Farmer and Pettine both fired. Official
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How you take this to be a 'good' offense is beyond me.
The defense has sucked this year. But for much of the season so has the offense.
Maybe you have limited interpretive skills, I dunno.....Ill explain for you....my point was that the offense performed better than the defense, and that was opposite of the pre-season expectation.....
hence.... "over achieving" vs "under performing" ......get it now?
Maybe you have limited interpretive skills, I dunno.....Ill explain for you....my point was that the offense performed better than the defense, and that was opposite of the pre-season expectation.....
hence.... "over achieving" vs "under performing" ......get it now?
That reasoning doesn't work very well. Our rushing offense was expected to be a top 10 unit this year, we were ranked near last in the NFL. Our passing offense wasn't expected to be better than last year... and it really didn't get any better or worse. Just cause you have a TE who comes damn near out of no where, it doesn't mean that our offense shouldn't be touched. Our RB, WR, and OL units got worse.Should we really keep those coaches?
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I wouldn't hate hue jackson
I wouldn't hate hue jackson
Me either, that's for sure
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Last weeks buzz was Farmer......this weeks buzz is Pettine.......
And, if we clean house AGAIN.....the funny part is that the person most obviously fucking up....over and over.....is Haslem.
This blurb, from the article above, says it all......
"Also, he is the coach of a 3-win team and working for an organization that specializes in firing its head coach every two years or so. It's dumb to give anyone less than three years as a head coach, but Cleveland canning Pettine wouldn't be surprising at this point"
Well said Mud. So Jimmy of all people should understand the rookie mistakes thing should deserve a chance to allow the rookie to overcome the mistakes. We can STILL hire former Baltimore Defensive Coach now serving as Irsay's scapegoat (Chuck Pagano) to join Pettine's staff as our DC here.
The biggest evil here has to be a personnel guy that doesn't even know who Khalil Mack is any more than he knows who Justin Gilbert is. He's had 4 first round picks in just 2 years with only 1 of them looking like he can eventually justify the draft value.
Here's some things I'd like to know about Farmer since he's responsible for our personnel:
Who does he have working for him in the scouting dept?
How much does he weigh their time, energy and research?
Does he have enough scouts since 7 of 12 darftees came from 1 conference?
Does he know the difference between best football ahead vrs best football in the rear view mirror (ie; Dwayne Bowe)?
The biggest evil here has to be a personnel guy that doesn't even know who Khalil Mack is any more than he knows who Justin Gilbert is. He's had 4 first round picks in just 2 years with only 1 of them looking like he can eventually justify the draft value.
My memory has him dumping most of the scouts from the 2014 draft, who were all hold overs from Banner Lombardi
Here's some things I'd like to know about Farmer since he's responsible for our personnel:
Who does he have working for him in the scouting dept?
I have no clue who they are, but as stated above, they are "now" his guys.
How much does he weigh their time, energy and research?
No idea who plays what role
Does he have enough scouts since 7 of 12 darftees came from 1 conference?
That was pretty interesting there....makes you feel like too much time in one place and not enough time in some others...
Does he know the difference between best football ahead vrs best football in the rear view mirror (ie; Dwayne Bowe)?
Um Dwayne Bowe?.......and, though some are decent players, our Free Agent acquisitions have been McCown, Bowe, Austin, Dansby, Tramon, Starks, Whitner, Hartline, Burleson.....ALL of whom are past their best years.....(no "star FA's" yet)
Plus we tap second string guys and act like we just scored a major coup by signing up some stars......Hawkins?....Tate?...Kruger?....Housler?....
And....Ill add.....no good FA's at areas of really strong need......some of our best signing have been closer to lateral moves, because they replaced some already decent players, instead of "bad" players......Id admit that Whitner, Dansby, Starks, Tramon were all slight upgrades ....but not huge steps up from Ward, Jackson, Ruben or Skrine......
So, Id summarize Farmers FA deals as.....short lateral baby steps being taken by older men.....plus, a bunch of complete busts
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Wolf is promising, wouldn't have been promoted by the Packers if that wasn't the case. Expect an out clause in the contract though, he's going to head back to GB once Thompson retires in 2018 if he does well.
Interesting. Here's a little devil's advocate: If he leaves his father's shadow and rights this ship - that'll be the closest thing anyone has ever seen to walking on water. Why would he hurry back to the shadow of success before him in lieu of the path he's earned elsewhere?
Interesting. Here's a little devil's advocate: If he leaves his father's shadow and rights this ship - that'll be the closest thing anyone has ever seen to walking on water. Why would he hurry back to the shadow of success before him in lieu of the path he's earned elsewhere?
That's a great point, I'd say it depends on his motivation. You can be the head of arguably the greatest NFL franchise, with no ownership to answer to and a team president who will give you plenty of time to succeed. You have final say on the head coach and roster and the chance to lead a new era in Packer football since Rodgers will be close to retirement. You can continue your father's legacy with the team that gave you started your career with or stick with the team you've build in Cleveland.
Of course he'll be competing for the job with John Schneider and John Dorsey so there's no certainty he'll be getting it.
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I'm not sure what Bruce Arians has to do with it and I'm not demanding the coach fire all his defensive assistance. I'm just saying if the defense sucks having had some experience at the position, should have gone to his mate and said hey let's do this or let's not do that.
And yes it would be nice to have Khalil Mack and yes we missed on Gilbert. But I don't remember anybody around the draft saying wait wait wait Gilbert is a train wreck!
Still, no matter what, it doesn't have much to do with the quarterback position.
And one more time fine another year. The excuses are going to be harder to listen to in 2016.
WSS
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The biggest evil here has to be a personnel guy that doesn't even know who Khalil Mack is any more than he knows who Justin Gilbert is. He's had 4 first round picks in just 2 years with only 1 of them looking like he can eventually justify the draft value.
My memory has him dumping most of the scouts from the 2014 draft, who were all hold overs from Banner Lombardi
Here's some things I'd like to know about Farmer since he's responsible for our personnel:
Who does he have working for him in the scouting dept?
I have no clue who they are, but as stated above, they are "now" his guys.
How much does he weigh their time, energy and research?
No idea who plays what role
Does he have enough scouts since 7 of 12 darftees came from 1 conference?
That was pretty interesting there....makes you feel like too much time in one place and not enough time in some others...
Does he know the difference between best football ahead vrs best football in the rear view mirror (ie; Dwayne Bowe)?
Um Dwayne Bowe?.......and, though some are decent players, our Free Agent acquisitions have been McCown, Bowe, Austin, Dansby, Tramon, Starks, Whitner, Hartline, Burleson.....ALL of whom are past their best years.....(no "star FA's" yet)
Plus we tap second string guys and act like we just scored a major coup by signing up some stars......Hawkins?....Tate?...Kruger?....Housler?....
And....Ill add.....no good FA's at areas of really strong need......some of our best signing have been closer to lateral moves, because they replaced some already decent players, instead of "bad" players......Id admit that Whitner, Dansby, Starks, Tramon were all slight upgrades ....but not huge steps up from Ward, Jackson, Ruben or Skrine......
So, Id summarize Farmers FA deals as.....short lateral baby steps being taken by older men.....plus, a bunch of complete busts
The biggest evil here has to be a personnel guy that doesn't even know who Khalil Mack is any more than he knows who Justin Gilbert is. He's had 4 first round picks in just 2 years with only 1 of them looking like he can eventually justify the draft value.
My memory has him dumping most of the scouts from the 2014 draft, who were all hold overs from Banner Lombardi
Here's some things I'd like to know about Farmer since he's responsible for our personnel:
Who does he have working for him in the scouting dept?
I have no clue who they are, but as stated above, they are "now" his guys.
How much does he weigh their time, energy and research?
No idea who plays what role
Does he have enough scouts since 7 of 12 darftees came from 1 conference?
That was pretty interesting there....makes you feel like too much time in one place and not enough time in some others...
Does he know the difference between best football ahead vrs best football in the rear view mirror (ie; Dwayne Bowe)?
Um Dwayne Bowe?.......and, though some are decent players, our Free Agent acquisitions have been McCown, Bowe, Austin, Dansby, Tramon, Starks, Whitner, Hartline, Burleson.....ALL of whom are past their best years.....(no "star FA's" yet)
Plus we tap second string guys and act like we just scored a major coup by signing up some stars......Hawkins?....Tate?...Kruger?....Housler?....
And....Ill add.....no good FA's at areas of really strong need......some of our best signing have been closer to lateral moves, because they replaced some already decent players, instead of "bad" players......Id admit that Whitner, Dansby, Starks, Tramon were all slight upgrades ....but not huge steps up from Ward, Jackson, Ruben or Skrine......
So, Id summarize Farmers FA deals as.....short lateral baby steps being taken by older men.....plus, a bunch of complete busts
Thanks Mud!
The hard thing about Skrine if anyone can see it like Travis Benjamin is you spend all this time committing patience, training and growing pains to hopefully celebrating the return value on your investment. Skrine runs 4.3s and is a great open field tackler that I'm guessing we could have kept considering how much green went toilet bound on Bowe knows paid vacation. This guy even tackled well despite playing through a slight shoulder separation. Bad move to let a team that didn't even need him take him away. He wasn't perfect and he had some tendencies to grab when he got gassed but experience, tackling and know-how wouldn't have been the issue we're seeing from other corners filling in here this year.
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Then again if Jimmy's picking the talent and forcing Ray Farmer to be the fall guy why would he get fired?
WSS
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I'd vote fire both and keep flip. hire an experienced coach. Hire a kickass GM.
I like Pet, but i don't feel like he's the answer. I do feel like he tried his best while he was here, but it just wasn't good enough. Maybe it was the players he had, and farmer is to blame too. But another 3-13 season and I think we'd be up in pitchforks as fans.
Ask yourself this, if any other organization in the NFL had a record like this, would the keep the head coach unless they think he could be the answer.
So to you all, do you think Pet is the answer? Obviously farmer isn't. Keeping the same O-Coordinator would be great for offense although a new HC would change around a lot.
I don't hate Pet, but i feel like i've seen enough of him.
I tried to like farmer, but he just fucked up too much shit.
I really tried to like Johnny, defended him, but over and over again he's just showed us that he's an entitled little prick that only cares about himself. He never really SHOWed us anything. Fuck it I really wanted Mack and Garrapolo in that draft.
I don't care what the kid does at home, but the four loko video, i mean why would he post that up public? As a big fuck you to pet and the organization? I thought they specifically told him not to do that.
I'm not so sure Johnny could ever be a leader of men at all, and while i appreciate Pettine's integrity, I'm not positive he could lead these men to great victory either.
I'd vote fire both and keep flip. hire an experienced coach. Hire a kickass GM.
You don't keep an OC as the OC. You don't do that to HC candidates. You hire an HC and let him decide who, if anyone, he holds over from the prior regime.
Just pay the money
It isn't our money, and the team is worth Almost DOUBLE what Jimmy paid for it.
Easier to just offer one of your prized HC candidates a piece of the team...
The problem is that despite the bluster and the pontifications on this board we really don't know anything about the personal dynamics among the three key players.
Agree, but would be shocked if Jimmah did not already have a good sense of this. It is the one thing he should definitely have a feel for when it comes to his direct reports. It has to have been a major piece of the retreat effort in early 2015.
My Bottom Line: I fire Farmer...
As pointed out above ultimately the talent decisions are his. I hated his weird, mid-year presser and all of its movie references. I hated his portrayal of every personnel decision being mutually agreed by all. That's not owning his job... his responsibility. Consensus building is not what earns him his paycheck.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
"I hated his portrayal of every personnel decision being mutually agreed by all. That's not owning his job... his responsibility."
There it is for me in a nutshell Tour. I could not stand that mealy mouthed comment trying to spread the blame around for what belongs squarely on his plate as GM.
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Time to bring in another coach who never had a HC in the NFL before give him 2 swasons and do it again and again and again. What a fucking joke
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Plus isn't it up to the general manager who the head coach is?
At least traditionally?
WSS
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I really think Pettine will be back next year, I think there was a lot going on behind the curtains we do not know about and shit is going to hit the fan in the off season, But I do believe Pettine is safe. I may be wrong but our whole front office and team is just about to come unglued ;and we will just have to sit and watch
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See....I dont even get these rumors......(and what does "extensive work" mean????).....
The Browns are described as having an over achieving offense, with Flip being one of the season bright spots....
And a team with an under performing defense.....which is the primary reason this team isnt winning.....
So.....good offense - bad defense.....and the rumor is that we want to hire an offensive coach to fix it?....
Ok......
See....I dont even get these rumors......(and what does "extensive work" mean????).....
The Browns are described as having an over achieving offense, with Flip being one of the season bright spots....
And a team with an under performing defense.....which is the primary reason this team isnt winning.....
So.....good offense - bad defense.....and the rumor is that we want to hire an offensive coach to fix it?....
Ok......
I think we just need a good HEAD COACH....regardless if he is offense or defense oriented.
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No, some of this board mistakenly describes the browns as having a good offense. In about half their games this year they have scored a ridiculously low number of non garbage time points.
in the new York, Denver, st Louis, cincinatti, Pittsburgh, Kansas city, and seattle game the offense blew goats....that's almost half the games right there. In a few other games(like Arizona) the offense was dreadful for 60% of the game. I'm including the Denver game because the offense only scored 17 pts in a game where we had an ot possession *and* were set up multiple times inside the 50. That's a very poor points total given the game situations that took place.
How you take this to be a 'good' offense is beyond me.
The defense has sucked this year. But for much of the season so has the offense.
No, some of this board mistakenly describes the browns as having a good offense. In about half their games this year they have scored a ridiculously low number of non garbage time points.
in the new York, Denver, st Louis, cincinatti, Pittsburgh, Kansas city, and seattle game the offense blew goats....that's almost half the games right there. In a few other games(like Arizona) the offense was dreadful for 60% of the game. I'm including the Denver game because the offense only scored 17 pts in a game where we had an ot possession *and* were set up multiple times inside the 50. That's a very poor points total given the game situations that took place.
How you take this to be a 'good' offense is beyond me.
The defense has sucked this year. But for much of the season so has the offense.
I guess it is the theory of relativity. In relation to our defense our offense seemed good....not in relation to other offenses around the league.
(That said....the defense played well enough to win vs San Fran....and vs. KC....but the offense only showed up on one of those games)
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Wolf is promising, wouldn't have been promoted by the Packers if that wasn't the case. Expect an out clause in the contract though, he's going to head back to GB once Thompson retires in 2018 if he does well.
Wolf is promising, wouldn't have been promoted by the Packers if that wasn't the case. Expect an out clause in the contract though, he's going to head back to GB once Thompson retires in 2018 if he does well.
Why would he do that if he was really having success here? The tradition of the Browns is nearly as great as the traditions of the Packers.....plus....it is Green Bay. Nice small town. Nothing against it. Like it very much.
But there is no reason to go back there if you are really hitting home runs in Cleveland....which has about an equal rabid fan base.
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Cleaning house seems plausible now: Get rid of Farmer/Pettine/JMZ. Start over.
What? You say the Browns can't do that? It is a sign of instability....just another "here we go again".
Well....we know the guys we have are shitty......so are we supposed to stick with shitty just for the sake of stability?
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Last weeks buzz was Farmer......this weeks buzz is Pettine.......
And, if we clean house AGAIN.....the funny part is that the person most obviously fucking up....over and over.....is Haslem.
This blurb, from the article above, says it all......
"Also, he is the coach of a 3-win team and working for an organization that specializes in firing its head coach every two years or so. It's dumb to give anyone less than three years as a head coach, but Cleveland canning Pettine wouldn't be surprising at this point"
Well said Mud. So Jimmy of all people should understand the rookie mistakes thing should deserve a chance to allow the rookie to overcome the mistakes. We can STILL hire former Baltimore Defensive Coach now serving as Irsay's scapegoat (Chuck Pagano) to join Pettine's staff as our DC here.
The biggest evil here has to be a personnel guy that doesn't even know who Khalil Mack is any more than he knows who Justin Gilbert is. He's had 4 first round picks in just 2 years with only 1 of them looking like he can eventually justify the draft value.
Here's some things I'd like to know about Farmer since he's responsible for our personnel:
Who does he have working for him in the scouting dept?
How much does he weigh their time, energy and research?
Does he have enough scouts since 7 of 12 darftees came from 1 conference?
Does he know the difference between best football ahead vrs best football in the rear view mirror (ie; Dwayne Bowe)?
Here's some things I'd like to know about Farmer since he's responsible for our personnel:
Who does he have working for him in the scouting dept?
How much does he weigh their time, energy and research?
Does he have enough scouts since 7 of 12 darftees came from 1 conference?
Does he know the difference between best football ahead vrs best football in the rear view mirror (ie; Dwayne Bowe)?
Another thing about our "scouting" dept that never gets mentioned......is the PRO scouting dept....
Yep.....all of the discussion centers around our college scouts and preparing for the draft.....but guess what???...
We have PRO scouts whose job it is to prepare pro reports for our coaches each week...so they can game plan....
(I hope no one thinks Pettine and Oneill are actually watching all the game tapes of next weeks opponent and scouting the opponents on their own)......
Nope....Pro scouts watch and prepare condensed scouting reports that the coaches use to get ready....and the coaches coach
A glaring example of where they hurt us would be the first Pittsburg game, where Wilbert Montgomery and Pettine were ripped for not being aware of some changes to Pittsburgs run defense....and we only gained 15 yards or so in that game.....and, man, did they get ripped for not knowing and not being prepared...
People were shocked....like how can ANY pro coach NOT know what kind of defense the opposing team uses...????
But....guess what?.....thats on the scouting dept and the info they brought to our coaches.....not Montgomery or Pettine...
So....who's to say this hasnt happened a lot?.....or that we just dont have a room full of lousy scouts, who cant rate college players OR analyze opposing teams?
An organization runs deep.....way deeper than the 4 guys everyone mentions all the time....GM, HC, OC, DC.....and the 50 other coaches and scouts have a huge influence on everything that happens too......and a new organization is not gonna be able to fill all those 50 jobs with 50 good people right out of the gate.....it takes years....
And if you start fresh every 2 years....it'll never be right....
So....along with finding a quality GM & quality HC....they will also have to find and hire 3 quality coordinators......20+ quality position coaches......a training and fitness staff......and about 30 quality pro & college scouts and administrators....
But....Im sure Haslem will nail it with all 50 of em.....(this time)......
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Here's some things I'd like to know about Farmer since he's responsible for our personnel:
Who does he have working for him in the scouting dept?
How much does he weigh their time, energy and research?
Does he have enough scouts since 7 of 12 darftees came from 1 conference?
Does he know the difference between best football ahead vrs best football in the rear view mirror (ie; Dwayne Bowe)?
Another thing about our "scouting" dept that never gets mentioned......is the PRO scouting dept....
Yep.....all of the discussion centers around our college scouts and preparing for the draft.....but guess what???...
We have PRO scouts whose job it is to prepare pro reports for our coaches each week...so they can game plan....
(I hope no one thinks Pettine and Oneill are actually watching all the game tapes of next weeks opponent and scouting the opponents on their own)......
Nope....Pro scouts watch and prepare condensed scouting reports that the coaches use to get ready....and the coaches coach
A glaring example of where they hurt us would be the first Pittsburg game, where Wilbert Montgomery and Pettine were ripped for not being aware of some changes to Pittsburgs run defense....and we only gained 15 yards or so in that game.....and, man, did they get ripped for not knowing and not being prepared...
People were shocked....like how can ANY pro coach NOT know what kind of defense the opposing team uses...????
But....guess what?.....thats on the scouting dept and the info they brought to our coaches.....not Montgomery or Pettine...
So....who's to say this hasnt happened a lot?.....or that we just dont have a room full of lousy scouts, who cant rate college players OR analyze opposing teams?
An organization runs deep.....way deeper than the 4 guys everyone mentions all the time....GM, HC, OC, DC.....and the 50 other coaches and scouts have a huge influence on everything that happens too......and a new organization is not gonna be able to fill all those 50 jobs with 50 good people right out of the gate.....it takes years....
And if you start fresh every 2 years....it'll never be right....
So....along with finding a quality GM & quality HC....they will also have to find and hire 3 quality coordinators......20+ quality position coaches......a training and fitness staff......and about 30 quality pro & college scouts and administrators....
But....Im sure Haslem will nail it with all 50 of em.....(this time)......
From what I've read, neither Farmer or anyone from the Browns scouting dept made contact with Justin Gilbert until after he was drafted. Somebody is not doing their due diligence in the FO.Another thing about our "scouting" dept that never gets mentioned......is the PRO scouting dept....
Yep.....all of the discussion centers around our college scouts and preparing for the draft.....but guess what???...
We have PRO scouts whose job it is to prepare pro reports for our coaches each week...so they can game plan....
(I hope no one thinks Pettine and Oneill are actually watching all the game tapes of next weeks opponent and scouting the opponents on their own)......
Nope....Pro scouts watch and prepare condensed scouting reports that the coaches use to get ready....and the coaches coach
A glaring example of where they hurt us would be the first Pittsburg game, where Wilbert Montgomery and Pettine were ripped for not being aware of some changes to Pittsburgs run defense....and we only gained 15 yards or so in that game.....and, man, did they get ripped for not knowing and not being prepared...
People were shocked....like how can ANY pro coach NOT know what kind of defense the opposing team uses...????
But....guess what?.....thats on the scouting dept and the info they brought to our coaches.....not Montgomery or Pettine...
So....who's to say this hasnt happened a lot?.....or that we just dont have a room full of lousy scouts, who cant rate college players OR analyze opposing teams?
An organization runs deep.....way deeper than the 4 guys everyone mentions all the time....GM, HC, OC, DC.....and the 50 other coaches and scouts have a huge influence on everything that happens too......and a new organization is not gonna be able to fill all those 50 jobs with 50 good people right out of the gate.....it takes years....
And if you start fresh every 2 years....it'll never be right....
So....along with finding a quality GM & quality HC....they will also have to find and hire 3 quality coordinators......20+ quality position coaches......a training and fitness staff......and about 30 quality pro & college scouts and administrators....
But....Im sure Haslem will nail it with all 50 of em.....(this time)......
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