Kruger Knows What You're Feeling Mario
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QBs are the reason for the examples you gave flugs. simple as that. things turned around for rivera once they got newton after building his defense.........
minnesota: bridgewater and petersen. oakland: carr and cooper arizone: really? do i have to say it?
the browns have yet to address the offense for playmakers as their #1 choices in the draft. i kinda think they wanted to build the lines and the backend of the D first. maybe, if haslam doesn't clean house, they might get that opportunity. if not, then everything is gone, once again cuz the new guy will want to reshuffle the deck and do it another way.
good luck with that.
QBs are the reason for the examples you gave flugs. simple as that. things turned around for rivera once they got newton after building his defense.........
minnesota: bridgewater and petersen. oakland: carr and cooper arizone: really? do i have to say it?
the browns have yet to address the offense for playmakers as their #1 choices in the draft. i kinda think they wanted to build the lines and the backend of the D first. maybe, if haslam doesn't clean house, they might get that opportunity. if not, then everything is gone, once again cuz the new guy will want to reshuffle the deck and do it another way.
good luck with that.
Like Mark said,Carolina wasn't winning when Newton first started football games there. It was a process. They didn't expect playoffs right away - they were sensible. Jax and Oakland started rookie QBs in 2014 so guess where both teams drafted in 2015? 3rd and 4th overall so that reminds me it's a process of growing pains.Drew Brees' 3rd year ended with the worst record in the NFL so SD drafted a QB first overall the next season. Rivers held out the length of training camp and Brees went 12-4 and to the playoffs and pro bowl.I agree with you about the QB but many think that's instant. QB hasn't been our problem in 2015 - keeping opponents from scoring has made it hard to beat teams for the team that was ranked 32nd in points allowed.
Minnesota went to the playoffs with Christian Ponder because AP put that team on his back.Today, they have a better defense. Go listen to Greg Cosellabout Bridgewater's performance because he'll smmarize it way better than I can since he's seen a lot more of him.
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And this thread was stared on the premise that Williams and Kruger cover too much...
Ive shown the stats prove otherwise with "kruger"......and Ive shown the Coaching staff has adjusted and given Kruger his wish to "just rush" for the last 9 weeks....
So.....since the whole thread is about that....and Ive shown he doesnt cover hardly at all any more.....and watching the game replays I can see he's NEVER double covered.....why can he NOT get to the QB.....
Its not as if our coaches are out there holding him back in those "one on one" situations.....(which is the reason we tried to get rid of him and also the reason there were no takers)
But...Im sure....as with this entire thread.....THAT will all be ignored.....
Admit it Fluges....you entire argument is our W-L record(which is fine)....no problem with hating losing.....but PLEASE stop making up scheme problems that dont exist or blaming the coaches for every player that doesnt meet expectations...
And this thread was stared on the premise that Williams and Kruger cover too much...
Ive shown the stats prove otherwise with "kruger"......and Ive shown the Coaching staff has adjusted and given Kruger his wish to "just rush" for the last 9 weeks....
So.....since the whole thread is about that....and Ive shown he doesnt cover hardly at all any more.....and watching the game replays I can see he's NEVER double covered.....why can he NOT get to the QB.....
Its not as if our coaches are out there holding him back in those "one on one" situations.....(which is the reason we tried to get rid of him and also the reason there were no takers)
But...Im sure....as with this entire thread.....THAT will all be ignored.....
Admit it Fluges....you entire argument is our W-L record(which is fine)....no problem with hating losing.....but PLEASE stop making up scheme problems that dont exist or blaming the coaches for every player that doesnt meet expectations...
What does ranking 32nd in points allowed heading into week 13 tell us about Pettine's defense keeping us competitive does it lend credence to only 3 wins?
How about how many soph slumps in the defensive system we're looking at?
How about all of our last 5 losses showing us giving up over 30 pointsin each outing?
How about how many defensive categories we ranked near the bottom in heading into week 13?
You think it's just the record?
How many different ways could Gruden say something is seriously wrong with this defense?
On top of all that, who here has the warm fuzzies for Tabor's STs?
Okay, at the onset of last week's game Brady Quinn announced our running game was now ranked 32nd but thankfully SF woke up a hibernating bear.
Those be my concerns.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
so you made my point. "it's a process".
i doubt firing everyone after 1-2 years is in the definition of the word 'process'.
anyhoo, i'm off to a xmas party. enjoy your sunday and......
LET'S GO BROWNS!!
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And this thread was stared on the premise that Williams and Kruger cover too much...
Ive shown the stats prove otherwise with "kruger"......and Ive shown the Coaching staff has adjusted and given Kruger his wish to "just rush" for the last 9 weeks....
So.....since the whole thread is about that....and Ive shown he doesnt cover hardly at all any more.....and watching the game replays I can see he's NEVER double covered.....why can he NOT get to the QB.....
Its not as if our coaches are out there holding him back in those "one on one" situations.....(which is the reason we tried to get rid of him and also the reason there were no takers)
But...Im sure....as with this entire thread.....THAT will all be ignored.....
Admit it Fluges....you entire argument is our W-L record(which is fine)....no problem with hating losing.....but PLEASE stop making up scheme problems that dont exist or blaming the coaches for every player that doesnt meet expectations...
What does ranking 32nd in points allowed heading into week 13 tell us about Pettine's defense keeping us competitive does it lend credence to only 3 wins?
How about how many soph slumps in the defensive system we're looking at?
How about all of our last 5 losses showing us giving up over 30 pointsin each outing?
How about how many defensive categories we ranked near the bottom in heading into week 13?
You think it's just the record?
How many different ways could Gruden say something is seriously wrong with this defense?
On top of all that, who here has the warm fuzzies for Tabor's STs?
Okay, at the onset of last week's game Brady Quinn announced our running game was now ranked 32nd but thankfully SF woke up a hibernating bear.
Those be my concerns.
Those be my concerns.
Then why start a thread bitching about Kruger.......and Rexy.....and Williams....
Then ignore every single fact presented.
Honestly, Flugel.....how can I have a "football" discussion, when you ignore the "football" part....
Have fun with your pointless rants, like Mic, Im out.
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Well....you know Im happy to take this one on......
Not sure why you're trying to lay Buffalo and Rexy's problems on Pettines back, considering Buffalo set their sack record at 57 with Pettine and NOW they have 19....heck of a drop off.....
1) This is an old article that keeps making the rounds. Id first point out that is is a misnomer to say Pettine and Rexy have the same D's. Rexy is running a 4-3 in Buffalo, while Pettine ran his hybrid multi front 3-4 there and here...
2) Williams is complalining about frequently having to drop into coverage. Id point out the he is a 4-3 DE and Kruger is a 3-4 OLB.....and there IS a difference....(plus, Wiiliams is a heck of a pass rusher and Kruger isnt).....
- 2013(under Pettine)....Williams dropped into coverage 7 times the WHOLE season....
- 2014............................Williams dropped into coverage 13 times the whole season....
- 2015............................Williams dropped into coverage 20 time so far....
So.....CLEARLY.....Rexy is having him cover WAY more then Pettine did, but still only 20 times(just over once a game)(whiny)
Kruger has the EXACT same #'s he had in 2013 & 2012....so it's not like he's fallen off. He's had one good season ever(in terms of sacks at least) and that was last year under Pettine.....the other 6 years he's played, he's basically sucked......and, LAST YEAR, he only had 11 sacks and nothing else.....terrible against the run......
NOW.....lets look at Krugers coverage(Ive posted this several times, but it seems not to be sinking in)......
- 2012(Baltimore)....Kruger dropped into coverage 97 times or 6.0 times per game....
- 2013(Chud)...........Kruger dropped into coverage 109 times or 6.8 times per game....
- 2014(Pettine)........Kruger dropped into coverage 65 times or 4.0 times per game...
- 2015(Pettine)........Kruger dropped into coverage 58 times or 4.4 times per game...
And the facts dont lie.....Kruger is covering LESS now than he ever has.....and whats happening in Buffalo is NOT what happened in Buffalo when Pettine was there.....Plain and simple....
Now,.....Please.....Stop making up stories Cal.....I thought you were more objective than that.....
What changed from last year???.........
1) Sheard isnt pushing the other side, which got Kruger 4 sacks last year......
2) He;s getting blocked out. Last year 2 were unblocked sacks.....(there's 6)....
3) Our DB's are not defending well, meaning the opposing QB's are not holding the ball....meaning not enough time for Kruger to get er done.....
4) Finally.....his snaps have now been cut drastically....WHY???.....cause Orchard and Armonty are getting to the QB at 2 and 3 times the efficiency that Kruger is....and they can do it within this system, while Kruger apparently cannot ....
OK, I answered your question "what has changed?"....so my question is....WHAT CHANGES when Armonty goes in ????
Buffalo is not Cleveland....Rexy is not Pettine.....A 4-3 DE is not a 3-4 OLB....and Paul Kruger aint no Mario Williams....
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Now,.....Please.....Stop making up stories Cal.....I thought you were more objective than that..... Mudflap
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I am not objective about our Browns. But you are claiming some kind of absolute victory about something...
with your posting of the number of times Kruger dropped back into coverage.
btw, I'm not making up stories, I am just calling out what I'm seeing, with the conclusions
as best as I can figure them. I'm not observing what you are so biased about.
And what is your point about Armonty and Orchard? They are quick, explosive, and move laterally
very, very quickly - of course they would be in pass coverage.
But Kruger isn't a bum because he isn't explosive - he's slower feetwise... Orchard used to play soccer.
he is very, very quick - he can really move.
So, Mudsies, with injuries to the secondary, Kruger NEEDS to drop back into coverage less.
Offenses can get rid of the ball way too quickly for Kruger to be able to drop back and cover and make
a difference. THAT is the point. Your posties of timssies of drop backs ... a lot is involved, and your
claim of YOUR "objectivity"....is bullcrapsies.
I say again - Pettine admitted that the Browns dline coach changed their pass rush the last game,
and the players made hay. Same freaking players, same Kruger. It was the freaking COACHES that
had to change what they were doing. The problem is/was with the COACHES on the defense, (and injuries
to the secondary, which makes the changes to the pass rush scheme all the more criitical.)
I'm not against keeping Pettine - but they have been going backasswards, Mud, and if they won't make
changes to "right the ship"....the ship is hopelessly going to sink. It would be far, far, far more preferable,
and constructive, for Pettine and his coaches to change things and fix things.
The whole point of thinking maybe they have to go.... is because the trend so far, except for the last game
vs the niners.... is that the coaches won't admit they have a problem - they just think the "players have to execute better".
So, the players executed better !!! But they executed better because they made changes - per Pettine - who gave
credit to the dline coach for making them. Same players, Mud. Bashing Kruger just makes you miss the point.
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Those be my concerns.
Then why start a thread bitching about Kruger.......and Rexy.....and Williams....
Then ignore every single fact presented.
Honestly, Flugel.....how can I have a "football" discussion, when you ignore the "football" part....
Have fun with your pointless rants, like Mic, Im out.
Then why start a thread bitching about Kruger.......and Rexy.....and Williams....
Then ignore every single fact presented.
Honestly, Flugel.....how can I have a "football" discussion, when you ignore the "football" part....
Have fun with your pointless rants, like Mic, Im out.
I haven't ignored your football parts - I just don't agree with you. DEs don't cover people downfield out of a 3 point stance so I disagree that Buffalo runs a 4-3. I even gave you the names of their 4 LBers. All you did was look a depth chart online that listed Mario as a DE and drew your conclusion. How often have you seen a guy in a 3 point stance covering people downfield or finding reason to complain about doing so?
What facts are you presenting about a defensive scheme working in Cleveland that I'm ignoring? Examples?
Who's player faster and more instinctive this year? Sounds like you ought to have a bunch of these....
Give me examples of great tackling, shedding blocks and swarming opposing running games at the point of attack.
Give me examples of us sacking/hurrying opposing passers better than we did in 2014.
Give me a reason why I should be happy that we allowed over 30 points in our last 5 consecutive losses.
We're debating progress vrs regression.
What players in the second year of Pettine's defense are better than they were last year?
Robertson?
Gipson?
Haden prior to injury?
K'Wuan Williams?
Whitner?
Kruger?
Kirksey?
Hughes?
Desir?
Poyer?
D. Bryant?
Understanding all that, I also mentioned where we ranked statistically in many areas defensively as well as point allowed.
I'm sorry but nothing is reflecting this defense is going in the right direction prior to today's game.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Underachieving pro-athletes deflecting blame
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Then why start a thread bitching about Kruger.......and Rexy.....and Williams....
Then ignore every single fact presented.
Honestly, Flugel.....how can I have a "football" discussion, when you ignore the "football" part....
Have fun with your pointless rants, like Mic, Im out.
I haven't ignored your football parts - I just don't agree with you. DEs don't cover people downfield out of a 3 point stance so I disagree that Buffalo runs a 4-3. I even gave you the names of their 4 LBers. All you did was look a depth chart online that listed Mario as a DE and drew your conclusion. How often have you seen a guy in a 3 point stance covering people downfield or finding reason to complain about doing so?
What facts are you presenting about a defensive scheme working in Cleveland that I'm ignoring? Examples?
Who's player faster and more instinctive this year? Sounds like you ought to have a bunch of these....
Give me examples of great tackling, shedding blocks and swarming opposing running games at the point of attack.
Give me examples of us sacking/hurrying opposing passers better than we did in 2014.
Give me a reason why I should be happy that we allowed over 30 points in our last 5 consecutive losses.
We're debating progress vrs regression.
What players in the second year of Pettine's defense are better than they were last year?
Robertson?
Gipson?
Haden prior to injury?
K'Wuan Williams?
Whitner?
Kruger?
Kirksey?
Hughes?
Desir?
Poyer?
D. Bryant?
Understanding all that, I also mentioned where we ranked statistically in many areas defensively as well as point allowed.
I'm sorry but nothing is reflecting this defense is going in the right direction prior to today's game.
I haven't ignored your football parts - I just don't agree with you. DEs don't cover people downfield out of a 3 point stance so I disagree that Buffalo runs a 4-3. I even gave you the names of their 4 LBers. All you did was look a depth chart online that listed Mario as a DE and drew your conclusion. How often have you seen a guy in a 3 point stance covering people downfield or finding reason to complain about doing so?
"The Bills’ defense will undergo a significant change under Ryan and new defensive coordinator Dennis Thurman. Schwartz employed a base 4-3 look that called for Williams and Hughes to function almost exclusively as linemen. Ryan uses a 3-4 base that calls for Williams and Hughes to work as outside linebackers, although there also will be situations where they play on the line and are part of a good deal of mixing and matching that goes on within one of the more multiple schemes in the league.
Williams got a good taste of this before with the Bills, in 2013, when Ryan coaching disciple Mike Pettine ran the defense. And Williams excelled then as well, finishing with 13 sacks and being selected to the Pro Bowl (although the Bills did struggle far more against the run than they did last year).
Still, Williams appeared to be more comfortable and natural in a three-point stance and doing the things that a lineman does as opposed to dropping into coverage more frequently as an outside linebacker is asked to do."
http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/05/23/mario-williams-preparing-for-another-adjustment/
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Tour and Mud think they are the guru's of football, while neither one is. Don't disagree with them, lol.
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Tour and Mud think they are the guru's of football, while neither one is. Don't disagree with them, lol.
Tour and Mud think they are the guru's of football, while neither one is. Don't disagree with them, lol.
and you've become the trump of football.
blowhardbrownsfan.
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Tour and Mud think they are the guru's of football, while neither one is. Don't disagree with them, lol.
and you've become the trump of football.
blowhardbrownsfan.
-
I haven't ignored your football parts - I just don't agree with you. DEs don't cover people downfield out of a 3 point stance so I disagree that Buffalo runs a 4-3. I even gave you the names of their 4 LBers. All you did was look a depth chart online that listed Mario as a DE and drew your conclusion. How often have you seen a guy in a 3 point stance covering people downfield or finding reason to complain about doing so?
"The Bills’ defense will undergo a significant change under Ryan and new defensive coordinator Dennis Thurman. Schwartz employed a base 4-3 look that called for Williams and Hughes to function almost exclusively as linemen. Ryan uses a 3-4 base that calls for Williams and Hughes to work as outside linebackers, although there also will be situations where they play on the line and are part of a good deal of mixing and matching that goes on within one of the more multiple schemes in the league.
Williams got a good taste of this before with the Bills, in 2013, when Ryan coaching disciple Mike Pettine ran the defense. And Williams excelled then as well, finishing with 13 sacks and being selected to the Pro Bowl (although the Bills did struggle far more against the run than they did last year).
Still, Williams appeared to be more comfortable and natural in a three-point stance and doing the things that a lineman does as opposed to dropping into coverage more frequently as an outside linebacker is asked to do."
http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/05/23/mario-williams-preparing-for-another-adjustment/
"The Bills’ defense will undergo a significant change under Ryan and new defensive coordinator Dennis Thurman. Schwartz employed a base 4-3 look that called for Williams and Hughes to function almost exclusively as linemen. Ryan uses a 3-4 base that calls for Williams and Hughes to work as outside linebackers, although there also will be situations where they play on the line and are part of a good deal of mixing and matching that goes on within one of the more multiple schemes in the league.
Williams got a good taste of this before with the Bills, in 2013, when Ryan coaching disciple Mike Pettine ran the defense. And Williams excelled then as well, finishing with 13 sacks and being selected to the Pro Bowl (although the Bills did struggle far more against the run than they did last year).
Still, Williams appeared to be more comfortable and natural in a three-point stance and doing the things that a lineman does as opposed to dropping into coverage more frequently as an outside linebacker is asked to do."
http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/05/23/mario-williams-preparing-for-another-adjustment/
But both of you are dismissing what NFL Head Coach first hired him to run HIS defense. Hence, I've always mentioned we have Rex Ryan's defense with Pettine Jr's wrinkles and Pettine Sr's gray hairs. Thurman varying a front for Ryan is also a wrinkle while we cover the pass just like Buffalo in 2015.
Neither Rex or Pett have 2105 defenses that have exceeded disappointment but I will take note again there's a hybrid front variation going on. Now back to your enormous list of excuses and why 3-16 football is everybody's fault but Pettine's including the popcorn vendors.
I never did get a list of players in their 2nd seasons in Pettine's defense showing improvement. You're too busy working your tail off about 1 hybrid front variation rather than understanding why there's a bigger picture disagreement about this defense. I've also asked for examples I never received in this discussion so I reminded why our stats and points allowed were reflecting our record. I see why you refrain from looking at how many points we allowed in our last 6 losses - because giving up over 30 points a game that frequently isn't going to win you a lot of matchups.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Tour's quote supported your position, Flugs.
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I don't know why people don't understand this. If we fire Pettine this franchise goes into the black hole of shit football play cause not only will we not get good coaches, the only players we're gonna get are lower tier players trying to make a name or older players no one else wants to give that last contract to. This will be shit. Yes, more shit than it already is if that's conceivable. That comment from Bosa the other week is imo the beginning of a list of talented players that will not just salt the org but also the city so that it makes 100% sure no one here will want anything to do with them. Does the word pariah cover this?
You think we have good coaching going on? Look at the numbers, look at the trend, look at the only teams we've beaten.
I heard the same stuff a few years and then I read and heard Bruce Arians say he was disappointed we didn't think he was worthy of an interview. Where's Arizona heading this year? Does that reflect a good group of coaches with players buying into their philosophy and teachings?
You think we have good coaching going on? Look at the numbers, look at the trend, look at the only teams we've beaten.
I heard the same stuff a few years and then I read and heard Bruce Arians say he was disappointed we didn't think he was worthy of an interview. Where's Arizona heading this year? Does that reflect a good group of coaches with players buying into their philosophy and teachings?
I"m not sure what kind of coachng we have. But for better or worse we all "should" have known that when they fired Chud after 1 year and no one ws hopping into our laps, that this was gonna be a project with the next coach. That simple. If we want to be begging every year for the next CFL "up and coming" genius.....sure lets get rid of pet
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I'm tired of seeing Kruger lose contain on a QB and have the QB not even sprinting to get away from him.
Seriously, not even Kaepernick, Wilson or Newton, guys like Joe Flacco and Andy Dalton are just strolling away from him on a rollout. He has no closing speed.
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It's his angles, they suck. He's lost too much leverage going around the corner. Now yesterday at least in the 1st quarter, I saw him making Wilson get rid of the ball quick. He was finally utilizing a power rip instead of this kick step followed by a slap and swim that progressed beyond aggravating probably by the end of 2013.
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"The Bills’ defense will undergo a significant change under Ryan and new defensive coordinator Dennis Thurman. Schwartz employed a base 4-3 look that called for Williams and Hughes to function almost exclusively as linemen. Ryan uses a 3-4 base that calls for Williams and Hughes to work as outside linebackers, although there also will be situations where they play on the line and are part of a good deal of mixing and matching that goes on within one of the more multiple schemes in the league.
Williams got a good taste of this before with the Bills, in 2013, when Ryan coaching disciple Mike Pettine ran the defense. And Williams excelled then as well, finishing with 13 sacks and being selected to the Pro Bowl (although the Bills did struggle far more against the run than they did last year).
Still, Williams appeared to be more comfortable and natural in a three-point stance and doing the things that a lineman does as opposed to dropping into coverage more frequently as an outside linebacker is asked to do."
http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/05/23/mario-williams-preparing-for-another-adjustment/
But both of you are dismissing what NFL Head Coach first hired him to run HIS defense. Hence, I've always mentioned we have Rex Ryan's defense with Pettine Jr's wrinkles and Pettine Sr's gray hairs. Thurman varying a front for Ryan is also a wrinkle while we cover the pass just like Buffalo in 2015.
Neither Rex or Pett have 2105 defenses that have exceeded disappointment but I will take note again there's a hybrid front variation going on. Now back to your enormous list of excuses and why 3-16 football is everybody's fault but Pettine's including the popcorn vendors.
I never did get a list of players in their 2nd seasons in Pettine's defense showing improvement. You're too busy working your tail off about 1 hybrid front variation rather than understanding why there's a bigger picture disagreement about this defense. I've also asked for examples I never received in this discussion so I reminded why our stats and points allowed were reflecting our record. I see why you refrain from looking at how many points we allowed in our last 6 losses - because giving up over 30 points a game that frequently isn't going to win you a lot of matchups.
But both of you are dismissing what NFL Head Coach first hired him to run HIS defense. Hence, I've always mentioned we have Rex Ryan's defense with Pettine Jr's wrinkles and Pettine Sr's gray hairs. Thurman varying a front for Ryan is also a wrinkle while we cover the pass just like Buffalo in 2015.
Neither Rex or Pett have 2105 defenses that have exceeded disappointment but I will take note again there's a hybrid front variation going on. Now back to your enormous list of excuses and why 3-16 football is everybody's fault but Pettine's including the popcorn vendors.
I never did get a list of players in their 2nd seasons in Pettine's defense showing improvement.
First, Mud addressed the improved list a week or so ago. It also listed players who have improved this season and players who improved under Pet last year, but have either failed to sustain or build upon their 2014 showing... and why. It was some really good work... you should find it... read it...
Second, are you claiming that our 2015 defense is no different from the one Ryan ran in Baltimore when Pet was an assistant?
Tour's quote supported your position, Flugs.
Pray tell how, since the article was about standing Williams up an increased percentage of the time.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Well, Flug is arguing Rex runs a 3-4. Your article states Rex runs a 3-4. I'm pretty sure Flug's been trying to make the case that Mario's been standing up a lot.
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I see and stand corrected... but "a lot", as Mud pointed out, was 20 times through week 14... far more than Mario under Pet in 2013.
I think the point I was trying to make was the intent in BUF was to run a 3-4, but Mario has been used more as a DE... same as Kruger.
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