Justin Gilbert thoughts.....

Mudfly

whatever...

I said Watkins was #13 at PFF and you said that was a blatant lie(your exact words)...yet its the truth

I said Buffalo gave us 3 picks to draft Watkins and you said I was wrong there too...yet its the truth

I said Gilbert plays outside CB behind Skrine and you said that was a lie and that he backed up K Williams...even though Williams never once played outside and Gilbert never once played the slot (again...It's Gilbert behind Skrine....and Skrine behind Williams is how the Browns play it)(again, not opinion...but fact that is EASILY looked up and confirmed)

Then I you said PFF and NFL.com are bullshit websites, yet you cite ESPN for your argument as if it's any more valid(most of their writers refer to PFF and NFL to get their stuff, btw)...

Then, after saying PFF isnt valid and, therefore my stat on Watkins was a LIE, you cite Gilberts 1/2 season PFF score for your argument(isnt that hypocrisy)....and the 1/2 season score you cited, is really only a 2 game score....so well rate him on 2 games

and, dude, never claimed to be an expert, a gm or a coach...just someone who's deeply invested in studying the game and talking about it... and I've been doing it for 30 years now.....so, I dont claim my "opinions" are better and I never call other peoples opinions stupid or dumb...never....but I do know a thing or 2 about the game and, usually, only talk on the things I feel I know real well....and DB's are in my roundhouse.....(OL, not so much)....

Ill make you a deal.....since you dont like my opinions, just stay off my shit and, in turn, Ill avoid yours like the plague....kapeesh?

BitchTits

I am fine with that, but one clarification, I said they gave us 3 picks, I even explained this after you said something. They gave us #9, 2015 #1, and 2015 #4. I get that, I said that EARLIER in my posts that you missed. I said they only gave us 2 picks though. We swapped the 3rd. When you swap, you do not "get" another pick. We already HAD a pick. We added 3, and lost 1, how many is that? 3-1=2. I even explained this to you, and you ignored it. We only got 2 picks from them, we already had a third.

Then I you said PFF and NFL.com are bullshit websites, yet you cite ESPN for your argument as if it's any more valid(most of their writers refer to PFF and NFL to get their stuff, btw)..."

This part you will have to quote me on, I might have said something like joe blow website, but I don't remember saying NFL and espn and such are bad sites. I might have said pff isn't fully recognized, but I know I didn't say the others. Which is WHY i said today about pff that I didn't know. Get it now? I told you I didn't know pff. You see how you get on me, but I actually did say these things. Just like the picks, I acknowledged we received 3 picks, for our 1. I just see it differently that we only got 2 picks. We would have made our 2 picks last year had we not traded, that doesn't mean we get to count #9 when we would have already made the #4 pick.

"and, dude, never claimed to be an expert, a gm or a coach...just someone who's deeply invested in studying the game and talking about it... and I've been doing it for 30 years now.....so, I dont claim my "opinions" are better and I never call other peoples opinions stupid or dumb...never....but I do know a thing or 2 about the game and, usually, only talk on the things I feel I know real well....and DB's are in my roundhouse.....(OL, not so much)"

When you start saying you watched the film, and that he .... you are saying you know what you are talking about. Otherwise you are just watching the game. Many people "think" watching the game is the same as film study. It's not. I have been watching games for over 30 years also. I also "think" i know some stuff about football, (more oline/dline though), but you don't see me on here saying how so-and-so is good, bad, and his tape says this ... You are. At best that is only your opinion. Just because you watched the games doesn't mean you know the first thing about cornerbacks. You very well may be a genius and know it down pat, but odds are you don't. So when you start talking about what you saw in games, I take it with a grain of salt. Just like you do when i say what i saw in games. What makes what you saw more important then me? Therefore I don't take what people "see" in tapes or games as law. Odds are like me they don't know shit, they just think they do.

Ok here is my attempt to show you something about Gilbert. I told you when i said it that i meant Williams played ahead of Gilbert, you clearly say that was wrong and here is the quote.

I said Gilbert plays outside CB behind Skrine and you said that was a lie and that he backed up K Williams...even though Williams never once played outside and Gilbert never once played the slot (again...It's Gilbert behind Skrine....and Skrine behind Williams is how the Browns play it)(again, not opinion...but fact that is EASILY looked up and confirmed)

All i said was Williams played ahead, and you disagree, here is an article with the snap counts you used up to week 10. You claimed Gilbert only played bad 3 weeks, but up to and including week 10, you can clearly see his reduced role. This trend continued the rest of the year, except for when Haden missed a couple games for his hip. here is the link http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/11/cleveland_browns_snap_counts.html

Here is a video straight from our dc on Justin, and williams:

So should we believe what you saw, or what our dc sees?

Now this isnt' from espn, pff, or nfl, so my guess is instead of seeing your mistake, you will just discount this article. You are the one who said these stats are easily provable, well here ya go. Now lets see if you finally admit you might have been mistaken. If Williams played more snap counts, what does that say about who was higher on the depth chart? You don't continually play your #5 guy when you have your #3 available.

Now maybe we can stop the arguing. I don't give a shit about Watkins, does that mean i think we won the trade? not yet. I am simply posting my opion on Gilbert. If that makes me a bad Browns fan then so be it.

If the video post isn't allowed I apologize, I am not familliar with the rules of videos.

Mudfly

well, were making slow progress here.....

cbbacker said:

I am fine with that, but one clarification, I said they gave us 3 picks, I even explained this after you said something. They gave us #9, 2015 #1, and 2015 #4. I get that, I said that EARLIER in my posts that you missed. I said they only gave us 2 picks though. We swapped the 3rd. When you swap, you do not "get" another pick. We already HAD a pick. We added 3, and lost 1, how many is that? 3-1=2. I even explained this to you, and you ignored it. We only got 2 picks from them, we already had a third.

Here's the thing....you're counting Sammy AND the pick(which are the same) ...In the beginning, you said we only had Gilbert and #19 and I simply corrected that by saying we also got #4 this year, which makes 3.....then you went on a rant about how we only got 2 picks, because we gave one back, yada yada...when in reality, its what I said originally, that Buffalo gave 3 picks and got Sammy Watkins(or a pick, your choice)...but they still g=paid 3 picks for it..

and we ended up with 3 Buffalo picks....one which we spent last year and 2 that were still gonna spend....and AGAIN....I was simply trying to add that we had #4 too...which obviously twisted you the wrong way.....

You gave me an analogy about trading 2 quarters...but to me that isnt the same because quarters are of identical value and the picks we traded werent...see?.....

Try this analogy instead......We have $1 and Buffalo gives us $3 for it(now our "net" is 2, which is what your saying...right?)(see?...I get it)...but, if Buffalo spends the three dollars on a candy bar....then they paid 3 dollars for a candy bar(which is what Im saying)....

Then I you said PFF and NFL.com are bullshit websites, yet you cite ESPN for your argument as if it's any more valid(most of their writers refer to PFF and NFL to get their stuff, btw)..."

This part you will have to quote me on, I might have said something like joe blow website, but I don't remember saying NFL and espn and such are bad sites.

OK....Happy to quote you....here's what I said...

""""PFF has Watkins as the 13TH rated rookie receiver this year..."""".....

and here's your reply....

"""Sorry bud, most of what you posted is a blatant lie. It's opinion on where you think he finished as the rookie wr... There isn't any site out there rating Sammy low like you said. I guess there might be a Joe Blow.draft.com that says he was bad. Nobody of merit agrees with that statement.

So, there's that ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^(and see, you did call me a liar for citing a stat, not opinion.....see it?)

I might have said pff isn't fully recognized, but I know I didn't say the others. Which is WHY i said today about pff that I didn't know. Get it now? I told you I didn't know pff. You see how you get on me, but I actually did say these things. Just like the picks, I acknowledged we received 3 picks, for our 1. I just see it differently that we only got 2 picks. We would have made our 2 picks last year had we not traded, that doesn't mean we get to count #9 when we would have already made the #4 pick.

Again....my whole point was that we still had #4 this year....THATS ALL I WANTED TO ADD......twas you who wanted to debate how many picks we got and started with the we only got 2 picks thing.....

"and, dude, never claimed to be an expert, a gm or a coach...just someone who's deeply invested in studying the game and talking about it... and I've been doing it for 30 years now.....so, I dont claim my "opinions" are better and I never call other peoples opinions stupid or dumb...never....but I do know a thing or 2 about the game and, usually, only talk on the things I feel I know real well....and DB's are in my roundhouse.....(OL, not so much)"

When you start saying you watched the film.. you are saying you know what you are talking about. NO, Im saying I watched the film and specifically focused on Gilbert....and I watched it over and over again.....here's the thing....you cant even see Gilbert play in a normal game or TV view, unless there is a play to him. The ONLY way to watch DB's is using coaches film that shows all 22....So, someone who watches a player specifically....and has the all 22 tape to do it, MAY have a little more insight than someone whos only watched the original game tape(as aired on TV) and seen only the few plays that went his way...

Otherwise you are just watching the game(not with coaches tape, your not). Many people "think" watching the game is the same as film study. It's not. I have been watching games for over 30 years also. I also "think" i know some stuff about football, (more oline/dline though), but you don't see me on here saying how so-and-so is good, bad, and his tape says this(no, but I see you here saying people SUCK based upon ESPN articles) ... You are. At best that is only your opinion(correct....it's my opinion....and apparently, even though you say we should all be able to post them freely and without getting slammed, mine somehow dont fit that mold for you).

Just because you watched the games doesn't mean you know the first thing about cornerbacks(never said it did). You very well may be a genius and know it down pat, but odds are you don't. So when you start talking about what you saw in games, I take it with a grain of salt. Just like you do when i say what i saw in games. What makes what you saw more important then me? Wow...when did I say I was more important?...or what I saw was more important?....I actually ASKED you to show me what you saw and you couldnt answer and said you dont remember....while Ive given the games Ive watched and what tapes Ive watched and recommended people go look to form their own opinions(did you?) cause Im not forcing an opinion...Im offering one and giving a way to go see for yourself...read the thread man...Therefore I don't take what people "see" in tapes or games as law. Odds are like me they don't know shit, they just think they do.(nice dig.....cant help it, can ya?)

Ok here is my attempt to show you something about Gilbert. I told you when i said it that i meant Williams played ahead of Gilbert, you clearly say that was wrong and here is the quote.

I said Gilbert plays outside CB behind Skrine and you said that was a lie and that he backed up K Williams...even though Williams never once played outside and Gilbert never once played the slot (again...It's Gilbert behind Skrine....and Skrine behind Williams is how the Browns play it)(again, not opinion...but fact that is EASILY looked up and confirmed)

All i said was Williams played ahead, and you disagree, here is an article with the snap counts you used up to week 10. You claimed Gilbert only played bad 3 weeks, but up to and including week 10, you can clearly see his reduced role. This trend continued the rest of the year, except for when Haden missed a couple games for his hip.

First...you completely ignore that Ive pointed out(3 times now) that Kwan plays the slot and Gilbert plays outside. Over and over I say it...and over and over you ignore it...

You also said Skrine and Haden were injured and THAT was the reason that Gilbert played...yet Skrine never missed a game(fact) and Haden only missed one and Desir played that game.....(fact)

And, you keep giving me "partial" stats...like Gilberts first 1/2 PFF score...or snap counts from week 10. MY WHOLE POST is about how he iproved over the course of the season....(not about the first 3 or 10 games)....it' s a full season review......and, based upon "snap counts"(since you brought it up).....Gilbert #3 - Skrine #2 - Haden #1

Now this isnt' from espn, pff, or nfl, so my guess is instead of seeing your mistake, you will just discount this article.(I trust my own eyes more than any opinion piece....and when I read or hear something, I actually check it out and form my own opinions) You are the one who said these stats are easily provable, well here ya go. Now lets see if you finally admit you might have been mistaken.(thats rich, coming from someone who hasn't owned up o one falsehood yet)t If Williams played more snap counts, what does that say about who was higher on the depth chart? But he didnt, did he? Gilbert played more snaps than Kwaun....but, Im sure you wont let that fact effect your opinion. You don't continually play your #5 guy when you have your #3 available. Thats right...you play the best ones MOST....and Gilbert was 3rd.....

I don't give a shit about Watkins.....Me either....THATS why I (and so many others) wish you'd guys would stop bringing it up everytime someone mentions WR, Gilbert or trades.......

Well....it was a nice thread for a day........

BitchTits

Here's the thing....you're counting Sammy AND the pick(which are the same) ...In the beginning, you said we only had Gilbert and #19 and I simply corrected that by saying we also got #4 this year, which makes 3.....then you went on a rant about how we only got 2 picks, because we gave one back, yada yada...when in reality, its what I said originally, that Buffalo gave 3 picks and got Sammy Watkins(or a pick, your choice)...but they still g=paid 3 picks for it..

And I corrected myself in that thread, but you miss read it. Not really my fault now is it? The anology was still stands whether it's two or 3. I even responded to that saying I was talking only the 1's. Again something you missed. Again is that my fault? Nope. If you payed attention you would have seen this stuff and not keep bringing it up.

""""PFF has Watkins as the 13TH rated rookie receiver this year...""""..

you need to link this story. That's how you prove it.

Bleacher report #20 overall, #4 rookie wr (which i said) http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2227720-ranking-the-top-50-rookies-of-the-2014-nfl-season/page/51

Nfl.com #3 rookie wr - http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000434229/article/odell-beckham-mike-evans-head-special-rookie-receiver-class

I would find more but I hate sifting through the fantasy stuff as that has nothing to do with real football. But here are 2 that come from more reputable sources, and they disagree with you. Once you post the link to the story that says he is the 13 rookie wr I will apologize. But i checked there site fairly well, and found nothing like that. So you can stop bringing this up as well, I have proven it, until you find more sources.

For the third time I explained what i saw to you. It's not my fault you are not following.

First...you completely ignore that Ive pointed out(3 times now) that Kwan plays the slot and Gilbert plays outside. Over and over I say it...and over and over you ignore it...

See again you are stating an opinion as fact. This is NOT true. If you don't know how a depth chart works, then i feel sorry for you. Gilbert did play in the slot as well. He also played when Haden was injured, but you keep ignoring that. Sorry but you are wrong. I even posted the article showing that he played LESS than Williams, I even posted a video of the DC saying how he like Williams better. That is why he played over Gilbert. Keep ignoring this all you want, but you are wrong. Plain and simple. I posted sources backing me, either you do the same or just stop already.

You also said Skrine and Haden were injured and THAT was the reason that Gilbert played...yet Skrine never missed a game(fact) and Haden only missed one and Desir played that game.....(fact)

LEARN TO READ I didn't say Skrine was hurt. I said THREE times it was Haden, here is my quote since you cannot read: This trend continued the rest of the year, except for when Haden missed a couple games for his hip.

See how easy it is to not pay attention? At least I am man enough to admit it when I do it. i don't start lying about what someone said.

And, you keep giving me "partial" stats...like Gilberts first 1/2 PFF score...or snap counts from week 10. MY WHOLE POST is about how he iproved over the course of the season....(not about the first 3 or 10 games)....it' s a full season review......and, based upon "snap counts"(since you brought it up).....Gilbert #3 - Skrine #2 - Haden #1

You question my stats, that i source, but you have yet to source anything, and claim I am wrong. I will end this now. Stats for you.

Williams-368

Gilbert - 381

Barely a difference. Oh and by the way

Week 1 Gilbert 87% of defensive snaps

Week 2 64% of defensive snaps.

So how many of those 381 did he have in the first 2 weeks? 80? 90? So he had 25% of his yearly count done in what 2 weeks? So yet again you are wrong. They finished in that order, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Of course Williams took longer to get into the game. He was our #5 cb behind desir, and gilbert, and skrine and haden. I would hope that after earning that many plays week 1 and 2, he would have more. If we toss the first 2 weeks, Williams CRUSHES him in plays. And here's the link backing me up. http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/player-defensive-snap-count-stats/2014/?query=justin+gilbert

How many more ways can i debunk what you say? I even post the links to the places that show you are wrong. Williams clearly was ahead, The Browns DC agrees with me, not you, the stats agree with me, and not you. Opinion pieces agree again with me, not you. The ONLY thing you say is what you "saw" which is worthless.

You sit here and act like I am carrying on, yet you get proven wrong, and are not man enough to just admit it. The stuff you whine about, you didn't read properly (not my fault), the stuff you "see" is meaning less, and the stats you post come with no sources. For all I know you are looking at fantasy rankings for your 13 wr ranking. I just listed 2, you can verify that they show he was top 4. Put in the work or stop wasting our time.

Lets see what kind of character you have. Either you will just argue to argue, because you know you are wrong, and are mad, or you will just admit your mistake, and we can move on, or you will find other stats, and reports from reputable sources that back you up.

My guess is you will just argue to argue.

Mudfly

well....Im stepping down.....feel like Im talking to a rock....you miss every single point....every one

miktoxic

shades of (dare i say).........stockton?

yeah i'll stop before i say his name.

BitchTits

@mudfly said:
well....Im stepping down.....feel like Im talking to a rock....you miss every single point....every one

You have yet to back up any points. You are stopping because you cannot refute the proof I put. I don't blame you though. But don't sit there and pretend you are stopping for any other reason. You cannot even link the #13 story. Atleast i tried to back up what I said.

I give ya a bit of credit, while you didn't choose to argue, didn't choose to be a man and admit your mistake, or find stats to back you.

You chose option 4, unlisted option: just pretend I am right and back down in the hopes this ends. Good one!!

miktoxic

cbbacker said:

You have yet to back up any points. You are stopping because you cannot refute the proof I put. I don't blame you though. But don't sit there and pretend you are stopping for any other reason. You cannot even link the #13 story. Atleast i tried to back up what I said.

I give ya a bit of credit, while you didn't choose to argue, didn't choose to be a man and admit your mistake, or find stats to back you.

You chose option 4, unlisted option: just pretend I am right and back down in the hopes this ends. Good one!!

wow. some people just don't know when to stop.

i take my semi apology back.

you ARE a dick.

BitchTits

@miktoxic said:

wow. some people just don't know when to stop.

i take my semi apology back.

you ARE a dick.

I am when someone gets shown something, but still chooses to ignore. You pointed out that i was a tard and didn't get the #5 corner comment. Did i sit here and pretend that I didn't say that, or that I was still right? He wanted me to reply, go back and look, he challenged me on the wr #13 comment, he challenged me with the what i see stuff. He challenged me to find something that showed what i was saying was true.

So I am a dick because I did what he asked? He chose to not respond once I backed up my thoughts. He could have been like me earlier and just admit it. If that means I am a dick, then so be it. I would rather be a dick because I proved myself, than a dick just to be a dick like many others on these forums.

Tour2ma

What was the question?

@mudfly said:
I guess the big difference I see......say between him and JFF.....is all he has to do is focus more, cause everything else is there. Jff, on the other hand, still has physical limitations and such to overcome, along with the focus & maturity issues......

Just a feeling, but I had the impression that Gilbert was one of a handful of players who got caught up in some Johnny worship and followed his lead when it came to dedication.

If JM has in fact gotten his act together, then it won't hurt a lick if they continue to follow his lead this year. However, given JM's off-season fall, I would not be surprised if they have moved on to other role models.

@gftchris said:
Mud - what was Desir's PFF score?

Mud's gonna need a PayPal account...

Mudfly

@tour2ma said:

What was the question?

Just a feeling, but I had the impression that Gilbert was one of a handful of players who got caught up in some Johnny worship and followed his lead when it came to dedication.

Mud's gonna need a PayPal account...

Agreed....based on everything(and mostly what the coaches said)...I got the sense he was sitting for practice and disciplinary reasons....not necessarily his play in games. And he was benched "after" his best game cause coach said he slacked all week in practice..same kind of tough love that West got

ha....only wish PFF allowed you to link.....but since its a pay sight, no can do......

Not sure why I even bother to pay, since I just lie and make shit up anyway....when will I learn.....

miktoxic

BaconHound

Hopefully Gilbert will make huge strides this offseason and becomes a very good corner.

BitchTits

@mudfly said:

Agreed....based on everything(and mostly what the coaches said)...I got the sense he was sitting for practice and disciplinary reasons....not necessarily his play in games. And he was benched "after" his best game cause coach said he slacked all week in practice..same kind of tough love that West got

ha....only wish PFF allowed you to link.....but since its a pay sight, no can do......

Not sure why I even bother to pay, since I just lie and make shit up anyway....when will I learn.....

Two questions

1. How did you see the article if it was a pay site? Had to be a member at some point? Just coincedentally happened to not be a member now that you use that as a source?

2. There are no other sites on the entire internet that have any rankings that back you up? With 5 min investigation I found 2 backing me. I bet with 20 to sift through all the fantasy crap, I could likely find 1-2 more, but you are unable to find any except from a pay site you apparently no longer have access to?

Here is one with Watkins ranked #15- http://fantasynews.cbssports.com/fantasyfootball/story/24980304/offseason-extra-early-2015-wr-tiers-strategies

Here is one with him ranked at #14- http://fantasy.usatoday.com/2015/02/2015-fantasy-football-rankings-top-50

Here is one with him at #24 - https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/04/09/2015-wide-receiver-rankings-pre-draft/

Here is one with him at #19 - http://espn.go.com/fantasy/football/story/_/page/TMRranks150311/matthew-berry-offseason-2015-fantasy-football-rankings

I am starting to think you were looking at fantasy rankings. I found these with him around the spot you claim with only 10 minutes worth of work. You can make snide comments, and say garbage like " Not sure why I even bother to pay, since I just lie and make shit up anyway....when will I learn...."

To bad you just cannot admit you are wrong. Remember you are the one who started this. You are the one who challenged me to back up my points. You are the one who pushed this. Now you're mad that I found stuff to prove you wrong.

BitchTits

@baconhound said:
Hopefully Gilbert will make huge strides this offseason and becomes a very good corner.

I think he will. Him and JM both have lost respect of their teamates, and fans. I am sure that's a hard thing to deal with. I would fully expect him to be better prepared, and more importantly have a better attitude.

Mudfly

Look....I dont know what your agenda is, but you should really give it a rest.....I cant explain myself any clearer and we aren't communicating...ok?,,,,but I will answer your questions....nicely.....

cbbacker said:

Two questions

1. How did you see the article if it was a pay site? Its not an "article" is a player stat sight that sorts every stat imaginable and also score player by the game. I can see it because I have subscription to it. Had to be a member at some point? I AM A MEMBER. Just coincedentally happened to not be a member now that you use that as a source? I have no clue what you're implying or even mean by this. You've never met me....I come here ONLY to talk ball...never troll or go after others....yet you constantly question my integrity and imply that Im being dishonest or something....whats your gig?....go to PFF and look up "premium stats" and learn...

2. There are no other sites on the entire internet that have any rankings that back you up? Most other sights, like the ones you listed below, use PFF as their source. Most fantasy site do to. Pretty much the standard. With 5 min investigation I found 2 backing me. I bet with 20 to sift through all the fantasy crap, I could likely find 1-2 more, but you are unable to find any except from a pay site you apparently no longer have access to? I have access to it, but you cannot link to or copy their pages, which is how they protect the integrity of the "pay" site....otherwise, one guy pays then posts it all over and no one else wants to pay....see?....

I am starting to think you were looking at fantasy rankings. I found these with him around the spot you claim with only 10 minutes worth of work. You can make snide comments, and say garbage like " Not sure why I even bother to pay, since I just lie and make shit up anyway....when will I learn...."

To bad you just cannot admit you are wrong. Remember you are the one who started this. You are the one who challenged me to back up my points. You are the one who pushed this. Now you're mad that I found stuff to prove you wrong....You're a Retard. Go away.

DieHardBrownsFan

I don't like Gilbert. I doubt he will be a good player. But this fucking infighting on here is getting old

gumby73

Does anybody remember Buster Skrine first season with Haden...Gilbert will be fine and prove his draft slot IMO...

BitchTits

Look....I dont know what your agenda is, but you should really give it a rest.....I cant explain myself any clearer and we aren't communicating...ok?,,,,but I will answer your questions....nicely.....

cbbacker, on 27 Apr 2015 - 5:53 PM, said:

cbbacker said:

Its not an "article" is a player stat sight that sorts every stat imaginable and also score player by the game. I can see it because I have subscription to it.

Hey that's fine, you finally answered my question. I have only been trying to get you to explain where you got your #15 comment. Don't get pissy with me for that. You could have said 3 posts ago you couldn't link it. Instead you either ignored it, or forgot about it. What am I supposed to think when you won't answer the simple question? You could have settled that part 4 posts ago. That's your fault.

I also am not likely to believe something I cant see. While you may not be able to link it, only means your lazy and not willing to find anything else on the internet to help back you. I have put in my time, and you have completely ignored everything i have put. I showed you were wrong on the snap counts, but nothing from you. I showed you what our DC felt about Williams over Gilbert, you ignored it. I showed 2 places that had Watkins as a top 4 wr at the end of the year for rookies, but you ignored it. Why are you mad at me? You are the one who wanted the stats, links and proof, and when I provide it, you ignore it and get pissy?

Most other sights, like the ones you listed below, use PFF as their source. Most fantasy site do to. Pretty much the standard. With 5 min investigation I found 2 backing me. I bet with 20 to sift through all the fantasy crap, I could likely find 1-2 more, but you are unable to find any except from a pay site you apparently no longer have access to? I have access to it, but you cannot link to or copy their pages, which is how they protect the integrity of the "pay" site....otherwise, one guy pays then posts it all over and no one else wants to pay....see?....

What does fantasy have to do with NFL? Absolutely nothing. So it doesn't matter that they use pff to help them with there evaluations. Honestly I don't even buy that they use them. Rankings for fantasy and reality can be very different. Not always, but usually.

I am starting to think you were looking at fantasy rankings. I found these with him around the spot you claim with only 10 minutes worth of work. You can make snide comments, and say garbage like " Not sure why I even bother to pay, since I just lie and make shit up anyway....when will I learn...."

To bad you just cannot admit you are wrong. Remember you are the one who started this. You are the one who challenged me to back up my points. You are the one who pushed this. Now you're mad that I found stuff to prove you wrong....You're a Retard. Go away.

You stated just one paragraph up about pff and fantasy, yet call me a Retard when I ask if you are confused?

I don't understand why you are hating on me. I only did what you asked. If anyone should be mad, it should be me. You are completely ignoring everything i posted with facts, and links to back them. You haven't posted any stats, nor links, but continue to toss insults. Are you just unable to articulate whe you are thinking? Are you just lazy and don't want to prove what you say? Are you just one of those people that just says what he wants, and even when wrong hold firm to his stance?

I mean seriously, why so hateful? If you don't want to continue, just stop posting. I have already agreed earlier to stay out of your responses if you do the same. Remember YOU are the one who wanted me to do this, so don't get mad at me just doing what you said. This can end whenever you are ready? I know I am right, you know I am right. I don't even need you to say it, keep your pride. Just stop.

And yes I have no problem replying till this thread is locked if you do. I would rather however talk about Justin Gilbert and see what other peoples beliefs are concerning him.

Frenchie

Mudfly, I agree with your analysis. I've already predicted on this board that Justin will be the most improved player on the Browns next year. And while the "not-to-be-coached" ego thing is probably true, I also didn't like the way the coach handled Justine. Put him in the games and let him sink/swim and learn. The headlines in the paper the next day are the way you motivate a JG to improve his skills and learn the craft. There was no need to starts Desir and others over Gilbert towards the end of the season. The Pick-6 was a turning point and should have garnered Justin much more playing time.