Justin Gilbert thoughts.....
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So, watched Gilbert some more last night and focused on his 1st start which was against Brees & NO....he played a great game and was 100% shut down in the first half.....not one completion. The really interesting part was that Haden ended up having a really bad game.....and when I looked at games 1 & 3(2 others that Gilbert got a lot of playing time) I see Haden struggling again......Gotta say he was getting targeted pretty hard and, I think, it was because Gilberts side was unavailable(closed for business).....anyhoo.....looked back at the comments on this board from week 3 and guess what I found??.....threads screaming about how bad "Haden" sucks.....hahaha.....saying cut the bum......hahaha......(in WEEK 3....Oh my).....
So....could it be that Haden gets more balls when Gilbert is in, lowering his performance....and conversely.....Haden gets less balls when Skrine is in, cause Skrines side is open?......so, in the end, if he develops into a great CB, will Gilberts play expose Haden to more passes and maybe lower his ratings some?........interesting prospect.....
So, anyway.......anyone who really wants to "see" Gilbert play and understand how talented he really is needs only to watch the NO's game.....or the Oakland game.....or the first Cinn game......or the Colts game.....What else is interesting is that the games he got a lot of snaps are also the games he played best.....and are also all wins, except Indy, which was still one of our finer defensive games...
Mud - what was Desir's PFF score?
Desir(+1) is really hard to score(or rate) cause he basically only played 2 games.....and one of them was at Safety...his score for those 2 were +0.5 and +0.3, which are just above average(with 0 being average).....
So, while he did nothing spectacular in those 2 games.....he also made no big mistakes and showed his versatility by playing 2 completely different positions....
He's got everything you want in a #1 CB
Exactly...which I guess is my overall point with this thread.....that this guy is uber talented and that supreme talent is just too good to keep on the bench too much longer.....
And anyone who says he's a bust hasn't REALLY watched him play......
Desir(+1) is really hard to score(or rate) cause he basically only played 2 games.....and one of them was at Safety...his score for those 2 were +0.5 and +0.3, which are just above average(with 0 being average).....
So, while he did nothing spectacular in those 2 games.....he also made no big mistakes and showed his versatility by playing 2 completely different positions.....
I'll take an 'average' from our #5 CB...
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When Hall and Joesph were drafted the bengals were bad and had no depth at CB. The Bengals didn't play Dennard because they didn't have to, so he was a luxury pick. Newman, Hall, and Jones were veterans who had the experience on a team who was a contender, they weren't going to break that up. He should get a shot this year to play and we will see how good he really is.
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as someone else stated above, let's not turn this into a bengals thread.
F them.
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As Gilbert comes along I see Desir doing more safety work because he does not have that burning turn and run speed needed for great corners. Or maybe more as the nichelback on sure passing downs. Either way a guy with "Browns" mentality and great character through handling life's adversities that is essential to a tough D. I think of him more as part of the glue that every team needs in the locker room somewhat like the more talented Joe Haden. This guy helps the team in any way they need from him even if it's just to pull the best out of more talented folks around him by example.
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desir is built like a safety. those shoulders are crazy.
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As Gilbert comes along I see Desir doing more safety work because he does not have that burning turn and run speed needed for great corners. Or maybe more as the nichelback on sure passing downs. Either way a guy with "Browns" mentality and great character through handling life's adversities that is essential to a tough D. I think of him more as part of the glue that every team needs in the locker room somewhat like the more talented Joe Haden. This guy helps the team in any way they need from him even if it's just to pull the best out of more talented folks around him by example.
As Gilbert comes along I see Desir doing more safety work
desir is built like a safety. those shoulders are crazy.
Yep.....I think thats where well see him in the end....FS......and he could be part of the reason the Browns didnt jump to make Gipson rich this year......
with Gipsons knee injury AND the prospect that Desir will gain playing time, Im thinking they'll take another year(or 2) to evaluate Gipson and see which one rises to the top.....
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Desir(+1) is really hard to score(or rate) cause he basically only played 2 games.....and one of them was at Safety...his score for those 2 were +0.5 and +0.3, which are just above average(with 0 being average).....
So, while he did nothing spectacular in those 2 games.....he also made no big mistakes and showed his versatility by playing 2 completely different positions.....
I'll take an 'average' from our #5 CB...
I'll take an 'average' from our #5 CB...
Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average.
I am sure I will get flamed as a Browns hater, or Gilbert hater, but I choose to see what someone has done, and not hang everything on what he "might" be. Sure he has talent, he has athleticism. Neither of those translate to being even a good player.
He does have some benefits though.
1. He will play opposite Haden. Regardless of how good or bad Gilbert does, he will usually cover the teams second best receiver. That is very important.
2. Haden doesn't strike me as a guy who will not help younger players. If Gilbert is willing to put in the work, I bet Haden would work with him. I am not saying Haden is the best ever, but he could teach Gilbert a thing or 2 I am sure.
3. Right now the Browns seem to have a quality secondary with Haden, Gipson (if we re-sign him) and Whitner. He won't necesarilly have to do it alone.
4. Improving our pass rush only helps him as well.
Personally I saw more out of K'waun Williams considering he was a undrafted rookie free agen. Regardless I am not saying Gilbert sucks, I am saying he sucked last year. He may (and I hope) he will come out this year, and take his rightful spot opposite Haden. It did take Haden a couple years before he was as good as he is. I just don't believe in practically guaranteeing players, or teams after their body of work from the previous year. I will wait, and hope he plays well.
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He was talking about Desir....
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I'll take an 'average' from our #5 CB...
Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average.
I am sure I will get flamed as a Browns hater, or Gilbert hater, but I choose to see what someone has done, and not hang everything on what he "might" be. Sure he has talent, he has athleticism. Neither of those translate to being even a good player.
He does have some benefits though.
1. He will play opposite Haden. Regardless of how good or bad Gilbert does, he will usually cover the teams second best receiver. That is very important.
2. Haden doesn't strike me as a guy who will not help younger players. If Gilbert is willing to put in the work, I bet Haden would work with him. I am not saying Haden is the best ever, but he could teach Gilbert a thing or 2 I am sure.
3. Right now the Browns seem to have a quality secondary with Haden, Gipson (if we re-sign him) and Whitner. He won't necesarilly have to do it alone.
4. Improving our pass rush only helps him as well.
Personally I saw more out of K'waun Williams considering he was a undrafted rookie free agen. Regardless I am not saying Gilbert sucks, I am saying he sucked last year. He may (and I hope) he will come out this year, and take his rightful spot opposite Haden. It did take Haden a couple years before he was as good as he is. I just don't believe in practically guaranteeing players, or teams after their body of work from the previous year. I will wait, and hope he plays well.
cbbacker said:
Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average.
I am sure I will get flamed as a Browns hater, or Gilbert hater, but I choose to see what someone has done, and not hang everything on what he "might" be. Sure he has talent, he has athleticism. Neither of those translate to being even a good player.
He does have some benefits though.
1. He will play opposite Haden. Regardless of how good or bad Gilbert does, he will usually cover the teams second best receiver. That is very important.
2. Haden doesn't strike me as a guy who will not help younger players. If Gilbert is willing to put in the work, I bet Haden would work with him. I am not saying Haden is the best ever, but he could teach Gilbert a thing or 2 I am sure.
3. Right now the Browns seem to have a quality secondary with Haden, Gipson (if we re-sign him) and Whitner. He won't necesarilly have to do it alone.
4. Improving our pass rush only helps him as well.
Personally I saw more out of K'waun Williams considering he was a undrafted rookie free agen. Regardless I am not saying Gilbert sucks, I am saying he sucked last year. He may (and I hope) he will come out this year, and take his rightful spot opposite Haden. It did take Haden a couple years before he was as good as he is. I just don't believe in practically guaranteeing players, or teams after their body of work from the previous year. I will wait, and hope he plays well.
dude, can you even read and comprehend?
he wasn't talking about gilbert as the #5 corner. he was talking about desir.
get your head out of your sammy watkins loving ass.
why is it that people that desperately wanted watkins hate gilbert, because farmer traded back got the browns another first round pick for this year and drafted the #1 rated corner?
ask buffalo how they feel thursday night when their not even in the room for the first round.
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cbbacker said:
Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average.
I am sure I will get flamed as a Browns hater, or Gilbert hater, but I choose to see what someone has done, and not hang everything on what he "might" be. Sure he has talent, he has athleticism. Neither of those translate to being even a good player.
He does have some benefits though.
1. He will play opposite Haden. Regardless of how good or bad Gilbert does, he will usually cover the teams second best receiver. That is very important.
2. Haden doesn't strike me as a guy who will not help younger players. If Gilbert is willing to put in the work, I bet Haden would work with him. I am not saying Haden is the best ever, but he could teach Gilbert a thing or 2 I am sure.
3. Right now the Browns seem to have a quality secondary with Haden, Gipson (if we re-sign him) and Whitner. He won't necesarilly have to do it alone.
4. Improving our pass rush only helps him as well.
Personally I saw more out of K'waun Williams considering he was a undrafted rookie free agen. Regardless I am not saying Gilbert sucks, I am saying he sucked last year. He may (and I hope) he will come out this year, and take his rightful spot opposite Haden. It did take Haden a couple years before he was as good as he is. I just don't believe in practically guaranteeing players, or teams after their body of work from the previous year. I will wait, and hope he plays well.
dude, can you even read and comprehend?
he wasn't talking about gilbert as the #5 corner. he was talking about desir.
get your head out of your sammy watkins loving ass.
why is it that people that desperately wanted watkins hate gilbert, because farmer traded back got the browns another first round pick for this year and drafted the #1 rated corner?
ask buffalo how they feel thursday night when their not even in the room for the first round.
dude, can you even read and comprehend?
he wasn't talking about gilbert as the #5 corner. he was talking about desir.
get your head out of your sammy watkins loving ass.
why is it that people that desperately wanted watkins hate gilbert, because farmer traded back got the browns another first round pick for this year and drafted the #1 rated corner?
ask buffalo how they feel thursday night when their not even in the room for the first round.
Hey dumbass, I never brought up Watkins. Stay on topic, or just shut up?
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He was talking about Desir....
He was talking about Desir....
Thank you for pointing it out, I did miss that. At least you didn't act like a douche. Thank you. Rest of my post still applies though, but thanks. Nice to see normal people on here.
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Yep, Desir's our #5 corner, not Gilbert...
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Misunderstanding is punishable by death in the darker realms of the internet.
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Misunderstanding is punishable by death in the darker realms of the internet.
I hear ya, the guy that said i wanted Watkins (no where in my thread) wants me dead because I misread lol. Yet he did it also, I never said i wanted Watkins. Just chiming in on Gilbert lol.
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cbbacker said:
I hear ya, the guy that said i wanted Watkins (no where in my thread) wants me dead because I misread lol. Yet he did it also, I never said i wanted Watkins. Just chiming in on Gilbert lol.
mik grows on you over time. Like a fungus or something
it's the drunken rants I love, followed by apologies the next day mik - don't change, we love you just the way you are!
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I'll take an 'average' from our #5 CB...
Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average.
I am sure I will get flamed as a Browns hater, or Gilbert hater, but I choose to see what someone has done, and not hang everything on what he "might" be. Sure he has talent, he has athleticism. Neither of those translate to being even a good player.
He does have some benefits though.
1. He will play opposite Haden. Regardless of how good or bad Gilbert does, he will usually cover the teams second best receiver. That is very important.
2. Haden doesn't strike me as a guy who will not help younger players. If Gilbert is willing to put in the work, I bet Haden would work with him. I am not saying Haden is the best ever, but he could teach Gilbert a thing or 2 I am sure.
3. Right now the Browns seem to have a quality secondary with Haden, Gipson (if we re-sign him) and Whitner. He won't necesarilly have to do it alone.
4. Improving our pass rush only helps him as well.
Personally I saw more out of K'waun Williams considering he was a undrafted rookie free agen. Regardless I am not saying Gilbert sucks, I am saying he sucked last year. He may (and I hope) he will come out this year, and take his rightful spot opposite Haden. It did take Haden a couple years before he was as good as he is. I just don't believe in practically guaranteeing players, or teams after their body of work from the previous year. I will wait, and hope he plays well.
cbbacker said:
Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average.
Thats all good, but the average score for #5 thing is referring to Desir.....not Gilbert.....
and if people would just read instead saying this is based on PFF or Im calling him great, all Im saying is he played better as the season wore on and he improved and he shows tremendous promise....he's not a bust.....and he didnt "fail"(he got better, which is what rookies are suppose to do).....
so all the "he sucked and he failed" stuff comes from the first couple games....And if it doesnt....then what games did he suck in?.....somebody please tell me and Ill go watch again.....
In re to your question on final score?.....GIlbert had a -7 score for games one & three......he then earned a + score in 8 out of 12 games(and 2 evens), giving him a +5 for the balance of his play.....so thats a measurable "improvement".....
Game scoring:...."RED" games are really bad and Gilbert had 3...for Comparison, Skrine had 6...Haden had 3....Revis had 3....and Fuller had 8....
So...in summary....he's improving...not a bust....has what it takes....flashed many times...all good stuff to look forward to....
Now....CB...you seem almost civil today....why no "liar" accusations?
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cbbacker said:
I hear ya, the guy that said i wanted Watkins (no where in my thread) wants me dead because I misread lol. Yet he did it also, I never said i wanted Watkins. Just chiming in on Gilbert lol.
i know your past history about watkins and your disdain for passing on him for gilbert.
so there's that.
nobody wants you dead for misreading...............
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cbbacker said:
I hear ya, the guy that said i wanted Watkins (no where in my thread) wants me dead because I misread lol. Yet he did it also, I never said i wanted Watkins. Just chiming in on Gilbert lol.
i know your past history about watkins and your disdain for passing on him for gilbert.
so there's that.
nobody wants you dead for misreading...............
i know your past history about watkins and your disdain for passing on him for gilbert.
so there's that.
Ha...no doubt.....thats a big part of what prompted this whole thread....CBbackers insistence that we lost that trade, shoulda took Watkins and Gilbert was horrible.....
And then him calling me a blatant liar like 5 times, while he just made up his own facts......hahaha.....
In fact....Here's his exact quote that originally got me going on this whole Gilbert thing.....
"Gilbert was beyond bad, so bad that some of the media thought they would cut him. I never said he couldn't improve. I said he was absolutely horrible last year, and he was. He was so bad, he didn't even play until injuries forced him in last year in the 2nd half of the season. He was benched by a guy who wasn't even drafted in k'waun Williams. Yes that is beyond bad"....
So....there's that......
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cbbacker said:
Let's think about this for a second, average for our #5 CB? He was the no. 8 pick. Is that relative? An average player who is a #5 CB? I expect him to be our #2 and be average. I expect him to have as many plays as the average #2 CB and not be terrible. He failed that last year. I know alot of people blindly follow our players, but Gilbert had some real issues. He also has real talent. People seem to like PFF, I only found his half season score of nearly -5, anyone know what his final score was? Another article placed him 88 out of 102 qualified corners. That's not even close to average.
Thats all good, but the average score for #5 thing is referring to Desir.....not Gilbert.....
and if people would just read instead saying this is based on PFF or Im calling him great, all Im saying is he played better as the season wore on and he improved and he shows tremendous promise....he's not a bust.....and he didnt "fail"(he got better, which is what rookies are suppose to do).....
so all the "he sucked and he failed" stuff comes from the first couple games....And if it doesnt....then what games did he suck in?.....somebody please tell me and Ill go watch again.....
In re to your question on final score?.....GIlbert had a -7 score for games one & three......he then earned a + score in 8 out of 12 games(and 2 evens), giving him a +5 for the balance of his play.....so thats a measurable "improvement".....
Game scoring:...."RED" games are really bad and Gilbert had 3...for Comparison, Skrine had 6...Haden had 3....Revis had 3....and Fuller had 8....
So...in summary....he's improving...not a bust....has what it takes....flashed many times...all good stuff to look forward to....
Now....CB...you seem almost civil today....why no "liar" accusations?
Thats all good, but the average score for #5 thing is referring to Desir.....not Gilbert.....
and if people would just read instead saying this is based on PFF or Im calling him great, all Im saying is he played better as the season wore on and he improved and he shows tremendous promise....he's not a bust.....and he didnt "fail"(he got better, which is what rookies are suppose to do).....
so all the "he sucked and he failed" stuff comes from the first couple games....And if it doesnt....then what games did he suck in?.....somebody please tell me and Ill go watch again.....
In re to your question on final score?.....GIlbert had a -7 score for games one & three......he then earned a + score in 8 out of 12 games(and 2 evens), giving him a +5 for the balance of his play.....so thats a measurable "improvement".....
Game scoring:...."RED" games are really bad and Gilbert had 3...for Comparison, Skrine had 6...Haden had 3....Revis had 3....and Fuller had 8....
So...in summary....he's improving...not a bust....has what it takes....flashed many times...all good stuff to look forward to....
Now....CB...you seem almost civil today....why no "liar" accusations?
I only call people liars when they are. I was asking about pff, and so forth because I didn't know. You have your opinion on Gilbert as do I. The only thing i want to clarify is I never called him a bust. I believe it takes 2-3 years before you can evaluate any players. Yes I think he sucked, I think some of the articles I read saying he was worse then 3/4 of the league says something. If you choose not to believe it, I am not going to harp on you. I also choose to be not as optimistic as you, I saw last years games, and saw him benched, and sitting behind players he should have been ahead of. I heard fellow players questioning his work ethic, and his attitude. All of that adds up to my opinion of him having a very bad year. I accept you, and others do not agree.
I am always civil till someone insults me. I just disagree with your assesment. Hopefully you will be right. Contrary to popular belief, I want the Browns to do well. I just choose to make opinions off what I believe I have seen. Many others tend to cling to "hopes" or "potential". That's fine, I am not saying that's bad, I just choose to go off what I have seen is all. This is supposed to be a place to give opposing views, but far to often the moderators, and user base tend to just flame people for disagreeing with them. I have no factual proof he will suck, just like you have none that he will be great. All we have is our opinions, and I for one have no issue saying I am wrong, if I am wrong. I freely said i mis-read an earlier portion of this thread. 80% won't even say that like the guy who flamed me about Watkins. He mis-read, but won't admit it. I don't care though, I hope Gilbert is a beast, but we will have to see.
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cbbacker said:
I hear ya, the guy that said i wanted Watkins (no where in my thread) wants me dead because I misread lol. Yet he did it also, I never said i wanted Watkins. Just chiming in on Gilbert lol.
i know your past history about watkins and your disdain for passing on him for gilbert.
so there's that.
nobody wants you dead for misreading...............
i know your past history about watkins and your disdain for passing on him for gilbert.
so there's that.
nobody wants you dead for misreading...............
That was from a different thread. I was on topic for that thread like it or not. Just like i was for this topic. As usualy you blew a gasket for no reason. I stated my opinion, and have been nothing but nice to other posters, then here you come flying in talking about something that has NOTHING to do with this topic. I admitted i mis-read, it happens. There were 2 pages of posts, I was skimming. Doesn't mean you have the right to lay into me about something I am not even talking about.
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