Weakened Weaknesses

The Gipper

@calfoxwc said:

Zombo would argue with you that Archie was NOT such a great QB. The numbers support Z. Mr. Gipper

****************************************************

Numbers represent the dismal talent of the team around him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Manning

If Ken Stabler and Ken Anderson from that same era can't make HOF, then Archie certainly wouldn't be considered.

The Gipper

@tour2ma said:
There's only been one ten-year starter in our history.

OK, misunderstood. Here is the roster of how many years a particular QB was the primary starting QB for the Browns (i.e started the most games in a particular season):

Otto Graham 10 years

Brian Sipe 8 years

Bernie Kosar 7 years

Frank Ryan 6 years

Milt Plum 4 years

Bill Nelsen 4 years

Mike Phipps 4 years

Tim Couch 4 years

Vinny Testaverde 3 years

Tommy O'Connell 2 years

Derek Anderson 2 years

Colt McCoy 2 years

Paul McDonald, Mike Tomscak, Kelly Holcomb, Jeff Garcia, Charlie Frye, Trent Dilfer, Brady Quinn, Brandon Weeden, Jason Campbell, and Brian Hoyer 1 year each

Of these 10 one year wonders....only McDonald and Tomscak preceded "The Move". The other 8 have all been since 1999.

Mudfly

@the-gipper said:
If Ken Stabler and Ken Anderson from that same era can't make HOF, then Archie certainly wouldn't be considered.

HOF is basically reserved for the top 1%....and Id say none of those guys fit that mold....

Great players get passed up all the time, because its only for the greatEST of the great.....there are already like 15 QB's from the 70's and 80's in the HOF, so how many "greatest ever" can there be beyond that?.....

300 new players enter the league every year and approx 3-4 get into the hall every year......it's easy math....

The Gipper

@mudfly said:

HOF is basically reserved for the top 1%....and Id say none of those guys fit that mold....

Great players get passed up all the time, because its only for the greatEST of the great.....there are already like 15 QB's from the 70's and 80's in the HOF, so how many "greatest ever" can there be beyond that?.....

300 new players enter the league every year and approx 3-4 get into the hall every year......it's easy math....

Here is a way I see it....a potential HOF QB comes along about once every two years....and maybe a sure fire HOF once every 3-4 years.

Take the last 25 years since 1990. As I see it the only QBs that could even sniff a HOF election are as follows:

By decade: 1990s

1991 Brett Favre

1993 Drew Bledsoe

1995 Steve McNair

1998 Peyton Manning

1999 Donovan McNabb

of these....only Favre and Manning are sure things the others are unlikely....that makes just 2 in that decade

Plus the 1990s produced Kurt Warner....a probable. So make that just 3 HOF QBs produced during the 1990 decade

2000 Tom Brady

2001 Drew Brees

2003 Carson Palmer

2004 Roethlisberger/Eli Manning/Phillip Rivers

2005 Aaron Rodgers

2008 Matt Ryan

this decade produced more probably 4 sure things, plus 2 high maybes plus a couple of borderline and below.

2011 Cam Newton

2012 Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson

Halfway through the 2010 decade and so far just possibles. All these guys need to do more imo to basically cement HOF consideration.

The Gipper

Great players get passed up all the time, because its only for the greatEST of the great.....there are already like 15 QB's from the 70's and 80's in the HOF, so how many "greatest ever" can there be beyond that?.....

Actually, lets examine this to this point: How many HOF QBs were drafted in the 1970s/80s. Here they are....and your statement of there being like 15 is way too high:

1970 Terry Bradshaw

1973 Dan Fouts

1979 Joe Montana

1983 Marino, Elway, Kelly

1984 Steve Young

1989 Troy Aikman

plus in 1984 Warren Moon came in. That is 9 HOF QBs in a 20 year period.

Which I think will be the same number when it comes down to it for HOF QBs in the 1990-2010 period:

Favre, P. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Warner, BR, plus Eli, Rivers...outside chances.

Maybe when you say 70s QBs you refer to QBs that came out in the 60s but played in the 70s that are HOF. There are only 4 names on that list:

Griese

Namath

Staubach

Tarkenton

So, to an extent, I think you are right. Players that some may consider great have been passed up.

Mudfly

@the-gipper said:

Here is a way I see it....a potential HOF QB comes along about once every two years....and maybe a sure fire HOF once every 3-4 years.

yeah...but in my world, thats wayyyy too frequent and QB's get elevated above other greats, just because they are QB's...

There are 22 positions and should be an equal ratio of greatness throughout those 22 positions represented in the HOF....but there isnt......I say a disproportionate number of skill players are in there....

There are barely even 2 good QB's that get drafted every year, so how could there be a HOFer every 2 years???.....

The Gipper

Here is the list of players who are or could be HOF eligible who had a PFR Career Production average of 99 or above that are not in the HOF:

Randall Cunningham

Boomer Esiason

Ken Anderson

John Hadl

Drew Bledsoe

Steve McNair

Donovan McNabb

Rich Gannon

John Brodie.

Here is the next rung: QBs who scored in the 90s production wise who are not in HOF:

Marc Brunell

Trent Green

Vinny Testaverde

Phil Simms

Steve Grogan

Ken Stabler

Roman Gabriel

I know some people here say that none of the above should be put in. I may be a bit more liberal.

Note on this: Active QBs already over 100: Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rivers, BR, Rodgers

Active QBs in the 90s range so far: Eli: 96 Michael Vick 92

Mudfly

@the-gipper said:

Great players get passed up all the time, because its only for the greatEST of the great.....there are already like 15 QB's from the 70's and 80's in the HOF, so how many "greatest ever" can there be beyond that?.....

Actually, lets examine this to this point: How many HOF QBs were drafted in the 1970s/80s. Here they are....and your statement of there being like 15 is way too high:

Yep...that was off the top of my head. Went and looked and the actual # is 12.

1970 Terry Bradshaw

1973 Dan Fouts

1979 Joe Montana

1983 Marino, Elway, Kelly

1984 Steve Young

1989 Troy Aikman

plus in 1984 Warren Moon came in. That is 9 HOF QBs in a 20 year period.

Which I think will be the same number when it comes down to it for HOF QBs in the 1990-2010 period:

Favre, P. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Warner, BR, plus Eli, Rivers...outside chances.

Maybe when you say 70s QBs you refer to QBs that came out in the 60s but played in the 70s that are HOF. There are only 4 names on that list:

Griese

Namath

Staubach

Tarkenton

Yes....had these guys as 70's players.....

So, to an extent, I think you are right. Players that some may consider great have been passed up.

Right...And, as Ive said in the past, I personally wouldnt put all these QB in, over so many greats that aren't in yet......

Im much more of a stickler on this stuff....

@the-gipper said:

Here is the list of players who are or could be HOF eligible who had a PFR Career Production average of 99 or above that are not in the HOF:

Randall Cunningham

Boomer Esiason

Ken Anderson

John Hadl

Drew Bledsoe

Steve McNair

Donovan McNabb

Rich Gannon

John Brodie.

Here is the next rung: QBs who scored in the 90s production wise who are not in HOF:

Marc Brunell

Trent Green

Vinny Testaverde

Phil Simms

Steve Grogan

Ken Stabler

Roman Gabriel

I know some people here say that none of the above should be put in. I may be a bit more liberal.

That would be me....cause I dont see a HOF QB on that list......^^^^^

The Gipper

@mudfly said:

yeah...but in my world, thats wayyyy too frequent and QB's get elevated above other greats, just because they are QB's...

There are 22 positions and should be an equal ratio of greatness throughout those 22 positions represented in the HOF....but there isnt......I say a disproportionate number of skill players are in there....

There are barely even 2 good QB's that get drafted every year, so how could there be a HOFer every 2 years???.....

Well, I actually think you get your wish to some extent. As noted, in the 90s there are only 3 sure things, Favre, Peyton and probably Warner. In the 5 years from 2005 to 2009....only one guy: Rodgers. The first half had more...but you can't deny their quality, can you?

The entire decade of the 70s had just 3 HOFers drafted. Fouts, Bradshaw and Montana. The 80s had more...but there too, you cannot deny their quality.

The Gipper

That would be me....cause I dont see a HOF QB on that list......^^^^^

I could probably see 3-4. Like Stabler/Anderson/Hadl....maybe

On Anderson, per the PFR, there have only been 10 QBs in history considered more "productive" than he was. Peyton, Favre, Brady, Tarkenton, Marino, Brees, Elway, Young, Montana, Fouts.

Mudfly

@the-gipper said:

That would be me....cause I dont see a HOF QB on that list......^^^^^

I could probably see 3-4. Like Stabler/Anderson/Hadl....maybe

On Anderson, per the PFR, there have only been 10 QBs in history considered more "productive" than he was. Peyton, Favre, Brady, Tarkenton, Marino, Brees, Elway, Young, Montana, Fouts.

I like Anderson the best from that list and would pick him from that group if I had to choose one.....he was always kinda low profile, but definitely an excellent QB......

The Gipper

@mudfly said:
I like Anderson the best from that list and would pick him from that group if I had to choose one.....he was always kinda low profile, but definitely an excellent QB......

OK....but....can I ask you a question?

Why do you pick the absolute ugliest guys on the Browns to use as your avatar. I mean, remember when I had the Fear the Roo bikini chick for my avatar.....pleasing to the eye. Your avatars, however, can be revolting!

Tour2ma

Bito? Revolting? Shame on you. sir...

Mudfly

@tour2ma said:
Bito? Revolting? Shame on you. sir...

Ha!.....I agree....

To me....Bito's beautiful.....like a new born baby.......

The Gipper

@tour2ma said:
Bito? Revolting? Shame on you. sir...

OK, not revolting....just uglier than sin.

I mean, even Richard Nixon from his days playing for Whittier College is better looking, no?

Opal312

@tiamat63 said:
Peyton Manning scared everyone but the Hawks defense.
While the QB is undoubtedly the most important position on the field, look no further than organizations that have used good to great signal callers that have masked deficiencies in their teams.

The Colts might be the best example. Without Manning and Luck they're total trash.[/quote

Totally agree. The Colts are overrated and so are the Broncos. The Browns coaching staff could have a better than average year if they stick to the run and defense. Their mistake last year was Ben Tate and he's gone and the Oline is healthy. Go Browns!

Unsympathetic

Today's article? Pryor looked amazing. It is without pads.. but the concern regarding him accelerating out of cuts, and the concerns about his hands.. should be gone.

Pryor will be my final pick in fantasy this year.

The Gipper

@unsympathetic said:

Today's article? Pryor looked amazing. It is without pads.. but the concern regarding him accelerating out of cuts, and the concerns about his hands.. should be gone.

Pryor will be my final pick in fantasy this year.

I don't think they should be gone after one day. After all, they were only in shorts. Put on the gear and let's see if he grows alligator arms at the thought of being slobberknockered when he has to go over the middle.

Good so far....but by no means is anything proven.