even a CB2 somewhere else in the draft, so calm down. I just hope whichever QB they pick, he gets a chance to sit behind Hoyer until he's ready...
It's very simple... If they like a QB, they draft him at #4. It could be any of the 4 QBs. We have so many damn picks and this is such a deep draft, why not use our pick on a QB? Sure, we'd be missing out on guys like Mack, Clowney, Watkins, and the top OTs, but we don't need #1s at any of those positions... we already have them.
So, to all you QB-haters, I already feel bad for you b/c we're using that 1st pick on a QB... We'll still be able to get a great WR2, a good ILB and RB, and probably even a CB2 somewhere else in the draft, so calm down. I just hope whichever QB they pick, he gets a chance to sit behind Hoyer until he's ready...
Care to place a wager on that scenario? I see it as very simple too. We are not taking a QB at #4. We may not even take one at #26 but it is possible at that slot.
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^ Thanks, h.... saved me the time...
The hell with next year. Last year everyone thought this was the year of the QB in the draft. There's starting NFL quarterbacks in this draft, and we have the picks now to get one.
"Starting" is not the bar I am looking to clear. We already have a starter IMO.
I get this. Thing is, everyone who is saying that we should wait until next year to draft a QB is unintentionally hoping that the team is BAD enough to get another high pick in the first round in order get their man at that point.
And the problem with grabbing a QB in the later rounds this season, is that it's a waste of a pick. We don't have a franchise guy now and looking to the future to replace him. We have Hoyer, who at best will serve as a decent stop-gap for a year or two. We take a flyer on a guy and cross fingers that he's the future franchise player, we're going to end up in a cycle of perpetually looking for that guy.
As mik already has pointed out, not saying that at all... unintentionally or otherwise.
Crossed-fingers is your plan? Holy shit!
Crossed-fingers is your plan? Holy shit!
Nope. That's the plan I'm criticizing. A later-round QB pick is a waste of a pick.
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So basically, you don't think we have a shot of improving next season at all? Is that where others are coming from too?
Not sure where you made that connection? Are you just trying to make it for into you're argument against not picking a QB at 4?
I definitely think we could be better, we could also be a wash and break about where we did this year. There are a lot of holes that need filled.
To the point you've been making through the thread. I think taking a QB at 4 -IS- taking a flyer, not drafting Watkins/Mack. This year there are no 'sure things' at QB but there are at OT, WR, LB. Bortles. Manziel and Bridge could suck balls like Weeden did and McCarron and Garropollo could become studs like Flacco and Wilson.
I don't think drafting Watkins is taking a flyer nor is drafting Mack, drafting 1 of the 3 QBs is taking a flyer. It's a decision F&P might make but I still think it's a flyer.
I want them to draft Watkins instead of a QB because I think they could be really good next year and the immediate future. If I wanted them to draft a QB it would be because I don't think they will be much for the next year or two and they can throw those to grooming a rookie QB.
Hope that cleared things up.
Not sure where you made that connection? Are you just trying to make it for into you're argument against not picking a QB at 4?
I definitely think we could be better, we could also be a wash and break about where we did this year. There are a lot of holes that need filled.
To the point you've been making through the thread. I think taking a QB at 4 -IS- taking a flyer, not drafting Watkins/Mack. This year there are no 'sure things' at QB but there are at OT, WR, LB. Bortles. Manziel and Bridge could suck balls like Weeden did and McCarron and Garropollo could become studs like Flacco and Wilson.
I don't think drafting Watkins is taking a flyer nor is drafting Mack, drafting 1 of the 3 QBs is taking a flyer. It's a decision F&P might make but I still think it's a flyer.
I want them to draft Watkins instead of a QB because I think they could be really good next year and the immediate future. If I wanted them to draft a QB it would be because I don't think they will be much for the next year or two and they can throw those to grooming a rookie QB.
Hope that cleared things up.
And fair point. I would ask what your plan would be for getting that player at that position?
I can see this argument from both sides. I don't think there's a QB of the quality of a Manning in this draft. But I DO think that someone like Bortles COULD be an adequate starter for some time, provided the other pieces are in place. An asset, not a detriment... And could end our search for a QB for now. Not the BPA... But if the team does what I hope it does, the Browns won't be in a position to grab that guy in the future anyway, unless they're lucky with a future late-round selection.
I'm also coming from the perspective of not believing that Hoyer is that player.
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Not sure where you made that connection? Are you just trying to make it for into you're argument against not picking a QB at 4?
I definitely think we could be better, we could also be a wash and break about where we did this year. There are a lot of holes that need filled.
To the point you've been making through the thread. I think taking a QB at 4 -IS- taking a flyer, not drafting Watkins/Mack. This year there are no 'sure things' at QB but there are at OT, WR, LB. Bortles. Manziel and Bridge could suck balls like Weeden did and McCarron and Garropollo could become studs like Flacco and Wilson.
I don't think drafting Watkins is taking a flyer nor is drafting Mack, drafting 1 of the 3 QBs is taking a flyer. It's a decision F&P might make but I still think it's a flyer.
I want them to draft Watkins instead of a QB because I think they could be really good next year and the immediate future. If I wanted them to draft a QB it would be because I don't think they will be much for the next year or two and they can throw those to grooming a rookie QB.
Hope that cleared things up.
And fair point. I would ask what your plan would be for getting that player at that position?
I can see this argument from both sides. I don't think there's a QB of the quality of a Manning in this draft. But I DO think that someone like Bortles COULD be an adequate starter for some time, provided the other pieces are in place. An asset, not a detriment... And could end our search for a QB for now. Not the BPA... But if the team does what I hope it does, the Browns won't be in a position to grab that guy in the future anyway, unless they're lucky with a future late-round selection.
I'm also coming from the perspective of not believing that Hoyer is that player.
I like Bortles, I don't expect him to get past the jags though.And fair point. I would ask what your plan would be for getting that player at that position?
I can see this argument from both sides. I don't think there's a QB of the quality of a Manning in this draft. But I DO think that someone like Bortles COULD be an adequate starter for some time, provided the other pieces are in place. An asset, not a detriment... And could end our search for a QB for now. Not the BPA... But if the team does what I hope it does, the Browns won't be in a position to grab that guy in the future anyway, unless they're lucky with a future late-round selection.
I'm also coming from the perspective of not believing that Hoyer is that player.
The others though like manziel and teddy probably aren't much better than a guy like garrapolo or Murray in the 2nd. We might even go for like a tajh boyd in the 4th or 5th.
I hope Hoyer can be the guy though, I'm pulling for him anyway.
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bb... agree on Bortles and all, but remember... Avoid the Boyd!
Nope. That's the plan I'm criticizing. A later-round QB pick is a waste of a pick.
Want me to list the "wasted late picks" either in or on their way to the HOF?
There are QBs throughout the 2014 draft that have a chance to be quality starters in the NFL. Thing is if all you get with a top ten pick is a quality starter, then you have failed.
Do some work on this year's QB crop and maybe you'll quit making ridiculous statements.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
bb... agree on Bortles and all, but remember... Avoid the Boyd!
Nope. That's the plan I'm criticizing. A later-round QB pick is a waste of a pick.
Want me to list the "wasted late picks" either in or on their way to the HOF?
There are QBs throughout the 2014 draft that have a chance to be quality starters in the NFL. Thing is if all you get with a top ten pick is a quality starter, then you have failed.
Do some work on this year's QB crop and maybe you'll quit making ridiculous statements.
There are QBs throughout the 2014 draft that have a chance to be quality starters in the NFL. Thing is if all you get with a top ten pick is a quality starter, then you have failed.
I like this statement.
I actually prefer a QB not start as a rookie but, as a top 10 pick, they had better develop into an all pro type QB fairly early in their careers. The key is to have the right folks evaluating & selecting the right draftees in the right spots. I believe we have that now. I'll support THEIR choices, not ours (thank GOD! LOL).
Mike
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What separates a quality starter from an all pro qb? I'll take a quality starter from the #4 pick. If the team plays good enough, the starting qb will be an all pro. It works hand in hand. I also prefer a qb to develop that first season, but that will be up to the health of the guy in front of him.
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Mike H
Today, 01:56 PM
"None of us is as dumb as all of us. Think on it."
Truer words have never been spoken.
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It's very simple... If they like a QB, they draft him at #4. It could be any of the 4 QBs. We have so many damn picks and this is such a deep draft, why not use our pick on a QB? Sure, we'd be missing out on guys like Mack, Clowney, Watkins, and the top OTs, but we don't need #1s at any of those positions... we already have them.
So, to all you QB-haters, I already feel bad for you b/c we're using that 1st pick on a QB... We'll still be able to get a great WR2, a good ILB and RB, and probably even a CB2 somewhere else in the draft, so calm down. I just hope whichever QB they pick, he gets a chance to sit behind Hoyer until he's ready...
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@mike-h said:
None of us is as dumb as all of us. Think on it.
thought you were gone until May?
geez that was quick. little over an hour and a half.
betcha you lost every game of 'can't say a word until.........".
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This draft doesn't really have the "elite" qbs that are worth a #4 pick. What it does have aarea bunch of sleeper QBs that may be elite. While its hard to find that Russell Wilson or tom Brady, I rather take my chances later in the draft on one of these guys than waste a top pick on a qb who isn't worth the pick.
BPA! Load the draft. Pick up mccarron, mettwnberger, Murray or whoever later.
This draft doesn't really have the "elite" qbs that are worth a #4 pick. What it does have aarea bunch of sleeper QBs that may be elite. While its hard to find that Russell Wilson or tom Brady, I rather take my chances later in the draft on one of these guys than waste a top pick on a qb who isn't worth the pick.
BPA! Load the draft. Pick up mccarron, mettwnberger, Murray or whoever later.
I like that Mettwurstburger. Gotta go out and get one.
It's very simple... If they like a QB, they draft him at #4. It could be any of the 4 QBs. We have so many damn picks and this is such a deep draft, why not use our pick on a QB? Sure, we'd be missing out on guys like Mack, Clowney, Watkins, and the top OTs, but we don't need #1s at any of those positions... we already have them.
So, to all you QB-haters, I already feel bad for you b/c we're using that 1st pick on a QB... We'll still be able to get a great WR2, a good ILB and RB, and probably even a CB2 somewhere else in the draft, so calm down. I just hope whichever QB they pick, he gets a chance to sit behind Hoyer until he's ready...
So you're into wasting the #4 overall pick on potentially inferior talent just becaue you have qb fixation? How does having two #1 wideouts (Watkins) on the same team sound? Sure let's pass on another potential Brian Urlacher (Mack) for Jimmy Clausen or Joey Harrington.
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WR is a shiny hood ornament.
Jerry Rice was not the centerpiece of the offense, he completed it. The year before Jerry was drafted by SF, the leading receiver was Roger Craig.. but SF lost in the NFC title game that year. Rice opened up the offense, he was NOT the foundation of it.
You absolutely cannot draft WR high in round 1.. that has to be either QB or something else foundational.
I'm not seeing any foundational players for us --- We already have a great DL, we have an adequate crop of OLB [ and drafted Mingo in the same spot last year].
Yes we need more WR but a good-to-great QB is far more beneficial than a WR who touches the ball at most 6 times a game. Is Bortles the next Brees? Probably not, but he's good enough to take us to the AFC title game.
Cleveland's D is better than New England's even with Revis.
Cleveland's O is better than New England's.... except for one position. QB.
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
It's all a Matter if F&P feel there is a franchise QB at 4. If not ... you load up on talent, draft a mid-round rookie, sign a vet backup and move on.
Again ... not one of last year's "Final Four" got their QB by drafting him in the first round. Sometimes it can pay off when you lay off.
Grab the guy if you love him ... but please just don't make a panic pick.
Zombo
Zombo said:
It's all a Matter if F&P feel there is a franchise QB at 4. If not ... you load up on talent, draft a mid-round rookie, sign a vet backup and move on.
Again ... not one of last year's "Final Four" got their QB by drafting him in the first round. Sometimes it can pay off when you lay off.
Grab the guy if you love him ... but please just don't make a panic pick.
Zombo
This. 100% agree.
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