All Time Browns Depth Chart
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Here is Lahr's line:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LahrWa20.htm
He is listed as an "LDH" which I can't figure out....or just as a generic DB.
LDH = Left Defensive Halfback (AKA left cornerback)... either that or he was a Mormon...
Warren was a good, smart CB for many years... and very fast for his day as I recall.
EDIT: ... and the two LS notations were Left Safety.
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Zombo said:
What's wrong with making an all-time depth chart based upon how they played against their peers?
You want guys that only played the last ten years because they are the biggest and fastest? What fun is that?
I don't know how Otto Graham would do in the NFL today if you raised him from the dead, put him in a time machine, had him born in 1990, put him through modern high school and college football training and then put him on an NFL roster. Who cares? 50 years from now there will a guy bigger, stronger and a faster than Tom Brady playing QB for the Patriots and there will be a bigger, faster, stronger DL playing for the texans than JJ Watt and some punk kid will want to leave them off of their team's all-time roster.
When the NFL, NBA and MLB select their all-time teams they select Jim Brown, Bill Russell and Babe Ruth ... not Arian Foster, Dwight Howard and Ryan Braun.
Zombo
Umm.... Read my posts again.
I'm fine with it being an all time depth chart based on how they played against their peers. It was informed to be that this depth chart was supposed to just be the all time best players, regardless of the era. If that is what we're going for than this list is inaccurate.
So I'm fine with what you are saying, but I was told this isn't what this depth chart is supposed to be
Umm.... Read my posts again.
I'm fine with it being an all time depth chart based on how they played against their peers. It was informed to be that this depth chart was supposed to just be the all time best players, regardless of the era. If that is what we're going for than this list is inaccurate.
So I'm fine with what you are saying, but I was told this isn't what this depth chart is supposed to be
These are the best players.
Who was better that we left off?
Braylon Edwards? I imagine he was bigger, faster and stronger than Dante Lavelli, but he couldnt catch and ol' Gluefingers could.
Im interested to know which QBs you think were better than Graham and which RB was better than Brown.
Z
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Jim Brown would probably just be average if he played now. Bug, strong, fast HBs aren't an anomaly now.
Lou Groza would be a terrible kicker, and in no way better than Dawson.
If you want the very best team, your depth chart above would not be it
By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
Better that AP? Debatable. I get your much better than their @ the time peers- but better than current players? Um, not so fast. IIRC, Geno Marchetti was the first lineman to top 300 pounds- now it's a rarity for any lineman to weigh LESS than 300 pounds. I don't think you could find a starting OL who weighs less than that. You can debate if the oldsters had the same training tools available to current athletes, they'd be competitive- but I'd still bet the below average guys wouldn't be able to cut it in today's NFL- or any other sport. Just plain not big enough or fast enough. You want an example? Wilt Chamberlain would doubtless be a HOF center in today's NBA- still think he could post a couple 100 point games against today's level of competition? I for one say hell no.
So all we're saying is the average level of skill in today's sports world is far, far superior than it was 50 years ago. So yeah- the absolute greatest would probably be great in any era. But- I'd put heavy money on Kentucky's college team to blow out George Mikan's NBA guys.
BTW Gip- Pele was to soccer as Jim Brown was to football.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
Just let him live in his nostalgia world- you ought to know by now, even if Gip's wrong, he's still right.
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Zombo said:
What's wrong with making an all-time depth chart based upon how they played against their peers?
You want guys that only played the last ten years because they are the biggest and fastest? What fun is that?
I don't know how Otto Graham would do in the NFL today if you raised him from the dead, put him in a time machine, had him born in 1990, put him through modern high school and college football training and then put him on an NFL roster. Who cares? 50 years from now there will a guy bigger, stronger and a faster than Tom Brady playing QB for the Patriots and there will be a bigger, faster, stronger DL playing for the texans than JJ Watt and some punk kid will want to leave them off of their team's all-time roster.
When the NFL, NBA and MLB select their all-time teams they select Jim Brown, Bill Russell and Babe Ruth ... not Arian Foster, Dwight Howard and Ryan Braun.
Zombo
Umm.... Read my posts again.
I'm fine with it being an all time depth chart based on how they played against their peers. It was informed to be that this depth chart was supposed to just be the all time best players, regardless of the era. If that is what we're going for than this list is inaccurate.
So I'm fine with what you are saying, but I was told this isn't what this depth chart is supposed to be
Umm.... Read my posts again.
I'm fine with it being an all time depth chart based on how they played against their peers. It was informed to be that this depth chart was supposed to just be the all time best players, regardless of the era. If that is what we're going for than this list is inaccurate.
So I'm fine with what you are saying, but I was told this isn't what this depth chart is supposed to be
It is absolutely accurate....well in the extent that you include Hall of Fame players over current middle of the road players.
See, in you thinking Babe Ruth would be an inferior ball player to like Brandon Moss.
Timofey Mozgov would be a better center than Bill Russell.
Ryan Seymour would be a better center than Frank Gatski.
More and more idiocy keeps drooling out of your cock pocket.
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By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
Better that AP? Debatable. I get your much better than their @ the time peers- but better than current players? Um, not so fast. IIRC, Geno Marchetti was the first lineman to top 300 pounds- now it's a rarity for any lineman to weigh LESS than 300 pounds. I don't think you could find a starting OL who weighs less than that. You can debate if the oldsters had the same training tools available to current athletes, they'd be competitive- but I'd still bet the below average guys wouldn't be able to cut it in today's NFL- or any other sport. Just plain not big enough or fast enough. You want an example? Wilt Chamberlain would doubtless be a HOF center in today's NBA- still think he could post a couple 100 point games against today's level of competition? I for one say hell no.
So all we're saying is the average level of skill in today's sports world is far, far superior than it was 50 years ago. So yeah- the absolute greatest would probably be great in any era. But- I'd put heavy money on Kentucky's college team to blow out George Mikan's NBA guys.
BTW Gip- Pele was to soccer as Jim Brown was to football.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
Just let him live in his nostalgia world- you ought to know by now, even if Gip's wrong, he's still right.
Better that AP? Debatable.
Maybe....but JB would win that debate. Peterson is 6'1" 217. JB was 6'2" 232. I don't know about the speed...they didn't do 40 times in JBs days....but I hear that his speed was about the same as Peterson's 4.4.
You take AP on your team, I'll take JB.....and I will be confident as hell in the lineup of my team....at least at that position
I get your much better than their @ the time peers- but better than current players? Um, not so fast. IIRC, Geno Marchetti was the first lineman to top 300 pounds- now it's a rarity for any lineman to weigh LESS than 300 pounds. I don't think you could find a starting OL who weighs less than that. You can debate if the oldsters had the same training tools available to current athletes, they'd be competitive- but I'd still bet the below average guys wouldn't be able to cut it in today's NFL- or any other sport.
Maybe those below average guys could not cut it today.....but my lineup is filled with HOFers.....not below avg. guys.
Just plain not big enough or fast enough. You want an example? Wilt Chamberlain would doubtless be a HOF center in today's NBA- still think he could post a couple 100 point games against today's level of competition? I for one say hell no.
No NBA offense would be designed today to let that happen....but if some team let a LeBron/Kobe in his prime go at it and say "score as much as you can" someone could come close. Didn't Kobe have like 81 points in a game not too long ago?
So all we're saying is the average level of skill in today's sports world is far, far superior than it was 50 years ago. So yeah- the absolute greatest would probably be great in any era. But- I'd put heavy money on Kentucky's college team to blow out George Mikan's NBA guys.
Mikan could be compared to probably Kaminski who nearly took them out. Wisconsin is sort of a throw back team....so I don't know...it could be close.
BTW Gip- Pele was to soccer as Jim Brown was to football.
Yea, I know....and Woody would relegate Pele to being a bench player.
Just let him live in his nostalgia world- you ought to know by now, even if Gip's wrong, he's still right.
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Jim brown outweigh most of the linebackers he played against. If he played now he'd be another Peyton Hillis.
Auto Grahm would have a hard time beating out Branden weeden for a backup.
You are as stupid as anyone I have ever seen on this board. I have to assume you are a Steeler fan. No fan of any other team could be as dumb as you come off.
You are as stupid as anyone I have ever seen on this board. I have to assume you are a Steeler fan. No fan of any other team could be as dumb as you come off.
Dumb, your one of the biggest Homers on this board. Just because you have a autograph picture of Jim Brown hanging above your bed, he is the greatest RB to ever play. You post your homer opionion. Someone else post their opioion which happens to be the opposite of yours and you reply 20 times trying to talk them out of it. Go fuck yourself court clerk. You ain't changing my mind. Suck on my giant smelly balls!
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Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
What's wrong with making an all-time depth chart based upon how they played against their peers?
You want guys that only played the last ten years because they are the biggest and fastest? What fun is that?
I don't know how Otto Graham would do in the NFL today if you raised him from the dead, put him in a time machine, had him born in 1990, put him through modern high school and college football training and then put him on an NFL roster. Who cares? 50 years from now there will a guy bigger, stronger and a faster than Tom Brady playing QB for the Patriots and there will be a bigger, faster, stronger DL playing for the texans than JJ Watt and some punk kid will want to leave them off of their team's all-time roster.
When the NFL, NBA and MLB select their all-time teams they select Jim Brown, Bill Russell and Babe Ruth ... not Arian Foster, Dwight Howard and Ryan Braun.
Zombo
Zombo said:
What's wrong with making an all-time depth chart based upon how they played against their peers?
You want guys that only played the last ten years because they are the biggest and fastest? What fun is that?
I don't know how Otto Graham would do in the NFL today if you raised him from the dead, put him in a time machine, had him born in 1990, put him through modern high school and college football training and then put him on an NFL roster. Who cares? 50 years from now there will a guy bigger, stronger and a faster than Tom Brady playing QB for the Patriots and there will be a bigger, faster, stronger DL playing for the texans than JJ Watt and some punk kid will want to leave them off of their team's all-time roster.
When the NFL, NBA and MLB select their all-time teams they select Jim Brown, Bill Russell and Babe Ruth ... not Arian Foster, Dwight Howard and Ryan Braun.
Zombo
Money post Zombo!
Meatball on spaghetti, Otto Graham led the Browns into Championship Games in 1946,1947,1948,1949,1950,1951,1952,1953,1954,1955. Cleveland won 7 of those Pro Football Championships. A lot of NFL teams tried to dismiss their pro football Championship levels from 46-49 to junior achievement league. Consequently, Cleveland was warned they better bring their sling shot to take down the big boys. No better sling shot than Otto Graham in the REAL birth place of the West Coast Offense... Works every time when your QB is Ottomatic. Every time some Steel-for-brains wanted to tell me about 1 for the Thumb - I said I got your 1 for the thumb right here! We were working toward 1 for the second thumb in the 50s and 60s. We reached 8 Pro Football Championship Wins in 1964, which is why the Rooney Family needed to look to a former Paul Brown pupil - Chuck Noll in order to finally put their program on the NFL map. The SF dynasty borrowed a majority of Paul Brown's ideas all the way down to the careful selection of QB pedigree that would bridge the perfection of delivery to the idea of the offensive design.
Joe Montana and Tom Brady are often praised for what they've accomplished in NFL Championships and rightfully so. Sometimes, younger generations will question Graham's stats back when QBs weren't babied so much by rules and what secondaries could do to receivers all the way down field. Then they will say they wonder if he could make it in more modern eras. Here's the thing, pro football is old enough to the extent where trends get recycled way more often than they get invented. Bill Walsh never INVENTED all of Paul Brown's concepts. He recycled them and cleverly added some Sid Gilman wrinkles and others. That wasn't too long after the Dallas Cowboys patterned a lot of their scouting methods and criteria after Paul Brown (and others before him). If memory serves me right, it wasn't cool to consider Joe Montana's arm strength or college offensive system before round 3 or 4 (and some would even say there's nothing gotta have about the stats below). True; but the 1 team that gave him the perfect match for his skill set didn't give a rat about the rear view mirror - any more than the 34 D that drafted JJ Watt (only to see Wade Phillips change to a 4 man front 78% of the snaps in JJ's rookie year) to dwarf his previous college stats and alleged pre-draft limitations to just 1 scheme/alignment. Interestingly enough, Brady often took a back seat to the Freshman Sensation at the school up North. Now here's the Victorious Secret SF looked to emphasizing why film is every bit as important as Joe Montana's college numbers below:
Year ▴ Team GP Comp Att % Yds TD INT
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Graham in modern day football?
Not to blaspheme but....
WSS
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Here is a proposed All time Browns Depth Chart taking each position with a starter and a backup from the all time Browns roster:
QB Otto Graham, backup Frank Ryan (over Sipe and Kosar)
FB Jim Brown backup Marion Motley
RB Leroy Kelly, backup Greg Pruitt
WR 1 Paul Warfield, backup Bobby Mitchell
WR 2 Dante Lavelli, backup Gary Collins
TE Ozzie Newsome, backup Milt Morin
OT1 Joe Thomas, backup Doug Dieken
OT2 Mike MacCormack, backup Dick Shafrath
OG1 Gene Hickerson, backup Robert Jackson
OG2 Joe Delamalleure, backup John Wooten
OC Frank Gatski, backup Tom DeLeone (over Baab, Mack)
DE1 Len Ford, backup Paul Wiggin
DE2 Bill Glass, backup Carl Hairston
DT1 Michael Dean Perry, backup Walter Johnson
DT2 Jerry Sherk backup Bob Golic
OLB1 Clay Matthews, backup Chip Banks
OLB2 Jim Houston, backup Charlie Hall
MLB1 Bill Willis, backup Vince Costello
MLB2 Mike Johnson, backup Dick Ambrose
CB1 Hanford Dixon, backup Bernie Parrish
CB2 Frank Minnifield, backup Joe Haden
SS Clarence Scott, backup Ross Fichtner
FS Thom Darden, backup Eric Turner
K Lou Groza, backup Don Cockroft/Phil Dawson
P Horace Gillom, backup Chris Gardocki
KR Josh Cribbs, backup Eric Metcalf
Any substitutions you would like to make?
Italics= HOF
Here is a proposed All time Browns Depth Chart taking each position with a starter and a backup from the all time Browns roster:
QB Otto Graham, backup Frank Ryan (over Sipe and Kosar)
FB Jim Brown backup Marion Motley
RB Leroy Kelly, backup Greg Pruitt
WR 1 Paul Warfield, backup Bobby Mitchell
WR 2 Dante Lavelli, backup Gary Collins
TE Ozzie Newsome, backup Milt Morin
OT1 Joe Thomas, backup Doug Dieken
OT2 Mike MacCormack, backup Dick Shafrath
OG1 Gene Hickerson, backup Robert Jackson
OG2 Joe Delamalleure, backup John Wooten
OC Frank Gatski, backup Tom DeLeone (over Baab, Mack)
DE1 Len Ford, backup Paul Wiggin
DE2 Bill Glass, backup Carl Hairston
DT1 Michael Dean Perry, backup Walter Johnson
DT2 Jerry Sherk backup Bob Golic
OLB1 Clay Matthews, backup Chip Banks
OLB2 Jim Houston, backup Charlie Hall
MLB1 Bill Willis, backup Vince Costello
MLB2 Mike Johnson, backup Dick Ambrose
CB1 Hanford Dixon, backup Bernie Parrish
CB2 Frank Minnifield, backup Joe Haden
SS Clarence Scott, backup Ross Fichtner
FS Thom Darden, backup Eric Turner
K Lou Groza, backup Don Cockroft/Phil Dawson
P Horace Gillom, backup Chris Gardocki
KR Josh Cribbs, backup Eric Metcalf
Any substitutions you would like to make?
Italics= HOF
Thanks for putting that together Gipper! I'm sure you've had to edit here and there but great job overall man! Good to see you got Jerry Sherk starting inside. You're not going please everyone. If I could borrow the lineup for 1 game day - I'd make these changes:
1) Start Walter Johnson over MD Perry (Big difference vrs the run IMO. Johnson wrestled a bear on the Wide World of Sports. That takes grapefruits under the acorn)
2) Start Joe Haden over Frank Minnifield (Both impressive cover guys with/without great pass rushes. LOVE Haden's open field tackling)
3) Start Eric Turner over anybody. When he erased Ben Coates - it was the last playoff game this franchise won. If we're going to count Chris Gardocki for the length of time he was here - I'd say Don Rogers is at least worthy of making this list (even if it has to be as a backup).
If we could do up a practice squad of 7 - here's my blue collar heros:
1) QB Bernie Kosar (very slight edge over MVP Brian Sipe because of the playoff Ws)
2) FB Kevin Mack (knocked out Greg Loyd who needed smelling salts in order to wake up quicker than Rip Van Winkle)
3) OT Tony Jones (Undrafted and Underrated; but Unforgettable enough for Denver to add him to the other side of formation of Gary Zimmerman)
4) OT Cody Risien (7th round draft pick from Texas A&M that made at least 2 Pro Bowls here)
5) WR Brian Brennan (This Irish loddy's unparalleled toughness over the middle led our 86 team w/ 55 receptions @ 15.1 ypc & 6 TDs. No ear plugs required!)
6) DE Rob Burnett (It sucked Valley Girl-level to hand a guy like this over to the Rathouse so he could make a Pro Bowl or 2)
7) RB Ernest Byner (10th round pick from East Carolina that could block like a FB, sport great hands out of the backfield and play like a feature back/workhorse in a Joe Gibbs Superbowl Championship run. Take that inner-chest and run him down thy esophagii. He's everything we wanted Trent Richardson to be plus 2 testicles)
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Good job on the list Gipper. I tried to pick it apart but can only find issue with two things and they are both debatable.
- Clarence Scott -- Solid player but just can't get wrapped around him being number one. I would just put the two best interchangeable safeties so Turner would be my starter at SS.
- Mike Pruitt being left off. I know Motley is a legend and HOFer, but Mike was bad.
Is a pig's ass pork? -
By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
Better that AP? Debatable. I get your much better than their @ the time peers- but better than current players? Um, not so fast. IIRC, Geno Marchetti was the first lineman to top 300 pounds- now it's a rarity for any lineman to weigh LESS than 300 pounds. I don't think you could find a starting OL who weighs less than that. You can debate if the oldsters had the same training tools available to current athletes, they'd be competitive- but I'd still bet the below average guys wouldn't be able to cut it in today's NFL- or any other sport. Just plain not big enough or fast enough. You want an example? Wilt Chamberlain would doubtless be a HOF center in today's NBA- still think he could post a couple 100 point games against today's level of competition? I for one say hell no.
So all we're saying is the average level of skill in today's sports world is far, far superior than it was 50 years ago. So yeah- the absolute greatest would probably be great in any era. But- I'd put heavy money on Kentucky's college team to blow out George Mikan's NBA guys.
BTW Gip- Pele was to soccer as Jim Brown was to football.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
Just let him live in his nostalgia world- you ought to know by now, even if Gip's wrong, he's still right.
Wilt Chamberlain would doubtless be a HOF center in today's NBA- still think he could post a couple 100 point games against today's level of competition? I for one say hell no.
HE OBVIOUSLY WOULDNT SCORE 100 AND IT ISNT FUCKING CAUSE HE ISNT AS GOOD AS TYSON CHANDLER ITS CAUSE WHEN HE FUCKING SCORED 100 YOU COULD STAND IN THE PAINT AS LONG AS YOU WANTED WITH NO 3 SECONDS I CANT FUCKING BELIEVE YOU BROUGHT UP THIS HORSE SHIT WOULD JIM FUCKING BROWN RUN A MUCK IN THE NFL TODAY HELL FUCKING YEAH HE WOULD CAUSE HE IS MOTHER FUCKING JIM BROWN THE GREATEST FUCKING RUNNING BACK OF ALL FUCKING TIME. FUCK YEAH. GO BROWNS. BO JACKSON SHOULDNT HAVE PLAYED PUSSY SHIT BASEBALL.
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Otto would be as good as Russell Wilson or Andrew Luck in today's leauge, Otto was smart he didn't make many mistakes and when he did he didn't do them again. That's why the "Father of Modern Football" Paul Brown wanted him.
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By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
So what you are saying is Jammal Lewis is better then Jim Brown? Jammal Lewis? Jammal had 58 TD's on 2,542 attempts Jimmy on the other hand 106 TD's on 2,359 attempts. These numbers spellit out for you.
"BUT WAIT JAMMAL PLAYED AGAINST BETTER COMPITION"
But wait Jim Brown would beat the living shit out of Jammal today and in their prime
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Zombo said:
What's wrong with making an all-time depth chart based upon how they played against their peers?
You want guys that only played the last ten years because they are the biggest and fastest? What fun is that?
I don't know how Otto Graham would do in the NFL today if you raised him from the dead, put him in a time machine, had him born in 1990, put him through modern high school and college football training and then put him on an NFL roster. Who cares? 50 years from now there will a guy bigger, stronger and a faster than Tom Brady playing QB for the Patriots and there will be a bigger, faster, stronger DL playing for the texans than JJ Watt and some punk kid will want to leave them off of their team's all-time roster.
When the NFL, NBA and MLB select their all-time teams they select Jim Brown, Bill Russell and Babe Ruth ... not Arian Foster, Dwight Howard and Ryan Braun.
Zombo
Money post Zombo!
Meatball on spaghetti, Otto Graham led the Browns into Championship Games in 1946,1947,1948,1949,1950,1951,1952,1953,1954,1955. Cleveland won 7 of those Pro Football Championships. A lot of NFL teams tried to dismiss their pro football Championship levels from 46-49 to junior achievement league. Consequently, Cleveland was warned they better bring their sling shot to take down the big boys. No better sling shot than Otto Graham in the REAL birth place of the West Coast Offense... Works every time when your QB is Ottomatic. Every time some Steel-for-brains wanted to tell me about 1 for the Thumb - I said I got your 1 for the thumb right here! We were working toward 1 for the second thumb in the 50s and 60s. We reached 8 Pro Football Championship Wins in 1964, which is why the Rooney Family needed to look to a former Paul Brown pupil - Chuck Noll in order to finally put their program on the NFL map. The SF dynasty borrowed a majority of Paul Brown's ideas all the way down to the careful selection of QB pedigree that would bridge the perfection of delivery to the idea of the offensive design.
Joe Montana and Tom Brady are often praised for what they've accomplished in NFL Championships and rightfully so. Sometimes, younger generations will question Graham's stats back when QBs weren't babied so much by rules and what secondaries could do to receivers all the way down field. Then they will say they wonder if he could make it in more modern eras. Here's the thing, pro football is old enough to the extent where trends get recycled way more often than they get invented. Bill Walsh never INVENTED all of Paul Brown's concepts. He recycled them and cleverly added some Sid Gilman wrinkles and others. That wasn't too long after the Dallas Cowboys patterned a lot of their scouting methods and criteria after Paul Brown (and others before him). If memory serves me right, it wasn't cool to consider Joe Montana's arm strength or college offensive system before round 3 or 4 (and some would even say there's nothing gotta have about the stats below). True; but the 1 team that gave him the perfect match for his skill set didn't give a rat about the rear view mirror - any more than the 34 D that drafted JJ Watt (only to see Wade Phillips change to a 4 man front 78% of the snaps in JJ's rookie year) to dwarf his previous college stats and alleged pre-draft limitations to just 1 scheme/alignment. Interestingly enough, Brady often took a back seat to the Freshman Sensation at the school up North. Now here's the Victorious Secret SF looked to emphasizing why film is every bit as important as Joe Montana's college numbers below:
Year ▴ Team GP Comp Att % Yds TD INT
Money post Zombo!
Meatball on spaghetti, Otto Graham led the Browns into Championship Games in 1946,1947,1948,1949,1950,1951,1952,1953,1954,1955. Cleveland won 7 of those Pro Football Championships. A lot of NFL teams tried to dismiss their pro football Championship levels from 46-49 to junior achievement league. Consequently, Cleveland was warned they better bring their sling shot to take down the big boys. No better sling shot than Otto Graham in the REAL birth place of the West Coast Offense... Works every time when your QB is Ottomatic. Every time some Steel-for-brains wanted to tell me about 1 for the Thumb - I said I got your 1 for the thumb right here! We were working toward 1 for the second thumb in the 50s and 60s. We reached 8 Pro Football Championship Wins in 1964, which is why the Rooney Family needed to look to a former Paul Brown pupil - Chuck Noll in order to finally put their program on the NFL map. The SF dynasty borrowed a majority of Paul Brown's ideas all the way down to the careful selection of QB pedigree that would bridge the perfection of delivery to the idea of the offensive design.
Joe Montana and Tom Brady are often praised for what they've accomplished in NFL Championships and rightfully so. Sometimes, younger generations will question Graham's stats back when QBs weren't babied so much by rules and what secondaries could do to receivers all the way down field. Then they will say they wonder if he could make it in more modern eras. Here's the thing, pro football is old enough to the extent where trends get recycled way more often than they get invented. Bill Walsh never INVENTED all of Paul Brown's concepts. He recycled them and cleverly added some Sid Gilman wrinkles and others. That wasn't too long after the Dallas Cowboys patterned a lot of their scouting methods and criteria after Paul Brown (and others before him). If memory serves me right, it wasn't cool to consider Joe Montana's arm strength or college offensive system before round 3 or 4 (and some would even say there's nothing gotta have about the stats below). True; but the 1 team that gave him the perfect match for his skill set didn't give a rat about the rear view mirror - any more than the 34 D that drafted JJ Watt (only to see Wade Phillips change to a 4 man front 78% of the snaps in JJ's rookie year) to dwarf his previous college stats and alleged pre-draft limitations to just 1 scheme/alignment. Interestingly enough, Brady often took a back seat to the Freshman Sensation at the school up North. Now here's the Victorious Secret SF looked to emphasizing why film is every bit as important as Joe Montana's college numbers below:
Year ▴ Team GP Comp Att % Yds TD INT
I feel bad I left this out regarding Otto - here's part of an article explaining there was at least one 2 sport professional in existence long before Dion Sanders, Bo Jackson and Brian Jordan were even wetting their first diapers: Otto was recruited to play pro-basketball with the Rochester Royals. Along with teammates Red Holtzman, Chuck "Rifleman" Connors, Al Cervi, Del Rice and Tom Rich, etal., the Royals won the 1946 NBL Championship a year before the NBL reformed into the NBA.
Every pro team Otto joined had a knack for winning a championship. I think he only played professional basketball for 2-3 years. Rumor has it, those that have seen him golf down in Sarasota, FL in life after football swear he could have been a pro golfer if he chose that route back in the day.
I keep hearing this crap Otto couldn't have played QB in today's game that babies/favors the passing game so more points can be scored. Having said that, I saw an AFC Championship Game where NE's secondary (Ty Law in particular) was allowed to mug Indy's WRs all over the field without any penalties for doing so. Oh yeah, and it was OUTDOORS. In any event, NE won that game 23-3 while Dungy and Peyton would protest to the top of the league about the unbearable QB conditions. Those QB conditions were the exact same ones Otto Graham played under when he led us to 10 consecutive Pro Football Championship Games (winning 70% of those). No panic attacks or crying necessary! Next time anyone tells you Graham couldn't play in today's game - you tell them "I got your today's game right here!"
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By your way of thinking....below average players league wide in today's game should be put on an All time Greats team over Hall of Fame players that played in the past.
Is that how you roll?
Then I can only assume that you think that Pele would be a bench warmer at best at soccer.....since you are such a soccer fag.
Jim Brown would be better right here right now than either Adrian Peterson or DeMarcus Murray.
Better that AP? Debatable. I get your much better than their @ the time peers- but better than current players? Um, not so fast. IIRC, Geno Marchetti was the first lineman to top 300 pounds- now it's a rarity for any lineman to weigh LESS than 300 pounds. I don't think you could find a starting OL who weighs less than that. You can debate if the oldsters had the same training tools available to current athletes, they'd be competitive- but I'd still bet the below average guys wouldn't be able to cut it in today's NFL- or any other sport. Just plain not big enough or fast enough. You want an example? Wilt Chamberlain would doubtless be a HOF center in today's NBA- still think he could post a couple 100 point games against today's level of competition? I for one say hell no.
So all we're saying is the average level of skill in today's sports world is far, far superior than it was 50 years ago. So yeah- the absolute greatest would probably be great in any era. But- I'd put heavy money on Kentucky's college team to blow out George Mikan's NBA guys.
BTW Gip- Pele was to soccer as Jim Brown was to football.
Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger. I'm sorry if that shatters your nostalgia.
Just let him live in his nostalgia world- you ought to know by now, even if Gip's wrong, he's still right.
Better that AP? Debatable. I get your much better than their @ the time peers- but better than current players? Um, not so fast. IIRC, Geno Marchetti was the first lineman to top 300 pounds- now it's a rarity for any lineman to weigh LESS than 300 pounds. I don't think you could find a starting OL who weighs less than that. You can debate if the oldsters had the same training tools available to current athletes, they'd be competitive- but I'd still bet the below average guys wouldn't be able to cut it in today's NFL- or any other sport. Just plain not big enough or fast enough. You want an example? Wilt Chamberlain would doubtless be a HOF center in today's NBA- still think he could post a couple 100 point games against today's level of competition? I for one say hell no.
So all we're saying is the average level of skill in today's sports world is far, far superior than it was 50 years ago. So yeah- the absolute greatest would probably be great in any era. But- I'd put heavy money on Kentucky's college team to blow out George Mikan's NBA guys.
BTW Gip- Pele was to soccer as Jim Brown was to football.
Just let him live in his nostalgia world- you ought to know by now, even if Gip's wrong, he's still right.
Players now train and condition all year long. Back in the day they would show up for double session practice out of shape. Never see that happen now, or rarely.
"You planning on having a long relationship with that glass or are you going to drink it? Drink up, man. Maybe we can get another.” - Janis Joplin, 1970. -
Better that AP? Debatable. I get your much better than their @ the time peers- but better than current players? Um, not so fast. IIRC, Geno Marchetti was the first lineman to top 300 pounds- now it's a rarity for any lineman to weigh LESS than 300 pounds. I don't think you could find a starting OL who weighs less than that. You can debate if the oldsters had the same training tools available to current athletes, they'd be competitive- but I'd still bet the below average guys wouldn't be able to cut it in today's NFL- or any other sport. Just plain not big enough or fast enough. You want an example? Wilt Chamberlain would doubtless be a HOF center in today's NBA- still think he could post a couple 100 point games against today's level of competition? I for one say hell no.
So all we're saying is the average level of skill in today's sports world is far, far superior than it was 50 years ago. So yeah- the absolute greatest would probably be great in any era. But- I'd put heavy money on Kentucky's college team to blow out George Mikan's NBA guys.
BTW Gip- Pele was to soccer as Jim Brown was to football.
Just let him live in his nostalgia world- you ought to know by now, even if Gip's wrong, he's still right.
Players now train and condition all year long. Back in the day they would show up for double session practice out of shape. Never see that happen now, or rarely.
First, Marchetti never played at 300#... Of the old Colts, Lipscomb might have played at 300, but not Gino. Before the 80's 300#-ers were a novelty not a standard.
Players now train and condition all year long. Back in the day they would show up for double session practice out of shape. Never see that happen now, or rarely.
Back in the day they often played "out of shape"... and had a smoke at halftime.
We've been down this road before with the battle of the great teams posted every other year or so. There are just two distinct schools of thought when it comes to old heroes crossing the years.
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Better that AP? Debatable. I get your much better than their @ the time peers- but better than current players? Um, not so fast. IIRC, Geno Marchetti was the first lineman to top 300 pounds- now it's a rarity for any lineman to weigh LESS than 300 pounds. I don't think you could find a starting OL who weighs less than that. You can debate if the oldsters had the same training tools available to current athletes, they'd be competitive- but I'd still bet the below average guys wouldn't be able to cut it in today's NFL- or any other sport. Just plain not big enough or fast enough. You want an example? Wilt Chamberlain would doubtless be a HOF center in today's NBA- still think he could post a couple 100 point games against today's level of competition? I for one say hell no.
So all we're saying is the average level of skill in today's sports world is far, far superior than it was 50 years ago. So yeah- the absolute greatest would probably be great in any era. But- I'd put heavy money on Kentucky's college team to blow out George Mikan's NBA guys.
BTW Gip- Pele was to soccer as Jim Brown was to football.
Just let him live in his nostalgia world- you ought to know by now, even if Gip's wrong, he's still right.
Players now train and condition all year long. Back in the day they would show up for double session practice out of shape. Never see that happen now, or rarely.
Players now train and condition all year long. Back in the day they would show up for double session practice out of shape. Never see that happen now, or rarely.
Good point DieHard. Here's the thing though - Jim Brown never missed a game. The rest of this doesn't matter and you may not want to read it if you don't like long posts or the world according to this goofy blowhard.
In 1997 and 1998, I volunteered 2 mornings per week in the Tampa Bay Buccaneers strength and conditioning program on top of the 50 hours per week I was managing a Corporate Fitness Program for Xerox. My entire staff worked for Mark Asanovich, who was the first Assistant Coach Tony Dungy hired. Anyway, Mark's philosophy was to reduce any unnecessary wear and tear on the athletes he was empowered to condition and keep fit/healthy. The strength and conditioning programs across the league had 2 different philosophies butting heads at the time. One felt ballistic movements that mimicked various football movements would carry over to the field while the other had a thesis that was complete fiction. That being that case, anyone who volunteered to assist Mark had to attend his offseason clinic usually held on a Saturday Morning. When I lived in Florida I attended countless strength and conditioning clinics because the CEUs I needed in order to maintain my status as a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist. Anyway, Mark's Strength & Conditioning clinc began with a series of gruesome snaps shots of brutal weightlifting injuries.
So what followed in a room full of Physical Therapists, Sports Med staffs and strength training professionals? Mark asked what all those pictures had in common. People answered brutal injuries, suspect techniques and before long - the answers stopped. Mark still didn't have what he wanted; and your buddy Flugel is trying not to puke while see a humerus broken in 2. Guess who freakin gets called on? I thought my answer was gonna suck; BUT I see names of countries on uniforms. BINGO! Mark said, many of these are Olympians which tells you what about these athletes? They're competing to be crowned the best in the world. Is it safe to say, they have some of the best techniques with the most practice behind them? In chorus, everyone gave him the "yes" he wanted to hear. So if this type of athlete can get injured despite the superior techniques and the most practice - what do you think happens when high schools, colleges and even pro teams are attempting to do this less expertise than the Olympian pictured with compound fractures? Then he said, can you imagine how long I'd keep my gig here if Paul Gruber, Warren Sapp or Mike Alstott couldn't play football because they got hurt trying to perform ballistic movements. Someone else said in the land of where's smoke there's usually fire that Charles Haley's back disc injury began in the weight room in a program. How would you like to be the ka-nuckle tied to that - if true? I already have enough things associating me with ka-nuckle heads so no thanks!
Then he had PhD Kenny Mannie, who headed up the Strength and Conditioning Program at Michigan State at the time, cover his philosophy on how much hang cleans/power cleans and other Olympic lifts carry over. Compelling stuff but he was hilarious with the delivery. Anyway, long story short - I learned things in the short span of time I never learned in college. All that said, the opposite train of thought throughout the league could probably put together their versions of supporting some ballistic movements. Both sides of that debate, tend to use plyometrics at varying degrees. These are actions aimed at improving explosion and recruitment of type II fibers. Any of our former football players remember their conditioning stations where all kinds of jumps and drills were aimed at this as well as footwork, reaction times, muscular endurance, etc.
One of the things Mark always stressed was the importance of rest and recuperation in season and off season. As of April 1st, they only wanted guys coming 3 days per week which would continue all the way until football season ended. It was supposed to voluntary; but guys got paid (outside of their contract) specified amounts for completing the workout. He also stressed the importance of guys taking some time off especially if they made the playoffs and went well into January. He made us all keenly aware of why rookies hit the wall earlier than others. Because they never get any time off after their last college season ends throughout the workouts going up until the draft. Then they go to mini-camps and offseason strength and conditioning programs already in progress.
At the time, I began to think about wear and tear showing up in the form of bigger volumes of injuries. Some people will say old school guys were just tougher than today's guys. That may be true to some extent; BUT I gotta believe the increased # of games and length of time dedicated to training impacts rest and recuperation periods up against the wear and tear process of a 16 game schedule. For example, I don't know if turf toe was a problem back when Jimmy Brown could show up for an entire season without worry if he'd miss a game for some of the types of nagging injuries today's wear and tear perpetuates. Meanwhile efforts to promote more scoring through passing games is putting a lot of today's bigger, stronger and faster athletes in open spaces more frequently than ever before. Inevitably the laws of physics, not to be confused with laws of NFL Commissioners, tell us the frequency of violent collisions in space can only increase the more NFL legislation favors the passing games. That can't help all these alleged concerns about concussions.
My excitement levels of football in Cleveland reached some of their finest moments when Greg Pruitt would turn a plan for a 4 yard gain into a 65 yard TD run. It had everything from unparalleled compact power to the thrill of seeing breakaway game speed hitting the acceleration gear. Goosebump-level! It sure beat the ever the living shit out of redundantly hearing about arm strength from one more version of deaf, dumb and blind in the pocket. Who cares how FREAKIN strong Brandon Weeden's arm was? His theme song, at least to our opponents was "Here Comes Santa Claus!" In the pocket, that guy had the instincts of a possum crossing the road at night. That did us so much good we drafted another first round QB with a shelf life of 7 quarters that might get us bullied right back into reaching on 1 more QB. As much as people HATED Colt McCoy, at least he was drafted in the 3rd round where the only QB alternatives of his class drafted ahead of him were Glassbones Bradford, Tim Tebow and Jimmie Clausen. He was the least of all evils in that draft class; and was most recently seen outplaying RG3 in DC. Supply and demand tells me we might want to further investigate why/how Conner Shaw could sport a TD/INT ratio of 24:1 in the SEC. Keep in mind, that was in a style of offense where Steve Spurrier has been known to hang QBs out to dry in some very unsound pass protections. The numbers despite that, especially as he gained experience and familiarity in the offense, show me someone that can process and think quickly on his feet. The 4.64 forty speed doesn't hurt either if necessary. Sometimes divine intervention is telling us the supply and demand says this is a year to make it easier to play QB rather than pretending we can invent the right QB in a round he doesn't belong in. Right now, that's my biggest worry heading into this draft.
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You are as stupid as anyone I have ever seen on this board. I have to assume you are a Steeler fan. No fan of any other team could be as dumb as you come off.
Dumb, your one of the biggest Homers on this board. Just because you have a autograph picture of Jim Brown hanging above your bed, he is the greatest RB to ever play. You post your homer opionion. Someone else post their opioion which happens to be the opposite of yours and you reply 20 times trying to talk them out of it. Go fuck yourself court clerk. You ain't changing my mind. Suck on my giant smelly balls!
Dumb, your one of the biggest Homers on this board. Just because you have a autograph picture of Jim Brown hanging above your bed, he is the greatest RB to ever play. You post your homer opionion. Someone else post their opioion which happens to be the opposite of yours and you reply 20 times trying to talk them out of it. Go fuck yourself court clerk. You ain't changing my mind. Suck on my giant smelly balls!
You don't own a pair....how can I or anyone suck them?
Nevertheless.....still no one has said anything as purely stupid as you have.
Your statement is tantamount to me saying that as a QB Terry Bradshaw could not hold Johnny Manziel's jockstrap.
(you agree that would be an absolutely stupid statement....do you not?....yet that is the equivalent of what you said).
We could just take a vote and ask others if your statements that Otto Graham or Jim Brown could not play today is or is not one of the dumbest ever made on these board.
Vote:
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Good job on the list Gipper. I tried to pick it apart but can only find issue with two things and they are both debatable.
- Clarence Scott -- Solid player but just can't get wrapped around him being number one. I would just put the two best interchangeable safeties so Turner would be my starter at SS.
- Mike Pruitt being left off. I know Motley is a legend and HOFer, but Mike was bad.
Good job on the list Gipper. I tried to pick it apart but can only find issue with two things and they are both debatable.
- Clarence Scott -- Solid player but just can't get wrapped around him being number one. I would just put the two best interchangeable safeties so Turner would be my starter at SS.
- Mike Pruitt being left off. I know Motley is a legend and HOFer, but Mike was bad.
Well, I addressed the SS/FS dilemma....because, like I said.....Turner didn't start at SS much....he was at FS more.
And I had M. Pruitt at backup FB behind Motley.....but I succumbed to the argument that JB was a fullback....so I had to move JB to FB backed up by Motley....leaving Pruitt out.
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