Nate Orchard is a bust.
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I know it's not fair to judge Orchard by one play, but he missed a pretty big tackle on a swing pass, and he wasn't even closes. Gruden called him out pretty badly for it, too. It wasn't an easy play, but Nate didn't even slow the guy down. Ugh.
In my mind there are side by side images of plays from our MNF game and the SNF Pats/Broncos' game.
- Both are swing passes to the right flat to RBs (the Ravens' Allen and the Broncos' Hilliard).
- Both are closed upon by LBs (our Orchard and the Pats' Hightower).
- In our game Nate never sets, gets juked and virtually whiffs as the RB runs for a 1st down.
- In the Pats' game, Hightower breaks down, awaits the RB's move and makes an ankle tackle far short of the line to gain.
The main difference is position coaching.
I know it's not fair to judge Orchard by one play, but he missed a pretty big tackle on a swing pass, and he wasn't even closes. Gruden called him out pretty badly for it, too. It wasn't an easy play, but Nate didn't even slow the guy down. Ugh.
In my mind there are side by side images of plays from our MNF game and the SNF Pats/Broncos' game.
- Both are swing passes to the right flat to RBs (the Ravens' Allen and the Broncos' Hilliard).
- Both are closed upon by LBs (our Orchard and the Pats' Hightower).
- In our game Nate never sets, gets juked and virtually whiffs as the RB runs for a 1st down.
- In the Pats' game, Hightower breaks down, awaits the RB's move and makes an ankle tackle far short of the line to gain.
The main difference is position coaching.
the fucking gm is a bust...deal with it..he knows absolutely nothing about talent....
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I know it's not fair to judge Orchard by one play, but he missed a pretty big tackle on a swing pass, and he wasn't even closes. Gruden called him out pretty badly for it, too. It wasn't an easy play, but Nate didn't even slow the guy down. Ugh.
In my mind there are side by side images of plays from our MNF game and the SNF Pats/Broncos' game.
- Both are swing passes to the right flat to RBs (the Ravens' Allen and the Broncos' Hilliard).
- Both are closed upon by LBs (our Orchard and the Pats' Hightower).
- In our game Nate never sets, gets juked and virtually whiffs as the RB runs for a 1st down.
- In the Pats' game, Hightower breaks down, awaits the RB's move and makes an ankle tackle far short of the line to gain.
The main difference is position coaching.
the fucking gm is a bust...deal with it..he knows absolutely nothing about talent....
the fucking gm is a bust...deal with it..he knows absolutely nothing about talent....
The only bust here is Mike Pettine.
Deal with it.
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Would SOMEONE PLEASE list the Browns' players, drafted by Farmer or before, who have played at a higher level this year? Farmer has NOT drafted or signed them all, but Pettine & staff HAVE coached them all, with a regression in performance & results folks. Scheme, fundamentals, & on field discipline suck!
Sorry, but I'm calling "common denominator" here, & that is the coaching.......High School Mike needs to go home.
Mike
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Would SOMEONE PLEASE list the Browns' players, drafted by Farmer or before, who have played at a higher level this year? Farmer has NOT drafted or signed them all, but Pettine & staff HAVE coached them all, with a regression in performance & results folks. Scheme, fundamentals, & on field discipline suck!
Sorry, but I'm calling "common denominator" here, & that is the coaching.......High School Mike needs to go home.
Mike
Would SOMEONE PLEASE list the Browns' players, drafted by Farmer or before, who have played at a higher level this year? Farmer has NOT drafted or signed them all, but Pettine & staff HAVE coached them all, with a regression in performance & results folks. Scheme, fundamentals, & on field discipline suck!
Sorry, but I'm calling "common denominator" here, & that is the coaching.......High School Mike needs to go home.
Manziel, Schwartz, Benji, maybe Gabe... Not as sure about D, but maybe Des B., K'waun, Desir.
Now your turn... list pre-Pet Browns that have played worse this and last year than they did under Chud/Patsy...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
So Nate makes his name in college ( 18.5 sacks, 2014 All American Team & 2014 Ted Hendricks award winner) by rushing the quarterback. Now with the Browns I don't think I have even seen this guy rushing the quarterback but I do see him a lot in coverage. I look back at some draft analysis on Nate and all had positive thing to say about his pass rushing skills and on the reverse side most had pass coverage as something he need to work on and some didn't even mention him at all in pass coverage they just talked about his ability to rush the quarterback. The position that the Browns are putting Nate Orchard in is not what he played in college. You didn't draft him to play coverage you drafted him because he can rush the quarterback.
....and people laughed when I said if the Browns and Pettine drafted Joey Bosa they would move him to OLB.
"You see the Rams are still thinking that they are playing Tony Dorsett" -Jim Brown 1978 -
Would SOMEONE PLEASE list the Browns' players, drafted by Farmer or before, who have played at a higher level this year? Farmer has NOT drafted or signed them all, but Pettine & staff HAVE coached them all, with a regression in performance & results folks. Scheme, fundamentals, & on field discipline suck!
Sorry, but I'm calling "common denominator" here, & that is the coaching.......High School Mike needs to go home.
Manziel, Schwartz, Benji, maybe Gabe... Not as sure about D, but maybe Des B., K'waun, Desir.
Now your turn... list pre-Pet Browns that have played worse this and last year than they did under Chud/Patsy...
Manziel, Schwartz, Benji, maybe Gabe... Not as sure about D, but maybe Des B., K'waun, Desir.
Now your turn... list pre-Pet Browns that have played worse this and last year than they did under Chud/Patsy...
My statement was THIS year, drafted by Farmer or before, so let's stick with that...played worse: Mack, Thomas (penalties), Hawkins, Crowell, Gabriel, Haden, Kruger. Bottom line is that REgress trumps PROgress this year, & Pettine has thrown them under the bus as opposed to accepting the inadequacies of HIS system.
I'm not going to debate this with you. We are neither 100% right or wrong, so let's just agree to disagree. My opinion remains that Pettine has FAILED to take this Team forward.
Mike
IN DORSEY I TRUST -
So Nate makes his name in college ( 18.5 sacks, 2014 All American Team & 2014 Ted Hendricks award winner) by rushing the quarterback. Now with the Browns I don't think I have even seen this guy rushing the quarterback but I do see him a lot in coverage. I look back at some draft analysis on Nate and all had positive thing to say about his pass rushing skills and on the reverse side most had pass coverage as something he need to work on and some didn't even mention him at all in pass coverage they just talked about his ability to rush the quarterback. The position that the Browns are putting Nate Orchard in is not what he played in college. You didn't draft him to play coverage you drafted him because he can rush the quarterback.
....and people laughed when I said if the Browns and Pettine drafted Joey Bosa they would move him to OLB.
So Nate makes his name in college ( 18.5 sacks, 2014 All American Team & 2014 Ted Hendricks award winner) by rushing the quarterback. Now with the Browns I don't think I have even seen this guy rushing the quarterback but I do see him a lot in coverage. I look back at some draft analysis on Nate and all had positive thing to say about his pass rushing skills and on the reverse side most had pass coverage as something he need to work on and some didn't even mention him at all in pass coverage they just talked about his ability to rush the quarterback. The position that the Browns are putting Nate Orchard in is not what he played in college. You didn't draft him to play coverage you drafted him because he can rush the quarterback.
....and people laughed when I said if the Browns and Pettine drafted Joey Bosa they would move him to OLB.
Agreed. I can add nothing more.
Mike
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So Nate makes his name in college ( 18.5 sacks, 2014 All American Team & 2014 Ted Hendricks award winner) by rushing the quarterback. Now with the Browns I don't think I have even seen this guy rushing the quarterback but I do see him a lot in coverage. I look back at some draft analysis on Nate and all had positive thing to say about his pass rushing skills and on the reverse side most had pass coverage as something he need to work on and some didn't even mention him at all in pass coverage they just talked about his ability to rush the quarterback. The position that the Browns are putting Nate Orchard in is not what he played in college. You didn't draft him to play coverage you drafted him because he can rush the quarterback.
....and people laughed when I said if the Browns and Pettine drafted Joey Bosa they would move him to OLB.
So Nate makes his name in college by rushing the quarterback...Now with the Browns..... I do see him a lot in coverage. ....You didn't draft him to play coverage you drafted him because he can rush the quarterback.
That completely plays into the point Ive been TRYING to make throughout this entire thread.....Ill say it louder....
ALL 4 OF OUR OLBS WERE BROUGHT HERE JUST TO RUSH THE PASSER.....EVERY SINGLE ONE....
Mingo, pass rush specialist......Kruger, pass rush specialist.....Armonty, pass rush specialist,....and Orchard, pass rush specialist...
Now,,,, for all you guys saying Pettine is an idiot for "miss-using" these guys in coverage or playing the run......WHO is he SUPPOSED to use?????.....do we just rush everybody every play?????....cmon, think about it.....
This is on Farmer for bringing in 4 one dimensional players who ALL have the same ONE skill, while NOT having the other TWO skills required to be an OLB in the NFL.....
Pettine has no choice but to drop someone....almost every play,,,,,so who's it gonna be if you;re not gonna drop Mingo, Kruger, Armonty or Orchard?????
Maybe Ray Farmer can suit up and do it????
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So it's Pet fault for not rushing at least 7 every pass play?
Is that what you are trying to say?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I wonder how much of a stretch it would be to employ more of an under system that someone like Dan Quinn uses.
The way I see it, the personnel we have isn't far off from what was used during his tenure in Seattle. I picture Orchard growing into a Leo spot quite well.
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So it's Pet fault for not rushing at least 7 every pass play?
Is that what you are trying to say?
So it's Pet fault for not rushing at least 7 every pass play?
Is that what you are trying to say?
yes....rush em all....and screw trying to cover any backs or TE's......
Maybe the 2 middle backers can do all that.....stop the run, fill the gaps, set the edge, cover all the RB's and TE's, protect the middle....
While Kruger and the rest just have to wrestle with some O linemen.......
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Manziel, Schwartz, Benji, maybe Gabe... Not as sure about D, but maybe Des B., K'waun, Desir.
Now your turn... list pre-Pet Browns that have played worse this and last year than they did under Chud/Patsy...
My statement was THIS year, drafted by Farmer or before, so let's stick with that...played worse: Mack, Thomas (penalties), Hawkins, Crowell, Gabriel, Haden, Kruger. Bottom line is that REgress trumps PROgress this year, & Pettine has thrown them under the bus as opposed to accepting the inadequacies of HIS system.
I'm not going to debate this with you. We are neither 100% right or wrong, so let's just agree to disagree. My opinion remains that Pettine has FAILED to take this Team forward.
Mike
My statement was THIS year, drafted by Farmer or before, so let's stick with that...played worse: Mack, Thomas (penalties), Hawkins, Crowell, Gabriel, Haden, Kruger. Bottom line is that REgress trumps PROgress this year, & Pettine has thrown them under the bus as opposed to accepting the inadequacies of HIS system.
I'm not going to debate this with you. We are neither 100% right or wrong, so let's just agree to disagree. My opinion remains that Pettine has FAILED to take this Team forward.
Mike
Mack: injuries might be affecting that?
Thomas - penalties: he had 10 last season, 6 so far this, so he's on track for a better season penalty-wise
Hawkins: Not sure what's happened there, probably a change in OC did him in.
Gabriel: same. We're not getting the little guys open as much.
Crowell: no idea.
The above are all O players, and Pett has less to do with that than the D players, so it's quite possibly that the change in OC contributed as much as any thing else. Where Hawkins and Gabriel have gone down, from a combined 1,668 yards last year, Benjamin and Barnidge are already at almost 1,600 combined, so I'll call that at worst a push, and at best getting more out of them.
The others - Thomas, Mack & Crowell, and throw in Bitonio who has not been at the same level by all accounts - are all OL players, and Crowell whose game is a direct product of the OL. Speculation on my part, but I think this is down to a combination of a rookie OC, and *no* OL coach, after boozy-mcfeely got suspended at the start of the season.
Haden - injuries. He's barely played, it's a lost season for him, and they won't rush him back, but try to give more game time to the kids under the guise of a decent excuse, not tanking the season.
Kruger - is the only one that has genuinely and without good reason regressed. It could equally be that last year was his career year and he's gone from an up year to a down year, and is just a 5-6 sack guy, as he was in his first year here.
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Mud, going into this year, Mingo was your coverage guy. So no, they're not all pass rushers. We had no pass rush last year (Kruger's luck sacks notwithstanding), so many thought we needed as pass rushing OLB. We got that in Orchard. Now Farmer is the scapegoat because too many of his backers are pass rushers? Ok...
All that said, let me once again bang the Aldon Smith drum.
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My statement was THIS year, drafted by Farmer or before, so let's stick with that...played worse: Mack, Thomas (penalties), Hawkins, Crowell, Gabriel, Haden, Kruger. Bottom line is that REgress trumps PROgress this year, & Pettine has thrown them under the bus as opposed to accepting the inadequacies of HIS system.
I'm not going to debate this with you. We are neither 100% right or wrong, so let's just agree to disagree. My opinion remains that Pettine has FAILED to take this Team forward.
Mike
Mack: injuries might be affecting that?
Thomas - penalties: he had 10 last season, 6 so far this, so he's on track for a better season penalty-wise
Hawkins: Not sure what's happened there, probably a change in OC did him in.
Gabriel: same. We're not getting the little guys open as much.
Crowell: no idea.
The above are all O players, and Pett has less to do with that than the D players, so it's quite possibly that the change in OC contributed as much as any thing else. Where Hawkins and Gabriel have gone down, from a combined 1,668 yards last year, Benjamin and Barnidge are already at almost 1,600 combined, so I'll call that at worst a push, and at best getting more out of them.
The others - Thomas, Mack & Crowell, and throw in Bitonio who has not been at the same level by all accounts - are all OL players, and Crowell whose game is a direct product of the OL. Speculation on my part, but I think this is down to a combination of a rookie OC, and *no* OL coach, after boozy-mcfeely got suspended at the start of the season.
Haden - injuries. He's barely played, it's a lost season for him, and they won't rush him back, but try to give more game time to the kids under the guise of a decent excuse, not tanking the season.
Kruger - is the only one that has genuinely and without good reason regressed. It could equally be that last year was his career year and he's gone from an up year to a down year, and is just a 5-6 sack guy, as he was in his first year here.
Kruger - is the only one that has genuinely and without good reason regressed. It could equally be that last year was his career year and he's gone from an up year to a down year, and is just a 5-6 sack guy, as he was in his first year here.
You and I have about the same perspective....
Mud, going into this year, Mingo was your coverage guy. So no, they're not all pass rushers. We had no pass rush last year (Kruger's luck sacks notwithstanding), so many thought we needed as pass rushing OLB. We got that in Orchard. Now Farmer is the scapegoat because too many of his backers are pass rushers? Ok...
All that said, let me once again bang the Aldon Smith drum.
Mingo was drafted as a pass rusher.....yes, we use him to cover and I have no issue there....BUT, many people have been complaining "because" we use him to cover and saying the coach is not using him right.........and the same with Armonty and Kruger and, now, Orchard....bitching because they have to cover.....so my point was "for those bitching about these guys covering, who IS supposed to cover???....and HOW is Pettine using these guys wrong when they are the only ones he has?????
And....yes,.....the sad part is we DID(or do) need an edge rusher.....even with these 4 "pass rushing specialists", we still have NO ONE who can get to the QB on his own......(and the complaint is that they are too busy covering to rush, apparently)....
Aldon Smith is suspended for year, so he's not helping anyone......And he may be a good player, but dont you think we have enough jerks(and drunks) on this team to last a lifetime???....sorry.....glad we passed.....
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I'm just saying, you seem to be somewhat complaining about Farmer bringing Orchard in, but we were widely viewed as needing an Orchard, so you can't really blame Farmer. Maybe I'm reading you wrong.
No, we have one drunk. Zero jerks as far as I know, unless you want to call the drunk that. More importantly though, as we've been discussing, we have no good OLBs. Smith is one. He played 8 or 9 games. I'd venture to guess if he started our first 8 or 9 games we'd have at least a couple more wins. He's THAT good and our guys are THAT bad. Furthermore, we'd get him back for our impending playoff push in the back half of next season. He was also, I'm assuming, cheap. Complete no brainer.
Then again, this is all assuming Pettine would actually play him, which we all know is speculative at best. Lol.
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Mud, those guys we drafted as pass rushers - Orchard, Mingo, Bryant (I think) - were all 4-3 DEs. As you know my football acumen isn't as high as others but I'm pretty sure that doesn't involve much in the way of dropping in to coverage. Pass rush and edge-set/run stuff, sure. We drafted Orchard who was a solid run defender and nation's leading pass rusher, and then drop him in to coverage?
I don't know the snap breakdown for him, but that seems like a waste of talent and trying to fit the players to the scheme, not the other way around. I'm more and more thinking we need to look at a 4-3 to get the most out of our edge rushers, but then where does that leave Shelton, a dedicated NT? Can he effectively play DT in a 4-3? I know Des Bryant can, he did it in Oakland, but what about Meder? Dylan Wynn looked decent in preseason as a guy who can play that position.
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Meder is probably better suited for a 4-3 as well. The only guy really positionless in a 3-4 to 4-3 move is the noseguard.
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Meder is probably better suited for a 4-3 as well. The only guy really positionless in a 3-4 to 4-3 move is the noseguard.
Meder is probably better suited for a 4-3 as well. The only guy really positionless in a 3-4 to 4-3 move is the noseguard.
That's where Meder's been playing unless I'm mistaken, backing up Shelton.
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Yes, but he's very undersized for it.
By the way, Jamie Meder: another Farmer accomplishment.
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Yes, but he's very undersized for it.
By the way, Jamie Meder: another Farmer accomplishment.
Yes, but he's very undersized for it.
By the way, Jamie Meder: another Farmer accomplishment.
While credit must be given for players like Meder, he's not exactly a super start that's had a big bearing on our season. I'd rather he get a few first round picks right than a few UDFAs. For example, Gabriel was a decent find at WR, but we could have taken OBJ instead of Gilbert, and found as much contribution as Gilbert from a UDFA.
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