Justin Gilbert thoughts.....
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Don't understand why his attitude was so fucked up last year. Guy gets drafted number one and then doesn't perform? .
Part of the point is that he did perform pretty well in a number of games, as the season wore on. Does need to grow up though....like so many rookies do.....along with West and Manziel.....
I agree with most of your points, although I don't think Gilbert will turn out to be better than Haden anytime soon.
But there's no way you can say Dennard was bad with such a small sample size. Cincinnati just doesn't put defensive backs on the field early on in their careers. Just look at how long it took Lewis to trust Kirkpatrick enough, as a soon as he did the guy won them the game against the Broncos with two picks.
Yeah...the Haden thing was my "crazy" prediction.....so thats all it is.......but Gilbert def has the physical tools to do it....
On the Dennard thing...and at the rsik of this becoming about the Bengals(and not Gilbert)......I cant say he was "bad", because he didnt play.....but Ill speculate if he played well, he would have made it on the field.....you said the Bengals dont play rookie CBs(so I looked, of course).......and they have 4 that they've picked in the first round in recent years....lets have a look, shall we?...
Dennard.........1st rd 2014........70 plays
Kirkpatrick......1st rd 2012........43/363/280......(plus, gotta wonder WHY pick Dennard, when you just tapped Kirkpatrick??)
Hall.................1st rd 2007........870/1050/1050......3000 plays 3yrs vs 700 for Kirkpatrick....
Joseph...........1st rd 2006........904/840/982...........2800 plays 3yrs.....
So....what I see is 2 first rounders who stepped in, played lots of snaps and started immediately....then I see Kirkpatrick who didnt. And, after 3 years, I see him getting even less snaps than the year before(and not ever being a starter)....and now his team has gone and picked another CB in the first round....so, Im not seeing anything but signs that he's not a quality starting CB and I AM seeing the Bengals starting rookies(who played well)....and if he was good, he'd be playing and his team wouldn't be spending more 1st round picks on CB's like Dennard.......call me crazy.....
So, Dennard cant get more than 70 snaps with a team that has a very very average defensive backfield......Yet Gilbert goes almost 400 snaps on the best pass defense in the league....
Even Desir had more snaps than Dennard.....and he was our 5th CB and didnt even play until week 15
i give manziel a lot of grief BUT that media thing last year couldn't made the biggest man go crying off into a corner.
both need to man-up at this point.
fuck 'em, they don't play for the browns.
Yep....they both need to man up(west too).....not uncommon for rookies......I think they will and, at least with Gilbert, the rest of the tools are there for him to succeed in spades.......
Part of the point is that he did perform pretty well in a number of games, as the season wore on. Does need to grow up though....like so many rookies do.....along with West and Manziel.....
Yeah...the Haden thing was my "crazy" prediction.....so thats all it is.......but Gilbert def has the physical tools to do it....
On the Dennard thing...and at the rsik of this becoming about the Bengals(and not Gilbert)......I cant say he was "bad", because he didnt play.....but Ill speculate if he played well, he would have made it on the field.....you said the Bengals dont play rookie CBs(so I looked, of course).......and they have 4 that they've picked in the first round in recent years....lets have a look, shall we?...
Dennard.........1st rd 2014........70 plays
Kirkpatrick......1st rd 2012........43/363/280......(plus, gotta wonder WHY pick Dennard, when you just tapped Kirkpatrick??)
Hall.................1st rd 2007........870/1050/1050......3000 plays 3yrs vs 700 for Kirkpatrick....
Joseph...........1st rd 2006........904/840/982...........2800 plays 3yrs.....
So....what I see is 2 first rounders who stepped in, played lots of snaps and started immediately....then I see Kirkpatrick who didnt. And, after 3 years, I see him getting even less snaps than the year before(and not ever being a starter)....and now his team has gone and picked another CB in the first round....so, Im not seeing anything but signs that he's not a quality starting CB and I AM seeing the Bengals starting rookies(who played well)....and if he was good, he'd be playing and his team wouldn't be spending more 1st round picks on CB's like Dennard.......call me crazy.....
So, Dennard cant get more than 70 snaps with a team that has a very very average defensive backfield......Yet Gilbert goes almost 400 snaps on the best pass defense in the league....
Even Desir had more snaps than Dennard.....and he was our 5th CB and didnt even play until week 15
I think the issue with both Kirkpatrick and Dennard is that the Bengals are competing for a playoff spot yearly these days. My assumption is that with Hall, Jones and Newman they decided to opt for experience rather than the potential of young CBs, who tend to have growing pains in their first few years in the league. I'm not sure what they DB situation was like back in 06/07, but I'd assume they didn't have serviceable veterans. If I'm not mistaken Kirkpatrick only started playing more snaps after Newman repeatedly gave up some big plays, at which point keeping a player with greater upside on the bench no longer made sense.
Even though I think it's a coaching decision, I don't see how Dennard (or Kirkpatrick for that mater) will turn out to be a better player than Gilbert. There's a reason why Gilbert was a top 10 pick after all! He's got everything you want in a #1 CB as well as a great mentor in Haden.
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So, watched Gilbert some more last night and focused on his 1st start which was against Brees & NO....he played a great game and was 100% shut down in the first half.....not one completion. The really interesting part was that Haden ended up having a really bad game.....and when I looked at games 1 & 3(2 others that Gilbert got a lot of playing time) I see Haden struggling again......Gotta say he was getting targeted pretty hard and, I think, it was because Gilberts side was unavailable(closed for business).....anyhoo.....looked back at the comments on this board from week 3 and guess what I found??.....threads screaming about how bad "Haden" sucks.....hahaha.....saying cut the bum......hahaha......(in WEEK 3....Oh my).....
So....could it be that Haden gets more balls when Gilbert is in, lowering his performance....and conversely.....Haden gets less balls when Skrine is in, cause Skrines side is open?......so, in the end, if he develops into a great CB, will Gilberts play expose Haden to more passes and maybe lower his ratings some?........interesting prospect.....
So, anyway.......anyone who really wants to "see" Gilbert play and understand how talented he really is needs only to watch the NO's game.....or the Oakland game.....or the first Cinn game......or the Colts game.....What else is interesting is that the games he got a lot of snaps are also the games he played best.....and are also all wins, except Indy, which was still one of our finer defensive games...
Mud - what was Desir's PFF score?
Desir(+1) is really hard to score(or rate) cause he basically only played 2 games.....and one of them was at Safety...his score for those 2 were +0.5 and +0.3, which are just above average(with 0 being average).....
So, while he did nothing spectacular in those 2 games.....he also made no big mistakes and showed his versatility by playing 2 completely different positions....
He's got everything you want in a #1 CB
Exactly...which I guess is my overall point with this thread.....that this guy is uber talented and that supreme talent is just too good to keep on the bench too much longer.....
And anyone who says he's a bust hasn't REALLY watched him play......
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So, watched Gilbert some more last night and focused on his 1st start which was against Brees & NO....he played a great game and was 100% shut down in the first half.....not one completion. The really interesting part was that Haden ended up having a really bad game.....and when I looked at games 1 & 3(2 others that Gilbert got a lot of playing time) I see Haden struggling again......Gotta say he was getting targeted pretty hard and, I think, it was because Gilberts side was unavailable(closed for business).....anyhoo.....looked back at the comments on this board from week 3 and guess what I found??.....threads screaming about how bad "Haden" sucks.....hahaha.....saying cut the bum......hahaha......(in WEEK 3....Oh my).....
So....could it be that Haden gets more balls when Gilbert is in, lowering his performance....and conversely.....Haden gets less balls when Skrine is in, cause Skrines side is open?......so, in the end, if he develops into a great CB, will Gilberts play expose Haden to more passes and maybe lower his ratings some?........interesting prospect.....
So, anyway.......anyone who really wants to "see" Gilbert play and understand how talented he really is needs only to watch the NO's game.....or the Oakland game.....or the first Cinn game......or the Colts game.....What else is interesting is that the games he got a lot of snaps are also the games he played best.....and are also all wins, except Indy, which was still one of our finer defensive games...
Mud - what was Desir's PFF score?
Desir(+1) is really hard to score(or rate) cause he basically only played 2 games.....and one of them was at Safety...his score for those 2 were +0.5 and +0.3, which are just above average(with 0 being average).....
So, while he did nothing spectacular in those 2 games.....he also made no big mistakes and showed his versatility by playing 2 completely different positions....
He's got everything you want in a #1 CB
Exactly...which I guess is my overall point with this thread.....that this guy is uber talented and that supreme talent is just too good to keep on the bench too much longer.....
And anyone who says he's a bust hasn't REALLY watched him play......
Desir(+1) is really hard to score(or rate) cause he basically only played 2 games.....and one of them was at Safety...his score for those 2 were +0.5 and +0.3, which are just above average(with 0 being average).....
So, while he did nothing spectacular in those 2 games.....he also made no big mistakes and showed his versatility by playing 2 completely different positions.....
I'll take an 'average' from our #5 CB...
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When Hall and Joesph were drafted the bengals were bad and had no depth at CB. The Bengals didn't play Dennard because they didn't have to, so he was a luxury pick. Newman, Hall, and Jones were veterans who had the experience on a team who was a contender, they weren't going to break that up. He should get a shot this year to play and we will see how good he really is.
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as someone else stated above, let's not turn this into a bengals thread.
F them.
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As Gilbert comes along I see Desir doing more safety work because he does not have that burning turn and run speed needed for great corners. Or maybe more as the nichelback on sure passing downs. Either way a guy with "Browns" mentality and great character through handling life's adversities that is essential to a tough D. I think of him more as part of the glue that every team needs in the locker room somewhat like the more talented Joe Haden. This guy helps the team in any way they need from him even if it's just to pull the best out of more talented folks around him by example.
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desir is built like a safety. those shoulders are crazy.
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As Gilbert comes along I see Desir doing more safety work because he does not have that burning turn and run speed needed for great corners. Or maybe more as the nichelback on sure passing downs. Either way a guy with "Browns" mentality and great character through handling life's adversities that is essential to a tough D. I think of him more as part of the glue that every team needs in the locker room somewhat like the more talented Joe Haden. This guy helps the team in any way they need from him even if it's just to pull the best out of more talented folks around him by example.
As Gilbert comes along I see Desir doing more safety work
desir is built like a safety. those shoulders are crazy.
Yep.....I think thats where well see him in the end....FS......and he could be part of the reason the Browns didnt jump to make Gipson rich this year......
with Gipsons knee injury AND the prospect that Desir will gain playing time, Im thinking they'll take another year(or 2) to evaluate Gipson and see which one rises to the top.....
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Desir(+1) is really hard to score(or rate) cause he basically only played 2 games.....and one of them was at Safety...his score for those 2 were +0.5 and +0.3, which are just above average(with 0 being average).....
So, while he did nothing spectacular in those 2 games.....he also made no big mistakes and showed his versatility by playing 2 completely different positions.....
I'll take an 'average' from our #5 CB...
I'll take an 'average' from our #5 CB...
Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average.
I am sure I will get flamed as a Browns hater, or Gilbert hater, but I choose to see what someone has done, and not hang everything on what he "might" be. Sure he has talent, he has athleticism. Neither of those translate to being even a good player.
He does have some benefits though.
1. He will play opposite Haden. Regardless of how good or bad Gilbert does, he will usually cover the teams second best receiver. That is very important.
2. Haden doesn't strike me as a guy who will not help younger players. If Gilbert is willing to put in the work, I bet Haden would work with him. I am not saying Haden is the best ever, but he could teach Gilbert a thing or 2 I am sure.
3. Right now the Browns seem to have a quality secondary with Haden, Gipson (if we re-sign him) and Whitner. He won't necesarilly have to do it alone.
4. Improving our pass rush only helps him as well.
Personally I saw more out of K'waun Williams considering he was a undrafted rookie free agen. Regardless I am not saying Gilbert sucks, I am saying he sucked last year. He may (and I hope) he will come out this year, and take his rightful spot opposite Haden. It did take Haden a couple years before he was as good as he is. I just don't believe in practically guaranteeing players, or teams after their body of work from the previous year. I will wait, and hope he plays well.
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He was talking about Desir....
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I'll take an 'average' from our #5 CB...
Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average.
I am sure I will get flamed as a Browns hater, or Gilbert hater, but I choose to see what someone has done, and not hang everything on what he "might" be. Sure he has talent, he has athleticism. Neither of those translate to being even a good player.
He does have some benefits though.
1. He will play opposite Haden. Regardless of how good or bad Gilbert does, he will usually cover the teams second best receiver. That is very important.
2. Haden doesn't strike me as a guy who will not help younger players. If Gilbert is willing to put in the work, I bet Haden would work with him. I am not saying Haden is the best ever, but he could teach Gilbert a thing or 2 I am sure.
3. Right now the Browns seem to have a quality secondary with Haden, Gipson (if we re-sign him) and Whitner. He won't necesarilly have to do it alone.
4. Improving our pass rush only helps him as well.
Personally I saw more out of K'waun Williams considering he was a undrafted rookie free agen. Regardless I am not saying Gilbert sucks, I am saying he sucked last year. He may (and I hope) he will come out this year, and take his rightful spot opposite Haden. It did take Haden a couple years before he was as good as he is. I just don't believe in practically guaranteeing players, or teams after their body of work from the previous year. I will wait, and hope he plays well.
cbbacker said:
Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average.
I am sure I will get flamed as a Browns hater, or Gilbert hater, but I choose to see what someone has done, and not hang everything on what he "might" be. Sure he has talent, he has athleticism. Neither of those translate to being even a good player.
He does have some benefits though.
1. He will play opposite Haden. Regardless of how good or bad Gilbert does, he will usually cover the teams second best receiver. That is very important.
2. Haden doesn't strike me as a guy who will not help younger players. If Gilbert is willing to put in the work, I bet Haden would work with him. I am not saying Haden is the best ever, but he could teach Gilbert a thing or 2 I am sure.
3. Right now the Browns seem to have a quality secondary with Haden, Gipson (if we re-sign him) and Whitner. He won't necesarilly have to do it alone.
4. Improving our pass rush only helps him as well.
Personally I saw more out of K'waun Williams considering he was a undrafted rookie free agen. Regardless I am not saying Gilbert sucks, I am saying he sucked last year. He may (and I hope) he will come out this year, and take his rightful spot opposite Haden. It did take Haden a couple years before he was as good as he is. I just don't believe in practically guaranteeing players, or teams after their body of work from the previous year. I will wait, and hope he plays well.
dude, can you even read and comprehend?
he wasn't talking about gilbert as the #5 corner. he was talking about desir.
get your head out of your sammy watkins loving ass.
why is it that people that desperately wanted watkins hate gilbert, because farmer traded back got the browns another first round pick for this year and drafted the #1 rated corner?
ask buffalo how they feel thursday night when their not even in the room for the first round.
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cbbacker said:
Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average.
I am sure I will get flamed as a Browns hater, or Gilbert hater, but I choose to see what someone has done, and not hang everything on what he "might" be. Sure he has talent, he has athleticism. Neither of those translate to being even a good player.
He does have some benefits though.
1. He will play opposite Haden. Regardless of how good or bad Gilbert does, he will usually cover the teams second best receiver. That is very important.
2. Haden doesn't strike me as a guy who will not help younger players. If Gilbert is willing to put in the work, I bet Haden would work with him. I am not saying Haden is the best ever, but he could teach Gilbert a thing or 2 I am sure.
3. Right now the Browns seem to have a quality secondary with Haden, Gipson (if we re-sign him) and Whitner. He won't necesarilly have to do it alone.
4. Improving our pass rush only helps him as well.
Personally I saw more out of K'waun Williams considering he was a undrafted rookie free agen. Regardless I am not saying Gilbert sucks, I am saying he sucked last year. He may (and I hope) he will come out this year, and take his rightful spot opposite Haden. It did take Haden a couple years before he was as good as he is. I just don't believe in practically guaranteeing players, or teams after their body of work from the previous year. I will wait, and hope he plays well.
dude, can you even read and comprehend?
he wasn't talking about gilbert as the #5 corner. he was talking about desir.
get your head out of your sammy watkins loving ass.
why is it that people that desperately wanted watkins hate gilbert, because farmer traded back got the browns another first round pick for this year and drafted the #1 rated corner?
ask buffalo how they feel thursday night when their not even in the room for the first round.
dude, can you even read and comprehend?
he wasn't talking about gilbert as the #5 corner. he was talking about desir.
get your head out of your sammy watkins loving ass.
why is it that people that desperately wanted watkins hate gilbert, because farmer traded back got the browns another first round pick for this year and drafted the #1 rated corner?
ask buffalo how they feel thursday night when their not even in the room for the first round.
Hey dumbass, I never brought up Watkins. Stay on topic, or just shut up?
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He was talking about Desir....
He was talking about Desir....
Thank you for pointing it out, I did miss that. At least you didn't act like a douche. Thank you. Rest of my post still applies though, but thanks. Nice to see normal people on here.
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Yep, Desir's our #5 corner, not Gilbert...
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Misunderstanding is punishable by death in the darker realms of the internet.
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Misunderstanding is punishable by death in the darker realms of the internet.
I hear ya, the guy that said i wanted Watkins (no where in my thread) wants me dead because I misread lol. Yet he did it also, I never said i wanted Watkins. Just chiming in on Gilbert lol.
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cbbacker said:
I hear ya, the guy that said i wanted Watkins (no where in my thread) wants me dead because I misread lol. Yet he did it also, I never said i wanted Watkins. Just chiming in on Gilbert lol.
mik grows on you over time. Like a fungus or something
it's the drunken rants I love, followed by apologies the next day mik - don't change, we love you just the way you are!
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I'll take an 'average' from our #5 CB...
Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average.
I am sure I will get flamed as a Browns hater, or Gilbert hater, but I choose to see what someone has done, and not hang everything on what he "might" be. Sure he has talent, he has athleticism. Neither of those translate to being even a good player.
He does have some benefits though.
1. He will play opposite Haden. Regardless of how good or bad Gilbert does, he will usually cover the teams second best receiver. That is very important.
2. Haden doesn't strike me as a guy who will not help younger players. If Gilbert is willing to put in the work, I bet Haden would work with him. I am not saying Haden is the best ever, but he could teach Gilbert a thing or 2 I am sure.
3. Right now the Browns seem to have a quality secondary with Haden, Gipson (if we re-sign him) and Whitner. He won't necesarilly have to do it alone.
4. Improving our pass rush only helps him as well.
Personally I saw more out of K'waun Williams considering he was a undrafted rookie free agen. Regardless I am not saying Gilbert sucks, I am saying he sucked last year. He may (and I hope) he will come out this year, and take his rightful spot opposite Haden. It did take Haden a couple years before he was as good as he is. I just don't believe in practically guaranteeing players, or teams after their body of work from the previous year. I will wait, and hope he plays well.
cbbacker said:
Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average.
Thats all good, but the average score for #5 thing is referring to Desir.....not Gilbert.....
and if people would just read instead saying this is based on PFF or Im calling him great, all Im saying is he played better as the season wore on and he improved and he shows tremendous promise....he's not a bust.....and he didnt "fail"(he got better, which is what rookies are suppose to do).....
so all the "he sucked and he failed" stuff comes from the first couple games....And if it doesnt....then what games did he suck in?.....somebody please tell me and Ill go watch again.....
In re to your question on final score?.....GIlbert had a -7 score for games one & three......he then earned a + score in 8 out of 12 games(and 2 evens), giving him a +5 for the balance of his play.....so thats a measurable "improvement".....
Game scoring:...."RED" games are really bad and Gilbert had 3...for Comparison, Skrine had 6...Haden had 3....Revis had 3....and Fuller had 8....
So...in summary....he's improving...not a bust....has what it takes....flashed many times...all good stuff to look forward to....
Now....CB...you seem almost civil today....why no "liar" accusations?
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cbbacker said:
I hear ya, the guy that said i wanted Watkins (no where in my thread) wants me dead because I misread lol. Yet he did it also, I never said i wanted Watkins. Just chiming in on Gilbert lol.
i know your past history about watkins and your disdain for passing on him for gilbert.
so there's that.
nobody wants you dead for misreading...............
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cbbacker said:
I hear ya, the guy that said i wanted Watkins (no where in my thread) wants me dead because I misread lol. Yet he did it also, I never said i wanted Watkins. Just chiming in on Gilbert lol.
i know your past history about watkins and your disdain for passing on him for gilbert.
so there's that.
nobody wants you dead for misreading...............
i know your past history about watkins and your disdain for passing on him for gilbert.
so there's that.
Ha...no doubt.....thats a big part of what prompted this whole thread....CBbackers insistence that we lost that trade, shoulda took Watkins and Gilbert was horrible.....
And then him calling me a blatant liar like 5 times, while he just made up his own facts......hahaha.....
In fact....Here's his exact quote that originally got me going on this whole Gilbert thing.....
"Gilbert was beyond bad, so bad that some of the media thought they would cut him. I never said he couldn't improve. I said he was absolutely horrible last year, and he was. He was so bad, he didn't even play until injuries forced him in last year in the 2nd half of the season. He was benched by a guy who wasn't even drafted in k'waun Williams. Yes that is beyond bad"....
So....there's that......
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