Camp Goff
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What is "small"? Aaron Rogers' 9.38"?
https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7f43c74419945a51196a4e945554c3b2?convert_to_webp=true
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Manziel has big hands. DA was tall. So fucking what.
"You planning on having a long relationship with that glass or are you going to drink it? Drink up, man. Maybe we can get another.” - Janis Joplin, 1970. -
Yes, less room... also much less distance to perfection.
Goff can work progressions faster and improve defense recognition. He can also get stronger... including his arm. And the chances he will do all three seem increased by his past growth in all three areas.
The height difference is 1.1" last I checked, but only a couple days until the Combine measurements are out. But even if 2" the impact of that and 20 pounds on a ceiling is minimal compared to mechanics and mental acuity.
Shooting for perfection is the surest way to fail. Neither of these guys will be perfect, especially because there is no such thing as a perfect NFL QB.Yes, less room... also much less distance to perfection.
Goff can work progressions faster and improve defense recognition. He can also get stronger... including his arm. And the chances he will do all three seem increased by his past growth in all three areas.
The height difference is 1.1" last I checked, but only a couple days until the Combine measurements are out. But even if 2" the impact of that and 20 pounds on a ceiling is minimal compared to mechanics and mental acuity.
Increased "late stage" arm strength is more a refinement of technique than strength. Goff already plants his foot and drives through most of throws decently well, I wouldn't expect there to be any noticeable difference in arm strength throughout his career. Not that he is lacking in strength, per se. Just behind Wentz.
Once again, we say "mechanics" and "mental acuity" like Wentz is some mouth breathing schlub from Podunk. He's a 4.0 student who performed admirably in a national championship game against an unknown opponent after sitting out half a year - if that doesn't speak to "mental acuity", I'm not sure anything does.
Further, his mechanics aren't bad in the least. A rather quick release more often than not, strong release point, wide base, drives his throws - his mechanics aren't the issue. Just because they aren't Goff-level doesn't make them bad. I'd say he's more mechanically sound than Mariota and Bortles were over the last few drafts - both of them were "traits" guys.
His issue is one issue only - lack of experience. Lack of experience against top competition (which matters zilch to me) and lack of experience reading defenses. That's it in its entirety. He didn't make full field reads, as noted by his lack of LTR progressions. However, the fallacy of "locking on" to his primary is overblown. Is he guilty of it, sure. But it's not nearly as big of an issue as its being made to be, given that we can't know for certain how often that actually is the case due to above average reliance on triangle reads in that system.
Literally every scouting report, from Joe Schmo to Bucky Brooks to Mike Mayock, says something along the lines of "day one starter, no. Future franchise QB, likely". Have we as Browns fans become so starved for a QB that we're willing to overlook a guy who checks EVERY SINGLE BOX WEVE BEEN ASKING FOR OVER THE PAST 10 YEARS just because he's not a day one starter?
If so, that's just unfathomable to me.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Manziel has big hands. DA was tall. So fucking what.
Manziel has big hands. DA was tall. So fucking what.
Troy Aikman has big hands. Peyton Manning was tall. so fucking what.
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I mean it depends on what they mean by small. Bridgewater has 9" hands.
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Personally I think his rationale sucks. For one, it ignores the existence of McCown. For another, he makes a significant leap when he assumes Wentz can ascend to the heights Goff has already achieved let alone those Luck has. Lastly, he does not allow for the further development of the guy he knows has shown the capability to develop.
I like Mayock, but this smacks of CYA... and I'm not used to getting that from Mayock. Very disappointing...
I don't follow all of this as close as a lot of you but I heard another NFL network guy last week talking draft and he basically ignored McCown as well essentially saying the Browns need a QB who can start from day 1 and I don't quite understand that. McCown played just fine last year. No he's not a long term answer and he's not Tom Brady but he doesn't suck. Hell, he'd probably rank in the top 5 easy of QB's we've had since 1999.
I don't follow all of this as close as a lot of you but I heard another NFL network guy last week talking draft and he basically ignored McCown as well essentially saying the Browns need a QB who can start from day 1 and I don't quite understand that. McCown played just fine last year. No he's not a long term answer and he's not Tom Brady but he doesn't suck. Hell, he'd probably rank in the top 5 easy of QB's we've had since 1999.
I think they may be considering that McCown takes an absolute beating from bad blocking or holding on to the ball too long. So the rookie could be thrown in pretty early.
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Shooting for perfection is the surest way to fail. Neither of these guys will be perfect, especially because there is no such thing as a perfect NFL QB.Yes, less room... also much less distance to perfection.
Goff can work progressions faster and improve defense recognition. He can also get stronger... including his arm. And the chances he will do all three seem increased by his past growth in all three areas.
The height difference is 1.1" last I checked, but only a couple days until the Combine measurements are out. But even if 2" the impact of that and 20 pounds on a ceiling is minimal compared to mechanics and mental acuity.
Increased "late stage" arm strength is more a refinement of technique than strength. Goff already plants his foot and drives through most of throws decently well, I wouldn't expect there to be any noticeable difference in arm strength throughout his career. Not that he is lacking in strength, per se. Just behind Wentz.
Once again, we say "mechanics" and "mental acuity" like Wentz is some mouth breathing schlub from Podunk. He's a 4.0 student who performed admirably in a national championship game against an unknown opponent after sitting out half a year - if that doesn't speak to "mental acuity", I'm not sure anything does.
Further, his mechanics aren't bad in the least. A rather quick release more often than not, strong release point, wide base, drives his throws - his mechanics aren't the issue. Just because they aren't Goff-level doesn't make them bad. I'd say he's more mechanically sound than Mariota and Bortles were over the last few drafts - both of them were "traits" guys.
His issue is one issue only - lack of experience. Lack of experience against top competition (which matters zilch to me) and lack of experience reading defenses. That's it in its entirety. He didn't make full field reads, as noted by his lack of LTR progressions. However, the fallacy of "locking on" to his primary is overblown. Is he guilty of it, sure. But it's not nearly as big of an issue as its being made to be, given that we can't know for certain how often that actually is the case due to above average reliance on triangle reads in that system.
Literally every scouting report, from Joe Schmo to Bucky Brooks to Mike Mayock, says something along the lines of "day one starter, no. Future franchise QB, likely". Have we as Browns fans become so starved for a QB that we're willing to overlook a guy who checks EVERY SINGLE BOX WEVE BEEN ASKING FOR OVER THE PAST 10 YEARS just because he's not a day one starter?
If so, that's just unfathomable to me.
Literally every scouting report, from Joe Schmo to Bucky Brooks to Mike Mayock, says something along the lines of "day one starter, no. Future franchise QB, likely". Have we as Browns fans become so starved for a QB that we're willing to overlook a guy who checks EVERY SINGLE BOX WEVE BEEN ASKING FOR OVER THE PAST 10 YEARS just because he's not a day one starter?
If so, that's just unfathomable to me.
Not every single box... As you yourself said, "Goff throws with anticipation. It's his greatest asset." Are you now saying Wentz checks that box??? the big boy box???
For me there is simply not enough difference in their ceilings to justify risking the difference between their floors. And when I say that, I do not concede that Wentz's ceiling is higher.
"Likely franchise" QB? I see franchise grade as a lock with Goff... that's his floor.
As for the whole "perfection" bit... that was with a nod and a wink... but it never hurts to be closer to it...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Well.. we got Kiper in a close one... at least for this week.
Headline says "coin-flip", Mel's mock sent Wentz to us, but in the article...
"Goff's the better passer,'' he said. "Wentz has mobility but Goff can move around in the pocket. Certainly for Goff, if he was a little bigger right now than he is in terms of the weight, I don't think there'd be any question he'd be the first quarterback taken. And I still have Goff rating-wise ahead of Carson Wentz.''
Interesting quotes at the end of that article Tour.
Kiper raised the possibility that the Browns pick another position at No. 2 and take a quarterback with their No. 32 overall pick.
"Do they even pass on both of them and take say (Florida State cornerback) Jalen Ramsey to help that secondary and then look to the quarterback in the early second round?'' he said. "It happened in Cincinnati with A.J. Green and Andy Dalton. Happened in Oakland with Khalil Mack and then Derek Carr. Happened in San Diego with LaDainain Tomlinson and Drew Brees. So teams have worked that formula effectively on three different occasions. So maybe they could take another player like Ramsey and then get the quarterback early second, gamble that Lynch would be there.
"Maybe they like Connor Cook from Michigan State. Maybe they like (Penn State's Christian) Hackenberg. Maybe they like (Mississippi State's Dak) Prescott. (Maybe there's) somebody else that Hue Jackson feels 'hey I can get one of those three guys in the second round, I don't need to take a quarterback at two,' So we'll see.''
"Do they even pass on both of them and take say (Florida State cornerback) Jalen Ramsey to help that secondary and then look to the quarterback in the early second round?'' he said. "It happened in Cincinnati with A.J. Green and Andy Dalton. Happened in Oakland with Khalil Mack and then Derek Carr. Happened in San Diego with LaDainain Tomlinson and Drew Brees.
Ha!.....he forgot to mention it's happened here too(thrice actually).......Gilbert then Manziel.....Richardson then Weeden.....Thomas then Quinn....
If you want....you can add Colt McCoy and Charlie Frye to the mix......and thats 5 times in 10 years that we picked a QB in the early rounds.....but not as a first priority.....
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"Do they even pass on both of them and take say (Florida State cornerback) Jalen Ramsey to help that secondary and then look to the quarterback in the early second round?'' he said. "It happened in Cincinnati with A.J. Green and Andy Dalton. Happened in Oakland with Khalil Mack and then Derek Carr. Happened in San Diego with LaDainain Tomlinson and Drew Brees.
Ha!.....he forgot to mention it's happened here too(thrice actually).......Gilbert then Manziel.....Richardson then Weeden.....Thomas then Quinn....
If you want....you can add Colt McCoy and Charlie Frye to the mix......and thats 5 times in 10 years that we picked a QB in the early rounds.....but not as a first priority.....
Ha!.....he forgot to mention it's happened here too(thrice actually).......Gilbert then Manziel.....Richardson then Weeden.....Thomas then Quinn....
Something something colt mccoy?
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Literally every scouting report, from Joe Schmo to Bucky Brooks to Mike Mayock, says something along the lines of "day one starter, no. Future franchise QB, likely". Have we as Browns fans become so starved for a QB that we're willing to overlook a guy who checks EVERY SINGLE BOX WEVE BEEN ASKING FOR OVER THE PAST 10 YEARS just because he's not a day one starter?
If so, that's just unfathomable to me.
Not every single box... As you yourself said, "Goff throws with anticipation. It's his greatest asset." Are you now saying Wentz checks that box??? the big boy box???
For me there is simply not enough difference in their ceilings to justify risking the difference between their floors. And when I say that, I do not concede that Wentz's ceiling is higher.
"Likely franchise" QB? I see franchise grade as a lock with Goff... that's his floor.
As for the whole "perfection" bit... that was with a nod and a wink... but it never hurts to be closer to it...
Not every single box... As you yourself said, "Goff throws with anticipation. It's his greatest asset." Are you now saying Wentz checks that box??? the big boy box???
For me there is simply not enough difference in their ceilings to justify risking the difference between their floors. And when I say that, I do not concede that Wentz's ceiling is higher.
"Likely franchise" QB? I see franchise grade as a lock with Goff... that's his floor.
As for the whole "perfection" bit... that was with a nod and a wink... but it never hurts to be closer to it...
Right. However, anticipation comes with trust and trust comes with time. Wentz can very easily learn to throw with anticipation as he progresses...I anticipate that he will.
I look at it the Dave Gettleman (formerly Bill Polian) way - I'm not drafting you for who you are now. I'm drafting you for who you are two years from now.
So in two years you've got a 6'6", 245 lb. athletic QB with a very live arm who throws with anticipation and is a legitimate threat in every zone of the game, including running...and you've got a 6'4" 220 lb. technician who has an above average, not great, arm and above average, not great, athleticism who throws with anticipation and is a legitimate threat through the air, not so much on the ground. In two years you have a Ben Roethlisberger and a Matt Ryan.
It's really six of one, half dozen of the other.
Browns fans are so wary of taking a traits guy because of the likes of Brady Quinn, Brandon Weeden and Johnny Manziel that they are basically looking a gift horse in the mouth here. Either way, we're likely getting a good QB, better than anything we've seen in 20 years in Cleveland. It's a matter of preference of the style of QB you'd like plus what you want the game plan to be for the next two years.
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something something something dark side
Glad someone else is on the same page once in a while.
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I think the "athleticism gap" is over estimated (and the Combine numbers will show it) and Wentz's resume is simply too thin...
Plus have I mentioned recently that I don't like running QBs?
No bridging this gap, TC, but as usual, it was interesting trying....
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
How about hand size.....cause yesterday Hue stressed that it's really important in the cold weather.....then today, Goffs hands measured "too small"....
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How about hand size.....cause yesterday Hue stressed that it's really important in the cold weather.....then today, Goffs hands measured "too small"....
How about hand size.....cause yesterday Hue stressed that it's really important in the cold weather.....then today, Goffs hands measured "too small"....
And yet Hue won't even talk to his diminutive QB with the 10" hands.
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6'4, 215, 9" hands were his official measurements I believe.
Derek Carr and Bilgewater had 9" hands, Manziel closer to 10".
He'll be fine - as soon as Hue meets him he'll be sold.
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How about hand size.....cause yesterday Hue stressed that it's really important in the cold weather.....then today, Goffs hands measured "too small"....
And yet Hue won't even talk to his diminutive QB with the 10" hands.
And yet Hue won't even talk to his diminutive QB with the 10" hands.
Word is....He doesnt return calls....
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