All Time Browns Depth Chart
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Ya- Phil Dawson over Groza or Cockroft for starters. That was then, this is now. The bar is raised- or you wonder why the kickoff distance was moved back- the goal posts were moved back, and the next step- take it to the bank- is narrowing the posts? I love Lou "the Toe", but Dawson would have beat his team record in points if he had stuck around for another year & kindly don't give me any shit about 12 game as opposed to 16 game seasons. BTW, Phil is better in every significant category.
Same reason you can question Jim Brown running over defensive ends that weren't much bigger than he was. You can argue Bo Jackson- had he not suffered a freak injury, was superior to Brown, against superior competition. Bo clocked the 2nd fastest time ever recorded at the combine- Daryl Green is still #1 @ 4.1 and change) - and had enough power to flatten the over rated Brian Bosworth in one of the all-time steamrollings.
Want to compare eras? Jim Thorpe's (at the time) 1,500 meter world record is 40 seconds slower than the current standard. I'll bet you some serious money the standing High School record is significantly faster.
I think a person should not be "graded" against people that came 50-100 years after they played.....but against the competition that played in their era.
Groza was the most dominant kicker in his era by far against all competition.....Dawson was not.
Jim Brown was the greatest dominant runner of his era...or any era. Bo Jackson was not.
Jim Thorpe dominated everyone athletically of his era.
I mean I am sure 2015 Dodge Viper could probably outperform a 1965 Mustang....but which would you rather have?
I think a person should not be "graded" against people that came 50-100 years after they played.....but against the competition that played in their era.
Groza was the most dominant kicker in his era by far against all competition.....Dawson was not.
Jim Brown was the greatest dominant runner of his era...or any era. Bo Jackson was not.
Jim Thorpe dominated everyone athletically of his era.
I mean I am sure 2015 Dodge Viper could probably outperform a 1965 Mustang....but which would you rather have?
Sorry- I disagree.
I'll take a Lamborghini instead of a model T.
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So the goal here isn't to make a team of the best browns. Just to make a team of the best browns relative to their competition at the time
So the goal here isn't to make a team of the best browns. Just to make a team of the best browns relative to their competition at the time
I am not sure that it is not one and the same.
I mean, based on size, strength, speed at their peak age John Del Greco could probably outmaneuver Gene Hickerson.....but Gene Hickerson is HOF because of his performance at the time vis a vis his competition. Do you think John Del Greco will become HOF?
The same for Mitchell Schartz vs. Mike MacCormack.
And Phil Taylor could probably outmuscle Bill Willis and Len Ford. Should Phil be considered a HOFer?
While this analysis applies to interior linemen, not so much skill players.
Do you think the Browns right now could use a 6'2" 232 pound running back with speed, power, agility?
Or a route running WR like Warfield.
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Interesting topic.....I put Joe T over Groza at tackle. You have Groza in as kicker, and I agree.....Groza was Lou the Toe.....not Lou the Blocker.....I think the Lou Groza award is about kicking. And.....anybody who picks another kicker over Groza is maybe 11 years old or a Mongoloid. Check out the address.
Also....Jim Brown was FB back in the day, so I would list him as FB and Leroy as HB.
Interesting topic.....I put Joe T over Groza at tackle. You have Groza in as kicker, and I agree.....Groza was Lou the Toe.....not Lou the Blocker.....I think the Lou Groza award is about kicking. And.....anybody who picks another kicker over Groza is maybe 11 years old or a Mongoloid. Check out the address.
Again, fair argument. (though I am not sure that Lou gets into HOF on basis of his kicking alone)
Also....Jim Brown was FB back in the day, so I would list him as FB and Leroy as HB.
I know he was designated the FB.....but he was obviously the "Running Back" when he played....that is why I designated him as such. And Leroy may have also been designated a FB as well, no? Ernie Green was the blocking back for JB....despite being designated the HB.
Plus, I put him at RB to get Motley in there.
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I think a person should not be "graded" against people that came 50-100 years after they played.....but against the competition that played in their era.
Groza was the most dominant kicker in his era by far against all competition.....Dawson was not.
Jim Brown was the greatest dominant runner of his era...or any era. Bo Jackson was not.
Jim Thorpe dominated everyone athletically of his era.
I mean I am sure 2015 Dodge Viper could probably outperform a 1965 Mustang....but which would you rather have?
Sorry- I disagree.
I'll take a Lamborghini instead of a model T.
Sorry- I disagree.
I'll take a Lamborghini instead of a model T.
Jim Brown would still be a Lamborghini is this day and age.
And for all we know, Groza may have performed as well as Dawson if they were teaching the soccer style of kicking in his day.
And did you see where Ballpeen called you an 11 year old mongoloid?
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Here is a proposed All time Browns Depth Chart taking each position with a starter and a backup from the all time Browns roster:
QB Otto Graham, backup Frank Ryan (over Sipe and Kosar)
FB Marion Motley, backup Mike Pruitt (over Mack)
RB Jim Brown, backup Leroy Kelly
WR 1 Paul Warfield, backup Mac Speedie
WR 2 Dante Lavelli, backup Gary Collins
TE Ozzie Newsome, backup Milt Morin
OT1 Lou Groza, backup Joe Thomas
OT2 Mike MacCormack, backup Dick Shafrath
OG1 Gene Hickerson, backup Robert Jackson
OG2 Joe Delamalleure, backup John Wooten
OC Frank Gatski, backup Tom DeLeone (over Baab, Mack)
DE1 Len Ford, backup Paul Wiggin
DE2 Bill Glass, backup Carl Hairston
DT1 Michael Dean Perry, backup Jerry Sherk
DT2 Walter Johnson, backup Bob Golic
OLB1 Clay Matthews, backup Chip Banks
OLB2 Jim Houston, backup Charlie Hall
MLB1 Bill Willis, backup Vince Costello
MLB2 Mike Johnson, backup Dick Ambrose
CB1 Hanford Dixon, backup Bernie Parrish
CB2 Frank Minnifield, backup Joe Haden
SS Clarence Scott, backup Ross Fichtner
FS Thom Darden, backup Eric Turner
K Lou Groza, backup Don Cockroft (over Phil Dawson)
P Gary Collins, backup Horace Gillom
KR Bobby Mitchell, backup Josh Cribbs
Any substitutions you would like to make?
Italics= HOF
I think some of the selections indicate a quantity of production with the Browns over a shorter, more quality-packed run, which is a good way to go, but If I were doing it "at the peak of his career" of guys that played, say, three years or more with the Browns, then I am starting Sherk over Johnson and Turner over Scott for sure.
And I'm not sure how Mitchell go the kick return job over Cribbs, but that is highway robbery. Mitchell is a HOF, and was a terrific receiver and running back, but Cribbs is probably the best special teams player in NFL history and holds the Browns Punt and KO return records. About 8,500 more KO return yards a Brown than Mitchell.
Zombo
Zombo said:
I think some of the selections indicate a quantity of production with the Browns over a shorter, more quality-packed run, which is a good way to go, but If I were doing it "at the peak of his career" of guys that played, say, three years or more with the Browns, then I am starting Sherk over Johnson and Turner over Scott for sure.
Cannot agree more. Prior to his unfortunate knee injury, Jerry Sherk was the most dominant DT ever to play for us. His four straight Pro-Bowl years stand as testament to that.
Of all the things that do not translate through the years, knee surgery capability has to top the list.
Again, fair argument. (though I am not sure that Lou gets into HOF on basis of his kicking alone)
I know he was designated the FB.....but he was obviously the "Running Back" when he played....that is why I designated him as such. And Leroy may have also been designated a FB as well, no? Ernie Green was the blocking back for JB....despite being designated the HB.
Plus, I put him at RB to get Motley in there.
Lou was in fact a very good OT, but I have no doubt his kicking prowess for the time was his ticket to the hall.
Kelly was always listed as HB. Ernie Green "converted" from HB to FB Kelly's first year as a starter.
Both Motley and Brown were listed as FBs. Both Motley and Brown were clearly the RB when they were on the field. It's your list, and you can do what you want, but to call one a RB so the other can also start is just a reverse engineered contrivance. Instead follow your own lead and you'll see that the best FB to play for the Browns was Ernie Green. He led the way for two HOF RBs.
Motley is fine as an alternate RB to JB and LK...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Zombo said:
I think some of the selections indicate a quantity of production with the Browns over a shorter, more quality-packed run, which is a good way to go, but If I were doing it "at the peak of his career" of guys that played, say, three years or more with the Browns, then I am starting Sherk over Johnson and Turner over Scott for sure.
Cannot agree more. Prior to his unfortunate knee injury, Jerry Sherk was the most dominant DT ever to play for us. His four straight Pro-Bowl years stand as testament to that.
Of all the things that do not translate through the years, knee surgery capability has to top the list.
Again, fair argument. (though I am not sure that Lou gets into HOF on basis of his kicking alone)
I know he was designated the FB.....but he was obviously the "Running Back" when he played....that is why I designated him as such. And Leroy may have also been designated a FB as well, no? Ernie Green was the blocking back for JB....despite being designated the HB.
Plus, I put him at RB to get Motley in there.
Lou was in fact a very good OT, but I have no doubt his kicking prowess for the time was his ticket to the hall.
Kelly was always listed as HB. Ernie Green "converted" from HB to FB Kelly's first year as a starter.
Both Motley and Brown were listed as FBs. Both Motley and Brown were clearly the RB when they were on the field. It's your list, and you can do what you want, but to call one a RB so the other can also start is just a reverse engineered contrivance. Instead follow your own lead and you'll see that the best FB to play for the Browns was Ernie Green. He led the way for two HOF RBs.
Motley is fine as an alternate RB to JB and LK...
Cannot agree more. Prior to his unfortunate knee injury, Jerry Sherk was the most dominant DT ever to play for us. His four straight Pro-Bowl years stand as testament to that.
Of all the things that do not translate through the years, knee surgery capability has to top the list.
Lou was in fact a very good OT, but I have no doubt his kicking prowess for the time was his ticket to the hall.
Kelly was always listed as HB. Ernie Green "converted" from HB to FB Kelly's first year as a starter.
Both Motley and Brown were listed as FBs. Both Motley and Brown were clearly the RB when they were on the field. It's your list, and you can do what you want, but to call one a RB so the other can also start is just a reverse engineered contrivance. Instead follow your own lead and you'll see that the best FB to play for the Browns was Ernie Green. He led the way for two HOF RBs.
Motley is fine as an alternate RB to JB and LK...
Yet, the funny thing about Green is that he had really the lighter, slimmer physique that both Brown and Kelly.
But still, if you say Green was maybe the best blocking back....that still would not make him the best Fullback no? Even if you say that JB, Kelly and Motley were the RBs....what about Mike Pruitt and Kevin Mack? I think they were "fullbacks" who were better than Green....if by better you mean a better runner....not that Green was shabby at running.
When they played they were in tandem with another "running back" that got their share of carries: Greg Pruitt, Ernest Byner.
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Here are the Browns Top Ten all time rushers:
1. Jim Brown 12312 yds
2. Leroy Kelly 7274
3. Mike Pruitt 6540
4. Greg Pruitt 5496
5. Kevin Mack 5123
6. Marion Motley 4712
7. Ernest Byner 3364
8. Ernie Green 3204
9. Jamal Lewis 2806
10. Bobby Mitchell 2297
per PFR, Mitchell was a designate Halfback/KR when he was with the Browns. When he went to the Redskins he became a "Flanker".
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Sorry- I disagree.
I'll take a Lamborghini instead of a model T.
Jim Brown would still be a Lamborghini is this day and age.
And for all we know, Groza may have performed as well as Dawson if they were teaching the soccer style of kicking in his day.
And did you see where Ballpeen called you an 11 year old mongoloid?
Jim Brown would still be a Lamborghini is this day and age.
And for all we know, Groza may have performed as well as Dawson if they were teaching the soccer style of kicking in his day.
And did you see where Ballpeen called you an 11 year old mongoloid?
Jim brown outweigh most of the linebackers he played against. If he played now he'd be another Peyton Hillis.
Auto Grahm would have a hard time beating out Branden weeden for a backup.
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Jim Brown would probably just be average if he played now. Bug, strong, fast HBs aren't an anomaly now.
Lou Groza would be a terrible kicker, and in no way better than Dawson.
If you want the very best team, your depth chart above would not be it
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
Jim Brown would still be a Lamborghini is this day and age.
And for all we know, Groza may have performed as well as Dawson if they were teaching the soccer style of kicking in his day.
And did you see where Ballpeen called you an 11 year old mongoloid?
Jim brown outweigh most of the linebackers he played against. If he played now he'd be another Peyton Hillis.
Auto Grahm would have a hard time beating out Branden weeden for a backup.
Jim brown outweigh most of the linebackers he played against. If he played now he'd be another Peyton Hillis.
Auto Grahm would have a hard time beating out Branden weeden for a backup.
Crap, Brown outweighed many defensive linemen. Aren't many 165 pound DBs currently in the NFL for him to run over either. Defenders have since learned you don't tackle a guy by jumping on his back, and trying to trip him.
JB would be faster and more agile than Hillis, but NOT faster than a healthy Bo Jackson. Oh, he'd be very, very good- but I'd bet he wouldn't be averaging 5+ ypc either. -
As much as I hate to tout a U of Texas player, there has to be room for Eric Metcalf
"Overall, Metcalf finished his career with 2,392 rushing yards, 541 receptions for 5,572 yards, 3,453 punt return yards, and 5,813 yards returning kickoffs. This gave him a total of 17,230 all-purpose yards, ranking him among the NFL's top 10 in that category at the time of his retirement. He also scored 55 touchdowns (12 rushing, 31 receiving, ten punt returns, two kickoff returns). His 12 returns for touchdowns are the third most in NFL history behind Devin Hester and Brian Mitchell. Metcalf's 10 punt return touchdowns were an NFL record, until October 2, 2011 when Devin Hester broke it against the Carolina Panthers. He is the only player ever to have 7,000+ yards on offense and 7,000+ yards on kickoff/punt returns."
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Jim Brown would still be a Lamborghini is this day and age.
And for all we know, Groza may have performed as well as Dawson if they were teaching the soccer style of kicking in his day.
And did you see where Ballpeen called you an 11 year old mongoloid?
Jim brown outweigh most of the linebackers he played against. If he played now he'd be another Peyton Hillis.
Auto Grahm would have a hard time beating out Branden weeden for a backup.
Jim brown outweigh most of the linebackers he played against. If he played now he'd be another Peyton Hillis.
Auto Grahm would have a hard time beating out Branden weeden for a backup.
You are as stupid as anyone I have ever seen on this board. I have to assume you are a Steeler fan. No fan of any other team could be as dumb as you come off.
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Jim Brown would probably just be average if he played now. Bug, strong, fast HBs aren't an anomaly now.
Lou Groza would be a terrible kicker, and in no way better than Dawson.
If you want the very best team, your depth chart above would not be it
Jim Brown would probably just be average if he played now. Bug, strong, fast HBs aren't an anomaly now.
Lou Groza would be a terrible kicker, and in no way better than Dawson.
If you want the very best team, your depth chart above would not be it
By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
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As much as I hate to tout a U of Texas player, there has to be room for Eric Metcalf
"Overall, Metcalf finished his career with 2,392 rushing yards, 541 receptions for 5,572 yards, 3,453 punt return yards, and 5,813 yards returning kickoffs. This gave him a total of 17,230 all-purpose yards, ranking him among the NFL's top 10 in that category at the time of his retirement. He also scored 55 touchdowns (12 rushing, 31 receiving, ten punt returns, two kickoff returns). His 12 returns for touchdowns are the third most in NFL history behind Devin Hester and Brian Mitchell. Metcalf's 10 punt return touchdowns were an NFL record, until October 2, 2011 when Devin Hester broke it against the Carolina Panthers. He is the only player ever to have 7,000+ yards on offense and 7,000+ yards on kickoff/punt returns."
As much as I hate to tout a U of Texas player, there has to be room for Eric Metcalf
"Overall, Metcalf finished his career with 2,392 rushing yards, 541 receptions for 5,572 yards, 3,453 punt return yards, and 5,813 yards returning kickoffs. This gave him a total of 17,230 all-purpose yards, ranking him among the NFL's top 10 in that category at the time of his retirement. He also scored 55 touchdowns (12 rushing, 31 receiving, ten punt returns, two kickoff returns). His 12 returns for touchdowns are the third most in NFL history behind Devin Hester and Brian Mitchell. Metcalf's 10 punt return touchdowns were an NFL record, until October 2, 2011 when Devin Hester broke it against the Carolina Panthers. He is the only player ever to have 7,000+ yards on offense and 7,000+ yards on kickoff/punt returns."
We love us some Eric Metcalf. But he obviously isn't going to break into the RB list......so the best I could do is to put him at backup Kick Returner. Josh Cribbs surpassed Eric's KR accomplishments. That means I would have to move Mitchell.
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OK, I made some changeups to my Depth Chart:
A. I put Jim Brown in at FB, backed up by Motley (relegating M. Pruitt)
B. I put Greg Pruitt in at backup RB behind Kelly
C. I put Bobby Mitchell at backup WR behind Warfield (relegating Speedie)
D. I put Joe Thomas in at one starting OT, backed up by Dieken (leaving Groza only at K)
E. I put Jerry Sherk in as a starter, and Walter Johnson in as backup to Michael Dean Perry
F. I put Cribbs in at starting KR, backed up by Eric Metcalf (moving Mitchell to WR)
G. I put Gillom in at starting Punter, backed up by Chris Gardocki (leaving Collins only as WR)
I did not move E-Rock in ahead of Scott, because Scott was a SS where E-Rock was a FS....and I left E-Rock behind Darden at FS.
I did not put a good current day kicker ahead of a fucking Hall of Fame player. Anyone that says I should is, in the words of ballpeen an 11 year old mongoloid.
See the original post for the changes.
Anything else?
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Clarence Scott still bothering me. He moved to safety at the end of his career. He was a good CB, then a good safety, never great.
Eric Turner was a great safety. Played first two years as a strong safety and then switched to free.
Warren Lahr is another guy worth mentioning, but i think his career was split up between CB (defensive halfback) and S too.
Overall, a pretty impressive team, a lot of Steeler killers.
Zombo
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Yes, the FS/SS thing is a dilemma. Here is Scott's line"
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/ScotCl00.htm
8 years as a corner, 4 years at SS, one at FS
Here is E-Rocks:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TurnEr00.htm
2 years at SS with Browns, 3 years at FS.
Darden definitely gets the FS nod, all but one year spent there:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DardTh00.htm
Here is Lahr's line:
ww.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LahrWa20.htm
He is listed as an "LDH" which I can't figure out....or just as a generic DB.
I agree that Lahr should probably be on the depth chart....but where?
There are other early guys that could be considered: Ken Konz, Tommy James, Cliff Lewis. 40s/50s guys.
Here are the top Ten Browns in Interceptions, not that Ints are the sole factor to consider:
1. Darden 45
2. Lahr 44
3. Scott 39
4. Tommy James 34
5. Ken Konz 30
5. Cliff Lewis 30
7. Bernie Parish 29
8. Ross Fichtner 27
9. Mike Howell 27
10. Hanford Dixon 26
10. Felix Wright 26.
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Jim Brown would probably just be average if he played now. Bug, strong, fast HBs aren't an anomaly now.
Lou Groza would be a terrible kicker, and in no way better than Dawson.
If you want the very best team, your depth chart above would not be it
By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
Ja.brill Peppers - Cleveland Brown OldBrownsFan, on 02 Jun 2017 - 5:09PM said: "No you are not the work of the devil but you are deceived by the devil." Who's got it better than us? Nooooobody! -
By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
No fucking shit Sherlock.....but they weren't better.
(and some of them weren't any of that.....Jim Brown is as big, fast, strong as any RB playing today. Paul Warfield, while not big would have fit fine today.
Marion Motley could have been as big as Jerome Bettis.
And, fyi.....if the likes of Groza, MacCormack, Willis, Ford etc were playing today....they too would be as big and as strong as today's players......they would have had the advantage of the training/nutrition that today's athletes did.
Do you think that today's athletes got that way by evolution? They got that way through applied methods....
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By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
What's wrong with making an all-time depth chart based upon how they played against their peers?
You want guys that only played the last ten years because they are the biggest and fastest? What fun is that?
I don't know how Otto Graham would do in the NFL today if you raised him from the dead, put him in a time machine, had him born in 1990, put him through modern high school and college football training and then put him on an NFL roster. Who cares? 50 years from now there will a guy bigger, stronger and a faster than Tom Brady playing QB for the Patriots and there will be a bigger, faster, stronger DL playing for the texans than JJ Watt and some punk kid will want to leave them off of their team's all-time roster.
When the NFL, NBA and MLB select their all-time teams they select Jim Brown, Bill Russell and Babe Ruth ... not Arian Foster, Dwight Howard and Ryan Braun.
Zombo
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